3.5 teleport/dimension door

[kayden87]

Can you teleport or dimension door into a bag of holding?

[Calanon]

Can you teleport or dimension door into a bag of holding?

No, but I can't see why you couldn't plane shift into a bag of holding :smalltongue:

[kayden87]

What plane is the bag of.holding contents in

[MesiDoomstalker]

What plane is the bag of.holding contents in

Its own plane. Each bag has its own demiplane. But its not really a plane at all but a null space, not a plane.

[Calanon]

Its own plane. Each bag has its own demiplane. But its not really a plane at all but a null space, not a plane.

Note to self: Make Demiplane of holding :smallwink:

[MesiDoomstalker]

Note to self: Make Demiplane of holding :smallwink:

Theres already a spell for that. For the life of me I can't remember what its called. Simulcarum?

[Big Fau]

No, but I can't see why you couldn't plane shift into a bag of holding :smalltongue:

Because you cannot Plane Shift into extradimensional spaces IIRC.

[kayden87]

Its an alternate space also. and you CAN planeshift into that

[MesiDoomstalker]

Its an alternate space also. and you CAN planeshift into that

Extradimensional/alternate space/etc. =/= Plane. Planes are clearly defined. There is even mini versions. Extradimensional spaces are explicitly not planes and no amount of cheese short of Homebrew will allow you to enter a Extradimensional space via magic excpet in the normal way. I.E. opening the dang bag! It would be better to just research a spell that opened up the bag and allowed you to jump in as a Full-Round action. That isn't abusable. Plane Shift+ is even more so than regular Plane Shift.

[Emperor Tippy]

Nah, Wish can put you into an extra-dimensional space by RAW.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Nah, Wish can put you into an extra-dimensional space by RAW.

Ok I've been proven wrong, but its a considerable cost just to get into a cramped, air-less bag.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ok I've been proven wrong, but its a considerable cost just to get into a cramped, air-less bag.

Not really, it's the only way (short of a few prestige classes) to break into a Magnificent Mansion. It's also a great way to make money, you find a high level adventurer and then Wish your way into his Bag of Holding before emptying it all into your BoH and then Wishing yourself back home.

How often do you run into adventurers paranoid enough to trap the inside of their extra-dimensional spaces?

And with your Solar Simulacrum it's not like the Wishes actually cost you anything.

[herrhauptmann]

Not really, it's the only way (short of a few prestige classes) to break into a Magnificent Mansion. It's also a great way to make money, you find a high level adventurer and then Wish your way into his Bag of Holding before emptying it all into your BoH and then Wishing yourself back home.

How often do you run into adventurers paranoid enough to trap the inside of their extra-dimensional spaces?

And with your Solar Simulacrum it's not like the Wishes actually cost you anything.

Depending on the adventurer, you could then get him out of your way afterwards by tossing a portable hole into his bag of holding (somehow, another wish?). Not many melee types can escape the astral plane on their own.
Granted, if you're using solar simulacrum, then you could just scry'n'die him for a lot less, but this is more fun.

Which PrC allows you to break into a MMM?

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Note to self: Make Demiplane of holding :smallwink:


Theres already a spell for that. For the life of me I can't remember what its called. Simulcarum?

In Ultimate Magic for Pathfinder, there's the create demiplane series of spells. Greater create demiplane at 9th level allows you to create a plane of up to ten 10-foot cubes per caster level, create a permanent gate between that plane and any other location of your choice, and then make the plane itself a dead magic zone.

The main issue is finding a way to make the Material Plane side of the gate portable. So far, my best solution has been the witch's hut hex with teleportation circle, but I'd really like to break it down to something man-portable. Would it be possible to put a gate on the inside of a portable hole?

[Psyren]

Ok I've been proven wrong, but its a considerable cost just to get into a cramped, air-less bag.

It's got 10 minutes of air actually.
(Just don't whip out your Portable Hole by accident.)

