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XxXU2XxX
2011-11-21, 11:01 PM
If Nale and Sabine knew where the Draketooth's are as this comic implies, why were they at the palace to begin with? Nale said he threw the ambush together at the last second, so the Linear Guild must have said some ulterior motive for being there in the first place. And it can't be because they thought Elan was exposing his brother's presence to their father, because that would contradict what Nale said previously. No, something fishy is afoot.

Maybe Haley is deducing wrong?

MesiDoomstalker
2011-11-21, 11:18 PM
They were there figuring out where the Draketooths were holed up at using Penelope as a starting and as cover. Since Penelope only was buried 1 week ago, they may not have had time to venture to Windy Valley yet and the Order's presence through a wrench into it.

I see no fish here.

NerfTW
2011-11-21, 11:21 PM
If Nale and Sabine knew where the Draketooth's are as this comic implies, why were they at the palace to begin with? Nale said he threw the ambush together at the last second, so the Linear Guild must have said some ulterior motive for being there in the first place. And it can't be because they thought Elan was exposing his brother's presence to their father, because that would contradict what Nale said previously. No, something fishy is afoot.

Maybe Haley is deducing wrong?

Probably. Or Penelope had some information that they needed about Orrin and his son. Maybe a detail that would allow them to gain his trust.

XxXU2XxX
2011-11-21, 11:28 PM
But Penelope died last week as comic 724 states, meaning Nale had all the information he needed at that point. Why risk sticking around the palace around his father and ally who wants him dead then?

What I'm getting at is, why head to Windy Canyon NOW when he could have last week when he had what he needed? What was his reasoning for holing up longer than necessary?

AutomatedTeller
2011-11-21, 11:29 PM
Maybe they were trying to get Thog released.

MesiDoomstalker
2011-11-21, 11:32 PM
But Penelope died last week as comic 724 states, meaning Nale had all the information he needed at that point. Why risk sticking around the palace around his father and ally who wants him dead then?

What I'm getting at is, why head to Windy Canyon NOW when he could have last week when he had what he needed? What was his reasoning for holing up longer than necessary?

We don't know. But in all probability he was planning one of his overly complicated plans to infiltrate and/or sneak into the Draketooth organization, perhaps as the girls baby maker. Nale is not like Roy, he doesn't take action ASAP. He makes carefully thought out, but completly convoluted and needlessly complicated plans, for everything of importance. Just data collecting on the Draketooths required one of his most powerful allies to be undercover right under his fathers nose and he and the rest of his group be dangerlessly close as well. Nale takes his time and doesn't rush things. Even with the Order's sudden appearence, he still waited long enough for a impromptu attack plan to be formulated before attacking.

XxXU2XxX
2011-11-21, 11:37 PM
Perhaps... There is also something else fishy I've noticed about all of Tarquin's flashback sequences. I don't want to bring attention to such a detail, but I've seen zero mention of it, so I'll just be as vague as possible and say all three of his flashbacks have something very... odd about them.

I'll most definitely name it specifically, but I'd like to see if anyone else had noticed it too before I do.

MesiDoomstalker
2011-11-21, 11:42 PM
Perhaps... There is also something else fishy I've noticed about all of Tarquin's flashback sequences. I don't want to bring attention to such a detail, but I've seen zero mention of it, so I'll just be as vague as possible and say all three of his flashbacks have something very... odd about them.

I'll most definitely name it specifically, but I'd like to see if anyone else had noticed it too before I do.

Please oblige us with this revelation. Some may have noticed it but are hesitant to mention it for the same reasons. The best way to find allies is to speak your mind so others may agree. But its also the best way to make enemies.

CoffeeIncluded
2011-11-21, 11:42 PM
Perhaps... There is also something else fishy I've noticed about all of Tarquin's flashback sequences. I don't want to bring attention to such a detail, but I've seen zero mention of it, so I'll just be as vague as possible and say all three of his flashbacks have something very... odd about them.

