Need Help Statting a Ninja-y Character Idea

[Rhaegar14]

Hey Playground!

My imagination is once again swimming with an awesome character concept that will likely never see the light of play, that I'd like to have some help statting.

Now, I love my TWFers. Love love love them. But without Sneak Attack, they're generally not great. So when I saw the Daring Outlaw feat in Complete Scoundrel, I thought to myself "Hey, that would make a great TWF character."

I also realized that, with a half-decent Int score and the Able Learner feat on a Human Rogue 3/Swordsage 1 (preferably at CL 9)/Swashbuckler 16, you could essentially get most of the Rogue goodies (Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, UMD) on a d10 Hit Die and full BAB.

So then my brain started fluffing, and the fluff wandered a bit from the crunch. I'm looking for help reconciling the two.

The fluff I came up with was an assassin from the North, who was taken for training as an infant. As part of his initiation, he was touched by darkness (I was thinking of using the Dark Creature template for this) before becoming a full-fledged member of the brotherhood/clan/what-have-you. And he went on to spend years being a highly-skilled, ruthless killer before he had a change of heart (not sure why yet) and left his clan.

He never draws a weapon unless he plans to kill with it, and because of his bloody past he tries to avoid killing whenever possible. This necessitates Improved Unarmed Strike at the very least. The part where it gets tricky, however, is that I'd very much like to see him use a single katana... which, since the crunch usually defines it as a bastard sword, does not synergize with Weapon Finesse or Shadow Blade. And, were he to use a single katana with an empty off-hand, unless he could make Unarmed Strikes as part of a TWF full attack, it would frankly not even work with the original statistical idea.

So, Playground... thoughts?

[Malachei]

Couldn't you just re-flavor the short sword into a curved, smaller katana? Perhaps your DM would agree to this rather than spend half a day looking for an obscure combination that would allow this.

EWP is not balanced, anyway: Mechanically, I don't see that much sense in taking EWP Katana, when there's Spiked Chain to have.

[limejuicepowder]

There already is a "katana shortsword," it's called a wakizashi and it's in the DMG. It was used as a secondary weapon by samurai, but it's entirely reasonable to think ninja would use them too. I don't know if this is actually true or just modern stories, but I read somewhere that ninja would sometimes use shorter swords, but keep them in a full sized sheath - they could then draw the sword faster then the enemy would expect, getting in early strikes.

If you get quick draw you could TWF with a sword and ranged attacks, like shuriken and the like - kicks and punches at close range of course, but could also unleash a barrage of knives, darts, and throwing stars when the situation calls for it. I think that is pretty ninja-y.

[Darrin]

The part where it gets tricky, however, is that I'd very much like to see him use a single katana... which, since the crunch usually defines it as a bastard sword, does not synergize with Weapon Finesse or Shadow Blade.


Can he get his hands on an unawaked/lesser sunsword +1 (3000 GP, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p. 210)? That can be wielded by anyone who can wield a shortsword. (There's some nitpicky RAW issues, though... the legacy/awakened version can be wielded *as a short sword*, and thus counts for Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade. The lesser version only grants proficiency to those already proficient with shortswords, but is still wielded as if it were a bastard sword.)

Feycraft bastard sword might also be worth a look... which solves the Weapon Finesse problem but not the Shadow Blade problem (unless you can get the Aptitude property). This still requires EWP, but you get roughly the same stats as a longsword: 1d8 damage, 19-20/x2 on crits.

Hmm... how about give him a daisho set, and he uses the wakizashi for pretty much everything, but he's not allowed to draw the katana for fluff reasons, and gets really touchy if people ask about it: "Do not speak of this sword, for not even I have earned the honor to speak its name. It can only be drawn to drink the blood of the Gods, when the Four Sacred Mountains have been shattered and the sundered sky weeps for the Widow of Heaven."



And, were he to use a single katana with an empty off-hand, unless he could make Unarmed Strikes as part of a TWF full attack, it would frankly not even work with the original statistical idea.


He can use a katana two-handed and still make unarmed strikes as an off-hand attack. Check the PHB p. 139: "Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on)." Unarmed strikes can be made with any part of the body: elbows, knees, head-butts, etc. Even if both hands are occupied, you can still make unarmed attacks.

If you want to use a two-handed weapon + offhand unarmed strikes, then an Elven Courtblade would allow you to use Weapon Finesse as well. No Shadow Blade, though, unless it has the Aptitude property.

[Yuki Akuma]

A wakizashi is actually a real weapon, yes. Mostly ceremonial in 'real' history, but who cares about that?

Statistically, it's identical to a masterwork short sword that deals slashing damage instead of piercing.

[ILM]

Yup: make it a wakizashi as per rules, fluff it as having a longer blade than usual. Instant almost-katana!

