Psionic 4th level powers suck!!

[Raendyn]

My psion reached 8th lvl and I noticed that: I have no powers worth of being in my (limited)list.

My fellow wizards, when they gain 4th level spells they literally can't choose which to write in the spellbook as there are too many Super-great spells.
(Black tentacles, solid fog, Ray deflection,, resistance, orbs, enervation, polymorph...) those and more just from the SP and PH.

Now lets go to the 4th lvl psionic powers(just the Complete Psi): the save or die (death urge) is worse than a normal save or die. divination and dimension door, FoM are just like the arcane equivalents which are descent spells at best. The mindwipe is far worse than enervation, and many more examples...

In conclusion, all 4th lvl powers end up roughly as good as the arcane equivalents(just DDoor has some kind of versatility), with only exception the intellect fortress which is circumnstancial and demands full transeperacy to be worthy. and at the same time they are so limited and there are no equi valents of the best spells...
(Even if we include the discipline powers only metamorphosis has this feeling of "Win" and at higher lvls Schism and maybe Dominate depending on the setting)

Why should this happend?

[docnessuno]

Possibly because you selected the wrong discipline.
Telepathy, lvl4:
Dominate, psionic
Schism

[Raendyn]

Possibly because you selected the wrong discipline.
Telepathy, lvl4:
Dominate, psionic
Schism

There a reason I didn't put disciplines in there, I am talking about the general powers, because noone can tell you " pick this discipline or suck".

Plus, as i already said, schism's potency comes into play after a few lvls...

[Psyren]

Psychic Reformation
Metamorphosis
Control Body
Clairtangent Hand
Fabricate

Huh?

(And if you can't come up with a use for Quintessence, you're not trying hard enough)


There a reason I didn't put disciplines in there, I am talking about the general powers, because noone can tell you " pick this discipline or suck"

Expanded Knowledge? Discipline powers are just general powers you have to wait a few levels for.

[Raendyn]

stuff

I don't disagree, The point isn't that " there are no good powers"
The point is " there are no great powers"

really look at the arcane spells 4th lvl, the number of the cheesy spells has two digits and there's a chance that is starts with a 2.

At the psionics there are 2-3 such examples... and all behind a discipline...

[docnessuno]

Still, i do think your analysis of general power is flawed.

Death Urge is much better than a normal save-or-die, considerig that in-combat it bypass any death-effect immunity, while outside combat is one of the best way to kill someone without leaving any proof of your doinf (after all, the subject committed suicide).

Dimension door is a great power, one of the best mid-level utility for arcane and psionic characters.

And you din't even mention Psychic Reformation, a power that opens up limitless options.

Also consider you already got some great 4th level spells equivalents in the form of lower level augumentable powers (example: charm monster => charm, psionic)

[Elric VIII]

Just remember, Psions get Silent and Stilled DDoor/FoM. That makes them even more useful.

Telekinetic Maneuver has the cool factor going for it, and it's not that bad.

Energy Adaptation will almost always be useful, doubly so when you can augment it.

[Essence_of_War]

You have:
Dim Door (Cpsi) which a MAJOR upgrade to regular dim door.
Correspond (anyone ever met? any distance? yes please)
Divination
FoM
Gemstone Breath (DrM)
Intellect Fortress
Psychic Reformation
TK Maneuver
Trace Teleport
and Wall of Ectoplasm

ALL of those powers are excellent choices.

What discipline are you?

[AmberVael]

Psionic Dimension Door? (With Complete Psionic, it gets a whole lot of nifty options, from making it different actions, to taking a full round action and costing less).

Psionic Divination? It's like the great spell Divination, except with no material components. Great choice.

Intellect Fortress? Kind of specific, but it's an immediate action, can affect your whole group, and can be augmented to last numerous rounds.

Wall of Ectoplasm? Maybe not as great as Wall of Stone, but it is lower level and it is still good for battlefield control and other uses.


And really, lets talk about disciplines. You've got one of them, surely there is a good power at level 4 no matter which you picked.

Egoist: Metamorphosis. This would be the entire reason you picked the discipline. It is that good.

Kineticist: Control Body. You can get some fun uses out of this, particularly in controlling yourself to add your super high int to everything. Also, it's kind of like a non-mind affecting dominate. Pretty swanky.

Nomad: Psionic Fly, Dismissal, and Dimensional Anchor. All decent choices.

Seer: Remote Viewing. Because divination is good.

Shaper: Fabricate and Quintessence are both quite useful.

Telepath: Schism. Every psion I have ends up taking this power, whether they are a telepath or not. It is awesome.

[Psyren]

I don't disagree, The point isn't that " there are no good powers"
The point is " there are no great powers"

You're still wrong: Psyreform, Schism, Psionic Dominate, Metamorphosis and Control Body are all great powers.


really look at the arcane spells 4th lvl, the number of the cheesy spells has two digits and there's a chance that is starts with a 2.

What do you consider to be great arcane spells? Give examples.