I'll most definitely name it specifically, but I'd like to see if anyone else had noticed it too before I do.

Is it the lack of dialogue? Is it that he barely appears in them? I'm sure if I thought about it I could figure it out, but I'm tired. :smalltongue: What did you notice?

XxXU2XxX
2011-11-21, 11:51 PM
Very well, I'll spill. All the flashbacks in 723, 758, and 816 in the desert. Which, I'm sure you'll say, makes sense because this region is 95% desert.

But still... why? Why is Tarquin running through the desert after being driven out. Ok, makes sense. But then 758 rolls around and he's meeting with his party in... the desert! This makes less sense. Why in the middle of the desert? NOW, we have the most recent comic and Draketooth is courting Penelope... in the desert? What? Also, their house appears to be in the middle of the desert as well.

Sandedge and Bleedingham are civilized areas surrounded by walls to keep the desert at bay, which makes sense. So why are all these characters roaming around the open desert! I suspect epic illusions are afoot...

CoffeeIncluded
2011-11-21, 11:54 PM
Hm. I'm not too sure about that one, to be honest. But we'll see!

MesiDoomstalker
2011-11-22, 12:05 AM
Very well, I'll spill. All the flashbacks in 723, 758, and 816 in the desert. Which, I'm sure you'll say, makes sense because this region is 95% desert.

But still... why? Why is Tarquin running through the desert after being driven out. Ok, makes sense. But then 758 rolls around and he's meeting with his party in... the desert! This makes less sense. Why in the middle of the desert? NOW, we have the most recent comic and Draketooth is courting Penelope... in the desert? What? Also, their house appears to be in the middle of the desert as well.

Sandedge and Bleedingham are civilized areas surrounded by walls to keep the desert at bay, which makes sense. So why are all these characters roaming around the open desert! I suspect epic illusions are afoot...

Well besides 723 lacking any kind of visual flashback, I can explain the others fairly well.

758 is some time after Tarquin's first crack at continental domination which ultimatly failed. Probably not too long afterwards, just long enough for him to contact his former allies and for them to gather. As a recently deposed head of state that forced alliance between many normally waring countries he would need to stay low-key. Hence in the middle of the desert where no one lays claim or wants to.

We've only seen 2 towns/countries in the desert. Is is completly impossible that not all of them are protected from the desert in the same way. It's possible that Penelope originally lived in an oasis that couldn't afford to put up a wall to keep the desert out. I see no reason why showing the desert in the window instead of a wall makes any difference here.

zimmerwald1915
2011-11-22, 12:06 AM
Hm. I'm not too sure about that one, to be honest. But we'll see!
IMHO, your oddities are more difficult to explain. The desert's a great place to lay low as long as you're well-supplied, since it's massive, featureless, and no one goes there. It'd make a fair gathering-place for old friends, or to flee your political enemies. Not so much to live, but Penelope could be from somewhere other than Bleedingham and Bleedingham might be exceptional in having walls (Sandsedge didn't have any), or Bleedinham's walls might be less than fifteen years old.

EDIT: ninja'd

Gloomy_Bloom
2011-11-22, 12:42 AM
Well, can someone explain why this Draketooth fellow is not red-haired? Because of illusion?
And why his wife remembered him red-haired if he always was in disguise?


P.S.:Sorry for my english, that's not my native language.

Juggling Goth
2011-11-22, 01:51 AM
Well, can someone explain why this Draketooth fellow is not red-haired? Because of illusion?
And why his wife remembered him red-haired if he always was in disguise?


P.S.:Sorry for my english, that's not my native language.

He is red-haired. In English, "red hair" covers all shades from light orange to dark reddish-brown. It doesn't literally mean "red" like the primary colour. Haley and Ian (when younger) have also been described as red-haired in the comic.

Gift Jeraff
2011-11-22, 02:11 AM
Maybe it has something to do with his lack of divine caster? Wouldn't want to go into a potential dungeon crawl without a healer, after all.

