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Mystral
2011-11-22, 05:14 AM
Alright, I have to write this to get this off my head, so to speak. Anyone who has or had different experiences, I am very happy for you, but this is just something I encountered. I want to know if I am alone in this, or if this is a prelevalent problem, and maybe how to solve it.

For the last months, I have tried to join a pbp game in this forum. I am playing pbp since 2006, but mostly I have done so on a german board which is tailored to those games.

I have been largely unsuccessfull. Some of the games didn't pick me up, none of the ones that did got more then 5 pages of play before dying off. Most of the time, people just wandered off or the DM pledged sudden complications in his life. Even a game with 2 DMs suffered that fate. Why do all the people who want to DM have a major catastrophe happen in their life is a mistery to me. I tried to circumvent these problems by finding solo campaign, just me and a DM who was interested in my idea in character. Guess what, they vanished, too, without a warning, utterly expected.

Why is that so much of a problem for me? 3 Reasons:

First of all, I invest a lot of time in coming up with character concepts I'd like to play. I can't just churn out ideas and character builds.
Second, people are insanely dishonest on here. They cite personal problems as their reasons for quitting, vanish without a trace or stop do their best to lose the interest of their players to let their games die off. My guess is that they really want to start a game, but after the first rush runs of, they lose interest in the games they started because of the lack of instant gratification.
Third, and this is the big one: People on this board seem to be required to create A COMPLETED CHARACTER WITH BACKGROUND AND CRUNCH before they are even CONSIDERED to be taken as a player. This means that when 10 people apply for a game with a maximum of 5 players, 5 people waste between them more then a dozen hours of work for nothing at all. It would be far more reasonable to ask the applicants for a fast rundown of their character (one paragraph of fluff, crunch concept, maybe the classes and keystones of the build).

As it is now, though, the pbp-board is a sellers market. Even though half of the games stop before reaching 100 posts, players on this forum seem to be desperate to get on new games, so if you don't compete with a full concept, you don't even get a second look from the DM.

How I think it could get better:

DMs:
Don't require your players to throw together a whole character for your games. If you are really interested in pbp, you are not looking for someone able to create a character from scratch, you want someone who is invested in their character because those are the people who STAY in your game. If your player had to come up with 10 different characters for 3 different systems and 6 different game worlds, they don't care about any of them. Why should they? the game will die off anyway.
If you are not positive that you can spare the time to DM, DON'T! I will never understand why people feel the need to start a game 2 weeks before starting a new job, moving or the birth of their first child.
If the players are slacking of without reason and are not responding to your requests to play faster, don't stop posting yourself and let the game get dragged to a standstill, just get someone else.

I'm finished ranting. Sorry.

Eldan
2011-11-22, 05:38 AM
There are problems with that approach.

Mainly, there are thousands of people on this board. As a DM, I can't really tell which ones are reliable or not, if I haven't seen them in a game before. Now, I have run a lot games on here (or tried, at least, not very successfully, they always die), and I have a three page blacklist of people I won't accept again.

That, however, is the result of, well, three pages worth of frustration, and I still haven't got a successful game going.

In the absence of knowing who is reliable and who not, I turn to backstories. They tell me a few things: who has paid attention to what I actually want from characters (I've had players suggest Half-Celestial Favoured Souls in a low-magic world with no divine powers active), who has put in the effort of writing a full story, and who has a writing style I find, hmm, adequate (no offense, but some people on here can't seem to put two full sentences together, which is a problem in a text-based game).

What else am I supposed to do, when I get thirty applications, ninety percent of which are from people who don't actually seem to want a good game?

As for players dropping out:
I'm sick and tired of introducing a new character every second page. I can't get a story going when, after every scene, half the characters drop out. I introduce for heroes to the story, and before they all even spoke more than a sentence ingame, one of them suddenly dies and a new hero walks in? That's not how you get a story going.
So yeah. It ruins my motivation, honestly.

flumphy
2011-11-22, 05:56 AM
If you're spending 12 hours on a character, then I have to wonder what exactly you're spending those twelve hours on. I typically make a new character for each game I apply to, complete with sheet and several paragraphs of background, and I routinely knock all of that out in an hour or two. I also virtually always get accepted, so I feel justified in saying that my quality is up to snuff. Granted, I too typically play elsewhere, but from what I've observed those sites are more competitive, if anything.

Perhaps your problem is that you don't tailor your characters to the campaign? When someone has integrated details from the setting into their backstory, it demonstrates that they're into the premise of the campaign and that they're eager to get involved in the world. Applying with a character that has clearly been copied from elsewhere and tweaked, on the other hand, is a red flag. Not providing much detail at all? A huge red flag, because more often than not those players will be responding in the IC thread with one-sentence posts should they be accepted. Even in the rare cases where they do end up putting some effort in roleplaying, PbP is a written medium, and if you don't seem to take pleasure in the writing itself then that doesn't bode well for you sticking around for an entire adventure.

The unfortunate truth is that a full application is the only way to prove someone actually can roleplay coherently. Another unfortunate truth is that most PbP games will die, and this isn't always the fault of the GM. As Eldan points out, it doesn't really make sense for a narrative to continue if, for whatever reason, multiple players call it quits. If these things frustrate you that much, then maybe this medium just isn't for you. There are always RL or VOIP games. Personally, I just see these downsides as unfortunate but unavoidable drawbacks of the hobby, like bruises from playing paintball.

Eldan
2011-11-22, 05:58 AM
If Mystral's the person I think, you should see some of those characters. They have short novels as backgrounds, really.

Anyway, you could look into chat games. I've had a pretty successful Skype game for over a year and a half now, every week. There's two of the four beginning players left, but the cast has been the same for almost a year now.

The_Snark
2011-11-22, 06:00 AM
It's a persistent problem with PbP, yes (on this board and most others I've seen). People have an idea—a game, a character, what-have-you—and then find that their enthusiasm convinced them they had more time to devote to it than they really did, or that once the novelty has worn off it's just not that interesting.


DMs:
Don't require your players to throw together a whole character for your games. If you are really interested in pbp, you are not looking for someone able to create a character from scratch, you want someone who is invested in their character because those are the people who STAY in your game. If your player had to come up with 10 different characters for 3 different systems and 6 different game worlds, they don't care about any of them. Why should they? the game will die off anyway.

I agree with the point that you want someone who's invested in their character, but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion. "Willingness to stick with it" is a vital quality in a good player, but not necessarily the only quality that a GM is looking for. Some of them want to see good writing, or wit and humor, or... whatever. The point is, the more of that player you see, the better you can evaluate them.

