How do you actually deal damage as a DEX based character?

[Con_Brio1993]

So I want to play a Factotum, and for my rolls I got: 11/18/14/18/12/15

Now normally low STR isn't a big deal. I'll have Inspiration Points to boost my damage using my INT mod. However, are there any other ways to boost damage? Like a weapon that uses DEX for both attack and damage rolls?

Bows are stuck dealing 1d8 unless I'm missing something. Feycraft stuff (to avoid taking weapon finesse) can use DEX for attack rolls, but not damage.

What are dex based non-casters supposed to do?

[Ravens_cry]

Find bonus sources of damage. Sneak Attack and variants are some, though a lot of things are immune various, magic gets past a lot of them if you are willing to invest the coin.
Factotums can emulate sneak attack I believe.

[Heliomance]

Sneak attack. UMD and wands. Champion of Corellon Larethian (I think). Possibly some ToB stuff, not sure. Iaijutsu Focus. Those are about your only options, really.

[docnessuno]

Shadow hand (ToB) gives you dex to damage with many of the fitnessable weapons. There are other ways to get it but that is by far the one with less feats/class levels investment required.

Extra damage sources are also a great boon, sneak attack (best option), skirmish, sudden strike, etc.

Swashbuckler 3 gives you int to damage and, with a rogue dip + a feat, also 1-2 SA dices.

Swordsage 1 or 2, if taken at level 9+, grants you 2d6 SA from a stance and easy access to dex to damage, from the previously mentioned feat.

[Zombimode]

So I want to play a Factotum, and for my rolls I got: 11/18/14/18/12/15

Now normally low STR isn't a big deal. I'll have Inspiration Points to boost my damage using my INT mod. However, are there any other ways to boost damage? Like a weapon that uses DEX for both attack and damage rolls?

Bows are stuck dealing 1d8 unless I'm missing something. Feycraft stuff (to avoid taking weapon finesse) can use DEX for attack rolls, but not damage.

What are dex based non-casters supposed to do?

Standart issue: use Shadow Hand weapons (Shortsword is good, but Spiked Chain is golden for a Factotum, if you dont mind the silliness), spend three feats on Martial Study (any shadow hand maneuver), Martial Stance (any shadow hand stance) and Shadow Blade (Dex to damage with Shadow Hand weapons while in a Shadow Hand stance). Or better, just toss in level of Swordsage. 4 maneuvers and a stance is cool (plus free weapon focus).

Edit: I was, of course, swordsage'ed

[Con_Brio1993]

Sneak attack. UMD and wands. Champion of Corellon Larethian (I think). Possibly some ToB stuff, not sure. Iaijutsu Focus. Those are about your only options, really.

Yeah we can emulate Sneak Attack with Inspiration Points. What exactly is UMD, and CoCL?

Iaijutsu Focus only works when the opponents are flat footed, which is only the first round of the battle, unless there are ways to make enemies count as flat-footed that I don't know about.



Standart issue: use Shadow Hand weapons (Shortsword is good, but Spiked Chain is golden for a Factotum, if you dont mind the silliness), spend three feats on Martial Study (any shadow hand maneuver), Martial Stance (any shadow hand stance) and Shadow Blade (Dex to damage with Shadow Hand weapons while in a Shadow Hand stance). Or better, just toss in level of Swordsage. 4 maneuvers and a stance is cool (plus free weapon focus).

Edit: I was, of course, swordsage'ed

3 feats is just too costly. Though if 1 level in Swordsage is good enough I may do that.

edit:

I may also just choose not to deal damage and instead work with poisons. What is that feat that allows you to poison things like constructs?

[Darrin]

In addition to Swordsage/Shadow Blade, you can get your Dex bonus on damage via Crossbow Sniper (PHBII), Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium), and Drow Hit & Run Fighter ACF (DotU).

[Knaight]

Yeah we can emulate Sneak Attack with Inspiration Points. What exactly is UMD, and CoCL?

UMD is Use Magic Device. CoCL is one of the acronyms I'm actually not familiar with, though I seem to remember it being either a feat or a prestige class. Probably the first of the two.

[docnessuno]

UMD is Use Magic Device. CoCL is one of the acronyms I'm actually not familiar with.

Champion of Corellon Larethian

[Knaight]

Champion of Corellon Larethian

That doesn't really help much.

[JoeYounger]

There's a feat called Dead Eye from Dragon Magazine 325 that lets you add dex to dmg with ranged attacks within 30 ft. the prereqs are +1 BAB and weapon focus with the ranged weapon.

[Tankadin]

Iaijutsu Focus only works when the opponents are flat footed, which is only the first round of the battle, unless there are ways to make enemies count as flat-footed that I don't know about.

