Spellthief Needs Scrolls Badly

[sonofzeal]

I used my Random Character Generator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223175) for an upcoming game... and got a Neraphim Spellthief.

I've never played a Spellthief before, and I've never seen one played. I know they have a reputation for being weak though, so I went in with a grain of salt... and wow. I think I'm in love. Not that they're impossibly good, just that they're cool. I mean seriously, they get a tone of tricks, and massive style to boot. Then I looked at the spell progression, and sneak attack progression, and remembered the reputation.

Still, the RNG is always right, and I've still fallen in love with the class.



I want to flavour my Spellthief as a manipulator of raw magic, who treats it almost like a substance. As such, I've taken a few rather unusual build choices. The basic build is included below for completeness. If you have any advice, please don't hesitate.

Magic-Blooded Neraphim Spellthief 7, "Trickster" ACF

Worships Taiia (rolled randomly)

STATS (4d6 organic, can only reroll whole set, no exchanging)
Str 6
Dex 16+2item
Con 10
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 18+2item

FEATS
Craven
Good Karma (redirect spells to me)
Better Lucky Than Good (treat nat1 as nat20!)
Unbelievable Luck (+2 lowest save)
Arcane Disciple: Magic

5/day Detect Magic
1/day Magic Aura, Read Magic

SPELLS (rolled randomly, allowed rerolls until flavour-appropriate ones appeared)
1st
Weapon Shift (SC 237, touched weapon changes form)
Silent Image (SRD, 4+CL 10' cubes, Concentration)
Shieldbearer (SC 188, animate shield w/ no penallties)
Animate Rope (SRD, CL rounds, "coil", "knot", "loop", Ref save vs entangle, DC 23 str to break)
Magic Aura (SRD, CL days, Identify or better gets a Will save)

2nd
Locate Object (SRD, CL min, must visualize, 400+40*CL feet)
Tune of the Dancing Weapon (Dr #335 77, weapon gains "dancing" for 4 rounds)
Returning Weapon (RotW 175, weapon gainst "returning" for CL rounds)
Control Darkness and Shadow (CoRu, Concentration+CL rounds, close, CL 5' cubes)
Identify (SRD, takes 1 hour and 100 gp pearl)

3rd
Siphon (CSc pg103, drain 5 charges to restore spell)
Shadow Cache (MotPl 40, CL minutes of access each cast)
Dispel Magic (SRD, medium range, 20'-radius or targetted)


GEAR
+1 Chain Shirt
+1 Tower Shield
+1 Annulat
+2 Gloves of Dex
+2 Cloak of Cha
Handy Haversack
3x spell component pouches
3x holy symbols
5x 100 gp pearls
Everlasting Rations (350 gp)
Everburning Ioun Stone (125 gp)
Everfull Mug (200 gp)
Infinite Scrollcase (2800)


So the question is: With my ~1000 gp remaining, what scrolls should I buy for my Infinite Scrollcase?

Also: Are there any ways I've missed to increase my "magic-weaver" persona?

[sonofzeal]

Just went through Treantmonk's guides and the SpC, and here's my wishlist....



Lesser Vigor
Aura Against Flames (SpC, Resist Fire 10 and extinguish fires)
Backbiter (SpC)
Benign Transposition
Climb Walls
Comprehend Languages
Disguise Self
Ebon Eyes
Embrace the Wild (SpC, gain animal sences for CL*10 min)
Enlarge Person
Expeditious Retreat
Floating Disk
Grave Strike (SpC, can sneak-attack undead for 1 round)
Grease
Guided Shot (SC - swift, ignore cover/conceal)
Hoard Gullet (DrM)
Improvisation
Know Greatest Enemy (SpC 129, CL rounds, know strongest and general CR +/- 2 of the rest)
Lay of the Land (SpC 131, 50 miles, "good understanding")
Magic Missile
Net of Shadows
Omen of Peril (SpC)
Portal Beacon (SpC)
Protection from Evil
Ray of Clumsiness
Ray of Enfeeblement
Reduce Person
Resist Planar Alignment (SpC)
Scholar's Touch (RoD 169 - CL rounds, "read" all books touched)
Sniper's Shot (SpC 194 - swift, Sneak Attack at any range)
True Strike
Unseen Servant
Wall of Smoke (SpC)
Weildskill (+5 skillcheck or one proficiency)



.....which leaves me with the opposite problem. I can buy 40, and that's 34, but some I'd definitely want copies of. Any thoughts? Anything missed?

[sonofzeal]

Since nobody seems to be posting, I went ahead and did it myself. I decided heck with it, one of everything! Going through Artificer and Trapmaster helped me fill it out - assuming Artificer Infusions can be made into scrolls and UMD'd by other classes. Any word on that?

Anyway, here's the list, spoiler'd for length...