[olentu]

Depending on the adventurer, you could then get him out of your way afterwards by tossing a portable hole into his bag of holding (somehow, another wish?). Not many melee types can escape the astral plane on their own.
Granted, if you're using solar simulacrum, then you could just scry'n'die him for a lot less, but this is more fun.

Which PrC allows you to break into a MMM?

Silver key I think from dragonmarked.

[MesiDoomstalker]

It's got 10 minutes of air actually.
(Just don't whip out your Portable Hole by accident.)

Let me rephrase. A cramped, un-ventilated space, probably filled with decaying corpses to be reanimated later during down time.

[kayden87]

Aite, well if Wish can get you inside a bag.. Is there a way to Wish your self into anyone's bag, steal some items and wish your self out? Even though you do not know the location of "that" bag

[DarkestKnight]

(Just don't whip out your Portable Hole by accident.)
along these lines what happens if you are carrying bags of holding or portable hole? they trigger on just being inside...
the other thing, is aren't the dimensions of a bag rather cramped for a human? (after reading the srd the opening is two feet across, but larger on the inside so no getting out easily barring halflings) if the bag is nearing its limit when the human pops in it will rupture and the player will be lost to the world. sounds like an easy way out for a DM that will have none of your shenanigans.

[MesiDoomstalker]

along these lines what happens if you are carrying bags of holding or portable hole? they trigger on just being inside...
the other thing, is aren't the dimensions of a bag rather cramped for a human? (after reading the srd the opening is two feet across, but larger on the inside so no getting out easily barring halflings) if the bag is nearing its limit when the human pops in it will rupture and the player will be lost to the world. sounds like an easy way out for a DM that will have none of your shenanigans.

IIRC, its about 10 square feet. So a more spherical shaped version of Forcecage for reference. Or thats Portable Holes. I can never remember if they share the same spacial capabilities (minus the varying weight limitations of the bags) or if they are seperate. But 2 foot diameter circle is not hard to get out of for a medium or smaller creature. Even the beefest of humans barely reach 2 feet should to shoulder. If your a Half-Orc Wizard (HA! Half-Orc Wizard!), you may have issues. Really, Just take 10 or 20 on your Escape Artist roll. Buff with Cat's Grace if you wish.

[Psyren]

along these lines what happens if you are carrying bags of holding or portable hole? they trigger on just being inside...

If you're carrying bags of holding, nothing happens.
If you're carrying a portable hole, you open a gate to the Astral that pulls you through while destroying both items.


the other thing, is aren't the dimensions of a bag rather cramped for a human? (after reading the srd the opening is two feet across, but larger on the inside so no getting out easily barring halflings) if the bag is nearing its limit when the human pops in it will rupture and the player will be lost to the world. sounds like an easy way out for a DM that will have none of your shenanigans.

The smallest one is about the size of a fridge on the inside (30 cu. ft.). And even then, chances are that anyone you'd be willing to blow a Wish to rob is going to be substantially wealthy and have larger ones.

[ILM]

Theres already a spell for that. For the life of me I can't remember what its called. Simulcarum?
Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm).

#morecharacters

[Myth]

In regards to Silver Key and MMM breaking & entering, I had made a thread a while back (opened a can of Epic Worms) that discussed the topic of how to slay a Tier 1 caster without being one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168728) (which evolved into: "can anyone kill the Batman?". Turned out it was not so simple to "just kill the Batman").

The question still remains though. Can Wish get you inside a demiplane created via Genesis if the caster specifically says it's limited access (as in, no one is getting in when he's napping). The RAW text is:


The spellcaster creates a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane.

vs


Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions.

Obviously one has to work, they can't both be true (immovable object vs unstoppable force). Then again, this is WOTC. Though I might be missing something.

[Psyren]

Obviously one has to work, they can't both be true.

Sure they can. Limited access != No access.

Also, "regardless of local conditions" is a blank check to ignore all barriers anyway.

[kayden87]

So while you guys are in heated discussion there... Is anyone gong to answer my question?