Casting Grease should work--most monsters aren't going to have the, what is it, 5 ranks in Balance to avoid being flat-footed. As a Factotum, you would. I think you could use a bag of marbles, as well, but your DM might only allow that if you can make the Scooby-Doo out-of-balance noises while enemies slip and fall.

[Zombimode]

Yeah we can emulate Sneak Attack with Inspiration Points. What exactly is UMD, and CoCL?

Iaijutsu Focus only works when the opponents are flat footed, which is only the first round of the battle, unless there are ways to make enemies count as flat-footed that I don't know about.

There are. Everone without at least 5 ranks in Balance who needs to make a Balance check for whatever reason is considered flat-footed. Guess how many enemies have 5+ ranks in balance... And Grease is a 1st level spell/power.

Then there is Spaphire Nightmare Blade, a 1st level Diamond Mind maneuver you can handily pick up with your one Swordsage level. It has a chance of rendering one enemy flat-footed (and +1d6 damage).

There are probably others.





3 feats is just too costly. Though if 1 level in Swordsage is good enough I may do that.
1 level of Swordsage and one feat. Definately an opportunity cost, but something to consider.

[Heliomance]

Yeah we can emulate Sneak Attack with Inspiration Points. What exactly is UMD, and CoCL?

Iaijutsu Focus only works when the opponents are flat footed, which is only the first round of the battle, unless there are ways to make enemies count as flat-footed that I don't know about.

You've already been told about balance checks. The best weapon to use for Iaijutsu Focus is the gnomish quickrazor from Races of Stone. Proficiency let's you sheathe it as a free action, thus granting you the ability to do iteratives with IF.
As for CoCL, I'm going off memory here but I think it's an elf-only PrC from Races of the Wild. If memory serves, it lets you add your DEX to damage.

[Con_Brio1993]

Casting Grease should work--most monsters aren't going to have the, what is it, 5 ranks in Balance to avoid being flat-footed. As a Factotum, you would. I think you could use a bag of marbles, as well, but your DM might only allow that if you can make the Scooby-Doo out-of-balance noises while enemies slip and fall.

Aren't enemies that fail the check just prone? That isn't flat footed. But a bag of marbles is awesome.

Anyway so far the ideas that fit my character: Gnomish Quickrazor, Sapphire Nightmare Blade (though this costs a level and a feat soooo....), Grease, and Crossbow Sniper (PHBII).

Though Crossbow Sniper only adds half my dex mod and isnt worth it.

So far I'll just carry marbles with me everywhere.

[Con_Brio1993]

doouble post damn

[Zombimode]

Aren't enemies that fail the check just prone? That isn't flat footed.

It is. Its a bit easy to miss, though, since it isnt in the spell description. Point is, grease forces a balance check. Now look at the skill description. If you are beeing attacked while balancing (= making a balance check) you are automaticly flat-footed, regardless of the success of the check. Only way to get arround this is having at least 5 ranks of balance.

Of course, marbles are cool to (and work on the same principle). But some DMs might find the idea silly enough to impose some restrictions. I cant blame them :smalltongue:

[docnessuno]

Factotum 8
At level 9, dip swordsage 1 and take one feat, this single dip will net you

2d6 SA damage (Assassin's stance)
Free weapon focus with a broad range of weapons
+1 initiative
Dex to damage with a broad range of weapons
6 known manouvers up to 3rd level, 4 readied

Manouvers highlights:
cloak of deception (1 round long greater invisibility as swift action)
counter charge (dex check to negate a charge against you as an immediate action)
shappire nightimare blade (concentration check to treat opponent as flat-footed and deal 1d6 extra damage)
insightful strike (deal [result of concentration check] damage)
zephyr dance (immediate action +4 dodge to AC, used after your opponent hit you to make the attack miss)
burning blade (as a swift action your attacks deal 1d6+IL [1d6+5 @ 9th] extra fire damage for 1 round)
mountain hammer (strike for 2d6 extra damage ignoring any DR)
sudden leap (move with a jump check as a swift action)

[Gavinfoxx]

The thing is, Factotum is an INT based character, not a DEX based character... Intelligence, then Con, then Cha, then STR or Dex, then Wis... and factotum's main sources of damage are Iajutsu Focus, inspiration points for sneak attack, and Knowledge Devotion...

[Zombimode]

Just to add to your solid advice:


counter charge (dex check to negate a charge against you as an immediate action)
Since this is a Dex or Str check the Factotum gets its Int on the check, too.


The thing is, Factotum is an INT based character, not a DEX based character... Intelligence, then Con, then Cha, then STR or Dex, then Wis... and factotum's main sources of damage are Iajutsu Focus, inspiration points for sneak attack, and Knowledge Devotion...

Read the OP. He has rolled an 18 for Dex.

