Viable Monks? [PF]

[Volos]

Monks have gotten the short end of the quarterstaff more often then not. Fluff wise they are brave souls who take on terrible foes without armor or weapons, using their superior martial skill and mental focus to help 'close the gap'. Stat wise this almost never happens without a great deal of cheese. Or atleast this was until Pathfinder's Ultimate Combat. Within Ultimate Combat there are a varriety of Combat Style Feats for Monks to take advantage of, and even a new achetype which allows them to use more than one of these styles at a time and grants access to these feats much earlier than normal. Let's take a look at some of the possibilites and at what level they occur.

2nd Level Monk (Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte) : Can automatically, no check or action required, turn aside one melee attack per turn and then take AoO against attacking foe as long as he was fighting defensively, which is now only a -1 Attack penalty for +3 AC bonus for him. The AoO resolves after the attack is deflected but before any other attack or action the foe can take, so tripping ones foe effectively stops a full attack. A human monk at 3rd level can have both Combat Expertise and Improved Trip.

3nd Level Monk (Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Power Attack) : Uses 1 and 1/2 Str Bonus on Unarmed Strikes, first attack each round uses double Str Bonus, can Power Attack with unarmed strikes at a -1 Atk for +3 damage just like a Barbarian would do with a Greatsword, and his Stunning Fist attempts leave opponents shaken for 1d4 + Str Bonus rounds. At 6th level his unarmed strike can attack in a 15ft cone and leave foes shaken for 1d4 rounds.

Those seem pretty mean, especially since being a Master of Many Styles means that one does not have to wait until PreReqs are met before taking Combat Styles feats, one simply needs to use the Monk Bonus feats to obtain them. All three crane style feats can be taken by level 2, since Crane Style's PreReqs are met at level 1 and can be taken as one's first level feat. Other styles are more difficult to complete, but based on one's build it may not be required to have all three feats from any given style.

So my question is; Are Master of Many Styles Monks as viable a choice as Paladin, Ranger, or Barbarian? Or are Monks still too weak to compare?

[Blisstake]

For most optimization levels: Yes
For high optimization: I'm not positive, but I think still yes! (Although not at the level of Wizards of course)

The combat style feats can really make a versatile character, or one that can inflict pretty impressive amounts of damage with a full attack (Monk of Four Winds + Master of Many Styles). They even get the ability to do a teleport full-attack if they take UC's dimensional agility line of feats. The tetori archetype in UC also gives them incredibly impressive grappling abilities that can overcome every grappler's greatest fear: freedom of movement and teleportation.

And don't forget the contributions of the APG and UM. Brass Knuckles especially have made it easier for monks to get a simple enhancement bonus to all their attacks, instead of having to rely on the pricey amulet of many fists.

They still suffer when they can't get a full attack, but they do have certain options when that's not the case, like combat maneuvers, stunning fist, or Scorpion Style to help control the battle.

[Krazzman]

I like the combination of Qingong and Master of many styles (gotta check if that is going to work, I would like to do one) since with Qingong you can get yourself some spells and with many styles your style feats are awesome.

Fluffwise the monk is awesome and at least in our rounds he seems to be a " can be powerful class " since the mentality of most of our group is Fighters and Monks are better as wizards, lulz....
But then again melee cheese is not allowed, and our wizard do all his stuff....freely....

But B2T:
One guy here designed a Monk BBEG that was pretty damn nice with 2 styles to make all pcs sickened, dazed, frozen and so on, seemed cool.

[Ravens_cry]

I think they made them pretty viable at a surprising number of different optimization levels.
If you ask this one, the archetype that needs love now is the two weapon ranger.

[marcielle]

He gets spells. He's fine.:smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

He gets spells. He's fine.:smallbiggrin:
Which just proves spells ain't everything.

[Tvtyrant]

I think they made them pretty viable at a surprising number of different optimization levels.
If you ask this one, the archetype that needs love now is the two weapon ranger.

You mean other than Swift Hunter and a level for pounce?

[Daftendirekt]

You mean other than Swift Hunter and a level for pounce?

Yeah, cloistered cleric dip and swift hunter already make rangers pretty solid.

[Novawurmson]

You mean other than Swift Hunter and a level for pounce?

