Flesh To Stone - Healing Spell?

[Keinnicht]

So, I had an idea occur to me the other day, and was curious to know how other people would rule it. Basically, it consists of using flesh to stone and stone to flesh as healing spells. Here's how:

-Flesh to Stone, as far as I can tell, is generally assumed to turn the person into solid stone. There are no stone organs within the stone body or anything like that.

-Therefore, presumably, Stone to Flesh restores the organs based on a "map" of where they should be, using whatever stone is attached to the person.


So, here's the idea. Someone sustains a mortal wound, but is not quite dead yet (-8 hit points or something.)

-Cast Flesh to Stone.
-Take some stone, use Profession (Sculptor) or Stone Shape to fill the wound.
-Cast Stone to Flesh.
-Stone that was used to fill the wound is used up to mend the wound in question.

Or, perhaps as an alternative if a Regenerate spell is not available and someone's lost a limb:

-Cast Flesh to Stone
-Take a rock, sculpt or magically shape it into the shape of the missing limb.
-Attach it to the petrified character where it should be.
-Cast Stone to Flesh.
-Character and stone leg turn into flesh-and-blood, leg is now functional

Personally I'm not really sure if this would work, and thus am looking for the opinions of others.

[Tvtyrant]

logically it might, but it is unsupported by RAW. The problem with using magic in an intelligent and creative way is that it loses what few restraints the game already puts it under.

[Eldan]

Actually, I even included a Flesh-to-Stone cosmetic surgeon in a campaign once. A dwarven Earth Dreamer (I think) with Flesh-to-Stone, Stone-to-Flesh and Stone Shape.

[Keinnicht]

logically it might, but it is unsupported by RAW. The problem with using magic in an intelligent and creative way is that it loses what few restraints the game already puts it under.

Is it specifically stated that it doesn't work anywhere in the RAW?

It also isn't really losing any restraints. It's just letting wizards/sorcerers do something they normally can't do, by spending significantly more time and effort. Sure, regenerate is a 7th level spell, but having to cast two sixth level spells, and have to get someone with a pretty high craft check to make a limb, isn't exactly breaking the game.

While I did include "magically shape" in the description for the regenerate move, I'm not sure you really can. Stone Shape explicitly says that it cannot produce fine detail.

[AmberVael]

Er...

Stone breaks. As a rigid material that cannot be combined back together in a manner similar to clay, you'd need something to hold it together- something... not stone. Something not stone that would continue to be not stone when stone to flesh was cast, which would be something of a problem.

Stone Shape might work better, but note that all of its wording refers to a singular piece or object of stone. Slapping more stone onto stone wouldn't necessarily be something the spell could do. And fine detail isn't possible anyway, so there is all too likely a chance that you'll screw something up.

[Draco Ignifer]

I can see three ways of resolving this. First, make it work how you're envisioning - the magic reconverts the person to flesh and converts the new stone into flesh which is now alive due to the connection to their life-force. The second is that the magic isn't fooled by the new stone or reshaped stone, and converts them based on their original composition In the case of adding in new stone, this would result in a person with inert meat strapped to their body. In the case of stone shape... It would probably require a resurrection and psychotherapy for any observers. The last would be that it uses the target of "creature" as literal, and turns them into a wounded person with stone patches. Not sure how that would interact with stone sculpt.

I'd recommend one of the latter two options myself. It's creative, to be sure, but it adds in substantial versatility that you will then have to deal with. What if they try to use it to add wings, extra arms, bone spurs, etc.? What happens if someone creates a stone sculpture of the Tarrasque and grafts their fighter to it? There has to be some limit.

[noparlpf]

As a rigid material that cannot be combined back together in a manner similar to clay

So we need to make the statue into clay to fix it.

1. Flesh to Stone
2. Create a cast around the statue
3. Stone to mud
4. Add a bit to make up for what's missing
5. Mud to Stone
6. Stone to Flesh

This totally makes sense, right?

Were there rules for if you cast Stone to Flesh on a statue that hadn't ever been a living creature before?

[CommodoreCrunch]

Were there rules for if you cast Stone to Flesh on a statue that hadn't ever been a living creature before? Mundane stone subject to the spell becomes a lifeless mass of flesh. In the case of a statue, a corpse. In the case of a stone golem, a flesh golem. Stone has no lifeforce, or soul, so the spell does what it says on the box, but it can't create life. However, the spell does seem to imply that you can provide a lifeforce through other means.

Hmmm. If a statue becomes a corpse, can said corpse later be used for Raise Dead or similar spells that require a body to revive the deceased?

[noparlpf]

So would this idea even work anyway? If you craft a replacement bit for the now-statue of your buddy, and then turn them back, wouldn't the new bit (if it even turned into flesh; wouldn't it count as a separate object and require a second casting anyway?) just be some random fleshy stuff?
With Stone Shape you might be able to heal wounds, but it probably couldn't stand in for Regenerate due to the "no fine details" clause.

[CommodoreCrunch]

With Stone Shape you might be able to heal wounds, but it probably couldn't stand in for Regenerate due to the "no fine details" clause. This begs the question of whether one could stone shape a rough approximation of an arm, then use Craft or Profession to sculpt finer details into it so that it would work with StF?

[lord pringle]

Wouldn't the added arm be cancerous?

[Hirax]

There's a better combo that's unambiguously RAW legal. Stone body (SpC) turns you into living stone and makes it so transmute mud to rock instantly heals all of your hit points. Stone body is dismissible if you don't want it to continue.