More importantly, though, I fail to see how asking for a quick character blurb rather than a complete character will attract more reliable players. It makes the process easier on the applicants, but that's all it does. One could argue that this makes the problem worse: people who spend hours making a character are probably more invested in that character than people who spent 10 minutes throwing something together on a whim.

I don't have a solution for this; I think if someone did it would've been implemented already. It helps to get to know people; a small group of people who know one another (even if only through the Internet) is more likely to stick together than a bunch of strangers.

It also helps to cultivate a sanguine disposition: yes, a lot of games are short-lived, and that can be frustrating. But if I enjoyed building and writing my character, and had fun with the game while it lasted, then it was still a net gain. I would rather that the game last longer, of course. That would be more fun. But I don't see those hours spent as wasted.

You might not feel the same way; maybe the frustration outweighs the fun. In that case, PbP may not be for you. (At least, not on these forums; you say you've been playing for five years on another. Might I ask what they do differently?)

NichG
2011-11-22, 06:01 AM
I haven't really had experience on either end of PbP on the forums, but I have run games with people I know in real life online for sake of scheduling and availability. In general, people seem to be a lot less reliable online, even if they're pretty reliable IRL. Its easier to be distracted, people don't feel like being late is as bad since no one had to travel to get there, its even easier to multitask so those players that idly play games on their laptop during sessions will be alt-tabbing to other games during play and missing when you IM them 'hey, what do you do on your round?'. PbP seems like it should avoid a lot of those issues since there's not as much need for focused attention over a period of 6 hours, but I guess it doesn't escape it.

This post ended up very long so I'm spoilering sections of it.

Ideas on forum structure for PbP:


Honestly I think the forums would need to be structured pretty differently to really enable good PbP. Forum rules seem to officially prevent holding a poster's behavior in other threads against them, where for something like PbP especially if players are overabundant some sort of reputation system seems a natural thing (and with it there'd often be attendant abuses that would require moderators to watch over). Ideally this would be some combination of automated statistics and non-automated ratings given by other players and the DM weighted against the average rating given by the rater (to balance out for people who are abusing the system and giving everyone bad ratings).

Automated stats that'd be useful would be:

- Longest sustained participation in a campaign' computed automatically from posting history in campaign threads (longest interval of at least one post per two days, for instance).

- Average participation fraction (percentage of days over a campaign's entire timeline that the player posted since their first post in it)


That said, I think there are a few things one can do. Ideas for picking players:


Instead of asking people for a character build, I'd ask them for a few paragraphs describing the concept of what they'd like to play and what they'd like to accomplish as a player in the game. For one, if you accept them as a player it helps you structure the game to be more involving to them; two, it gives you writing ability, player style, and character concept all in one.

Knowing player style will help you avoid conflicts of style and does provide information on reliability (e.g. someone who just wants to playtest a new build is more likely to drop from an extended game if they find the build doesn't do what they want, or if they get what they want out of the game. However, they'd be good for oneshot sort of deals).

The other thing would be, assuming this is manageable, to check other PbP games in which they player has participated and see whether they dropped out or what.


Ideas for DM to maintain interest:


As far as DM tactics for maintaining game interest, one thing I've noticed reading various PbP threads is that they often decay into a hard-to-follow in-character conversation between a few of the players. Once you get buried in that its hard to navigate or figure out where the important posts are that are actually pushing things forward. A single thread per game is space-saving, but sub-boards would better organize game content (long conversations could be extracted from the main thread into a side post, with a single post containing a link left in the main thread). Since thats not really in GitP's model, what I'd instead do is have an 'archive' thread where that stuff is moved to on a weekly basis (every Sunday night, so the players know), keeping the play thread relatively clean. I'd also try to cut those meandering conversations to a limited time so play can progress, maybe having a specified daily cutoff for actions in a particular scene like they use in some of the simulation games/god games I've read on here. That way if a player is not participating they don't hold up other people's play.

Eldan
2011-11-22, 06:05 AM
You might not feel the same way; maybe the frustration outweighs the fun. In that case, PbP may not be for you. (At least, not on these forums; you say you've been playing for five years on another. Might I ask what they do differently?)

What I've seen on other boards that helped (also boards with year-long games):

-Limited mod power for GMs, and their own subforums. It makes gaming vastly easier.

-Smaller communities. This is a big one. GitP has thousands of people, and I know perhaps two dozen of these more than just by name. I've been on RP boards with between a dozen and a few hundred people. Dropping a game there with no explanation gets you ostracised socially forever, and you probably won't be getting another game.

flumphy
2011-11-22, 06:10 AM
Another tip that hasn't been mentioned: run "one-shots." Apply to one-shots. It's a lot easier for people to commit six months of their life than two or more years. And if a DM seriously thinks a game is going to make it from 1-20, run. They have no idea what they're doing.

Eldan
2011-11-22, 06:10 AM
Another tip that hasn't been mention: run "one-shots." Apply to one-shots. It's a lot easier for people to commit six months of their life than two or more years. And if a DM seriously thinks a game is going to make it from 1-20, run. They have no idea what they're doing.

Not on these boards, maybe. I've seen it work on smaller boards. Longest lasting game I've seen was for about... six years, I think? Well into the epics.

flumphy
2011-11-22, 06:18 AM
Not on these boards, maybe. I've seen it work on smaller boards. Longest lasting game I've seen was for about... six years, I think? Well into the epics.

Oh, it happens. I too have seen a couple examples. But that's the thing. In my ten years of roleplaying online, I've seen maybe two examples. It's such an anomaly that I don't think any DM capable of such a feat would be naive enough to advertise to a bunch of strangers for a campaign he's confident will last years.

Totally Guy
2011-11-22, 06:42 AM
I've tried running lighter games here and I've not really had much good happen.

Inspectres worked well for the first mission.

Lacuna I couldn't get players for...

It annoys me that my threads so get very little attention because I don't want to do D&D.

Eldan
2011-11-22, 06:54 AM
Yeah...
I'm making an effort to learn new systems, but I still have work to do, and there's only so many. I mean, I recently learned Cyberpunk 2020, Shadowrun and Dark Heresy for more-or-less-panned RL games, so I can't really learn another half-dozen systems for online games I'm not sure will work out. D&D is the lowest common denominator on these boards, so it's what I recruit for. (It's also the system I like most).

At this point, I pretty much have my own private sub-playground of people I play with. Mostly those I know on Skype.

Starsign
2011-11-22, 07:14 AM
Unfortunately yeah, I've also been the victim of getting abandoned in games a lot here; most games I have been in tend to end a few pages in (haven't really been signing up for a lot of games as of late because of this). Since I'm really attached to some of my characters, this makes the game ending a lot more painful for me. Like Eldan though, I have a number of people on Skype that have been greatly reliable. I have been rather lucky though as I'm in a game with two of them that has gone on well almost a year now :smallbiggrin:

...And I will be DM'ing for them soon :smalleek: Well I've always been a reliable person so I'll hope it'll work out.