For Pathfinder-only.

I've been working on an Archetype for the Ranger to turn them into 3.5 Scouts.

[Tokuhara]

Monk will forever be a class of whom Pathfinder almost made awesome. Emphasis on almost.

He still has 3/4 BAB, which for a melee-oriented character is bad
He still has some class features that are a fantastic flop
He still is conflicted in what in Charile Sheen's holy name it wants to be doing every turn.

not saying I don't love monk, it just needs work

[Curious]

Monk will forever be a class of whom Pathfinder almost made awesome. Emphasis on almost.

He still has 3/4 BAB, which for a melee-oriented character is bad
He still has some class features that are a fantastic flop
He still is conflicted in what in Charile Sheen's holy name it wants to be doing every turn.

not saying I don't love monk, it just needs work

Eh? These are kind of exactly the things the new stuff Pathfinder has released fixes. Flurry gives Full BAB. Dimensional Dervish allows for move + full attack. Crappy abilities are traded out for much better ki abilities, which you can replenish with Hungry Ghost. Much better.

[Tokuhara]

Eh? These are kind of exactly the things the new stuff Pathfinder has released fixes. Flurry gives Full BAB. Dimensional Dervish allows for move + full attack. Crappy abilities are traded out for much better ki abilities, which you can replenish with Hungry Ghost. Much better.

Quick question:

I plan on playing a Pandaren (WoW d20) "Master of the Four Winds" 17 (so I don't disqualify myself)/Monk PrC 3

I plan on focusing on Boar and Turtle style, using my Elemental Fist to slap people around with my infamous "Toxic Panda Style" Feel free to laugh

How well would I function and what PrC should I take to make me a Pseudo-Runemaster?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Eh? These are kind of exactly the things the new stuff Pathfinder has released fixes. Flurry gives Full BAB. Dimensional Dervish allows for move + full attack. Crappy abilities are traded out for much better ki abilities, which you can replenish with Hungry Ghost. Much better.

It's still only an almost. They suck at attacking if they move without using Abundant Step. They still have a d8 hit die. They still have 4+int skill ranks per level.

Seriously, a TWF ranger with a quarterstaff and thematically appropriate spells can be as good at melee as an MoMS, at least when monsters start getting two attacks, and he has more skill points.

@Tokuhara: ...You didn't ask a question. :smallconfused:

[Tokuhara]

@Tokuhara: ...You didn't ask a question. :smallconfused:

fixed it. Asleep at the wheel

[Curious]

Quick question:

I plan on playing a Pandaren (WoW d20) "Master of the Four Winds" 17 (so I don't disqualify myself)/Monk PrC 3

I plan on focusing on Boar and Turtle style, using my Elemental Fist to slap people around with my infamous "Toxic Panda Style" Feel free to laugh

How well would I function and what PrC should I take to make me a Pseudo-Runemaster?

Master of the Four Winds, eh? Well, I haven't really examined that one in detail, here are some general tips involving Qinggong Monk if you have class features to spare.

-Gaseous Form is great, trade it for High Jump if possible.
-Cold Ice Strike is an excellent swift action ability. Trade Tongue of the Sun and Moon or Quivering Palm for it.
-Make Sure you still get Dimensional Dervish.

Can't speak as to runemastery, so you'll have to use your own judgement.


It's still only an almost. They suck at attacking if they move without using Abundant Step. They still have a d8 hit die. They still have 4+int skill ranks per level.

Seriously, a TWF ranger with a quarterstaff and thematically appropriate spells can be as good at melee as an MoMS, at least when monsters start getting two attacks, and he has more skill points.

There are a few things MoMS can do that a TWF ranger can't (Panther style + Crane Style = free attacks on everyone) but in general, yeah, you're right. But still, for a Monk it is pretty impressive.

[Tokuhara]

Master of the Four Winds, eh? Well, I haven't really examined that one in detail, here are some general tips involving Qinggong Monk if you have class features to spare.

-Gaseous Form is great, trade it for High Jump if possible.
-Cold Ice Strike is an excellent swift action ability. Trade Tongue of the Sun and Moon or Quivering Palm for it.
-Make Sure you still get Dimensional Dervish.

Can't speak as to runemastery, so you'll have to use your own judgement.


I lose Stunning Fist for an upgrading Elemental Fist (Acid in my case), Abundant Step for Slow Time, and Timeless Body for Aspect Mastery (Ki-rin in my case)

Dimensional Dervish is a duh ability

I'm thinking 3 levels of Tattooed Monk

[Curious]

I lose Stunning Fist for an upgrading Elemental Fist (Acid in my case), Abundant Step for Slow Time, and Timeless Body for Aspect Mastery (Ki-rin in my case)

Dimensional Dervish is a duh ability

I'm thinking 3 levels of Tattooed Monk

You can't get dimensional dervish without Abundant Step. :smallannoyed:

Ah, well. Ask your DM if you can't combine Hungry Ghost with Four Winds, since the only class feature they both change is Stunning Fist. Grab the following Ki abilities-

Slow Fall - Barkskin
High Jump - Gaseous Form
Quivering Palm - Abundant Step (this qualifies you to gain Dimensional Dervish
again)
Tongue of the Sun and Moon - Cold Ice Strike.

That should be solid.

[Tokuhara]

You can't get dimensional dervish without Abundant Step. :smallannoyed:

Ah, well. Ask your DM if you can't combine Hungry Ghost Quingong Monk with Four Winds, since the only class feature they both change is Stunning Fist. Grab the following Ki abilities-

Slow Fall - Barkskin
High Jump - Gaseous Form
Quivering Palm - Abundant Step (this qualifies you to gain Dimensional Dervish
again)
Tongue of the Sun and Moon - Cold Ice Strike.

That should be solid.

Fixed it for you.

And he said I already have 2 Archetypes. I can now only take an ACF

[Curious]

Fixed it for you.

And he said I already have 2 Archetypes. I can now only take an ACF

Meant Hungry Ghost and Qinggong. Just trade Wholeness of Body out for Ki Leech then. That's the most important ability.

[Tokuhara]

Meant Hungry Ghost and Qinggong. Just trade Wholeness of Body out for Ki Leech then. That's the most important ability.

I'd have to drop both Archetypes, unless I can come up with a dang good Backstory reason and a creative name

[Curious]

I'd have to drop both Archetypes, unless I can come up with a dang good Backstory reason and a creative name

Wut? Why? All your doing is learning an ability which allows you to regain some of your own internal energy when you strike a particularly devastating blow or kill someone. This requires you to re-write your entire character background?

[Tokuhara]

Wut? Why? All your doing is learning an ability which allows you to regain some of your own internal energy when you strike a particularly devastating blow or kill someone. This requires you to re-write your entire character background?

Pandaren are a peaceful folk.

I had a thought:

Hungry Ghost, Quinggong, and another Archetype focused on filling out the rest of my questionable class abilities. I commune with spirits.

and I neglected to add the last ability of monk of the four winds: Immortality. If I die of violence, I am reincarnated instantly. I cannot age. All of this instead of being treated as an outsider

[Paul H]

Hi

I hadn't a hope in Hells on understanding how to play a monk, and have never done so.

Zen Archer changed that. OK, not quite the melee monk, and you do lose some of the special abilities, but you become an awesome archer! "Legolas? Bloody amateur"!

Changing you flurry to "Flurry of Bows" is better than the usual manyshot tree, especially if you're using a mighty comp longbow (adding str to damage). And you use Wis to hit (not Dex).

AT 3rd (or 5th)? lvl you can AoO with your bow.

Was thinking Human Synthesist 1/Zen Archer xxx

Thanks
Paul H

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hi

I hadn't a hope in Hells on understanding how to play a monk, and have never done so.

Zen Archer changed that. OK, not quite the melee monk, and you do lose some of the special abilities, but you become an awesome archer! "Legolas? Bloody amateur"!

Changing you flurry to "Flurry of Bows" is better than the usual manyshot tree, especially if you're using a mighty comp longbow (adding str to damage). And you use Wis to hit (not Dex).

AT 3rd (or 5th)? lvl you can AoO with your bow.

Was thinking Human Synthesist 1/Zen Archer xxx

Thanks
Paul H

Ranged Flurry requires Ki. Ranger comes out ahead in archery.