Also, you aren't required to learn 4th-level powers even if you can - if there are useful 3rd and lower powers you'd rather learn instead, pick those up. With augmentation, many lower-level powers are as good as if not better than 4th-level ones anyway.


At the psionics there are 2-3 such examples... and all behind a discipline...

I still don't see what being a discipline power has to do with anything...

[Raendyn]

Just for the reference, This is not a cry-baby post, that I strugle to gather opinions that agree with me and I'll show it to my DM.

I am totally proud of my psion, I made this thread just to discuss the fact that 2 days ago my malkonvoker buddy told me:
" Now that I'll get 4th's I can't pick which to prepare, There are so many imba choices(starts spaming uber spells)..."

And then I said "hmm, you are right, I on the other hand will pick up bolt a 3rd lvl line blast because I don't really have much better options"

For the record, I am Egoist and metamorphosis is banned and i have Int fortress and DDoor already, and with anklets of translocation I don't really need FoM.

[AmberVael]

And then I said "hmm, you are right, I on the other hand will pick up bolt a 3rd lvl line blast because I don't really have much better options"

Every option listed in this thread is far better than Energy Bolt.

Wall of Ectoplasm. Divination. Psychic Reformation. Seriously, even Death Urge, which you earlier disparaged, is better than Energy Bolt.

Do psions have harder time making choices at lower levels? Possibly. Do they have some really great choices for 4th level powers? Yes.

Do wizards get better spells at level 4 than psions get powers? Yes. But that is because they're wizards and are the most powerful thing in the game with the most extra material made for them.

[Raendyn]

Every option listed in this thread is far better than Energy Bolt.

Wall of Ectoplasm. Divination. Psychic Reformation. Seriously, even Death Urge, which you earlier disparaged, is better than Energy Bolt.

Do psions have harder time making choices at lower levels? Possibly. Do they have some really great choices for 4th level powers? Yes.

Do wizards get better spells at level 4 than psions get powers? Yes. But that is because they're wizards and are the most powerful thing in the game with the most extra material made for them.

Well, Reformation is a good choice but, you take it and then reform it so you end up without reformation and just repick it when you lvl up and need it.
In my specific case I dont need the wall and I pick Divination as one of the 2 powers, I already have Crystal shard for DDealing but there are some cases where there is high touch AC and/or energy dmg is better choice...

And have in mind that all the spells have their roles, but no character needs spells for all roles, we usually take 1 primary and one secondary area of expertice in case our primary is unavaiable.

I my case, I already have more roles than I'd wish for, I blast, I summon, I heal and I Craft, and at the same time for utility, I teleport and absorb dmg and even tank in some cases. It's just me and 2 wizards there...

And I noticed what I already said, Even for someone with so many roles there are no spells that you feel like you must have no matter what.
I expected to be like " OMG so many great options & I only have 4 to learn" and I got disappointed.


Also, this thread has taken a very wrong direction, that was not what I started it for...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

One of the most powerful, and least used psionic 4th level powers is right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/detectRemoteViewing.htm).

Seriously. Half the power attributed to a Wizard? Being able to know *EXACTLY* what your opponent is doing. This? Lets you know when he's doing it. So you can use his own tactics to deliberately feed him misinformation. Bards and Beguilers only *WISH* they could do this. Then maybe Fool Scry would be more useful.

Empathic Feedback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicFeedback.htm) is another awesome power. While more for gishes and PsyWars, having a 'damage shield' is an excellent way to discourage getting hit.

He has enervation, you have Mindwipe (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindwipe.htm). Sure, yours has a Fort save, but it's also not variable. By late game, you're doing far more negative levels than Enervation is.

Freedom of Movement. Wizards and Sorcerers don't get it. You do. Immunity to grappling, immunity to Grease, immunity to Slow, immunity to Entangled... all kinds of fun.

Trace Teleport. Makes Port n Pwn much more fun when you can do it back to them.

Anchored Navigation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/anchoredNavigation.htm) can completely trivialize entire campaigns if a major plot point is getting stuck in a maze that constantly shifts. You will always know how to get back out. Yes, even then.

Modify Memory. Do I really need to go any further? It's a 'do anything you want and get away with it' power.

[Fax Celestis]

Also, a save-or-die that isn't a [Death] effect. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/deathUrge.htm) And personality parasite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/personalityParasite.htm) is basically schism, screw you edition. Yes, with mag-psi transparency, it works on spellcasters too.

From Untapped Potential
Intellect feast is basically strength of my enemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/strengthofMyEnemy.htm), except with Intelligence damage/bonus and tentacles, which increases your power DCs.

From Hyperconscious
Head trip is basically psionic sequester with a shorter duration and an [Evil] tag, but it has the happy side-effect of leaving your target completely helpless, free for CdGing.
Sensorineural cascade is blindness/deafness that works on creatures with tremorsense, blindsense, mindsight...everything.
Shatter storm is psionic fireball, except 5d6 of the damage is slashing damage, and it augments any kind of energy damage you like at a 1pp:1d6 rate. You can even mix and match.