[Anxe]

It doesn't work by RAW. If my players attempted this for wounds I would rule that you just turned the cut into a bruise. I don't think the spell has a "map" for organs. It just turns you back to what you were before. The new flesh you added would still be injured as before, only a different way.

As far the limb thing... Depending on if it was cinematically appropriate I would allow it. If I didn't allow it I would say that the leg was just flesh and contained no bones. I think that's already been said.

[Taelas]

Where do you get the idea that it turns it into solid stone? This is not at all supported by the spell (which makes it clear that characters turned to stone aren't dead).

They most likely do have "stone organs"; it's just not really possible to see them.

[noparlpf]

Where do you get the idea that it turns it into solid stone? This is not at all supported by the spell (which makes it clear that characters turned to stone aren't dead).

They most likely do have "stone organs"; it's just not really possible to see them.

Well, why would different sorts of flesh be different sorts of stone?

[Necroticplague]

Well, why would different sorts of flesh be different sorts of stone?

For the same reason different parts of wood make different types/frequency of petrified wood?

[Taelas]

The human body isn't a solid lump of flesh, y'know.

Anyway, since stone to flesh turns statues into corpses, my point seems to be moot.

The issue, then, is how to "add" the stone to the person so you don't have a seam.

[molten_dragon]

Okay, what about this.

PC gets an arm cut off. We want to reattach it.

Flesh to stone on PC and on arm.
Transmute rock to mud on statue and on arm.
Stick arm to statue.
Transmute mud to rock on completed statue.
Stone to flesh.
PC now has his arm back.

[Necroticplague]

Okay, what about this.

PC gets an arm cut off. We want to reattach it.

Flesh to stone on PC and on arm.
Transmute rock to mud on statue and on arm.
Stick arm to statue.
Transmute mud to rock on completed statue.
Stone to flesh.
PC now has his arm back.

If the spell turns them to mud, wouldn't they be a puddle on the ground? That plan just ends up with a large jumble of living-but unsustainable parts (and a good picture for a metal album cover).

[Venger]

The human body isn't a solid lump of flesh, y'know.

Anyway, since stone to flesh turns statues into corpses, my point seems to be moot.

The issue, then, is how to "add" the stone to the person so you don't have a seam.

While this is true on earth, it's somewhat debatable in the D&D world

with a system including abstract HP, you can get torn down to 1 with nothing tangibly wrong with you since d20 doesn't use a wounds system and you can't get your limbs hacked off by enemies (since there are no rules to do it except with hydras)

so it's not like you can say "that orc's falchion did a number on your pancreas" just "you're down a couple hp, sleep it off"

do D&D humans (and other races) have organs? while it's mentioned in the odd spell here and there (requiring hearts and brains mostly) it doesn't serve much mechanical purpose.

not that I'm seriously suggesting this, it's just funny to explore the implications of an abstract HP system

as far as stone shape/flesh to stone/etc for healing goes, I don't see anything wrong with that. find someone who can sculpt it properly and your friend should be good as new. there's nothing in the RAW against it and when you cast stone to flesh, they're restored as they were in stone with missing limbs still missing, so restored limbs should still be restored

[Taelas]

Transmute rock to mud transforms rock to mud. Not clay, mud. Mud is mostly liquid; it does not have the consistency to hold a statue together. He would turn into a puddle.

Also, the statue wouldn't be a valid target, anyway. It only affects "natural, uncut or unworked" rock.

[Necroticplague]

Transmute rock to mud transforms rock to mud. Not clay, mud. Mud is mostly liquid; it does not have the consistency to hold a statue together. He would turn into a puddle.

Also, the statue wouldn't be a valid target, anyway. It only affects "natural, uncut or unworked" rock.

While I agree with you on the puddle part, I disagree on the target issue. Since it uses the or statement, the target only has to meet one of these requirements. Since it hasn't been cut, it satisfies the requirements.

[Taelas]

While I agree with you on the puddle part, I disagree on the target issue. Since it uses the or statement, the target only has to meet one of these requirements. Since it hasn't been cut, it satisfies the requirements.

... no, that doesn't make any sense.

It affects only natural rock which is uncut or unworked. Not "natural, or uncut, or unworked" -- otherwise, it would work on everything, as all rock is natural.

[Necroticplague]

... no, that doesn't make any sense.

It affects only natural rock which is uncut or unworked. Not "natural, or uncut, or unworked" -- otherwise, it would work on everything, as all rock is natural.

Its use of "or" means those requirements are separate conditions,with the only one applying to all targets is "stone". As a counterpoint to "All stone is natural": conjuration:creation and possibly transmutation (which is in this case highly relevant).

[Taelas]

The spell specifies that buildings are not viable targets, being worked or cut natural rock.

[jiriku]

It also isn't really losing any restraints.

I'd just like to point out that you've invented the entire discipline of plastic surgery, at a level well below polymorph any object. So, yes, you are in fact removing restraints.

That said, several people have correctly pointed out that stone shape isn't precise enough to do the job. However, this issue can easily be addressed by using fabricate and a Craft (sculpting) check instead.

[Slipperychicken]

The additional rock was not targeted by the spell, and thus wouldn't turn into flesh with the character. I'd rule that the character would come back to normal with a bunch of rock in his wound. Even if the additional rock was affected, the spell only mentions "damages or deformities" sticking with the target. So unless you rule being healed as a deformity, that's not happening. And even if you did rule it that way, you added a disgusting blob of generic fleshy stuff, not discernible organs, veins, skin, etc. So the target's immune system would reject it, and it wouldn't be connected to any existing organ systems, and it would be totally nasty.


tl;dr: It doesn't work, and even if it did, the targets immune system would reject the new flesh.