ATTACK
Backbiter (SpC)
Ray of Clumsiness
Ray of Enfeeblement
Grave Strike (SpC, can sneak-attack undead for 1 round)
Guided Shot (SC - swift, ignore cover/conceal)
Grease
Magic Missile
Sniper's Shot (SpC 194 - swift, Sneak Attack at any range)
True Strike
Net of Shadows (SpC 147, 1d6 rounds, CL creatures within 25', will save)



COMBAT BUFF
Aura Against Flames (SpC, CL rounds, Resist Fire 10 and extinguish fires)
Enlarge Person
Reduce Person
Protection from Evil
Know Greatest Enemy (SpC 129, CL rounds, know strongest and general CR +/- 2 of the rest)
Improvisation (SpC 121, CL rounds, CL*2 points, can spend CL/2 on any one roll)



UTILITY
Benign Transposition
Climb Walls
Comprehend Languages
Disguise Self
Ebon Eyes
Embrace the Wild (SpC, gain animal sences for CL*10 min)
Expeditious Retreat
Floating Disk
Lay of the Land (SpC 131, 50 miles, "good understanding")
Lesser Vigor
Omen of Peril (SpC)
- Portal Beacon (SpC)
Resist Planar Alignment (SpC)
Scholar's Touch (RoD 169 - CL rounds, "read" all books touched)
Unseen Servant
Weildskill (CL min, +10 skillcheck or one proficiency)
Energy Alteration (ECS, 10*CL min, change element of item [offensive or defensive])
Repair Light Damage
Indisputable Possession (MoE, CL*10 min, will save if someone is actively holding)
Arcane Sight (SRD)
Clairaudience (SRD)
Gaseous Form (SRD)
Haste (SRD)
Knock (SRD)


....but now I'm considering taking +1 off the Annulat, and getting a Cloak of Resistance to help fuel Absorb Spell instead. This would leave another spare 700 lying around, with the same problem all over again!

Perhaps a few spells of 2nd level?

Any suggestions?

[Tvtyrant]

I apologize for not seeing this earlier. My only real suggestions are Glitterdust (its a perennial favorite) and Ray of Stupidity. RoS will auto-defeat any animal hit with it (so dinosaurs, dires, etc), taking out a large chunk of the creatures in the manuals.

Also, you need some eternal wands if you are going utility. Scrolls are for emergencies, and if it is daily it is not an emergency.

[sonofzeal]

I apologize for not seeing this earlier. My only real suggestions are Glitterdust (its a perennial favorite) and Ray of Stupidity. RoS will auto-defeat any animal hit with it (so dinosaurs, dires, etc), taking out a large chunk of the creatures in the manuals.

Also, you need some eternal wands if you are going utility. Scrolls are for emergencies, and if it is daily it is not an emergency.
The line of logic went like this...

"Man, I hate expendable resources, I'll get daily stuff like Eternal Wands! ...wait, only two charges a day? It'd take 25 days of constant use to equal the capacity of a Wand, and they're more expensive! Plus I'll be schmuckered if I need a 3rd any of those day! I don't expect the campaign to go that long, and if it does I can replace one or two wands. Wands it is!

"Man, I only have enough gold for three wands. Touch choices. But wait, scrolls are how cheap?!? I could have 90 scrolls for the same price, and cover dozens and dozens of different situations! I'm pretty sure I'll never use all 50 charges of most wands anyway, so scrolls it is!"


...I admit "Infinite Scrollcase" was a bit of a bad choice at this level, given my available gold. I could have four wands, and have far more total magical power at my disposal. Still, I can always pick up new things as I adventure. Scrolls and Wands are easy to find, but the DM isn't familiar with MiC and it might be harder to get the Scrollcase unless I start with it. And I'm mostly just amused at the thought of being able to toss out forty different magical effects as-needed, I think it fits the guy.


Although... in hindsight... doesn't Handy Haversack do exactly what the Scrollcase does, anyway? Maybe I should forgo the Scrollcase entirely... hmmm.....

[Doc Roc]

I remember that weird realization, where basically I examined the costs of consumables versus the length of campaign and came up with the fact that it's worth it for certain character builds.

[sonofzeal]

So does a Handy Haversack make an Infinite Scrollcase obsolete?

And, can Artificer Infusions be added to scrolls and UMD'd?



And are there any other spells I should be acquiring, or which ones do you think are the top priority to get as wands?

[Randomguy]

I don't think true strike is particularly useful, since you'll be hitting often enough and it's not really worth spending resources on.

I wouldn't get any damage dealing spells, since you, unlike a sorcerer or wizard, have other ways of dealing damage.

