So, negative levels and energy drain, anyone have houserules in regards to them?

[Coidzor]

This just came up in response to fell drain metamagic in my group.

Specifically wondering if anyone had come up with a more or less fair-ish save DC progression for them, but also in general.

[Waker]

Saves for energy drain? Well depending on the nature of the delivery it could come down to something like (10 + 1/2HD + Cha) or if the drain is delivered through a spell (10 + Spell Lvl + Casting Stat).

Meant to also include that both would be Will saves.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Saves for energy drain? Well depending on the nature of the delivery it could come down to something like (10 + 1/2HD + Cha) or if the drain is delivered through a spell (10 + Spell Lvl + Casting Stat).

Meant to also include that both would be Will saves.

Could you explain why it be Will saves? I may be remember incorrectly but natural NL-dealing monsters force fort saves. It sounds more natural to me.

[Waker]

Well, the source of the drain is negative energy which tends to target the soul more often than not (since you are targeting life force) which I connect with Will saves. Fortitude saves I associate with physical threats like poison, disease, stunning and so on.
If there is precedence for fortitude saves though, go with that. It's been awhile since I cracked open the monster manual.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Found the article on Energy Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) , it is a Fort save.

[Anxe]

One of my player's cohorts often dies in battle because he is lower level than them. They've been raising him and he's been constantly losing levels (grand total of 3) now. I've ruled that the effects of the negative levels are the exact same as those for temporary negative levels. You can find the description in the PHB glossary. Not sure if that answers the question you had about negative levels, but it might be relevant.

[Curmudgeon]

My house rule on this topic:

Bonus damage from the Factotum's Cunning Insight is negative energy damage when used with a spell or effect that deals negative levels or ability damage, making it consistent with the treatment of bonus damage from sneak attack when used with weaponlike spells.

[Greymane]

So, wait... If I Sneak Attack with Enervation, all the SA dice actually do their damage in Negative Levels?

[Fax Celestis]

So, wait... If I Sneak Attack with Enervation, all the SA dice actually do their damage in Negative Levels?

No. They add sneak attack damage in negative energy.

[Venger]

My DM lets you make a save against the same DC for a negative level inducing effect each day until you make it. if you make it, it's gone, if not, you keep the level for another 24 hours at which point you get to make the save again

it is implemented to avoid what you're having problems with, one party member getting screwed with negative levels but doesn't go too far in the other direction either (neg lvls = to HD still kill and they still drain HP and impose penalties)

we like it pretty well, especially when fighting vampires.

[Coidzor]

Well, the main issue is the bit where we had 3 characters almost wighted in 2 rounds, including my cleric who had only just recently gotten restoration at all, and who got jumped during exploration so I didn't have time to put up a deathward on myself, so less the getting rid of them afterward and more some manner of defense against getting them in the first place other than the binary, especially at low levels where restoration isn't available and there's not even the binary of "I laugh at you wasting your action" vs. "yay wights."

[Pilo]

I'm not sure to get your problem.

Fell drain feat is quite explicit: If the spell do hit point damages to a target, the target gain a negative level (only one per spell). They will disappear CL hours latter without save.
Unlike energy drain negative levels which require a fortitude save after 24 hours and become permanent level loss if the character fail his save.

If you want to avoid fell drain negative level, you can ready your action to counter the spell or prevent the dammages.

[Coidzor]

I'm not sure to get your problem.

Essentially, something like "holy ****, level 7 characters with maybe two 4th level spell slots for the non-specialists/sorcerers are screwed in a low-op environment if the person capable of casting restoration takes negative levels from any energy draining undead and the party can't run away to go lick its wounds."

Especially when the entire party is hit by fell drain from an additional source to the point where one character was almost level drained to death. In two rounds, because they were a level behind the rest of the party.

As in, there don't seem to be any defenses against level draining that don't require a higher level before they're either possible or practical for defending anyone but 1 character with deathward and all of those are complete and utter negation, and the DM noticed this in retrospect, and since they were all blargh over it I decided to poke the hornet's nest of the internet.


If you want to avoid fell drain negative level, you can ready your action to counter the spell or prevent the dammages.

Except for cases before your initiative count comes up during the surprise round. Or you can't counterspell because you're playing a glorified christmas tree.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Except for cases before your initiative count comes up during the surprise round. Or you can't counterspell because you're playing a glorified christmas tree.

New character concept: Maximized Empowered Awakened Blue Spruce Wizard. PrC's still to be determined.

[Tenno Seremel]

So, negative levels and energy drain, anyone have houserules in regards to them?
"Negative/positive levels do not exist." Well, I doubt that's what you wanted though (^ ^)

[Gullintanni]

Except for cases before your initiative count comes up during the surprise round. Or you can't counterspell because you're playing a glorified christmas tree.

This is why I like Divine Defiance + Church Inquistor + Spontaneous Domain ACF with the Magic Domain for Spontaneous Dispel Magic Counterspells as an immediate action with a +4 Uncapped bonus on the Dispel Check.

Great trick for guarding your players against No Save Just Die Spells.

Assuming you can't pull that off, well...I don't really have any houserules, but my players are crazy paranoid against undead they can't immediately identify. Energy Drain terrifies them...I suppose with good cause :smalltongue: