Simple solution to low-level feat economy? PEACH

[Veklim]

OK, there's been a few times over the last months where I've looked down the list of threads, and there's someone trying to 'fix the crappy feats' again. In the last such instance, I put down a couple of thoughts on the subject, and would like to present them to the ever mercurial opinions of the GitP for a once over.

These feats are low level, they don't scale, they provide minimal in-game differences rather quickly, and become completely obsolete the moment you can gain access to the non-sucking feats of levels 6+. As such, my theory is simple. Instead of completely rewriting a whole bunch of feats to try and make them stronger/scale/just-not-suck, I've thought to simply merge some of the basics instead. Most if not all of these feats are prolific requirements for other feats/classes so to make them worth our time, they now double up....


Hardy [General]
You are made of tougher stuff.
Requirements: Con 12+
Benefit: You gain 1HP +1HP/HD and a +2 bonus to fortitude saves.
Special: This feat works retroactively on HP and counts as both the Toughness and Great Fortitude feats for the purpose of meeting feat/class requirements.

Quick [General]
You react to physical threats with uncanny speed.
Requirements: Dex 12+
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC with an additional +1 (dodge) against one specified opponent. You also gain a +2 to reflex saves.
Special: This feat counts as both the Dodge and Lightning Reflexes feats for the purpose of meeting feat/class requirements.

Intuitive [General]
Your mental awareness gives momentary insights to unseen threats.
Requirements: Wis 12+
Benefit: You gain +2 to will saves and the effects of the blind-fight feat.
Special: This feat counts as both the Blind-fight and Iron Will feats for the purpose of meeting feat/class requirements.

Alacritous Combatant [General]
Practice and training have made joining combat a fluid and flawless process.
Requirements: BAB +1
Benefit: You gain +4 to initiative checks and the ability to draw/sheathe a weapon as a free action, draw/sheathe a hidden weapon as a move action or gain full iterative attacks with thrown weapons.
Special: This feat counts as both the Quick Draw and Improved Initiative feats for the purpose of meeting feat/class requirements.

Stubborn [General]
You refuse to accept defeat where others would have no choice.
Requirements: Base Fort save +2
Benefit: You gain +4 to checks and saves to resist non-lethal damage and on massive damage saves, and you may sleep without penalty in light and medium armours. Furthermore you instantly stabilise if dropped to between -1 and -9 HP, may act as if disabled instead of losing consciousness in this state and may take a standard action (albeit for 1HP of damage) or a move action whilst doing so. You still die if reduced to -10HP or less.
Special: This feat counts as both the Endurance and Diehard feats for the purpose of meeting feat/class requirements, as well as replacing the standard Endurance bonus feat given to classes like the Ranger.


[EDIT LOG]
Tweaked Hardy to 1HP +1HP/HD
Added Stubborn to the mix
Added massive damage saves to list of +4 boni from Stubborn
Changed requirements to 12s instead of 13s on Hardy, Quick & Intuitive

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I like the idea of combining these feats, but I don't think that both combining them and enhancing them is warranted. Also, the feats you're combining don't normally have ability score prerequisites, and I think that's for a reason: Toughness is for characters with low Constitution.

I like combining Great Fortitude/Improved Toughness, Lightning Reflexes/Dodge, and Quick Draw/Improved Initiative-- but I think combining Blind Fighting with Iron Will is a thematic mismatch. What about Diehard, instead? It's normally based on Endurance, but I think it's a better fit.

You could probably run wild going through the core feat lists in 3.X and PF, combining all of the the stupid weak feats into good feats. Pathfinder improved Skill Focus and the +2/+2 feats considerably, but they're still weak options compared to... almost anything else, really.

[Coidzor]

Seems a valid option as any so far. Especially since there are so many crappy feats you could combine. Although at that point it kinda reminds me of the whole idea I recall reading from Sean K Reynolds of dividing Feats into the crap and the worthwhile ones and allowing between 2 and 4 of the crap ones to be taken together or one of the good ones or having a second feat progression based upon HD for the crappy ones.

Reminds me of how my DM was planning on just combining Dodge and Mobility since they both were so craptacular and necessary for spring attack anyway and how Precise Shot and Point Blank Shot were combined into one feat because Precise Shot made a lot more sense as the pre-requisite feat to other abilities than something that gave a +1 to damage.

[Eldan]

I think it works, really.

That said, I think my house rule would just be to divide feats into "New Ability Feats" and "Numeric Bonus feats".