It annoys me that my threads so get very little attention because I don't want to do D&D.
Yeah I know the feeling :smallfrown: I've been wanting to do other games aside from D&D as well (though atm college makes learning new systems a bit challenging so I tend to stick to the ones I know :smallredface:)

shadow_archmagi
2011-11-22, 07:15 AM
OP, you sound a little hurt and betrayed. Is it really so surprising that-

Hang on, I swear I've seen this thread and read this post before. Is anyone else getting Deja Vu? Oh well.

Anyway, I don't think it's too surprising that an internet-based game would have difficulty maintaining stability. The internet is a very tenuous connection at best, and it's a much lower psychological priority than real things.

I'm not saying that the difficulty of finding a PbP game is something you shouldn't be frustrated about, only that you shouldn't be surprised if a lot of people take an interest, post once or twice, and then realize it isn't for them, or that they're less interested than they thought, and just forget about it. The internet isn't a ballroom and making an excuse to leave is already an unnecessary courtesy.

Mono Vertigo
2011-11-22, 07:18 AM
I have experience as a player in PbP games on other forums. I have observed the following:
- when players (not the characters, the players) are rewarded in some way, they tend to invest more effort in staying. I know RP should be its own reward, being a game and all, but the fact is humans still enjoy being given something in exchange for any kind of "work". It may be as small as a sketch of their character, or in-game rewards such as extra XP or objects.
- start/join a game that can easily accept alternates. Sandboxes work well for this, or games with high mortality rates, or time skips, or any plot justification. Be prepared to see characters disappear; in the best case, you'll be happily surprised players stick for longer than expected.
- just plain remember that PbP can't be as fast as tabletop gaming unless everyone is in the same timezone, and that people will likely grow bored because of the slowness. That part can't really be helped.
- as a GM, don't be afraid to briefly control PCs if their players vanish, in order for everything to go as smoothly as possible.
-as a player, be considerate of everyone else. The GM spent time making/organizing the campaign, and the other players could very well spend their time somewhere else for more immediate fun, so if you are bored, make a little effort and stay a bit longer. Ask for a little more action, if necessary. If nothing changes and you're still bored, then try and plan a smooth exit, or let the GM take control of your character. If you need a hiatus for whatever reason but are still interested, just say so.

Oh, and I second everyone who says that you're probably doing it wrong if you spend more than one, maybe two, hours making a developed character. And if you can't afford to "waste" one hour of your life making a single character you could re-use later if it's not accepted... then you may have more pressing issues than roleplay.

Mystral
2011-11-22, 07:30 AM
I spend about 3-4 hours on mid level characters. Less for low level, of course, with those, I'm done in 1-2 hours, too. I wrote that 5 players that don't get accepted spend 12 hours between them.

And yeah, some of my characters have/had short novels as a background.

What my site does differently:

Smaller community
A sub forum for each game (I know that isn't really feasible here)
Smaller Groups (Seldom more then 4 players, so you don't have to wait for someone)
More OOC Communication which helps in forming friendship (or what passes for it on the internet) and by this obligation to the game.

And, most importantly, in many games, one is required to show a "portfolio" of their games. Which means they have to provide a link or three to a game they already played. Not everyone asks for that, and if you are nice enough, you might get a slot without it, but it is still helpfull for the DM. It makes it way easier to check:

a) If you like that players playstile
b) If that player posts reliably and more then 1 or 2 sentences
c) If that player is able to behave socially OOC

DMs usually don't post a portfolio, but it is a small community, so you can easily check their games out, too, and see if their playstile suits you and if they are able to keep up for a while.

The longest running game followed a 3.5 adventure path from level 1-20.

By the way, there was a quite similiar thread on here a few months ago. Couldn't find it with the search function, though, probably decayed.

PersonMan
2011-11-22, 10:13 AM
stuff about making characters before being picked, etc.

I've actually considered this one myself. I've chosen that, the next time I DM a game, I'll make mechanical characters optional before the start(that is, I'll give a few days for people to make backstories, etc. and take character-critical requests, but the rest would be done after player-picking).

As for the rapid dying off of games, it sort of seems to be a luck thing. I've been in/am in several games, and quite a few have died, but I'm in a few that are good. If I, say, had only joined 3 the three games that last(ed) a long time, then I'd have a completely different view of things than if I joined 3 that died quickly(one was level 27 gestalt, meaning that I spent easily 10x the time making the character than I did playing him).

GungHo
2011-11-22, 11:31 AM
If you're spending 12 hours on a character, then I have to wonder what exactly you're spending those twelve hours on.
This part I'd have to agree with... I wouldn't even spend that kind of time on a character that I was going to play at the table. I'm not lazy, it just doesn't take that long to generate up a character and a character concept. If you're spending that kind of time, it would lead me to think that you're doing a lot of recycles, either because you didn't get it right from the outset or because you're analyzing the system too much.


The unfortunate truth is that a full application is the only way to prove someone actually can roleplay coherently.
I don't necessarily agree with this one. I'd have to know what a "full application" means to you. If it means a full character, that's fine. If it means 10~20 pages of backstory... I disagree there. Being able to write in long form doesn't mean you can actually improv. Hell, I'd count it as much against you as I would for you. A well-summarized, one-pager with easy hooks is really all I'd need or really want. If you spent 1 hour actually rolling up a guy and then spend 11 hours telling me how cool he is, you have problems getting to the point.

Mystral
2011-11-22, 12:34 PM
This part I'd have to agree with... I wouldn't even spend that kind of time on a character that I was going to play at the table. I'm not lazy, it just doesn't take that long to generate up a character and a character concept. If you're spending that kind of time, it would lead me to think that you're doing a lot of recycles, either because you didn't get it right from the outset or because you're analyzing the system too much.

I repeat again:


I spend about 3-4 hours on mid level characters. Less for low level, of course, with those, I'm done in 1-2 hours, too. I wrote that 5 players that don't get accepted spend 12 hours between them.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-22, 12:43 PM
First of all, I invest a lot of time in coming up with character concepts I'd like to play. I can't just churn out ideas and character builds.

Re-use them until you get to actually play them, IMO. Often I make a char, a game falls through, but I still have interest in playing him. So, I hang on to the sheet.


Second, people are insanely dishonest on here. They cite personal problems as their reasons for quitting, vanish without a trace or stop do their best to lose the interest of their players to let their games die off. My guess is that they really want to start a game, but after the first rush runs of, they lose interest in the games they started because of the lack of instant gratification.

