Practical advantages a dex build has over a str build? (melee)

[Icestorm245]

So I just had this character idea that I just love.

Swordsage 3/Rogue 3/Swashbuckler3/Invisible Blade 5.

Yeah this build probably floats around a lot. Obviously the idea of it is to do a lot of damage in a more classy (no pun intended) way than a Fighter 11 would do with fullplate and a two handed weapon. The two key feats being Shadow Blade, and Daring Outlaw. Take a lot in bluff, and feint your way to victory using a lot of sneak attack damage.

The problems with this build are common ones SA users have: Undead, constructs and oozes. A fighter beats them in this regard, no questions asked. In everything else, would it be about the same or far greater with the IB?

[Psyren]

I don't know much about the merits of IB specifically, but to answer your question, dex-fighters have:

- Higher AC
- Higher Initiative
- Can switch to ranged attacks (including spells) more easily
- Can qualify for some feats and succeed at some skill tricks more easily

Strength adds to-hit and damage but little else.

[Ernir]

The problems with this build are common ones SA users have: Undead, constructs and oozes. A fighter beats them in this regard, no questions asked. In everything else, would it be about the same or far greater with the IB?

I'm... not sure, to be honest.

You have more skill-monkey ability than an equally leveled Fighter, but I wouldn't expect substantially more damage (or other kinds of combat supremacy).

Mostly because the Fighter 11 wouldn't be paying the horribad feat tax that the IB has. Seriously, the IB blows away three of your four (+1 if human, +2 if flaws are allowed) free feats. That doesn't leave a lot to build awesome combat potential on.
I think the IB is cool too, it's just very expensive for what it offers.
Especially after the CWar Errata. :smallyuk:

Psyren listed the secondary benefits of having a high Dex, but I'd look into switching to a pure Daring Outlaw build (nothing but a mix of Rogue and Swashbuckler), a dexterity-Swordsage build, or a Rogue/Swordsage build.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't know much about the merits of IB specifically, but to answer your question, dex-fighters have:

- Higher AC
- Higher Initiative
- Can switch to ranged attacks (including spells) more easily
- Can qualify for some feats and succeed at some skill tricks more easily

Strength adds to-hit and damage but little else.

Many abilities like tripping are based off of strength checks as well.

[Essence_of_War]

It also sort of depends on what version of the IB you're using, and if you mind using mostly daggers.

If you use the RAW one, with the AWFUL and out of place feat tax, I'd strongly consider something else.

My group usually uncaps the unfettered defense, or at least raises the cap to double class level, and drops both of the PB Shot and Far Shot requirements.

Edit: Another nice thing about the build you describe, is that if you have a high point buy, or access to lots of stat boosting items (through lots of money, or generous treasure) that build has a lot of MAD. You get str,dex, and int to damage, as well as wis/dex/int to AC. You get a lot out of having high dex (which Psyren outlined the perks of) and having a high int (which contributes to your skill monkey-ness as well) and the str/wis are gravy.

[Treblain]

For undead and constructs, wands of Gravestrike and Golemstrike. I don't know if wand chambers fit in daggers, though. Also, Penetrating Strike ACF.

You could use dual kukris, Improved Critical, and Telling Blow to crit-fish for sneak attacks against enemies you can't feint against.

[Psyren]

Many abilities like tripping are based off of strength checks as well.

True, yet even there Dex has advantages as well, by letting you resist or evade many of the special attacks that are based on strength. And most of those let you sub Dex with the right feats as well.

[Emperor Tippy]

-Higher AC
-Higher Initiative
-Higher Reflex Saves
-Easier switching to ranges attacks
-Certain feats that you qualify for.

Basically what Psyren said.

I personally like Dark Grey Elf Factotums for my "Dex" based builds, with perhaps a late dip into swordsage.

[Big Fau]

I just want to point out that the higher AC actually only applies at the lower levels, when enemies can't bypass it or overpower it easily.

Also, Dex-focused builds tend to have a significantly lower damage output.

[Tvtyrant]

I forgot that it also gives you more AoOs, although you won't be doing as much with one.

[John Campbell]

Base AC's not usually much different, because of the bizarre and nonsensical way 3.x handles Dex limits on armor... a Dex build's higher Dex bonus to AC is coming at the cost of armor bonus, so what it mainly means is that the Dex build has a similar overall AC, but a higher touch AC and lower flat-footed AC. But touch AC is more valuable than flat-footed, IME, and Dex builds are slightly less likely to be caught flat-footed, because of the higher initiative bonus. And a lot of them get Uncanny Dodge anyway.

[Optimator]

I heard that the invisible blade and master thrower were once one class but were split into two late in production Thus, the IB has a typo in its feat requirements. That's just hearsay though.

[Essence_of_War]

I heard this too, and I seem to remember it being from an interview with one of the designers.

I hope I'm not making that up, but it makes SO much sense.

[docnessuno]

-Higher AC
-Higher Initiative
-Higher Reflex Saves
-Easier switching to ranges attacks
-Certain feats that you qualify for.

Basically what Psyren said.

I personally like Dark Grey Elf Factotums for my "Dex" based builds, with perhaps a late dip into swordsage.

On top of that, Dex is the key stat for many more skills than strenght.

Also, depending on your source of "dex-to-damage", you might be able to apply your full modofier to offhand attacks instead of halving it.

[Essence_of_War]

Also, depending on your source of "dex-to-damage", you might be able to apply your full modofier to offhand attacks instead of halving it.

I'm quite sure that "Shadow Blade" does this, and moderately sure that CoCL does also.

Sidenote: Pretty sure you get this benefit with Swashbuckler's int-to-damage also.

[docnessuno]

I'm quite sure that "Shadow Blade" does this, and moderately sure that CoCL does also.

Sidenote: Pretty sure you get this benefit with Swashbuckler's int-to-damage also.

I'm sure on shadow blade and swashbuckler.

Basically when you "add" a stat to damage there's no halving. If that stat "replaces strenght", you do halve.

[Telonius]

Probably a very minor plus for a Dex-based over a Str-based but ... potentially higher success rate at escaping a Grapple, if Escape Artist is on the class list.

Str-based characters will only add BAB to the strength modifier (plus size modifier). A high-Dex character can make better use of Escape Artist to escape the grapple. That maxes out at Level + 3; 3 higher than the best BAB the high-strength character can get, all else equal. (Note that this does take a Standard Action, instead of an attack if you're doing a normal grapple check to escape grapple).

[Icestorm245]

So in the end dex just allows you to me much more versatile in different situations that may or may not involve combat. But str is always the way to go for pure damage, even though you suck at anything else. Thanks for the help guys!