[Malachei]

For more background:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakizashi

fluff > crunch. Meaning, IMO, a character should be have the weapon of choice fluff-wise, and not be punished crunch-wise.

[Yuki Akuma]

fluff > crunch.

Sure, if you like.

But the fluff in a fictional game world doesn't have to perfectly replicate real world history. Otherwise, what would a freaking ninja be doing outside Japan?

[Malachei]

Sure, if you like.

But the fluff in a fictional game world doesn't have to perfectly replicate real world history. Otherwise, what would a freaking ninja be doing outside Japan?

Oh, sorry. I didn't mean all the time, and I didn't mean real-world fluff. It's a fantasy game, after all. I meant that I prefer solid in-character reasoning to a solid out-of-character reasoning. Both have their place, of course. But I'll let every player re-flavor every weapon unless it creates an unfair mechanical advantages (which it shouldn't, as it should just be flavor).

[Tokuhara]

As an unofficial expert on Feudal Japan's history, I have to correct you guys:

The wakizashi was a back-up weapon weilded by the samurai for areas where either it was impractical or disallowed to weild a Katana (such as in a bar or a close-quarters area). Instead, they would carry a shorter sword that they could carry and draw in a much tighter area. These blades were considered "sister blades" to their primary weapon, and used primarily in Self-Defense.

However, the shinobi/kunoichi did not carry these weapons, since the serfs could not carry "weapons," hence the birth of the Kama, Bo, and other "farm impliments" as weapons. The ninja did have a sword, though usually it was of a lesser quality: the Ninja-to. The blade was approximately the size of a wakizashi, but was weilded in a similar manner to a katana. The samurai would commonly weild a katana in a vertical position, to allow for greater defense, whereas the Ninja-to was often weilded in a forward position, to conceal the true length of the weapon. The samurai would misjudge the length of the blade and swing to lose to his body, and then the ninja would strike, using the recovery time the samurai needed to hit vital areas, such as the liver, throat, or lungs. Most of a ninja's fighting was done as a counterattack, using deception, stealth, and speed to circumvent the armor of the samurai. Blows to hinder mobility, strike unarmored portions of the body (mostly joints), and disarming techniques (usually with a jitte), followed by a swift execution and a hasty withdrawl.

So commonly, a Ninja would weild multiple weapons to circumvent the common weponry of a samurai (Naginata, Katana, Yumi), wear multiple layers of cloth padding, and remain as flexible as possible to heighten the avantage of their maneuverability versus their conversely well-armored opponents

[marcielle]

The awesome of that reply is only multiplied by your Kakashi avatar.

[Tokuhara]

The awesome of that reply is only multiplied by your Kakashi avatar.

When I get to my computer, I am adding that to my sigyy

[Z3ro]

As an unofficial expert on Feudal Japan's history, I have to correct you guys:

The ninja did have a sword, though usually it was of a lesser quality: the Ninja-to. The blade was approximately the size of a wakizashi, but was weilded in a similar manner to a katana. The samurai would commonly weild a katana in a vertical position, to allow for greater defense, whereas the Ninja-to was often weilded in a forward position, to conceal the true length of the weapon. The samurai would misjudge the length of the blade and swing to lose to his body, and then the ninja would strike, using the recovery time the samurai needed to hit vital areas, such as the liver, throat, or lungs. Most of a ninja's fighting was done as a counterattack, using deception, stealth, and speed to circumvent the armor of the samurai. Blows to hinder mobility, strike unarmored portions of the body (mostly joints), and disarming techniques (usually with a jitte), followed by a swift execution and a hasty withdrawl.


I normally wouldn't bother correcting someone when it came to ninja weapons, but as a self-proclaimed expert of the subject, you should strive to get it right. The ninjato is just a common myth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjat%C5%8D

[Tokuhara]

I normally wouldn't bother correcting someone when it came to ninja weapons, but as a self-proclaimed expert of the subject, you should strive to get it right. The ninjato is just a common myth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjat%C5%8D

Did you hear that? That was my self-esteem. You smashed it. If you need me, I'll be in the corner crying. SARCASM

[Yuki Akuma]

Plus the whole idea of ninjas fighting combat-trained samurai one on one is kinda... silly.

If you end up confronted by a samurai and don't run the hell away (and throw sharp metal things at his face while you do it), you've failed as a ninja. :smalltongue:

[MesiDoomstalker]

Plus the whole idea of ninjas fighting combat-trained samurai one on one is kinda... silly.

If you end up confronted by a samurai and don't run the hell away (and throw sharp metal things at his face while you do it), you've failed as a ninja. :smalltongue:

Ninja's were more spies of war than combantants, historically. Stealing military plans, troop distributions, etc. More for gaining a tatical edge than for assasination really.

EDIT: On topic: Shadowhand is the go-to ninja ToB school. Of course your taking a Swordsage dip in there.