I wouldn't call that insanely dishonest. I've most certainly had personal reasons crop up that result in delays or needing to not DM. Just had to post today that a pbp I took over DMing, someone else is gonna have to take over. Getting consistently too busy, holidays are coming, it ain't gonna get better. It's unfortunate, but such is the way of things. My life is frankly a bit insane at times, and I often have no idea what exactly I'll be doing in three months.

Things happen, and often they aren't entirely forseeable beforehand, or people are overly optimistic about how much investment is required.

Note that people CAN take over for the DM if interest remains high.


Third, and this is the big one: People on this board seem to be required to create A COMPLETED CHARACTER WITH BACKGROUND AND CRUNCH before they are even CONSIDERED to be taken as a player. This means that when 10 people apply for a game with a maximum of 5 players, 5 people waste between them more then a dozen hours of work for nothing at all. It would be far more reasonable to ask the applicants for a fast rundown of their character (one paragraph of fluff, crunch concept, maybe the classes and keystones of the build).

It happens. If not accepted, ask them to send you a message if openings appear. People drop sometimes.

Save the char for the next attempt, and keep trying. Or DM a game yourself. Or offer to assistant DM. Believe me, they help a ton!

Consider learning to make chars quicker. I can crank them out on very short order now.

Avoid ridiculous concepts. Yes, I too love making a level 5 hexigestault build, but the odds that this game gets anywhere is minimal. And the build will likely take forever.

I'll admit I screen for writing ability above all else. If you can't or won't use basic spelling and grammar, I don't bother to seriously consider you, given that it's a text based medium.

The huge problem is really the time thing. Progress is often slow. A single scene takes weeks, often. Sometimes more. So, it's much, much easier to entirely forget about posting, or procrastinate it, or realize that someone else is doing that, and end up waiting for them. It's really a challenging medium to DM on. Kudos to those who pull it off, but they seem to be a minority.

Another notable problem is that sometimes it takes a LOT of poking back through the thread to find out what a specific player is referring to. Players usually know their char pretty well. A DM is unlikely to remember the gritty details about that thing a coupla months back. This is kind of a time sink for me.

In the end, though, there's a certain element of risk. I've had a lot of games die in a heartbeat, and others go for at least a fair while. I've not had any make it into the years length yet, but here's hoping!

If all else fails, try joining in Aldhaven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205374). The wait list is fairly lengthy, but updates have been fairly snappy, and it's a good idea all round.

Maxios
2011-11-22, 12:50 PM
Second, people are insanely dishonest on here. They cite personal problems as their reasons for quitting, vanish without a trace or stop do their best to lose the interest of their players to let their games die off. My guess is that they really want to start a game, but after the first rush runs of, they lose interest in the games they started because of the lack of instant gratification.

People sometimes have a thing called personally lives. If a guy's mother dies, I'm sure he's going to be focused on that then a PbP game.
On another forum I used to go on, I had to drop out of a game because we moved out of our old house, and had to spend the summer at my grandmother/uncle/aunt/cousin's house. I could only post at certain times, and just a few posts at that, so I quit the game to avoid bogging everybody down.
Of course, I did start posting on these forums again because of it.

Sgt. Cookie
2011-11-22, 01:01 PM
Personally, I think that the issue is people waiting for others to post and then when they don't post for days, then others will lose interest. A good way to stop this would be to PM players/GM and let them know that they need to do something.

I agree that a full sheet is a little unneeded. All you need, realistically, is:
1: Character concept in a sentence or two.

2: A two paragraphs of back story.

3: Class, alignment, age, things like that.

You could put all of that in a single post. No sheet needed.

GungHo
2011-11-22, 05:27 PM
I repeat again:

I wasn't actually talking to you.

The_Snark
2011-11-22, 08:45 PM
Smaller community
A sub forum for each game (I know that isn't really feasible here)
Smaller Groups (Seldom more then 4 players, so you don't have to wait for someone)
More OOC Communication which helps in forming friendship (or what passes for it on the internet) and by this obligation to the game.

I can see how a small community could help, but... I've been part of several small RP boards (10-30 people) that lost momentum and died. I've no idea what the success rate for boards like that is, but I suspect it's like PbP games written large; some of them stick around and work really well for the people involved, but some of them don't.

Subforums for each game is something I like just for convenience's sake, but I don't know how much of an effect it has on game survival.

Smaller groups... hmm. On the one hand, I can see your point about more people bogging things down (alternatively, if you don't wait, then the slower players get left behind). On the other hand, it makes it easier for a game to survive losing a few players. On the other other hand, dealing with that many players is harder on the GM, making it more likely that they'll lose enthusiasm. Nonetheless, some of the most successful games I've been in have involved 8+ players... though admittedly, none of them followed the traditional D&D model of a single party of characters. Trying to stuff 8+ characters in a single scene does not work so well.

I think your most important point is the last one; getting to know the people you're playing with, and piecing together a list of people you like, helps a lot.


And, most importantly, in many games, one is required to show a "portfolio" of their games. Which means they have to provide a link or three to a game they already played. Not everyone asks for that, and if you are nice enough, you might get a slot without it, but it is still helpfull for the DM. It makes it way easier to check:

a) If you like that players playstyle
b) If that player posts reliably and more then 1 or 2 sentences
c) If that player is able to behave socially OOC

DMs usually don't post a portfolio, but it is a small community, so you can easily check their games out, too, and see if their playstile suits you and if they are able to keep up for a while.

That's not a bad idea. I already have a habit of checking out a prospective DM's history when deciding whether or not to apply, and if I were to try and GM a game I suspect I'd look up potential players to see what their writing looks like in play. (As other people have pointed out, being able to write a good backstory does not necessarily mean someone is an entertaining player.)

ken-do-nim
2011-11-22, 08:52 PM
I've been running a 1E pbp over on Dragonsfoot for 4 years. I've thought about starting one here off and on, but besides the fact that I don't want a 2nd game to impact my "primary", here are the issues:

1. PBP games deserve their own forum. You can't properly run a game in one thread.
2. I don't trust anyone who creates an "application" to play in a game. I've been in other pbp games, and every time the guy who spends the most time on his character up front never actually posts in the game beyond the first page.
3. 3.5 really demands a battlemap when in combat, and nothing slows me down more than making maps. 3.5 also slows me down because I like a combat system where everyone declares their actions up front, then I resolve the round. TSR systems are ideal for pbp for this reason.

On the other hand, it's a pretty good community here and the website is pretty fast. So ... I dunno. Maybe someday.

Savannah
2011-11-22, 10:22 PM
Play by post on here is great, if you're willing to stick it out. I have several games that have been going for over a year with awesome people. I've had a lot more games die within a week. If that's not a success ratio you're comfortable with, you're going to have problems -- but I've seen real-life games fold that fast, so I just figure it takes a perfect combination of players, DM, story, and real-life not interfering regardless of medium.