Numeric bonus feats are those that "Add +2 to X", while "New Ability feats" let your character do something he couldn't do before. Power Attack. Quicken Spell. Bind Vestige. Then I'd probably just hand them out separately.

[Veklim]

In previous campaigns I've been known to offer players feat training at certain points of downtime in the game. The group had only one rule as to which feats they may train 'only feats with either no requirements, or feats with only ability score or skill rank requirements'. Surprisingly, many of them went straight for these 'crappy' feats time and again, saying they were a waste of a feat, unless they were 'going for free'.


That said, I think my house rule would just be to divide feats into "New Ability Feats" and "Numeric Bonus feats". I have toyed with pretty much that, but then I need to re-write or introduce much new stuff. This solution allows me to keep the rules as they are, not even worrying about requirement wierdness or too much game balance breakage.


Toughness is for characters with low Constitution. I disagree. Toughness is there to represent a higher-than-normal physical toughness, same as lightning reflexes represents a faster-than-normal reflex. If these are things your character wants, then they shuoldn't have low scores in those stats. 13+ con is NOT much of a stretch anyhow, I've seen few characters drop much lower in all my years playing/DMing.


What about Diehard, instead? It's normally based on Endurance, but I think it's a better fit. Actually, I was going to merge Endurance and Diehard next, I chose blindfight because it SHOULD have a wisdom requirement honestly.

[Eldan]

What about a general feat from the psionic SRD, maybe, instead of a core one?

Closed Mind, Force of Will, Hostile Mind would all work with Iron Will.

[Reluctance]

This may be the first time I've seen Improved Initiative called a crappy feat.

Giving improved Improved Toughness is not necessary. 1 HP + 1 HP/lvl, perfectly mimics a larger die size, while being nearly as good for the original Toughness feat for the first level casters it was theoretically designed for. Two die step sizes is a bit much, especially when bundled with another half-feat bonus.

PrC prereqs might be mucked with, since many of those require crap feats as an entry tax. That's more easily handled on a case-by-case basis for a home game than the nightmare that would result if this was official errata, though.

The biggest problem with this "solution" is one you cover in the intro, though. You make weaker feats more viable by bundling them, but that doesn't make them actually better over the long haul. Numerical feats need to scale to keep up with the fact that every other number scales as well.

[Gaiyamato]

I quite like the idea.

Hardy is a little powerful for a feat of it's type. +1HP/HD should be enough with a Fort bonus stacked on as well, with Improved Toughness as well that is +3HP/HD, throw in a good Con and D12 HD and that can add up to a lot of HP over time.

Also Quickdraw and Improved Initiative are actually quite good feats on their own depending on your build. In particular if you combine Flick Of The Wrist, sudden strike and/or sneak attack and some sort of poison it becomes almost instantly deadly. Combining them makes that feat quite overly powerful.

But the concept is certainly good. Quick and Intuitive I do like a lot.

[Yitzi]

I quite like the idea.

Hardy is a little powerful for a feat of it's type. +1HP/HD should be enough with a Fort bonus stacked on as well, with Improved Toughness as well that is +3HP/HD, throw in a good Con and D12 HD and that can add up to a lot of HP over time.

Actually, it's least useful to someone with a good CON and d12 HD, as such an individual has a lot of HP anyway, so the percentage increase per feat isn't that much.

[Veklim]

OK, good points made on Hardy, changed to 1/HD.

Alacritous Combatant is a little more powerful than the others, yes. The majority of builds mentioned which would use this best however, are generally considered lower-tier and underpowered, so I feel it's not that bad a thing.

The endurance/diehard thing is going up, pretty self explanitory tbh, endurance should have had diehard inbuilt anyway so I doubt that's a stretch.

If someone can give me a good fit for Intuitive to replace blindfight then cool, but I don't want anything too exotic, and personally I think it fits ok. I see Will as an inner-awareness, so to give an outer-awareness didn't seem out of place. Perhaps that's my existentialist coming out again though...?

Anyone have any other ideas/tweaks/outrageous criticisms? :smalltongue:

[Veklim]

The biggest problem with this "solution" is one you cover in the intro, though. You make weaker feats more viable by bundling them, but that doesn't make them actually better over the long haul. Numerical feats need to scale to keep up with the fact that every other number scales as well.

Whereas I know exactly what you're saying, I'm not wanting (also said in intro) to rewrite every low-end feat in core, just to make them worth having. I actually have nothing against early feats becoming obsolete at higher levels (many spells and a few class abilities do this too), what I feel is so bad about these feats is that they cost A WHOLE FEAT whereas they're closer to half of one. Hence this. It's a simple idea with easy application, and with the exception of the minor toughness & dodge tweaks, these are simply 2 core feats rolled into one.