And now that I think about it, the Linear Guild's missing divine caster may help Nale to convince the Draketooths that he is on their side and the OOTS is against them, since Girard doesn't seem to think highly of the gods...

Gloomy_Bloom
2011-11-22, 02:31 AM
He is red-haired. In English, "red hair" covers all shades from light orange to dark reddish-brown. It doesn't literally mean "red" like the primary colour. Haley and Ian (when younger) have also been described as red-haired in the comic.

That's interesting, I never thought that orange is red. Thank you!

Trixie
2011-11-22, 05:55 AM
Very well, I'll spill. All the flashbacks in 723, 758, and 816 in the desert. Which, I'm sure you'll say, makes sense because this region is 95% desert.

But still... why? Why is Tarquin running through the desert after being driven out. Ok, makes sense. But then 758 rolls around and he's meeting with his party in... the desert! This makes less sense. Why in the middle of the desert? NOW, we have the most recent comic and Draketooth is courting Penelope... in the desert? What? Also, their house appears to be in the middle of the desert as well.

Sandedge and Bleedingham are civilized areas surrounded by walls to keep the desert at bay, which makes sense. So why are all these characters roaming around the open desert! I suspect epic illusions are afoot...

Or maybe, just maybe, Rich's current background library is all desert colours, and since the story takes place in desert country, he just slapped them on not feeling like wasting time on custom background in what is essentially an one-off exposition panel? :smallconfused:

Procyonpi
2011-11-22, 05:59 AM
Maybe it has something to do with his lack of divine caster? Wouldn't want to go into a potential dungeon crawl without a healer, after all.

And now that I think about it, the Linear Guild's missing divine caster may help Nale to convince the Draketooths that he is on their side and the OOTS is against them, since Girard doesn't seem to think highly of the gods...

Are we really sure that he doesn't think high of the gods in general, so much as just not highly of Paladins in general / Soon in specific?

zimmerwald1915
2011-11-22, 06:44 AM
Are we really sure that he doesn't think high of the gods in general, so much as just not highly of Paladins in general / Soon in specific?
He might have a higher opinion of the other pantheons, but he calls the Twelve Gods a "glorified petting zoo". Granted, that opinion is probably colored to a great extent by his opinion of Soon, but Girard's opinion could not have been terribly high to begin with even allowing for how large Soon looms in his mind as an exemplar of their worshippers and teachings.

mrmcfatty
2011-11-22, 07:28 AM
i dont think that he hates the pantheon itself, but hates the fact that everyone(at least everyone that has shown any interest in them) has been paladins that would do anything for them. So its his dislike of paladins that in turn fuels his dislike for the gods.

just my thought on it at least.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-22, 08:27 AM
Girard hates all authority, because no one can be trusted with it. Gods have some of the greatest authority available to any being in the OotS-verse. Why would he not hate the gods?

rbetieh
2011-11-22, 10:51 AM
If Nale and Sabine knew where the Draketooth's are as this comic implies, why were they at the palace to begin with? Nale said he threw the ambush together at the last second, so the Linear Guild must have said some ulterior motive for being there in the first place. And it can't be because they thought Elan was exposing his brother's presence to their father, because that would contradict what Nale said previously. No, something fishy is afoot.

Maybe Haley is deducing wrong?

Most likely, not enough resources at their disposal to complete the quest. Nale likes to recruit to the point where he has a very high likelihood of success before he commits. I figure he went after Elan after he discovered that Roy and Belkar were out of the picture. The Level Draining wand wouldnt have knocked either of those out of a fight after all. And he is still out a divine caster, with Leeky and Hilgya quitting, maybe he was still looking for a cleric.

Jay R
2011-11-22, 10:57 AM
But Penelope died last week as comic 724 states, meaning Nale had all the information he needed at that point. Why risk sticking around the palace around his father and ally who wants him dead then?

What I'm getting at is, why head to Windy Canyon NOW when he could have last week when he had what he needed? What was his reasoning for holing up longer than necessary?