Eldan
2011-11-23, 03:46 AM
People sometimes have a thing called personally lives. If a guy's mother dies, I'm sure he's going to be focused on that then a PbP game.


Oh, sure, and I understand that. But, like Mystral, I've seen some excuses that were, frankly, ridiculous. If your semester starts two days after game start and you don't have time anymore, perhaps you shouldn't have applied.

Tengu_temp
2011-11-23, 05:56 AM
I don't have the time to elaborate right now, but I will say this - yes, this forum is worse for PbP games than sites dedicated to them, and the community's approach is the problem... But it has nothing to do with the OP's biggest reason. Requiring the players to submit a complete character sheet is an entirely normal thing and I do it all the time, and I tend to DM games where character creation is much more complex than in DND.

Mystral
2011-11-23, 06:29 AM
Could someone who has played on different, better boards for pvp, please give me a link? I'd try google, but I am looking for smaller communities, and google is likely to only show the bigger ones.

PM or response in this thread is both appreciated.

Volthawk
2011-11-23, 06:57 AM
One thing I've noticed is the system of the game seems to matter on this forum. I mean, take Exalted. Whenever games come up, there's usually a solid group of people here that are interested in it, as well as the trickle of new people. Now, that group that plays Exalted are all pretty solid players that keep around, barring stuff going wrong IRL. Out of all the games I've played, the longest-lasting ones have pretty much all been Exalted. Now D&D has many, many players here, so for any one game, they'll probably be a different set of people applying. That huge player-base varies in quality and dedication, so naturally there will be a lot of variation in duration and quality of game.

ken-do-nim
2011-11-23, 07:08 AM
Could someone who has played on different, better boards for pvp, please give me a link? I'd try google, but I am looking for smaller communities, and google is likely to only show the bigger ones.

PM or response in this thread is both appreciated.

Can't go wrong with rpol.net for any pbp rpg. www.dndonlinegames.com specializes in D&D which is nice, but has a similar game death ratio as here.

Tengu_temp
2011-11-23, 07:19 AM
Okay, I am back and can elaborate now:
The biggest problem with GitP's PbP community is that they are notoriously unreliable, even by PbP standards. A lot of people have Game ADD, as I like to call it, and drop out of their current game the moment a new shinier one appears, often not even bothering to let the people in the old game know. This includes a significant chunk of the "solid" Exalted players. The only good way to deal with those people is to identify them and avoid playing with them.

Cespenar
2011-11-23, 07:26 AM
Okay, I am back and can elaborate now:
The biggest problem with GitP's PbP community is that they are notoriously unreliable, even by PbP standards. A lot of people have Game ADD, as I like to call it, and drop out of their current game the moment a new shinier one appears, often not even bothering to let the people in the old game know. This includes a significant chunk of the "solid" Exalted players. The only good way to deal with those people is to identify them and avoid playing with them.

I'd agree with this, more or less.

Also, I keep PbP statistics in my signature as a passive-aggressive rant. Might be relevant.

Eldan
2011-11-23, 07:55 AM
One thing I've noticed is the system of the game seems to matter on this forum. I mean, take Exalted. Whenever games come up, there's usually a solid group of people here that are interested in it, as well as the trickle of new people. Now, that group that plays Exalted are all pretty solid players that keep around, barring stuff going wrong IRL. Out of all the games I've played, the longest-lasting ones have pretty much all been Exalted. Now D&D has many, many players here, so for any one game, they'll probably be a different set of people applying. That huge player-base varies in quality and dedication, so naturally there will be a lot of variation in duration and quality of game.

This plays into my notions of sub-playground and small community again.
I don't know about Exalted gamers, but I know a core of perhaps a dozen people who are in almost every nation game run on these boards. These days, that's Total War (I don't like the system much, personally, but it's what everyone plays), but it used to be Manifest Destiny, Nation-FATE and a dozen other, mostly self-made systems. Whenever a nation game goes up, I know that I will already know the names of half the people applying, and I think they know me as well. I have even come to associate playstyles and preferred underhanded subterfuge tactics with certain people.

This helps. D&D, is, perhaps, not the best system on these boards, because so many people play it. You don't get to know them. But trying a small system has the problem that you have to establish it first, even with a small group. If no one joins you, you are alone in your group.

Starsign
2011-11-23, 08:13 AM
Okay, I am back and can elaborate now:
The biggest problem with GitP's PbP community is that they are notoriously unreliable, even by PbP standards. A lot of people have Game ADD, as I like to call it, and drop out of their current game the moment a new shinier one appears, often not even bothering to let the people in the old game know. This includes a significant chunk of the "solid" Exalted players. The only good way to deal with those people is to identify them and avoid playing with them.
In my experience, Game ADD is also evident in a number of M&M players I've played with on GitP, this might be in part because a majority of them are also D&D players. And considering the few M&M games on here, (like, two games on this site that are currently ongoing) that is really unfortunate. :smallfrown: I wouldn't know about Exalted or any other systems though.


This helps. D&D, is, perhaps, not the best system on these boards, because so many people play it. You don't get to know them. But trying a small system has the problem that you have to establish it first, even with a small group. If no one joins you, you are alone in your group.
I agree. I recognize about half of the M&M players on this site when I see them apply for another game I'm in. It often helps to invite players you know in recruitment stages to help with the familiarity of the game. (which can play a key role in keeping things alive IMO) Though this doesn't always save the problem of when the DM/GM loses interest or has RL issues like a fried computer :smalleek:

shawnhcorey
2011-11-23, 09:05 AM
Could someone who has played on different, better boards for pvp, please give me a link? I'd try google, but I am looking for smaller communities, and google is likely to only show the bigger ones.

PM or response in this thread is both appreciated.

I like Myth Weavers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/forumhome.php) for PbP.

It seems that your complaint is common. If you found a board where there's a low number of abandoned games, consider yourself lucky. It is not the norm.

kamikasei
2011-11-23, 09:41 AM
A lot of people have Game ADD, as I like to call it, and drop out of their current game the moment a new shinier one appears, often not even bothering to let the people in the old game know.
I suspect the OP is also partly correct about applications for this reason. Being able to quickly produce a good-looking character sheet does not promise you'll stick around to play in the game, and indeed if you're fonder of character creation than character play such a filter will select for you when it's not ideal. It also means that games start with the people who most quickly got their characters most complete, which means in all probability they have little synergy or reason to stick together. Focusing on getting a working group assembled rather than taking complete individual applications can offset this, I think, or hope. You can see whose ideas work best together and people can adapt their concepts to the group as it takes shape, so that when the game starts everyone has stuck around for a few rounds of back-and-forth during chargen (rather than posting once with a nice application and then not replying when told they've been accepted...) and everyone has established connections to one another and ideas about how they want the game to evolve, increasing their stake in its survival.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-23, 10:04 AM
I would punch a baby in order to get a long running open game of 7th Sea. Possibly multiple babies. I'd make one myself, but I know I don't have the time to run it properly.