I honestly think most of the classes to benefit best from these feats are the ones generally considered lower tiers, at least this way they can do a tiny little bit more with their limited options/actions/movements etc.

[Coidzor]

I disagree. Toughness is there to represent a higher-than-normal physical toughness, same as lightning reflexes represents a faster-than-normal reflex. If these are things your character wants, then they shuoldn't have low scores in those stats. 13+ con is NOT much of a stretch anyhow, I've seen few characters drop much lower in all my years playing/DMing.

You probably have seen that because CON is everyone's secondary stat... unless they're undead. However, there's no point in having a 13 over a 12, so if you're going to make it a requirement, just make it 12.

However, 3 HP is of more value to a person with a 1d4+1(or that kobold sorcerer with 1d4-1 HP) than someone with a 1d12+3, which is why the designers thought of it as a feat for 1st level wizards, so they could sell their future power in exchange for having slightly better survivability at very low level as blasters.

For anyone in the know, toughness just plain doesn't exist, as nothing about that is really... well, right is one way of putting it.


Hardy is a little powerful for a feat of it's type. +1HP/HD should be enough with a Fort bonus stacked on as well, with Improved Toughness as well that is +3HP/HD, throw in a good Con and D12 HD and that can add up to a lot of HP over time.

Relative to what was, sure, but not enough to outpace HP damage from credible threats. 4 more HP per level for 2/7 feats might just mean the dragon has to use one more attack of whichever full attack he kills you on to splatter you before turning the rest of it on your buddy that was trying to flank him.


Also Quickdraw and Improved Initiative are actually quite good feats on their own depending on your build. In particular if you combine Flick Of The Wrist, sudden strike and/or sneak attack and some sort of poison it becomes almost instantly deadly. Combining them makes that feat quite overly powerful.

One thing to remember about Quick Draw though is that it's the feat tax that throwing builds have to take in order to function at all and that its effects are largely replicated/replaced by the pre-requisite for taking it or a minor magical item, so it itself is pretty minor in general.

Improved Initiative is one that's strong enough that you certainly could attach something more minor and it'd still be attractive...

[jiriku]

These are great, in the category of "why-didn't-I-think-of-something-like-this?". I will, of course, be stealing them from you. I'd observe, though, that Stubborn is still a bad feat, because Endurance essentially does nothing, and Diehard does nothing unless you're in a situation that you never want to be in.

[Veklim]

These are greatThanks :smallbiggrin:


I will, of course, be stealing them from you.That's why they're up here, and not secreted away in one of my notebooks behind my monitor!


Stubborn is still a bad feat, because Endurance essentially does nothing, and Diehard does nothing unless you're in a situation that you never want to be in.
I know, but at least it's almost worth the feat now, and makes it slightly less annoying if you need these for pre-reqs. That and there's more than 1 unlikely situation where the feat you HAVE to take in order to reach your PrC might actually come into effect. I think I'll add the +4 to massive damage saves too, at least that can be relevant a little more often than -1 to -9 HP, especially at earlier levels...

@Coidzor
I do actually agree with a lot of what you've said, especially with regards to toughness being COMPLETELY pointless and rather poorly conceived, but it's still a feat requirement for dozens of PrCs and feats. These feats are designed to help reduce the crippling feat taxes certain builds have, without actually upsetting core OR game balance too much.

[PEACH]

While this doesn't totally eliminate feat tax, I do like the idea of combining minor feats together to get extra benefits, so I think this could work out pretty well.

[Gaiyamato]

These are great, in the category of "why-didn't-I-think-of-something-like-this?". I will, of course, be stealing them from you. I'd observe, though, that Stubborn is still a bad feat, because Endurance essentially does nothing, and Diehard does nothing unless you're in a situation that you never want to be in.

I kind of agree.

Perhaps throw in the "Will To Live" feat from Quintessential Barbarian?
You would be quite hard to kill then. Combined with pain mastery and a few other odds and ends (such as Fast Healing) a Barbarian with Stubborn and Hardy could take a lot of killing.


Actually, it's least useful to someone with a good CON and d12 HD, as such an individual has a lot of HP anyway, so the percentage increase per feat isn't that much.

You have it backwards.
Someone with low can and low HD is going to have (or should have) magic/psionics/incarnum stuff etc. or something like that.
There is no reason for someone who is weakly in that area to take anything to improve hp at all. It is a total waste for them.