Several possibilities:
1. He doesn't have what he needed. He's still trying to hire a divine caster. And he needs to either hire a fighter or free Thog.
2. Because he found out that the Order of the Stick was near, and had to try to take them down first.
3. Because the story requires that when the adventure turns into a race, both sides start off at the same time. "A villain is never late. Nor is he early He arrives precisely when the plot intends him to."
4. Qarr has been inventing reasons not to leave yet, because the IFCC doesn't want Nale to win, any more than they want Xykon to win.

We don't have enough information to decide that something is wrong.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-22, 11:58 AM
The Level Draining wand wouldnt have knocked either of those out of a fight after all.
Pile on enough negative levels, and it kills the subject. Even without that, it is a serious de-buff to interfere with their chance of fighting back. For instance, it denied Durkon the ability to cast holy word. The level draining might not be an instant-win tactic, but it works pretty well for early-round softening up.

And just remember, Nale loves to gloat. Instant-win tactics are not his style, because he canít gloat if he uses them.

zimmerwald1915
2011-11-22, 12:03 PM
Pile on enough negative levels, and it kills the subject. Even without that, it is a serious de-buff to interfere with their chance of fighting back. For instance, it denied Durkon the ability to cast holy word. The level draining might not be an instant-win tactic, but it works pretty well for early-round softening up.
The point is that level-draining doesn't work as well on martial melee characters like Roy and Belkar as it does on casters like Durkon in terms of lowering their combat ability, at least not without more than a few castings. Durkon losing his "Holy Word" is more debilitating to him than it would be for Roy or Belkar to take a penalty or four to their BAB, especially since neither Nale nor Sabine wears armor.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-22, 12:26 PM
The point is that level-draining doesn't work as well on martial melee characters like Roy and Belkar as it does on casters like Durkon in terms of lowering their combat ability, at least not without more than a few castings. Durkon losing his "Holy Word" is more debilitating to him than it would be for Roy or Belkar to take a penalty or four to their BAB, especially since neither Nale nor Sabine wears armor.
Excuse me. I misread your initial post. Didnít realize you were talking about using level draining on Roy an Belkar specifically.

dps
2011-11-22, 07:12 PM
i dont think that he hates the pantheon itself, but hates the fact that everyone(at least everyone that has shown any interest in them) has been paladins that would do anything for them. So its his dislike of paladins that in turn fuels his dislike for the gods.

just my thought on it at least.

I would assume that Draketooth was a follower of the gods of the west, not the gods of the south.

Math_Mage
2011-11-22, 08:57 PM
If Nale and Sabine knew where the Draketooth's are as this comic implies, why were they at the palace to begin with? Nale said he threw the ambush together at the last second, so the Linear Guild must have said some ulterior motive for being there in the first place. And it can't be because they thought Elan was exposing his brother's presence to their father, because that would contradict what Nale said previously. No, something fishy is afoot.

Maybe Haley is deducing wrong?

The Linear Guild, the IFCC, and the plot all demand conflict. There is no conflict if they head off before the OotS shows up.

Also, the window between when Penelope dies and when the OotS show up is only 4-5 days. Not inconceivable that they could have been held up by something--deciphering something Penelope said, searching for something she left out, getting Thog out of the arena (probably has more to do with making him want to leave than with actually escaping), etc.

Morgan Wick
2011-12-03, 12:30 AM
Nale may have known the Order was coming (remember Zzdtri's eye) and delayed their departure either to nip any threat in the bud or out of an irrational hatred of Elan.

Sethala
2011-12-03, 02:48 AM
Also, as Haley pointed out, Nale knew that Thog would be in the arena, that Elan would be watching the games (or at least close enough to know who the fighters were), and that if Elan saw Thog alive, he would figure out that the rest of the Linear Guild managed to survive as well. That doesn't completely explain why he was still in the city when Elan got there, but since Z saw them at the explosion, and Nale already said he thought they were searching for him, it would make a bit more sense for him to try and set an ambush.