It'd also be a shizzton easier to run on pbp than D&D is. AoOs and things mostly don't exist, and the init system is very flexible.

I have actually played two pbp chars until they died, though. I've also leveled up a few times with pbp chars. I consider that exceptionally good, really.

Cespenar
2011-11-23, 10:19 AM
I have actually played two pbp chars until they died, though. I've also leveled up a few times with pbp chars. I consider that exceptionally good, really.

I once leveled up a pbp character from 1 to 7, if you can believe it.

Savannah
2011-11-23, 11:49 AM
This helps. D&D, is, perhaps, not the best system on these boards, because so many people play it. You don't get to know them.

Or you play a bunch of games, remember who you like and who sticks with it, and then run an invite game when you've got something you really want to see to the end. I know enough really good players that I'm going to have a hard time picking when I decide to run an invite game...

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-11-23, 12:53 PM
I have been largely unsuccessfull. Some of the games didn't pick me up, none of the ones that did got more then 5 pages of play before dying off. Most of the time, people just wandered off or the DM pledged sudden complications in his life. Even a game with 2 DMs suffered that fate. Why do all the people who want to DM have a major catastrophe happen in their life is a mistery to me. I tried to circumvent these problems by finding solo campaign, just me and a DM who was interested in my idea in character. Guess what, they vanished, too, without a warning, utterly expected.

This happens to both players and DMs for a number of reasons. The primary one, in my experience, is player/DM expectations.

When I run a game for my RL friends, it's hard to say "Look, guys, but this game just isn't what I had imagined, and you guys aren't the sort of players I want to run this idea with." It's easier to do online, and so players and DMs are more demanding when it comes to their personal interest and/or enjoyment. That's not something you'll be able to escape.

Also, it's not always a major catastrophe. Even something as minor as a greater workload for school/work decreases the amount of time I have to devote energy to designing a gameworld and/or writing meaningful posts, and thus makes me more inclined to put off games that I'm not entirely devoted to. I can't imagine that anyone is innocent of this: real life comes before PbP games (or real life games, if it comes to that), and I wouldn't ask anyone to put the game first.


First of all, I invest a lot of time in coming up with character concepts I'd like to play. I can't just churn out ideas and character builds.

Practice, then. I used to have this problem, but I set out to do character generation practice, and now I can whip off a fully realized character (no stats, but I don't usually write up stats until a GM has shown interest in the concept) in under twenty minutes, and usually under an hour including a complete backstory (unless it's one of my 16-page backstory scenes that I do occasionally...). It really helps, and it's a fun exercise to boot.


Second, people are insanely dishonest on here. They cite personal problems as their reasons for quitting, vanish without a trace or stop do their best to lose the interest of their players to let their games die off. My guess is that they really want to start a game, but after the first rush runs of, they lose interest in the games they started because of the lack of instant gratification.

Yep. This is what happens. I won't attribute it to dishonesty though, but rather to what I mentioned above: any minor personal problem, including lack of interest, makes me disinclined to devote energy to a game I'm not actually having that much fun in.


Third, and this is the big one: People on this board seem to be required to create A COMPLETED CHARACTER WITH BACKGROUND AND CRUNCH before they are even CONSIDERED to be taken as a player.

Of course. Any truly good DM (in my view) will require knowledge of what characters he'll be playing with, and how good the player is at crafting that character as an individual. I personally tend to avoid requiring crunch, but, even if I do a first round of concept selection, I'm not picking a final group composition based on a sentence or two of description. I want good players, good writers, and good characters, and I'm not sure I can get that until I can see the result.

The ones that aren't accepted? Those count as character design practice, and I find that rewarding enough. Hell, I've made characters for games I don't even want to play in simply because I found a concept interesting enough that I wanted to explore the given campaign concept by creating a character to fit it.


Don't require your players to throw together a whole character for your games. If you are really interested in pbp, you are not looking for someone able to create a character from scratch, you want someone who is invested in their character because those are the people who STAY in your game.

If your player had to come up with 10 different characters for 3 different systems and 6 different game worlds, they don't care about any of them. Why should they? the game will die off anyway.

Untrue. I want someone who can come up with 10 different characters for 3 different systems and 6 different game world and be invested in *all* of those characters. Those people exist, and I can tell by seeing their characters and their devotion to getting into my game (by creating such living, breathing, 3-dimensional characters for their applications). In my experience, such people are more likely to stick around than those who submit a concept that's a sentence or three in length.


If you are not positive that you can spare the time to DM, DON'T! I will never understand why people feel the need to start a game 2 weeks before starting a new job, moving or the birth of their first child.

This is the first point I'll entirely agree with.

Cespenar
2011-11-23, 01:40 PM
Yep. This is what happens. I won't attribute it to dishonesty though, but rather to what I mentioned above: any minor personal problem, including lack of interest, makes me disinclined to devote energy to a game I'm not actually having that much fun in.

This sums the general problem pretty well, I think.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-11-23, 03:05 PM
This sums the general problem pretty well, I think.

:smallbiggrin:

A few more thoughts...


So here’s my thoughts on PbP Role-Playing itself (tangentially related to this issue). After ten+ years of PbP in various forms and systems, I’ve found that the most reliable, skilled PbPers are, primarily, free-form RPers. I think this is because free-form RP has no rules basis, so people who just want to play a game don’t bother to join. As such, you get people incredibly devoted to characters and story (as opposed to rules systems), and these people are, typically, more skilled at crafting interesting scenarios and character interaction, which increases the “fun” factor of a game, and thus increases player retention. The other advantage is that it's not turn-based (at least to as great an extent) as a table-top game, so it removes the "waiting on so-and-so," or at least minimizes the effect.

This is a bit of a generalization. A number of free-form RPers are pretty abysmal at it, and a number of non-free-form RPers can craft beautiful characters and worlds. That being said, those who can’t do free-form (most good storytellers are also good free-form RPers, in my experience) aren’t the best players to consider for PbP games, since the ability to work outside of a rules system is necessary for a non-tabletop game to work effectively. Writing, characterization, and character interaction are more important in an environment that isn’t a bunch of friends sitting around a table. When you don’t have the intimate level of Out-of-Character interaction, In-Character interaction becomes much more important. Thus, we have a player emphasis on the ability to portray a character rather than the ability to just have fun at a game-table, and an emphasis on the DM to be able to create a compelling environment, convincing and realistic NPCs, and on the DM’s ability to play fast and loose with the rules to encourage player creativity and give players the chance to partly define the game world with more complex posts (fragments of story with descriptive passages rather than a brief action description or two). This leads to more fun for everything, as players have some element of control over their actions (as opposed to just dice…failing at everything with your friends around is fine, but over the internet can be just irritating), and the communal story improves in overall quality. Telling a story with people is more fun and more engaging than playing a game without much motivation, so the ability to craft a story becomes one of the most important factors.