[Con_Brio1993]

The thing is, Factotum is an INT based character, not a DEX based character... Intelligence, then Con, then Cha, then STR or Dex, then Wis... and factotum's main sources of damage are Iajutsu Focus, inspiration points for sneak attack, and Knowledge Devotion...

Yes INT is my highest, but I'm playing a stealthy character.

And a high dex is needed to hit without spending a boatload of IP.

[ILM]

Factotum 8
At level 9, dip swordsage 1 and take one feat, this single dip will net you

2d6 SA damage (Assassin's stance)
You can't take a second-level stance with just one level of SS, however late you take it.

[Curmudgeon]

Point is, grease forces a balance check. Now look at the skill description.
Only if the creature tries to walk in the spell area.
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. If you don't try to walk, there's no Balance check; if you don't need to make a Balance check you're not balancing. A creature who stands in place and fights, one who's fallen and attacks from prone, and even a crawling creature will not be flat-footed.

[Con_Brio1993]

Only if the creature tries to walk in the spell area. If you don't try to walk, there's no Balance check; if you don't need to make a Balance check you're not balancing. A creature who stands in place and fights, one who's fallen and attacks from prone, and even a crawling creature will not be flat-footed.

What if you summon the grease on their square? Either they stand still (1 enemy we can deal with later) or try to move.

[docnessuno]

You can't take a second-level stance with just one level of SS, however late you take it.

You can as far as i know.

A level X stance requires initiator level (2x-1) plus whatever prerequisites the stance mentions. Factotum 8 / swordsage 1 (in that order) has initiator level 5, enough for lvl 3 stances and manouvers

[Talya]

You can't take a second-level stance with just one level of SS, however late you take it.

That is very much debated, due to the wording in TOB.

[ILM]

What part of "you begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you" is up for debate? :smallconfused:

[JoeYounger]

What part of "you begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you" is up for debate? :smallconfused:

The arguement is that only applies to a level 1 character. a level 8 char who picks up a level of warblade isnt "beginning play".

[Talya]

What part of "you begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you" is up for debate? :smallconfused:


If you take a level of swordsage after you've already been playing for several days/weeks/months, you're hardly "beginning play," now, are you?

I've seen arguments about that from both sides. I can see both being valid.

[Rubik]

Take Manyshot (warning! feat-intensive!) so you can get +Int to attack on each ranged hit (since there's just one attack roll for several sources of damage). Also, the Craven feat will add your character level to sneak attacks (so 1 IP = 1d6+character level, and Assassin's Stance = 2d6+character level damage).

Boost your Concentration checks and you can get a ton of damage out of a number of diamond mind maneuvers (and you get delicious runs on saving throws as well -- if you have a psionic focus, you can Take 15 on your d20 roll, and you can boost your skill check through the roof, with no penalties for rolling nat 1s).

[Curmudgeon]

The arguement is that only applies to a level 1 character. a level 8 char who picks up a level of warblade isnt "beginning play".
Every aspect of a class description is relative to that class alone unless specified otherwise.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. Are you going to argue that a Cleric/Wizard (going into Mystic Theurge) never gains a spellbook?

It's class level only unless character level is explicitly mentioned.

[JaronK]

Basics of Iaijutsu Focus:

As mentioned, you're flat footed if you even make a balance check (regardless of success) without 5 ranks of balance. And almost nothing has balance ranks. So Grease and Marbles flat foot everything with no save.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade flat foots enemies. Since Swordsage 2 is a great dip for Factotums anyway (take it at level 5 or later to start with second level maneuvers) you might as well take that.

Blurstrike weapons flat foot enemies 10 times a day. That's probably plenty, since it's just for filling in when you can't flat foot them other ways.

Going first flat foots enemies. You're a Dex and Int character, and you get Int to initiative. Surprise rounds and then winning initiative flat foots enemies twice in a row, so sneak up on people and cut loose.

Honestly, those things should be sufficient.

JaronK

[docnessuno]

Every aspect of a class description is relative to that class alone unless specified otherwise. Are you going to argue that a Cleric/Wizard (going into Mystic Theurge) never gains a spellbook?

It's class level only unless character level is explicitly mentioned.

Yes, i am
Do you think that a character has a spellbook mystically appear in his hands as soon as he takes a wizard level? He has to purchase it.

[ILM]

Yes, i am
Do you think that a character has a spellbook mystically appear in his hands as soon as he takes a wizard level? He has to purchase it.
Sucks to be a bard, sorc, psion, wilder, psywar, or druid then. Take it at level 1, or don't take it at all!

A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice.

A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice.

A psion begins play knowing three psion powers of your choice.

A wilder begins play knowing one wilder power of your choice.

A psychic warrior begins play knowing one psychic warrior power of your choice.

A druid may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list

[Reprimand]

Yeah we can emulate Sneak Attack with Inspiration Points. What exactly is UMD, and CoCL?