As I type that, I realize he said he threw the ambush together at the last minute, so he probably didn't know Elan was coming for a while... but then again, this is Nale we're talking about. For him, planning for two days straight would probably count as throwing a plan together at the "last minute", with how complex his other schemes have been...

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-03, 09:02 AM
That doesn't completely explain why he was still in the city when Elan got there, but since Z saw them at the explosion, and Nale already said he thought they were searching for him, it would make a bit more sense for him to try and set an ambush.
The way Nale talked about Elanís activities, I got the impression that Nale initially believed Elan was wandering the desert looking for the gate. It wasnít until he found out Elan was in the Empire of Blood that he thought Elan was specifically trying to hunt him down.

veti
2011-12-05, 08:20 PM
I agree with the OP, there's something quite odd going on here.

So... someone presumed to be Sabine told Penelope that Windy Canyon was where to search for Orrin.
How would Sabine know that?
If Sabine did know that, why would she share the information with Penelope?
If it was Sabine that helped Penelope to "uncover" this information, then why are our heroes assuming it bears any relation to the truth? After all, if the aim was to get rid of Penelope, any remote location would do - there's no reason to believe Orrin has ever been near the place.
I'm sure there are perfectly good answers to these questions, some of which may be revealed at the right time. What bothers me is, why is nobody - not even Haley - asking them now?

Ron Miel
2011-12-05, 09:22 PM
So... someone presumed to be Sabine told Penelope that Windy Canyon was where to search for Orrin.
[LIST] How would Sabine know that?

No, I don't think so. The implication of panel 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html)is that Nale's spy, Zz'dtri, overheard Penelope talking about it, when they hadn't known before. Who the friend might be is still a mystery, but not Sabine.

Nevereatcars
2011-12-05, 10:04 PM
No, I don't think so. The implication of panel 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html)is that Nale's spy, Zz'dtri, overheard Penelope talking about it, when they hadn't known before. Who the friend might be is still a mystery, but not Sabine.

So.. the Linears killed Penelope and her friend? Or is there going to be another side in the fight for Girard's Gate? That would make:

OotS
Linear Guild
Draketooth Clan
Tarquin's Team
IFCC
Xykon?
Dragon Empress?
Penelope's Friend?

SPoD
2011-12-05, 10:29 PM
So... someone presumed to be Sabine told Penelope that Windy Canyon was where to search for Orrin.

No; someone, presumed to be Sabine, helped Penelope uncover the information herself. As in, neither the friend nor Penelope knew the answer beforehand, but they discovered it together by using the Linear Guild's resources to investigate Penelope's "lead" on Girard. Once they found it out together, the LG was going to go act on that information (probably without her). Unfortunately, she went and blabbed the secret location to everyone who would listen, including Tarquin.


What bothers me is, why is nobody - not even Haley - asking them now?

No one is asking those questions because they do not think that Sabine TOLD Penelope the information, they think that Sabine GUIDED Penelope to find the information herself somehow. How, exactly, has not yet been explained.


No, I don't think so. The implication of panel 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html)is that Nale's spy, Zz'dtri, overheard Penelope talking about it, when they hadn't known before. Who the friend might be is still a mystery, but not Sabine.

That is only one possible implication. An equally valid one is that Zz'dtri is overhearing Penelope spilling the secret to Tarquin that the Linear Guild had just worked so hard to uncover. Since Nale and the LG would not want Tarquin to learn about the Gates, they then have to kill Penelope to keep her from telling Tarquin who it was that has been helping her.

The_Weirdo
2011-12-05, 11:59 PM
That's interesting, I never thought that orange is red. Thank you!

As a Brazilian translator of English I should say your English is quite good, save for very tiny imperfections that don't matter at all. And I get to say that English is weird like that. But far be it from me to complain; it's what keeps me in business. ;)

Morgan Wick
2011-12-09, 02:05 AM
Anyone want to revise their thoughts after 819?