Of course, this is somewhat subjective. Even the best PbP players won’t have fun in a game where the other player’s expectations are different, so the most important aspect of PbP RPGs is to make sure the players all have similar expectations. If you (a theoretical you here…this isn’t addressed to anyone in particular) don’t want to write up an entire character backstory for your submission but the game requires it and other players are doing it, that may not be the game for you: you may not have fun, or your lack of commitment to your character may mean that the other players have less fun. Likewise I, with my fondness for free-form, character-driven games, don’t apply to games promising to be a by-the-rules dungeon crawl, but rather to games that expect and even demand a certain level of story-telling capability (and could sometimes care less about rules and/or system mastery).

So, for gaming success and to increase a game’s life span, I think the following is true: Similar Expectations of Game Direction > Story-telling / Character-portraying Skill > Flexibility > System Knowledge

SamBurke
2011-11-23, 03:16 PM
For me, it's not that I think they're dishonest; I've had IRL problems before, and they kept me from playing for a week or so several times. However, I always warn my team, usually with my Sig, when I'm sick/out of internet/on vacation/etc. If I need to, I post in the OOC that they players "can" (Read: SHOULD) take their turns, or I'll PM if I need to.

What annoys me most is when the DM disappears in a game, without leaving a trace or telling us why he's stopped. Once, I even had one who actively continued on the forum, but never updated. He had NO excuses.

I'll second Mystral's askance for a solid PbP forum.

Starsign
2011-11-23, 03:22 PM
What annoys me most is when the DM disappears in a game, without leaving a trace or telling us why he's stopped. Once, I even had one who actively continued on the forum, but never updated. He had NO excuses.

Unfortunately I have to agree. I know a few number of games I've been in that have been in that spontaneously died because the GM went AWOL without warning of any kind and are gone for continual months before reappearing, usually without an excuse. :smallsigh:

UserClone
2011-11-23, 07:44 PM
I've tried running lighter games here and I've not really had much good happen.

Inspectres worked well for the first mission.

Lacuna I couldn't get players for...

It annoys me that my threads so get very little attention because I don't want to do D&D.

Dude, you need to PM me next time you start a game of either of those.


Could someone who has played on different, better boards for pvp, please give me a link? I'd try google, but I am looking for smaller communities, and google is likely to only show the bigger ones.

PM or response in this thread is both appreciated.

Snail's Pace (http://snailspace.forgreatjustice.net) is cool for, well, games that aren't D&D (or super-mainstream). It's mostly for those sort of "Indie" games like Lady Blackbird, Apocalypse World, the above-mentioned Lacuna and Inspectres, and games along that vein.


I would punch a baby in order to get a long running open game of 7th Sea. Possibly multiple babies. I'd make one myself, but I know I don't have the time...
Dude, making a baby yourself just to have it around for you to punch? If went to all that trouble, I'd BUY the game just to run it for you. :smalltongue:

FatJose
2011-11-23, 09:47 PM
There were two games in total I was in that were excellent. They ran at the same time, one I DM'ed and one I was in as a PC. Things went sour IRL on my end, though. Went a year without internet or a PC. I kept going for a few months posting from different locations sporadically but in the end had to just drop everything. I notified everyone when I was having trouble and when I had to drop the games of course. There really isn't much of an excuse for not giving people the courtesy.

Every other pbp game I've been in besides died almost immediately. In some cases the DM would post on other players threads (some in the same game if people were separated) and never drop me a reply or update.

There was a similar thread not too long ago about PBP sucking. I was going to put a decent rage post about how it's the most disappointing and suck way to game just because you are pretty much trying to hit 21 in Black Jack on the first deal. I stopped myself and decided to sign up somewhere besides D&DOG and see if maybe it was just the forum I used to frequent back when I was giving it a shot.

This last game I got into didn't even make it to Page 2.

SamBurke
2011-11-23, 11:35 PM
We should write up a list of people who frequent this thread, and get together for games. Hopefully, that means we'll have good, long, fulfilling games.

If we don't, that would mean only two things:

1. Hypocrisy on our parts.

2. That it's not the other peoples' faults.

So, who's up for a game? I AM.

Cespenar
2011-11-24, 02:57 AM
We should write up a list of people who frequent this thread, and get together for games. Hopefully, that means we'll have good, long, fulfilling games.

Shared frustration over dying games isn't enough to make a game go on its own, I think. Try your best though.

SamBurke
2011-11-24, 03:28 AM
Shared frustration over dying games isn't enough to make a game go on its own, I think. Try your best though.

Hence the second half of my post. However, I think it might end up better.

Eldan
2011-11-24, 03:59 AM
Actually, in my experience?

The people who get frustrated the most leave just as early as others. They get annoyed when the game starts going slow and the first other player drops out, then start posting more slowly themselves.

So, not a guarantee, really.

The Succubus
2011-11-24, 04:56 AM
I would punch a baby in order to get a long running open game of 7th Sea. Possibly multiple babies. I'd make one myself, but I know I don't have the time to run it properly.

A baby or a PbP? :smalltongue:

NichG
2011-11-24, 05:13 AM
I just had a random thought, though this is more about where to run/getting the structure set up than about finding players. Has anyone used a wiki to run play by post? There are places where you can basically get multiple wikis of your own for free, so you could do one wiki a game (e.g. I use wikispaces for organizing my IRL campaigns).

It might be tricky if players edited their actions, and it doesn't include a dice roller, but it does give the ability to have a well-organized game by linking between parts of the game (so people could put their character sheets up, refer and link to game sessions, put up images, etc).

Just a random thought.

Cespenar
2011-11-24, 06:25 AM
Also, from what I've seen in my longest running and still ongoing game, the perseverance of the GM is of prime importance. Any one of the players may leave and it might not change a thing, but if the GM becomes unwilling at any point, you may as well bury the game.

The aforementioned game's GM, for a point of reference, has gone through 20+ players taken in numerous re-recruitments, and only me and another player has been with the game from beginning to present time. We even have an obituary for all the "lost". Tragicomical, but also an example of the importance of the GM and his perseverance. I salute him from here.