Iaijutsu Focus only works when the opponents are flat footed, which is only the first round of the battle, unless there are ways to make enemies count as flat-footed that I don't know about.




3 feats is just too costly. Though if 1 level in Swordsage is good enough I may do that.

edit:

I may also just choose not to deal damage and instead work with poisons. What is that feat that allows you to poison things like constructs?

UMD is the use magic device.
Also Feinting in combat can make them flat footed in the middle of combat.

[JaronK]

Feinting denies dex, but doesn't flat foot them. Good for sneak attack, not so much for Iaijutsu Focus.

JaronK

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, i am
Do you think that a character has a spellbook mystically appear in his hands as soon as he takes a wizard level? He has to purchase it.
Every 1 HD Humanoid who becomes a Wizard has a spellbook appear in their possession as soon as they take that level.
The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells (also called cantrips) of your choice.
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells (also called cantrips) and two 1st-level spells of your choice.
Spells Known: You begin play knowing two 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells, chosen from the duskblade spell list.You don't begin as a 1st-level Bard, Sorcerer, or Duskblade with no known spells if you have previous character levels; the "Spells Known" entries for each of these classes specifies these at 1st level in the class, which is where you "begin play" regardless of previous character levels.
Bonus Feat: A wu jen begins play with a bonus metamagic feat. "Bonus feat" is a level 1 class feature of a Wu Jen. It applies regardless of character level.
You begin play with access to a mantle and its mantle power. "Mantle (1st)" is a level 1 class feature of a Divine Mind, irrespective of character level.
Powers Known: A psion begins play knowing three psion powers of your choice. 3 Powers Known is a 1st level Psion class feature, having nothing to do with character level.
A marshal begins play knowing one minor aura of his choice. As his marshal level increases, he gains access to new auras, as indicated on Table 1–5: The Marshal. "Minor Aura" is a level 1 class feature of a Marshal.
A vigilante’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A vigilante begins play knowing two 1st-level spells of his choice. Vigilante is a prestige class. It's impossible for you to "begin play" as a 1st level character.

The rules are entirely consistent, as far as my extensive searches can determine. Every time they use "begin play" in class descriptions, they're referring to 1st level in that class, and there's no dependency on character level.

[Metahuman1]

Every 1 HD Humanoid who becomes a Wizard has a spellbook appear in their possession as soon as they take that level. You don't begin as a 1st-level Bard, Sorcerer, or Duskblade with no known spells if you have previous character levels; the "Spells Known" entries for each of these classes specifies these at 1st level in the class, which is where you "begin play" regardless of previous character levels. "Bonus feat" is a level 1 class feature of a Wu Jen. It applies regardless of character level. "Mantle (1st)" is a level 1 class feature of a Divine Mind, irrespective of character level. 3 Powers Known is a 1st level Psion class feature, having nothing to do with character level. "Minor Aura" is a level 1 class feature of a Marshal. Vigilante is a prestige class. It's impossible for you to "begin play" as a 1st level character.

The rules are entirely consistent, as far as my extensive searches can determine. Every time they use "begin play" in class descriptions, they're referring to 1st level in that class, and there's no dependency on character level.
Characters add half there none martial Initiator level too there total martial initiator level for determining what level of maneuvers they can learn.

Stances are a form of martial maneuver.

So yes, you can learn a second level stance if you have 8 Factotum levels and then take a swordsage level. Simple.

What is it with everyone fighting tooth an nail over letting Melee have anything nice but the Wizard can throw all the rule books in the shredder the split second they become the tiniest bit inconvenient to what he wants to do right that moment?

[Heliomance]

Only if the creature tries to walk in the spell area. If you don't try to walk, there's no Balance check; if you don't need to make a Balance check you're not balancing. A creature who stands in place and fights, one who's fallen and attacks from prone, and even a crawling creature will not be flat-footed.

Marbles, from the Arms and Equipment Guide, work just fine, however.

[Curmudgeon]

Characters add half there none martial Initiator level too there total martial initiator level for determining what level of maneuvers they can learn.

Stances are a form of martial maneuver.

So yes, you can learn a second level stance if you have 8 Factotum levels and then take a swordsage level. Simple.
Not so simple, because your initiator level argument doesn't have anything to do with when you "begin play". The restriction on stances at level 1 in the martial adept classes isn't based on initiator level (an indicator of power). Your claim is akin to giving a Fighter 3/Sorcerer 1 with Practiced Spellcaster the same spells as a 4th level Sorcerer because their caster level (another indicator of power) has increased. In each case what you know is based on your level in the class, not your character level/power level.

[Qwertystop]

You could take that Shadow Hand maneuver that grants Greater Invis for one round. Or the stance that gives concealment while moving.

