Underwater

[Balor01]

My lvl 4 players will soon enter a cave and in order to reach their target, they will need to travel about half an hours walk underwater. It will be dark, water will be murky, so it will be nasty from this viewpoint, but also - there will also be underwater combat.

I have read notes on it in core books, but I would much appreciate what penalties may I apply in these conditions. So far I have:
- must be able not to drown underwater
- pitch darkness - must be able to provide light (reduced vision underwater)
- 20% concealment to all creatures (mud in eater)
- silence - characters are unable to speak and use spells with sound components underwater (only bubbles come out of their mouths if they speak)
- penalties to hit and dmg - to-hit bonuses are reduced 50%, same with damage per hit because attacker must strike trough water (bld and slsh only)

Got any other ideas? Comments on these penalties?

How would you as a PC face underwater combat?

[W3bDragon]

The tactic that PCs fear the most under water is grapple. Without freedom of movement or water breathing, I'd be loathe to dip my feet into water with the possibility of encounters. The darkness should be the easiest to overcome with any kind of caster.

Unfortunately, once water breathing and freedom of movement are provided, underwater combat becomes far less interesting.

For an idea, I'd shy away from giving them water breathing (assuming they can't provide it themselves) and instead use the Bottle of Air magic item. Just one of these can cover the whole party with ease, but would add great tension during combat as people have to continue passing the bottle around to breath while still fighting.

[docnessuno]

Be very wary of druids. If Druidzilla is powerfull, you will start crying hard after some player realizes how much more powerful is a druid underwater.

[Parra]

to hit and dmg - to-hit bonuses are reduced 50%, same with damage per hit because attacker must strike trough water

Got any other ideas? Comments on these penalties?


do these apply to piercing weapons or am I getting it confused with an older version of the rules? (where it only applied to slashing & bludgeoning)

[silver spectre]

How would you as a PC face underwater combat?

If possible I would use alter self to transform myself into an aquatic version of my type (aquatic elf, locathah, etc..., if humanoid) and make sure I have piercing dmg type weapons at hand.

[Balor01]

@W3bDragon
I do not see waterbreathing as a big problem. Without it it is almost impossible for them to do much anything.

@docnessuno
No druids here, so thats ok, but even if they were, other party members would stil suffer.

@Parra
This penalty was complete homebrew. I see applying it to bludgeoning and slashing only as awise choice.

[Parra]

ah I see.

Well I would also expand on the Vision Obscurement granting concealment. something like:
0%concealment for 10'
20% concealment up to 20'
50% concealment beyond 40'

or what ever distances seem to fit better depending on how murkey the water is

[Slipperychicken]

I'd pull out my 20gp liquid sunlight (the one that glows like a torch) to mitigate the concealment. There are the aquatic action line of crystals, which give water breathing and other goodies, but Im not sure if lvl4 can afford those. There are some cheap masks that let you breathe water for a while. Also, Id hope that whatever's on the other side is worth it, because 30 minutes of water travel is at least a mile- you ever swim a mile? It'd probably force Con checks against exhaustion.

[nedz]

What are your underwater movement rules ?

[Balor01]

@nedz
Awesome question. I had none to this point but I am thinking 50% speed decrease, no running, no charging if walking. Also, something along swimming can be only done as full-round action.

[nedz]

There are proper rules - see the Swim skill.

Basically DC 10 Swim Check to move at half your speed as a full round action, or one quarter as a move action. If you fail by 4 or less you make no progress otherwise you sink.
You can also walk along the bottom at half speed - if you are weighted down.

How deep is the water ?
Are you familer with the drowning rules ?

Personally I'd make them only have to swim short sections, or you may end up a lot of dead characters - if their Swim skill is less than 5 that is.

Ed sp

[GnomeGninjas]

On pages 92 and 93 of the DMG there are rules for underwater combat.

[jaybird]

I would memorize a day's worth of Shocking Grasps and touch the water. Just saying.

[Diefje]

It's brutal. I wouldn't be surprised if your party would either abandon it or try very hard to find a way around it.

Anyway, don't forget the limited range for bows and xbows (-2 to hit per 5ft) and inability to use thrown weapons. And personally I would scratch the concealment, since vision range will be terrible to start with (not even counting the darkness) and their combat abilities severely limited.

[Balor01]

@nedz
They do not need to swim. Water is reaching all the way to the top of the cave so I expect them to walk on the bottom.

@GnomeGninjas
I find those rules a bit lacking.

@Diefje
50% of my group are rather awesome munchinks. They just walked trught my encounters so many times, I would not be surprised if they managed to pull this of here, too.

[Necroticplague]

Verbal componentes are still possible, just at some penalty unless your an aquatic race (because you can still make noise in the water, but land-grown animals would be unable to understand their own noises underwater, so it would be like being deafened). Communication is still possible, but harder because the word are distorteed somewhat (though the water carries their voice further.)

