Playing with a Low Casting Ability Score

[Randrew]

Let's say, hypothetically, that I'm making a druid with a Wisdom score of 10 in order to fit in a party of unoptomized low-tier characters. How does my spell casting work now (besides not very well)?

What I know: I can only cast 0 Level spells. My higher spell slots are to be used for lower level spells.

What I do not: 3 Zero Level + 1 First Level = 4 Spells per day at level one. Would I be able to cast 4 Zero Level per day or merely prepare 4 and still only cast 3? How does this hold up at character level 20? Can I cast 47 0 Level spells per day or merely prepare 47 and cast 6?

Thank you!

[Yuki Akuma]

If you put 0-level spells in your 1st-level spell slots, you can cast them just fine. You still get the spell slots, you're just unable to put 1st-level spells in them.

[Randomguy]

You can't prepare or cast level 1 spells, but you can prepare level 0 spells in level 1 slots. So you can cast all of your spell slots, but you can only prepare level 0 spells in those slots.

[deuxhero]

Be warned your hypothetical druid still has a fighter as a class feature at level 4 and another at 6.

[grarrrg]

To prepare or cast a spell, a {class} must have a {casting stat} score equal to at least 10 + the spell level

You can prepare and cast as many level 0 spells you have the slots for, so long as you have at least 10 in {casting stat}.

[Randrew]

Thank you so much for the prompt and accurate responses!


Be warned your hypothetical druid still has a fighter as a class feature at level 4 and another at 6.
I am afraid that I don't understand what you mean by this.

[Taelas]

Animal companion and wild shape can both substitute for a Fighter.

[Lans]

I think the issue was with level 4&6, as druids gets the animal companion at level 1 and wildshape at level 5

[Taelas]

You replace whatever AC you have from level 1 with a Fleshraker at level 4, and you get Natural Spell at 6.

[molten_dragon]

I think you can even prepare metamagicked versions of your zero-level spells in higher level spell slots.

[molten_dragon]

You replace whatever AC you have from level 1 with a Fleshraker at level 4, and you get Natural Spell at 6.

If he doesn't have any spellcasting ability to speak of, natural spell is rather irrelevant.

[Taelas]

Unless he chooses to completely disregard his Wisdom score, he'll have casting capability.

He'll have 11 Wis at level 4, letting him cast 1st level spells (and, as was mentioned above by you yourself, he can use metamagic feats to improve them), and as soon as he can afford it, he should get a periapt of wisdom.

He'll be behind with spells for the first 8 levels or so, but afterwards, he should start catching up fast. He won't be stellar, but eh. 13 Wis with a +6 item and he can cast 9s.

[molten_dragon]

Unless he chooses to completely disregard his Wisdom score, he'll have casting capability.

He'll have 11 Wis at level 4, letting him cast 1st level spells (and, as was mentioned above by you yourself, he can use metamagic feats to improve them), and as soon as he can afford it, he should get a periapt of wisdom.

He'll be behind with spells for the first 8 levels or so, but afterwards, he should start catching up fast. He won't be stellar, but eh. 13 Wis with a +6 item and he can cast 9s.

Well he did specifically mention using a low wis to compensate for being in a party of unoptimized low-tier characters. Boosting his WIS so he can cast 9th level spells anyway seems to be kind of missing the point.

[Fouredged Sword]

There are a few abilities you can take that allow you to use higher level spell slots for useful things without spell casting per say. Spontaneous rejuvenation specifically.

A druidic avenger would get rage as a barbarian, or a shape shifter druid would get a few animal forms that do nice things.

You become a self healing tank with 3/4 bab and a few really nice class abilites. Tier three solidly, tier two with wildshape skill, tier one with cheeze (wildshape can get you all kinds of powers if you know what you are doing).

Also, with investment you can still get a 19 wiz. +5 from 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level and +3 from an item. Really you could get a +6 item and a +3 tomb and not spend any stat increases on wiz and get close.

[hex0]

Can you just play Spell-less Wildshape ranger instead?

[Taelas]

Well he did specifically mention using a low wis to compensate for being in a party of unoptimized low-tier characters. Boosting his WIS so he can cast 9th level spells anyway seems to be kind of missing the point.

The druid isn't really a good choice for it, even if you completely ignore his spellcasting ability.

I personally wouldn't be able to not improve my Wis score. Anything else would just be... wrong. :smalleek:

[deuxhero]

I think the issue was with level 4&6, as druids gets the animal companion at level 1 and wildshape at level 5

Nah, just a mistake.

[Human Paragon 3]

Why are you playing a non-casting druid? Just for the challenge?

Why don't you just play a ranger instead?

[Fax Celestis]

Can you just play Spell-less Wildshape ranger instead?

Yeah. Wildshape ranger + Champion of the Wild from Complete Champion gets you into about the same place, just with better BAB and without a non-useless class feature.

[Adrayll]

If you're not casting, focus on either your companion (there's a class in CA that ends you up with an extra three of the things), or your wildshaping (also CA, Master of Manyforms, and Warshaper (either CA or CW, can't recall))

[Randrew]

Not being a regular poster, I got distracted for a few days and forgot to check back! Sorry about that and thank you for the continued advise!

Of course, I could play a Spell-less Wildshape Ranger, but I'm mostly choosing Druid for flavor. Being a very role-play oriented group, some sessions pass without us ever needing to roll the dice. I also don't want to wait to get my animal companion (we're starting at level 1) and Wildshape Ranger has fewer options in terms of form. I've managed to roll a Wisdom of 10, so I'll still get the Orisons and will just need to be creative with them. That sounds like a fun challenge for me.

I am purposefully limiting myself. The only other player in the group with the system knowledge to build an effective character is likely building a Ranger (archery track). The remaining three will very probably construct only partially mechanically effective characters who are a delight to interact with in-character. While optimization may not matter as much in a role-play focused group, when the dice come out, the discrepancy becomes obvious. A self-nerfed druid in my hands will still be plenty powerful in this group.

[Coidzor]

You can't prepare or cast level 1 spells, but you can prepare level 0 spells in level 1 slots. So you can cast all of your spell slots, but you can only prepare level 0 spells in those slots.

You can do that without Heighten Spell? I thought that was one of the things they axed in the conversion between 3.0 and 3.5 :smallconfused:

Really though, if you're playing with unoptimized characters and do a hatchet job on your casting, you'd still have to nerf your animal companion and hold back on your own character itself as well. Seems superior to go with the GOD option of using spells so that the underoptimized characters can be allowed to contribute.

[Yuki Akuma]

You could always prepare spells in higher level slots, and this wasn't ever changed.

Relevant SRD citation:


Spell Slots
The character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day.

These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.