[Heliomance]

Not so simple, because your initiator level argument doesn't have anything to do with when you "begin play". The restriction on stances at level 1 in the martial adept classes isn't based on initiator level (an indicator of power). Your claim is akin to giving a Fighter 3/Sorcerer 1 with Practiced Spellcaster the same spells as a 4th level Sorcerer because their caster level (another indicator of power) has increased. In each case what you know is based on your level in the class, not your character level/power level.

Strict RAW would support you, and we all know that's your domain, Curmudgeon, but RAI is almost certainly that you can get the higher level stances. The wording is a result of copying the wording for every other first level ability along those lines without taking account of the fact that none of them advance if you have levels in other classes.

[ILM]

Strict RAW would support you, and we all know that's your domain, Curmudgeon, but RAI is almost certainly that you can get the higher level stances. The wording is a result of copying the wording for every other first level ability along those lines without taking account of the fact that none of them advance if you have levels in other classes.
I wouldn't be so sure that RAI supports taking one level of a ToB class as a capstone after 19 levels of whatever else, and instantly getting a level 5 always-on effect.

[charcoalninja]

Judging by the fact that the rest of the game does not function that way I'm pretty sure that RAI matches Curmugden's raw in this event. He's pretty well proven that powers and such gained are based on class level, which exactly that in all other cases, rather than some silly caster level model.

When you take one level, you only get the level 1 stuff, no exceptions. I'm no expert but it seems pretty clearcut to me.

[Talya]

Judging by the fact that the rest of the game does not function that way I'm pretty sure that RAI matches Curmugden's raw in this event. He's pretty well proven that powers and such gained are based on class level, which exactly that in all other cases, rather than some silly caster level model.

When you take one level, you only get the level 1 stuff, no exceptions. I'm no expert but it seems pretty clearcut to me.


Except there's already explicit exceptions in TOB classes.

Nothing prevents a level 1 swordsage who already has 6 levels of rogue from taking level 3 maneuvers, because maneuvers are based on initiator level, not class level.

I strongly suspect the wording of stances was an oversight, which is why I tend to side with the argument about "beginning play" not applying if you're already level 6...not because it's necessarily the best of arguments, but because I'd houserule it that way anyway even if it weren't up for debate. I'm not on the "Melee shouldn't get nice things" side of the fence.

[Godskook]

Applying the maneuver rules to stances for ToB classes is logically similar to applying the Ardent's power selection rules to other psionicists.

While houseruling stances to be selected at first level like maneuvers and stances are selected in every other case is a reasonable thing, it isn't RAW.

Besides, the only place where this is commonly seen, its also incredibly easy to fix without houserules, cause Swordsage 2 is good enough to be worth extending the dip with either interpretation.

[Safety Sword]

I wouldn't be so sure that RAI supports taking one level of a ToB class as a capstone after 19 levels of whatever else, and instantly getting a level 5 always-on effect.

That would seem to be excessive. A purely common sense reading would be that you're just starting to learn the way swordsages fight (etc etc) and that you should be learning abilities as such.

But apparently melee characters get to do things that make no sense in the name of giving them "nice things".

Edit: I also think melee should be boosted, but not by reading rules in ways that don't make sense to having a consistent character, which I think this is heading towards.

If it works for you, go for it (as always), but I wouldn't do it that way.

[killem2]

Beg your DM to remove Damage Reduction :) I mean, honestly, how hard is it for a house rule to say, no DR but instead they get say 5 more HD added to the total HP.

Or something like, lets say, if they have DR/10/Physical (I don't know what the type is for just plain damage), and the creatures hit die was 1d12+4, add on another 10d12+40 in extra hp.

I assume this would in a way equal out. It might be a bit annoying at lower levels though. So you may have to have a CR cut off.

Actually I just found this link...

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_damage_reduction

I like the way they do DR. I think I will do the same.

[ILM]

I'm not on the "Melee shouldn't get nice things" side of the fence.
Wow. When I grow up I wanna be just like you.

I like how these discussions always end up "Yeah, well I don't think melee shouldn't have nice things. You're what's wrong with the game." I do think melee should have nice things. I don't think this warrants stepping all over the rules. Especially not when it leads to a Wizard 19/ToB 1 with level 5 stances.

Plus, I'm not even sure it works even if you do allow access to higher-level stances at ToB level 1. All non-level 1 stances have prerequisites, and it's debatable whether you can declare that the maneuvers you pick at one level count as prereqs for other maneuvers you pick at the same level. Otherwise the above Wiz 19/ ToB 1 can pick only level 5 maneuvers and stances and just decide that all of them count as prerequisites for each other. Whee! Melee now have nice things - it just benefits casters even more. Way to go.