[KutuluKultist]

Ranged Flurry requires Ki. Ranger comes out ahead in archery.

No, it doesn't and no, they don't.

[charcoalninja]

Especially if your Zen archer takes Combat Patrol. Now he threatens everyone within a short but respectable range and takes AOOs with his bow never having to worry about moving around.

[Blyte]

seems that a MoMS, crane+snake combo would be sound.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No, it doesn't and no, they don't.

Oh yeah, that's for extra damage. But rangers are still almost as good at archery, and get bonuses for being in certain environments (and unless you're in the middle of a crossroads between a desert, grassland, the Underdark, a forest, a jungle, and a swamp, it's pretty safe to say that those are relevant), and have more skill points.

[KutuluKultist]

Rangers make great archers, but just not quite as great as zen archer monks. Five reasons: 1) flurry comes with less penalties, 2) the ability to get extra attacks by spending ki, 3) the ability to do unarmed damage by spending ki (usually you're better off with the extra attack, but DR can change that.), 4) point blank master, which rangers can't get and 5) the ability to threaten with a bow.

All in all, I think matters are pretty clear, when it comes to archery.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Rangers make great archers, but just not quite as great as zen archer monks. Five reasons: 1) flurry comes with less penalties, 2) the ability to get extra attacks by spending ki, 3) the ability to do unarmed damage by spending ki (usually you're better off with the extra attack, but DR can change that.), 4) point blank master, which rangers can't get and 5) the ability to threaten with a bow.

All in all, I think matters are pretty clear, when it comes to archery.

1) I don't think PF Manyshot adds additional penalties.
2) Okay, fine.
3) Also good.
4)

Special: Starting at 6th level, a ranger with the archery com at style may select Point Blank Master as a combat style feat, but he must have Weapon Focus instead of Weapon Specialization in the selected weapon.
Also, it's not that good.
5) that generally doesn't matter when you're far away like you should be.

[KutuluKultist]

1) I don't think PF Manyshot adds additional penalties.

True.


"Rangers get it"
Also, it's not that good.

Given the step up chain, it's something I'd rather have then not. But the point is moot, anyway.



5) that generally doesn't matter when you're far away like you should be.
A lot of combat happens in situations of limited space, e.g. indoors, but this is a minor point in any case.

[Psyren]

Gifted Blade Soulbolt and its free +1 keen brilliant energy suppression shots that do slashing damage make them both cry.

[Tokuhara]

In a sick twist of irony, I really want to play a monk and prove the system wrong. Pandaren Monk, here I come!

[Paul H]

Hi

As the guy who mentions ZenArcher in first place, I believe that Zen Archers make far better archers than Rangers.

Rangers get Favoured Enemy. True, but remember that Zen Archer is a Specialist Archer, Rangers are far more versatile on the whole, just not as specialist in archery as Zen Archer.

Which is an alternate monk class [bringing us back on topic]!

Thanks
Paul H

[Blisstake]

Hi

As the guy who mentions ZenArcher in first place, I believe that Zen Archers make far better archers than Rangers.

Rangers get Favoured Enemy. True, but remember that Zen Archer is a Specialist Archer, Rangers are far more versatile on the whole, just not as specialist in archery as Zen Archer.

Which is an alternate monk class [bringing us back on topic]!

Thanks
Paul H

Okay, but what if you operate under the assumption that the Guided weapon property is not available for whatever reason?

[NamelessNPC]

Zen archers get that ^ as a class feature at lvl 3

[Doc Roc]

What level do Zen Archer's come online?

[Psyren]

What level do Zen Archer's come online?

It's an archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) for the base class, so... level 1?

Unless you mean the Wis to attack thing specifically, which is level 3.

[Doc Roc]

It's an archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) for the base class, so... level 1?

Unless you mean the Wis to attack thing specifically, which is level 3.

I mean when does it get cool, in your opinion?

[Psyren]

I mean when does it get cool, in your opinion?

Wis to attack is great; however, the "cool" ability for me comes in at 5th level, when you can spend a ki point as a swift and swap out the normal damage dice for your arrows with your unarmed strike dice. This works even with a shortbow, and since most monk PrCs advance your unarmed strike it will work with them too.