[Balor01]

@Necroticplague

> Plunge your head in a bowl of water.
> Try to say "avadakadavra"
> nope.jpeg

You can scream underwater, but apart from noise there is not much else you will be able to do. Let alone cast spells with verbal components.

[Parra]

I would agree, however if the Character is Aquatic or has aquired an actual Water Breathing ability, not just a bottle of air or similar, then I would allow it.
Essentially the Race/Ability/Magic would overcome the normal limitations imposed by the water.

[Necroticplague]

@Necroticplague

> Plunge your head in a bowl of water.
> Try to say "avadakadavra"
> nope.jpeg

You can scream underwater, but apart from noise there is not much else you will be able to do. Let alone cast spells with verbal components.

Where does it say anywhere that verbal components are complicated or long? Since most things are a standard action to cast, their components must only be a couple seconds long, and considering that the Primitive Spell feat exists, we know it isn't to outlandish for spell components to be simple shouts. And on conversation: If your mouth+larynx are vibrating and moving the same as normal, the same sounds come out. They will be severely garbled because it would travel faster then we are used to, but not incoherently so.

[nedz]

My lvl 4 players ... about half an hours walk underwater ... underwater combat ... must be able not to drown underwater



@nedz
They do not need to swim. Water is reaching all the way to the top of the cave so I expect them to walk on the bottom.

How are they going to do the not drowning again ?

[Coidzor]

For an idea, I'd shy away from giving them water breathing (assuming they can't provide it themselves) and instead use the Bottle of Air magic item. Just one of these can cover the whole party with ease, but would add great tension during combat as people have to continue passing the bottle around to breath while still fighting.

You have Constitution*2 rounds of air from the last time they used the bottle, presumably the worst off person in the party is going to be around 3-5 rounds down at the start of combat. Most PCs are not going to have below a 10 constitution. Most combats do not last 15+ rounds.

[W3bDragon]

You have Constitution*2 rounds of air from the last time they used the bottle, presumably the worst off person in the party is going to be around 3-5 rounds down at the start of combat. Most PCs are not going to have below a 10 constitution. Most combats do not last 15+ rounds.


You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to twice your Constitution score, but only if you do nothing other than take move actions or free actions. If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. (Effectively, a character in combat can hold his or her breath only half as long as normal.)
Emphasis mine.

Once combat starts, the duration you can hold your breath is effectively halved. Meaning that some members of the party could have as low as 7 rounds before they need another breath. Couple that with the naturally lower speeds of moving around in water, which can prolong the fight as well, and some PCs can be in a bit of a pickle.

Edit: And that's actually being generous and assuming that they're passing the bottle around every round. Passing it around will take actions which will slow them down significantly, so they're more likely to pass the bottle around every few rounds, say every 3 or 4 rounds. Meaning that when battle breaks out, some could be as low as 4 rounds away from con checks.

[Coidzor]

Wandering around in horrible visibility underwater as the only way in to a place you want to go is an obvious trap, so the players would have to fail to consider this possibility somehow for that to be the case.

[Balor01]

@nedz
Erm, with this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterBreathing.htm?

[Sir Augusta]

Is Animal Shapes a 3e/3.5e spell?
If it is, and one of the party members can cast it, then turn the whole party into sharks, and there, problem solved.

[Necroticplague]

Is Animal Shapes a 3e/3.5e spell?
If it is, and one of the party members can cast it, then turn the whole party into sharks, and there, problem solved.

No, but polymorph is, but it's to high level for a level 4 to cast. Alter Self, on the other hand, still works.

[Balor01]

@Sir Augusta
Well, they can Alter self, but lose all spellcasting, ability to communicate, also shark has AC 15. It is a pretty sucky tradeoff. They can swim fast, but if they encounter an encounter ... things may turn pretty bad pretty fast.

[Necroticplague]

@Sir Augusta
Well, they can Alter self, but lose all spellcasting, ability to communicate, also shark has AC 15. It is a pretty sucky tradeoff. They can swim fast, but if they encounter an encounter ... things may turn pretty bad pretty fast.

Alter self requires the creature to be of the same type as yourself. So in order to be a shark, your original type would have to be animal. Since all animals have int<2, they are not valid PC options. And even if they are, that is far to low to cast spells.

[nedz]

@nedz
Erm, with this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterBreathing.htm?

The're level 4 and this is a 3rd level spell !

[Balor01]

@nedz
Well, they can buy scrolls.

[nedz]

@nedz
Well, they can buy scrolls.

Scrolls, underwater ?
I'm thinking that the duration may run out half way through.
Potions are probably better.

[jaybird]

Scrolls, underwater ?
I'm thinking that the duration may run out half way through.
Potions are probably better.

I think he meant buy scrolls and use them before diving in. UMD covers a multitude of sins.