[Urpriest]

It's been mentioned earlier in this thread that you can't teleport into an extradimensional space. Can someone point me to that rule? Extradimensional just means bigger on the inside, like a Tardis. It's still on the same plane fluffwise.

[Psyren]

It's been mentioned earlier in this thread that you can't teleport into an extradimensional space. Can someone point me to that rule? Extradimensional just means bigger on the inside, like a Tardis. It's still on the same plane fluffwise.

No, extradimensional spaces are considered demiplanes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#demiplanes) in D&D. Therefore, they are not on the same plane by definition.

The bag (i.e. the interface) is on the same plane, but not its contents.

And since the bag's contents are not on the same plane, teleportation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) does not work.

[nedz]

Not really, it's the only way (short of a few prestige classes) to break into a Magnificent Mansion. It's also a great way to make money, you find a high level adventurer and then Wish your way into his Bag of Holding before emptying it all into your BoH and then Wishing yourself back home.

How often do you run into adventurers paranoid enough to trap the inside of their extra-dimensional spaces?

And with your Solar Simulacrum it's not like the Wishes actually cost you anything.
This is why all real high level adventurers carry a Bag of Devouring as a decoy :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

This is why all real high level adventurers carry a Bag of Devouring as a decoy :smallbiggrin:

If you Wish to be transported into their BoH and all they have is a BoD, it's more likely that the Wish would simply fail.

(Unless you point at it and say "I wish I was inside that," which is a bit silly.)

[hangedman1984]

Aite, well if Wish can get you inside a bag.. Is there a way to Wish your self into anyone's bag, steal some items and wish your self out? Even though you do not know the location of "that" bag

Is it possible? Absolutely.
However just like any use of wish beyond the ones specifically listed under the spell description, it is open to "interpretation" by the universe (the DM).

[tyckspoon]

Is it possible? Absolutely.
However just like any use of wish beyond the ones specifically listed under the spell description, it is open to "interpretation" by the universe (the DM).

Transport (to anywhere regardless of local conditions) is one of the specific options. The only thing subject to "interpretation" there is if you screw up your statement and don't unambiguously declare where you want to be.

[Psyren]

Is it possible? Absolutely.
However just like any use of wish beyond the ones specifically listed under the spell description, it is open to "interpretation" by the universe (the DM).

Transportation is specifically listed:


Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

So the "DM-screw" clause doesn't apply, you can Wish yourself to be anywhere you want.

Ninja'ed, but I have a quote dammit!

[Urpriest]

No, extradimensional spaces are considered demiplanes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#demiplanes) in D&D. Therefore, they are not on the same plane by definition.

The bag (i.e. the interface) is on the same plane, but not its contents.

And since the bag's contents are not on the same plane, teleportation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) does not work.

All that that says is that extradimensional spaces that function like planes are demiplanes. Ones that don't function like planes presumably are not. How do you know the inside of a bag of holding functions like a plane? It doesn't seem to have planar traits, which seems the only viable definition.

[ericgrau]

So the "DM-screw" clause doesn't apply, you can Wish yourself to be anywhere you want.
Wish is no different than plane shift in that quotation. The question remains whether you can really can get into a bag via changing planes.

[Psyren]

How do you know the inside of a bag of holding functions like a plane?

"Functions like a plane" is a meaningless statement. Even the space between planes is itself a plane. Every separate reality with different rules is a "plane." It's like saying "all particles that function like matter."

Also, you can put things and creatures in it.
So how do you know it doesn't?


It doesn't seem to have planar traits, which seems the only viable definition.

Demiplanes do have planar traits. See MoP 153.
And the second half of the quote definitely fits with bags of holding:

"This catch-all category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access."

Limited access: check, the mouth of the bag.
Measurable size: check, see the BoH entry - both the inside and outside of the bag have measurements.


Wish is no different than plane shift in that quotation. The question remains whether you can really can get into a bag via changing planes.