HP are useful for your front line grunts, your tanks. So that with just a few buffs from the caster hiding in the rear they can survive almost anything then.

A level 1 Barbarian with Hardy and 14 Con is going to have 1D12+3 hp which is not bad.

Level 20 with Hardy and Improved Toughness, 20 Con is 20D12+160 which is quite good really.

Also those of who are comparing a stock character on their own against a dragon are entirely missing both the point of DnD and how it works.
Compare a party of 4. A wizard, a cleric, a rogue type and a fighter/barbarian to a single dragon. Now it is an even match. Moreso the party should win.
All the front liners need is enough hp to survive which is where these feats become super useful.

[Veklim]

Perhaps throw in the "Will To Live" feat from Quintessential Barbarian?As much as this pains me to say, I'm not actually familiar with either the book or the feat. Breif synopsis perhaps?

[Gaiyamato]

It ignores the rest of the penalties that die hard does not, auto stabilizes you and you do not die until you reach - (10+con mod).

Requires Iron will normally.

[Yitzi]

You have it backwards.
Someone with low can and low HD is going to have (or should have) magic/psionics/incarnum stuff etc. or something like that.

And what happens when someone rolls a natural 20 and gets past their defenses? They might not need all that much, but they do need some (well, unless they decide to dump HP and make it up with Vigor or the like, but that's not normal.)

But that's not to say that their defenses are useless: Because of their good defenses, they lose HP slowly, meaning that each point of health is worth that much more. Whereas the high-CON high-HD guy will tend to have weaker defenses (after all, what's the point of spending on a lot of HP if you're not going to need them), and so each point lasts for less.

[Gaiyamato]

Not always so. You can make a tank that has high con, high hd with a lot of hp, very good saves and AC. Make him very hard to kill. Give him a paired ring of shielding with the mage or some-such and the mage can essentially borrow hp form him.

Tanks have a LOT of uses for very high hp. Even an extra 1 or 2 per level can add up and make a difference later on.

Whereas the mage has much less need for it. A decent mage/psion can stack so many protective spells that even getting near him, let alone hurting him can be hard without a disjunction spell or dozens of dispel magic.
Or he can use items, like the paired shielding rings or some other trick to protect himself.

Also you are forgetting that IC wise the fluff for toughness is that it represents someone who is extremely tough and can take a beating.
So really it is the sort of feat that Barbarians/Fighters/Paladins/Monks/Rangers with good con tend to take - in terms of fluff anyway.

A wizard who takes any feat to improve his hp is either desperate or silly.
I once had a level 12 Wizard with 4 hp who actually did quite well. Just.. had to be very paranoid... :smalltongue: lol

[Veklim]

If I were to add the -(10+Con mod) threshold to Stubborn, would that give it enough you reckon? I'm worried it's too much in the other direction.
IC wise the fluff for toughness is that it represents someone who is extremely tough and can take a beating.Absolutely, that's why I never saw why a wizard was 'meant' to be the one taking it. Personally I think it's the mid-combat characters who benefit the most, like my Crab Samurai build using stupid-pumped AC and saves with Hida's Rage, then he'd sac half his HP over 3 rounds to pump damage through the roof. So IMO, it's a better choice for fighter by FAR.

[Yitzi]

Not always so. You can make a tank that has high con, high hd with a lot of hp, very good saves and AC. Make him very hard to kill. Give him a paired ring of shielding with the mage or some-such and the mage can essentially borrow hp form him.

And then his weak point will still not be running out of HP (it'll be the mage running out, since if the ring of shielding works like shield other it only transfers half the damage.)


Tanks have a LOT of uses for very high hp.

I haven't heard any yet...


Whereas the mage has much less need for it. A decent mage/psion can stack so many protective spells that even getting near him, let alone hurting him can be hard without a disjunction spell or dozens of dispel magic.

But what if someone does?

And why would someone need dozens of dispels anyway? A single dispel can "attack" every spell that's on him?


Also you are forgetting that IC wise the fluff for toughness is that it represents someone who is extremely tough and can take a beating.
So really it is the sort of feat that Barbarians/Fighters/Paladins/Monks/Rangers with good con tend to take - in terms of fluff anyway.

It means someone who's tougher than their class and constitution would suggest.


A wizard who takes any feat to improve his hp is either desperate or silly.

Of course. But someone who spends a feat to add another 5% to his hit points isn't being too smart either.