I would get one or two scrolls of grave strike as well as golem strike (same thing, but lets you sneak attack constructs rather than undead), just in case you fight some of those. A scroll of ray of stupidity will also be useful to one shot kill a t-rex or other animal.
If you're going to be primarily using a bow, get snipers shot, but otherwise don't bother.
Neither reduce or enlarge person is worth it cast on you, since more of your damage will be sneak attack damage than weapon damage, and reduce person doesn't really offer all that much.
A few scrolls of improvisations would come in handy. 10, tops, for emergency use. If you just can't hit the enemy, improvisation would be better than true strike, and it'll be more useful, since a smaller bonus that lasts longer is probably more useful than a larger, one round bonus.

A few scrolls of haste and a few scrolls of knock will be useful, and maybe one scroll of lesser vigor if your cleric and all his healing scrolls go missing. One scroll of arcane sight, tops, and even then that's only if you have enough ranks in spellcraft to make it useful. Other than that, comprehend languages, disguise self, maybe a single scroll of scholar's touch, one or two of ebon eyes if you don't have a wizard or anyone with darkvision in the party, only one of lay of the land and a few of clairaudience seem like the only scrollworthy spells. I'm not sure about indisputable posession since I don't know what that does.

For wands, a debuffing or battlefield control spell will go best. I would put priority on either glitterdust, web or grease (Pick one) if you want battlefield control and ray of enfeeblement otherwise.

Improvisation seems like a much better choice than any other boosting spell, since it's much more versatile. For anything like spying, sneaking, hiding and escaping, remember that you're a spellthief and not a wizard: You can do it without magic.

If I were you, I'd swap out identify on your spells known for something else unless you're the only caster in the party. And even then, scrolls of identify might be better.

[sonofzeal]

I don't think true strike is particularly useful, since you'll be hitting often enough and it's not really worth spending resources on.

I wouldn't get any damage dealing spells, since you, unlike a sorcerer or wizard, have other ways of dealing damage.

I would get one or two scrolls of grave strike as well as golem strike (same thing, but lets you sneak attack constructs rather than undead), just in case you fight some of those. A scroll of ray of stupidity will also be useful to one shot kill a t-rex or other animal.
If you're going to be primarily using a bow, get snipers shot, but otherwise don't bother.
Neither reduce or enlarge person is worth it cast on you, since more of your damage will be sneak attack damage than weapon damage, and reduce person doesn't really offer all that much.
A few scrolls of improvisations would come in handy. 10, tops, for emergency use. If you just can't hit the enemy, improvisation would be better than true strike, and it'll be more useful, since a smaller bonus that lasts longer is probably more useful than a larger, one round bonus.

A few scrolls of haste and a few scrolls of knock will be useful, and maybe one scroll of lesser vigor if your cleric and all his healing scrolls go missing. One scroll of arcane sight, tops, and even then that's only if you have enough ranks in spellcraft to make it useful. Other than that, comprehend languages, disguise self, maybe a single scroll of scholar's touch, one or two of ebon eyes if you don't have a wizard or anyone with darkvision in the party, only one of lay of the land and a few of clairaudience seem like the only scrollworthy spells. I'm not sure about indisputable posession since I don't know what that does.

For wands, a debuffing or battlefield control spell will go best. I would put priority on either glitterdust, web or grease (Pick one) if you want battlefield control and ray of enfeeblement otherwise.

Improvisation seems like a much better choice than any other boosting spell, since it's much more versatile. For anything like spying, sneaking, hiding and escaping, remember that you're a spellthief and not a wizard: You can do it without magic.

If I were you, I'd swap out identify on your spells known for something else unless you're the only caster in the party. And even then, scrolls of identify might be better.
Note that I'm using the "Trickster" variant. My Sneak Attack is mired at +1d6 (at least until I dip Swordsage at 9th), and I've lost a lot of my skillmonkeyness. In exchange, I'm getting the ability to, y'know, actually have spells. I go from having three 1st level spells even after bonuses from my Cha, to having five 1st lvl, three 2nd lvl, and a 3rd lvl. My Spells Known list improves dramatically as well.

In short, while Spelltheives are usually pseudorogues, I'm exchanging that for more magical proficiency. I end up with Bard+ casting, with the same slots and spells known but a dramatically expanded list. I'm moderately worse as a skillmonkey than the Bard is since I get a couple less skillpoints and my skill list suffers. And I have Spellthief class features instead of Bard ones, of course.

That said, the scroll/wand advice was great! Thanks!

[Rubik]

Soon as you can, convince your party to start buying those teeth from Tome of Magic (like the tooth of Leraje). They explicitly give the wielder spell-like abilities (which you can then steal, without expending).

+5 weapons for everyone in the party all day for 20,000 gp? All the beatsticks should be up for that.

[sonofzeal]

Soon as you can, convince your party to start buying those teeth from Tome of Magic (like the tooth of Leraje). They explicitly give the wielder spell-like abilities (which you can then steal, without expending).

+5 weapons for everyone in the party all day for 20,000 gp? All the beatsticks should be up for that.
Good catch, but that won't be a while yet




Anyone care to weigh in on Infinite Scrollcase vs Handy Haversack, or UMD'd Infusions?