It is actually - you explicitly cannot plane shift to demiplanes (MoP 154.) So you would need Wish or Gate.

And it's all moot anyway - even if the bag's contents are on the same plane as you, Wish can get you there.

[FearlessGnome]

Wish can even extract someone from a Dead Magic Zone (or teleport them into one). There doesn't seem to be anything about extra dimensional storage spaces in general that make them harder to break into than that.

[Myth]

What about a Demiplane that has a trait which blocks spells that are Universal? In other words, spells that don't have a spell don't work there. It can be done, it's right here:


Limited Magic

Planes with this trait permit only the use of spells and spell-like abilities that meet particular qualifications.

Magic can be limited to effects from certain schools or subschools, to effects with certain descriptors, or to effects of a certain level (or any combination of these qualities). Spells and spell-like abilities that don’t meet the qualifications simply don’t work.

Also, based on the wording, a Su ability would work in such conditions right? So a Dweomerkeepr can rock on any plane regardless of the Limited Magic trait.

[FearlessGnome]

Teleports without error regardless of local conditions.

If you want special protection from Wish, you are going to have to call in an epic effect.

[Myth]

OK. But this at least means if you go in you can't Wish yourself out, someone else has to bail you from such a Demiplane, correct?

[Psyren]

What about a Demiplane that has a trait which blocks spells that are Universal?

If you blocked Universal in your demiplane, it would be just like the plane being dead magic; i.e. Wish can drop folks in but you can't cast it again to get out. (The actual Wish to get in wouldn't be cast while on the plane, therefore the block would not apply as the caster isn't there yet.)

But yes, someone else could cast Wish from outside the plane to pull you back out.

[FearlessGnome]

Yes. Though a workaround would be to craft a contingent Wish to extract you after a certain amount of time or some such. It would be inconvenient, but could be done.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Contingencies reside in the subject's body, and so would be useless for teleporting out of a dead magic zone.

[FearlessGnome]

K. I wasn't aware, but that makes sense.

I Wish to be teleported to location X in six seconds. I Wish to be teleported from X back here in Y seconds.

"Remarkable. Turns out the whole plane really was full of antimagic and acid. Let's never go there again."

[Psyren]

I Wish to be teleported to location X in six seconds. I Wish to be teleported from X back here in Y seconds.


This could count as "effects greater than these" (nothing in Wish lets you set up a casting delay - you wish for what you want now and it happens immediately) therefore you could be subject to DM screw. I would personally allow it though, or certainly allow it with Miracle as a deity would be inclined to keep an eye on you.

[ericgrau]

It sounds like it might be within the power of 2 wishes though. Maybe. The timer thing adds a little bit but it's probably ok.



It is actually - you explicitly cannot plane shift to demiplanes (MoP 154.) So you would need Wish or Gate.

And it's all moot anyway - even if the bag's contents are on the same plane as you, Wish can get you there.
My meaning was that wish uses the same wording as plane shift. Actually plane shift has the explicit additional ability to shift to another dimension, whereas wish makes no such comment.

[Urpriest]

"Functions like a plane" is a meaningless statement. Even the space between planes is itself a plane. Every separate reality with different rules is a "plane." It's like saying "all particles that function like matter."

Also, you can put things and creatures in it.
So how do you know it doesn't?

I proposed a definition for "functions like a plane": has a list of planar traits in the proper format. If you ran into the phrase "functions like a creature", you'd assume it meant something like "has ability scores, including Wis and Cha". It's the same principle.


Demiplanes do have planar traits. See MoP 153.
And the second half of the quote definitely fits with bags of holding:

"This catch-all category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access."

Limited access: check, the mouth of the bag.
Measurable size: check, see the BoH entry - both the inside and outside of the bag have measurements.


Demiplanes indeed have planar traits. Bags of holding do not. Find me a statblock for the planar traits of an extradimensional space. The criteria for measurable size and limited access differentiate a demiplane from a plane, not a demiplane from a non-planar extradimensional space.