From CPsi
Implanted suggestion is basically contingent suggestion, which is amazingly awesome for stuff like breaking and entering (hit all the guards with suggestions to go to the bathroom at 9:15), assassination (suggest that the king's guards do nothing while someone else kills the king), jury tampering (suggest that the jury find the defendant not guilty), and more.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, a save-or-die that isn't a [Death] effect. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/deathUrge.htm) And personality parasite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/personalityParasite.htm) is basically schism, screw you edition. Yes, with mag-psi transparency, it works on spellcasters too. With the caveat that it may only take purely mental actions. Which means it cannot cast anything with Verbal, Somatic, or Material components. So the caster in question would need to have either spontaneous casting AND Still spell And Silent spell AND a method of using them and still only taking a standard action *AND* Eschew Materials, or have prepared a Still Silent spell AND has Eschew Materials.

Not likely, but theoretically possible.

[Fax Celestis]

With the caveat that it may only take purely mental actions. Which means it cannot cast anything with Verbal, Somatic, or Material components. So the caster in question would need to have either spontaneous casting AND Still spell And Silent spell AND a method of using them and still only taking a standard action *AND* Eschew Materials, or have prepared a Still Silent spell AND has Eschew Materials.

Not likely, but theoretically possible.

Well, or, say, the Spontaneous Divinations ACF for a wizard. Or (lol) Spell Mastery a couple times.

[Rubik]

I love the 4th level power list, both general and disciplines.

The level that really sucks arse? 5th. Other than True Seeing, Second Chance (Seer) and (maybe) Ectoplasmic Shambler, there's not a single power I'd EVER want as a power known. Seriously. Get it on a power stone (Psionic Revivify) or not at all.

And PsyRef? Psionic Contingency + PsyRef or Linked Power + PsyRef and you can have whatever powers and feats you want, whenever you want. I keep that on my list at all times after I get it.

And...why on earth would you go egoist if you can't have Metamorphosis? It's THE reason to become an egoist. Nothing else on the list is worth taking if you don't have it aside from Psionic Revivify, period. The other powers that you'd want to take are better to grab from the psywar list.

[Flickerdart]

Really? You wouldn't want Anticipatory Strike?

[Rubik]

Really? You wouldn't want Anticipatory Strike?

Nah. Way too cheesy.

And I was talking about the stuff in the XPH anyway.

And Celerity's good enough, especially with things like Linked Power.

[Con_Brio1993]

(And if you can't come up with a use for Quintessence, you're not trying hard enough)


I'm curious, what are some good uses for a 1 inch diameter time bubble?

[Fax Celestis]

Here's one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121334).

[Flickerdart]

I'm curious, what are some good uses for a 1 inch diameter time bubble?
1 bubble? Try 1 bubble for every bunch of PP you have left over at the end of the day. That adds up.

[Con_Brio1993]

1 bubble? Try 1 bubble for every bunch of PP you have left over at the end of the day. That adds up.

Ah I see. For some reason my mind always focuses on 1 use of the spell.

[Psyren]

I'm curious, what are some good uses for a 1 inch diameter time bubble?

The most simple: pour any PP you have left over at the end of any day into this power, and pour the results into your bag of holding. Each inch weighs an ounce - if you do this long enough, you'll have a huge mass of time goop to dump on someone's head and crush them from high up.

Then there's preservation - food and drink, corpses, clones, volatile chemicals/poisons (e.g. Bebilith Venom if you act fast enough), even living creatures; you name it. Fill your portable hole with the stuff - anytime you need to transport something (a dead pal for revivification/last breath, a group of party members for mass-transit where suffocation is a possiblity, etc.), toss them in for full immersion. Or that ally who's been kissed by a Vargouille.

Then, imprisonment: You've knocked out that enemy wizard or psion etc. but you're worried that they'll be a handful when they wake up. You're good-aligned so you'd rather not kill or mutilate them, but you also want to keep the people safe from any escape attempts. Well, they won't be taking any adverse actions once you shunt them outside of time. The same is true of those pesky evil magic items and artifacts; keep them harmlessly sealed until you're high enough level to deal with them permanently. Make enough and you can even keep the Tarrasque from waking up until you have the Wish you need to keep him down.

Any number of plot devices can be assisted with quintessence - it stops the clock on anything with a time-limit that you can dunk in it, from sick kings to possessed children to crumbling seals.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, or, say, the Spontaneous Divinations ACF for a wizard. Or (lol) Spell Mastery a couple times.

Still need Eschew Materials or a spell with no material components. Not too common, actually.

[Rubik]

There are always Delayed Blast Fireball. Use an ounce to cover each bead, and you've got a nice little grenade to hurl at your enemies.

[Tenno Seremel]

Mind's eye has Britte Psyche but it's for Psychic warrior, Crystal Lodge for Shapers. For Psions… Darkness cloak, Pulverize, Sardior's Calling, Sardior's Mount, and Sardior's Presence.