[Curmudgeon]

Otherwise the above Wiz 19/ ToB 1 can pick only level 5 maneuvers and stances and just decide that all of them count as prerequisites for each other. Whee! Melee now have nice things - it just benefits casters even more.
The Bard 19/ToB 1 would use Inspire Greatness to boost themselves to 22 HD as they level up, giving them IL 11.5 and thus 6th level maneuvers and stances. So the Bard/Swordsage could gain the required 2 Desert Wind maneuvers and use them as prerequisites to gain the Fiery Assault 6th-level stance. (Plus a Bard is much more likely to desire a melee boost than a Wizard anyway.)

[Vowtz]

Factotum 8
At level 9, dip swordsage 1 and take one feat, this single dip will net you

2d6 SA damage (Assassin's stance)


Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one
1st-level stance from any discipline open to you.Too simple to debate. Overcomplicating the mater will not grant you a 3rd-level stance. Of couse the DM can allow differently, he can break any rule he wants.

[cagemarrow]

So rather than argue back and forth about whether the one level dip gets you a stance, just take the feat Extra Stance for Assassin's Stance. Since you qualify if you take any Shadow hand maneuvers for one of your granted ones.

I know that bumps the requirements to 1 Level of Swordsage and then 2 feats but it's still worth it.

[Feytalist]

Additionally, Martial Study (any Shadow Hand maneuvre) -> Martial Stance (assassin's stance). Only requisite is effective initiate level. No martial class necessary. Still takes two feats, though.

[Taelas]

Or, as was mentioned already, just take Swordsage 2. You get a second stance at level 2, so as long as your IL is 5, you can take Assassin's Stance. So Factotum 6/Swordsage 2.

That also gives you an extra maneuver, and Wis to AC in light armor.

[Heliomance]

Too simple to debate. Overcomplicating the mater will not grant you a 3rd-level stance. Of couse the DM can allow differently, he can break any rule he wants.

RAW is clear. As ever, though, RAI is not, and there's a strong case to be made that that's an oversight. Since (I believe) this is a real game we're talking about, and not a purely theoretical exercise, that's a relevant debate.

[marcielle]

You can actually accumulate damage pretty fast at low levels. Rogue1/Ninja1/Spellthief1/Sneak Attack Thug Fighter1/Swordsage2. With Craven of course. You are nearly adding 1d6+1 damage to each of your attacks every level. 5d6+6 at 6th level, while not completely optimized, is still respectable in normal play, and all the classes are closely related(unlike some of the wierder optimization builds). One thing to remember is you ALWAYS want DR bypass by mid levels and find a cheap way of making sure you get that precision damage. Actual allies are helpful but there are tons of other ways.

With this you practically NEED to be human/strongheart halfling though, as you get pretty much zilch in the way of feats.

Just out of curiosity, the srd just says attack. Does this mean unorthodox attacks like maneuvers and DFA breath weapons count? In which case, Tiger Claw seriously reduces feat dependancy.

[Knaight]

That would seem to be excessive. A purely common sense reading would be that you're just starting to learn the way swordsages fight (etc etc) and that you should be learning abilities as such.

But apparently melee characters get to do things that make no sense in the name of giving them "nice things".

What makes no sense is that studying combat will somehow produce a bunch of utterly useless skills in its use because it is slightly different than what has been studied before.. The thing about multiclassing ToB classes is that it acknowledges the drop in utility - a low level stance at level 20 is near worthless, a low level maneuver almost completely worthless. The same basic principles apply most everywhere, and for someone who starts karate to be effectively a complete beginner despite being highly proficient in judo, krav maga, and pankraton makes no sense.

[JadePhoenix]

Shadow Blade feat, or Agile weapon enhancement or Sword of Graceful Strikes.

[Draz74]

Nothing prevents a level 1 swordsage who already has 6 8 levels of rogue from taking level 3 maneuvers, because maneuvers are based on initiator level, not class level.

Fixed that for you.

[Chronos]

I'll say here what I always say about skillmonkey characters: If you're trying to optimize your damage, you're not playing to your strengths. As a skillmonkey, you should be aiming to win your encounters before initiative is even rolled. Rob your enemy blind before they even know you're there, and the actual killing part becomes trivially easy. Unnecessary, even, often: If you can get all the loot, or sneak past the guards, or whatever, and without them knowing you did it, does it even matter if they survive?

Yes, you do have abilities for use in combat, like Sneak Attack. Those are there so you're not completely helpless when things fail to go according to plan, which will happen sometimes. It doesn't mean you shouldn't make those plans, though.

[JackRackham]

Around 9th-10 level, dip SS. Take assassin's stance for sneak attack, maybe take shadow blade, definitely take shadow garrote. Then you can use shadow garrote to flatfoot an enemy and do some nice damage and use cunning surge to gain an extra standard action, which you can use to cast scorching ray. It's a ranged touch attack and you'll sneak attack on each ray (since they're separate attack rolls). Dual weilding will also help if you're in assassin's stance and especially if you get shadow blade. You'll also want weapon finesse.

[lord_khaine]

Seriously, i think the lv 1 SS stance arguement are weird, will you then also allow a starting swordsage to get the (6+int mod)*6 skillpoints he by raw should gain?

[Heliomance]

Seriously, i think the lv 1 SS stance arguement are weird, will you then also allow a starting swordsage to get the (6+int mod)*6 skillpoints he by raw should gain?

That's a clear typo, just like the d34 Scorpion Whip. But ToB has a specific multiclassing mechanic different from any other class, and that line about the level 1 stance is in violation of it. It's not a great stretch to assume that the wording was simply copied from another class that doesn't have the ToB multiclassing mechanic, and that if your IL qualifies you for higher level stances, you should be able to take them.

[Gavinfoxx]

..Scorching Ray only gets sneak attack damage on the first ray, right?? I am pretty sure the books use that SPECIFIC example, somewhere... Complete Mage or Complete Arcane or Rules Compendium, maybe?

*check*
Rules Compendium page 42. Probably elsewhere too...

[Hiro Protagonest]

RAW is clear. As ever, though, RAI is not, and there's a strong case to be made that that's an oversight. Since (I believe) this is a real game we're talking about, and not a purely theoretical exercise, that's a relevant debate.

Actually...

Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one
1st-level stance from any discipline open to you.

[Heliomance]

Your point?

[Incanur]

Those are stats to be proud of. As a factotum, you don't need to do massive damage to be effective in combat - far from it. But, if you must, use Knowledge Devotion, poison, and/or iaijutsu focus.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Your point?

That it is ambiguous on RAW. But not on RAMS.

[Curmudgeon]

It's not a great stretch to assume that the wording was simply copied from another class that doesn't have the ToB multiclassing mechanic ...
... and then the implications of that line escaped notice by everyone involved in producing the book, for all of Tome of Battle's base classes (since the restriction to 1st level stances is repeated for all of them)?

Seems like a very great stretch, to me. I favor the simpler interpretation: the authors actually knew what they intended, and wrote what they meant.

[Hiro Protagonest]

... and then the implications of that line escaped notice by everyone involved in producing the book, for all of Tome of Battle's base classes (since the restriction to 1st level stances is repeated for all of them)?

Seems like a very great stretch, to me. I favor the simpler interpretation: the authors actually knew what they intended, and wrote what they meant.

The authors don't even know how powerful a first level spell should be, or how to word Iron Heart Surge.

[Dr.Epic]

sneak attack; get it? this is in white text because it's sneaky

[Safety Sword]

The same basic principles apply most everywhere, and for someone who starts karate to be effectively a complete beginner despite being highly proficient in judo, krav maga, and pankraton makes no sense.

Now you've gone and done it....

As someone with a brown belt in judo, who then started karate, I can tell you that not all the skills are transferable. In fact, it's a completely different fighting style with regard to everything that matters such as combat distance, striking points, stances... so everything that matters in hand to hand combat. This is why judo and karate are not the same. So to put it back into D&D, it's why fighter is not swordsage.

So, real life example that doesn't support your view point. Sorry.

[Gavinfoxx]

For real life fighting, if you take the category of things that are:

'Primarily grappling-based urnarmed martial arts that are meant to seriously injure or kill or incapacitate an enemy, and are not primarily a sport', then most of THOSE -- regardless of what culture they are from -- tend to be really really really really similar...

[Incanur]

So, real life example that doesn't support your view point. Sorry.

The European martial arts tradition emphatically supports the notion of prowess as a universal.

[Safety Sword]

For real life fighting, if you take the category of things that are:

'Primarily grappling-based urnarmed martial arts that are meant to seriously injure or kill or incapacitate an enemy, and are not primarily a sport', then most of THOSE -- regardless of what culture they are from -- tend to be really really really really similar...

Sure, but judo is primarily throws and grapples. Karate is primarily striking. I was just following a specific example given.

If you want to lump all sword using classes and try to compare them for D&D you're going to run into trouble.

Edit: "European martial arts tradition" - Your trusted name in pointy sticks since 1329 - :smalltongue:

[Knaight]

Now you've gone and done it....

As someone with a brown belt in judo, who then started karate, I can tell you that not all the skills are transferable. In fact, it's a completely different fighting style with regard to everything that matters such as combat distance, striking points, stances... so everything that matters in hand to hand combat. This is why judo and karate are not the same. So to put it back into D&D, it's why fighter is not swordsage.

And even the fighter will only be picking up 5th level stuff at level 20, and not 9th. Plus, you are ignoring physical conditioning, which is fairly transferable - not perfectly, as there are different muscles involved in the stances and such, but significantly nonetheless.

I tend to do armed sparring, and primarily use the small sword and the hewing spear. One of these is a light weight civilian dueling weapon used in one hand, the other very much a weapon of war used in two. And yet, some of the same skills apply to both. Not wasting energy, being able to predict ones opponent by their stance, general awareness of what is going on around you (see: not getting stabbed in the back because you failed to pay attention to the general situation), all of these are either the same or close enough to be transferable. Moreover, because of those, muscle development, and other concepts I am far better than the completely untrained even with weapons I have little practice with - I was decent with a mace the first time I picked one up, and they handle differently from both the small sword and the hewing spear. Sure, I'm not nearly as good with it as with either of those weapons, but because of my familiarity with those, I can use it better than most.

Plus, the example was of knowing three martial arts, none of which are applicable to a fourth, not just of one.

[Heliomance]

... and then the implications of that line escaped notice by everyone involved in producing the book, for all of Tome of Battle's base classes (since the restriction to 1st level stances is repeated for all of them)?

Seems like a very great stretch, to me. I favor the simpler interpretation: the authors actually knew what they intended, and wrote what they meant.

Bearing in mind some of the other things that have slipped by and got into the books when they really shouldn't have? Sounds absolutely believable to me.

[Incanur]

To put things in historical perspective, many sixteenth-century Europeans, at least, thought that martial skill meant the ability to defend yourself with anything whatsoever. Masters had to be familiar with all manner of weapons. This has an obvious practical utility about it.

[Chronos]

... and then the implications of that line escaped notice by everyone involved in producing the book, for all of Tome of Battle's base classes (since the restriction to 1st level stances is repeated for all of them)?

Seems like a very great stretch, to me. I favor the simpler interpretation: the authors actually knew what they intended, and wrote what they meant.Yup, sounds like exactly the sort of thing that would sneak through editing. It's no less believable than, say, all of the people involved in Complete Arcane accidentally not noticing that they'd given the Rainbow Servant and a bunch of other classes full progression. If the authors had actually intended first-level stances to be limited, don't you think they would have included a mention of that in the section on initiator level prerequisites for stances?

[The Underlord]

I think a good analogy for martial arts debate would be the violin and viola. Sure how you play is very similar(not the same though) but what you actually DO is completely different.

OT Basically, as others have said, get an alternate source of damage(like sneak attack or skirimish) or find a way to add dex to damage. Common ways are ACF(all I know have been listed), CoCL, the shadow blade feat which adds dex to damage when using favored weapons of the shadow hand discipline, and crossbow sniper which adds HALF dex to damage for crossbows. Something helpful is Person Mans X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732).

[Siosilvar]

... and then the implications of that line escaped notice by everyone involved in producing the book, for all of Tome of Battle's base classes (since the restriction to 1st level stances is repeated for all of them)?

Seems like a very great stretch, to me. I favor the simpler interpretation: the authors actually knew what they intended, and wrote what they meant.

They let the x6 skill points slip by, didn't they? Likewise with the scorpion whip and the Vigilante's spells.

Humans make mistakes. Why should we hold the designers to some higher standard?

[Curmudgeon]

They let the x6 skill points slip by, didn't they? Likewise with the scorpion whip and the Vigilante's spells.

Humans make mistakes. Why should we hold the designers to some higher standard?
I'm not in favor of it, but it's stated WotC policy not to bother with typos. From the Player's Handbook Errata:
In Conclusion . . .
Wizards of the Coast supplies the preceding errata information in the hopes that it helps you better enjoy your DUNGEONS & DRAGONS® game. Errata in this file includes material that the Wizards of the Coast RPG R&D department and editors feel might affect your gameplay experience. It does not include minor, typographical errors—the sort of thing that might be fixed in a reprint but has no impact on your game. So there's a policy difference between a single character error (left to the DMs to correct), and the implications of a clearly stated rule that's repeated three times. If it's spelled correctly but you think they might have been thinking of something else: too bad, because WotC says until they release an official errata file it's all gospel (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gospel)*.
* - in the 4th sense

[Siosilvar]

Hm... at least it's internally consistent.

*checks list of houserules to make sure that's on there*

[Heliomance]

I'm not in favor of it, but it's stated WotC policy not to bother with typos. From the Player's Handbook Errata: So there's a policy difference between a single character error (left to the DMs to correct), and the implications of a clearly stated rule that's repeated three times. If it's spelled correctly but you think they might have been thinking of something else: too bad, because WotC says until they release an official errata file it's all gospel (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gospel)*.
* - in the 4th sense

Again, RAW, you're absolutely right. But there have been glaring errors left in other places - the Rainbow Servant's table-text discrepancy springs to mind - and we all know the ToB errata is a joke. No-one is disputing your RAW reading of the wording. What we are debating is the RAI and RAMS, and there's a lot more wiggle room in those.