Prime32
2011-11-24, 09:47 AM
BG has a PbP section (with private subforums), and is smaller than GitP. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php)


I suspect the OP is also partly correct about applications for this reason. Being able to quickly produce a good-looking character sheet does not promise you'll stick around to play in the game, and indeed if you're fonder of character creation than character play such a filter will select for you when it's not ideal. It also means that games start with the people who most quickly got their characters most complete, which means in all probability they have little synergy or reason to stick together. Focusing on getting a working group assembled rather than taking complete individual applications can offset this, I think, or hope. You can see whose ideas work best together and people can adapt their concepts to the group as it takes shape, so that when the game starts everyone has stuck around for a few rounds of back-and-forth during chargen (rather than posting once with a nice application and then not replying when told they've been accepted...) and everyone has established connections to one another and ideas about how they want the game to evolve, increasing their stake in its survival.At BG people usually post build stubs/concepts in the recruitment thread, and work out the details once the party is chosen. I've seen some epic stuff emerge from this. ("I'm going for sandwich psion, you have Leadership, and you have an airship? Your guys can man the ship, and I'll play its AI!")
And this is from a community devoted to character builds. :smalltongue:

I'm in a 5-player weekly IRC game right now which is probably the most stable I've ever been in (despite every member being in a different timezone :smalltongue:). As the "rewards" mentioned earlier go, there's plenty of in-jokes and fanart.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd54/Prime32_temp/OotS/Starfall%20Lake/Groupshot225dpi-1.png
Picture is out-of-date; party composition has changed since then.
Knowing the players outside the game and being able to discuss things with them helps.

Tengu_temp
2011-11-24, 10:15 AM
Hence the second half of my post. However, I think it might end up better.

That's not the point. Just because a group of people consists (potentially) of reliable PbPers doesn't mean that their chosen playstyles, or even systems, will be even remotely compatible. Besides, "huzzah, let's play a game together!" is a pretty bad approach for PbP. PbP games require a strong initial idea that will make the game different from all the others and draw players interested specifically in that idea.

That's one of the reasons I'm not interested. The other one is that I'm in too many active PbP games already.

SamBurke
2011-11-24, 11:58 AM
That's not the point. Just because a group of people consists (potentially) of reliable PbPers doesn't mean that their chosen playstyles, or even systems, will be even remotely compatible. Besides, "huzzah, let's play a game together!" is a pretty bad approach for PbP. PbP games require a strong initial idea that will make the game different from all the others and draw players interested specifically in that idea.

That's one of the reasons I'm not interested. The other one is that I'm in too many active PbP games already.

I CAN DO ANYTHING! Well, almost. And I don't have too many games for me.

So, if anyone *does* want to get together for some ideas (Mystral, I've seen your work, it's pretty good), then I'd love to. PM me or something, I get on about 6 times a day usually, so it should be answered in 12 hrs (unless I'm busy with Thanksgiving or something... *whistles*).

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-11-24, 12:17 PM
So, if anyone *does* want to get together for some ideas (Mystral, I've seen your work, it's pretty good), then I'd love to. PM me or something, I get on about 6 times a day usually, so it should be answered in 12 hrs (unless I'm busy with Thanksgiving or something... *whistles*).

See, this is the thing...I have a few game ideas I've been dying to use, but I can't run them without the right group for it, so, even if I wanted to take this up, I couldn't be certain that I'd be accepting people from this thread unless their submissions were to up par.

Once again, we reach the GM/Player Expectations of Game issue. I expect X from my players, and they expect, individually, A, B, and C of the game, and D, E, and F of the other players in the game.

For example...the game I have in mind is as follows:


Core World of Darkness
Low combat, low puzzle game
High emphasis on players exploring new and alien things
Largely sandbox
Players are average humans, probably college students
Players have no [at least initial] access to anything supernatural
Game primarily free-form, secondarily rules-based
Character personalities and interaction are of utmost importance
Other large game twists concealed at the start, to increase realism of how the characters interact with them


Some people will probably find this incredible. Others will be horrible turned away by it. Of those who love it...well, I have no idea what they'd expect, and if I can't deliver on that, they may grow tired of it.

This, I feel, is the crux of the issue.

Cespenar
2011-11-24, 12:41 PM
For example...the game I have in mind is as follows:

For the record, I'd be interested to play in a game like that.

Edit: Wait, now that I remembered, you did hint that you can drop a game due to even a minor personal problem. I'll take back that interest then. :smalltongue:

TheFallenOne
2011-11-24, 12:45 PM
Had the same experience as everyone else here: joined some interesting sounding games, then they soon died due to DM disappearance(one never logged in again, the other continued posting elsewhere ignoring his game. Even started a new PbP months later. While I didn't follow it, I can guess how it went down).

This happened twice, then I learned from the experience. I only join games now where I know the DM to be a reliable poster(it helps I play at Arena and Neverending Dungeon, which has a rather big playerbase of which I know first-hand how reliable they are). If I stumble upon a really intrigueing game from someone I don't know, I check his posting history to see how he did before in other games.

What I don't get is all those threads in the Recruitment subforum of players looking for a DM. That just gets you a random guy who hasn't invested any prior time into the game world and story, so he has way less attachment to it. Bad idea.

Whenever I start the PbP I've been planning I'll try to fill half the spots with invites. That gives me some reliable players I can fall back upon if someone drops out.
Oh, and never be afraid to NPC a character instead of waiting forever. If the player doesn't post in two days, take over. If it happens too often, give them a warning and then drop them. Long periods of inactivity kill interest pretty quickly.

Savannah
2011-11-24, 12:47 PM
For example...the game I have in mind is as follows:

I would totally play that! (And, for the record, I try not to expect anything so I'm not disappointed no matter how it turns out :smalltongue:)

Roland St. Jude
2011-11-24, 01:01 PM
For example...the game I have in mind is as follows:


Core World of Darkness
Low combat, low puzzle game
High emphasis on players exploring new and alien things
Largely sandbox
Players are average humans, probably college students
Players have no [at least initial] access to anything supernatural
Game primarily free-form, secondarily rules-based
Character personalities and interaction are of utmost importance
Other large game twists concealed at the start, to increase realism of how the characters interact with them


Some people will probably find this incredible. Others will be horrible turned away by it. Of those who love it...well, I have no idea what they'd expect, and if I can't deliver on that, they may grow tired of it.

This, I feel, is the crux of the issue.

Count me in. :smallamused:

More generally, the slowest, least successful games I've been in have been on the small boards like the ones the OP suggests. I've been in several great games here, some that lasted for months, one I'm DMing that's in its second year, and one that's been going for longer than the five or so years I've been in it. Though, admittedly, I've joined many that've folded, too.

I like the PbP-minded set up of MythWeavers, but I haven't found games there any more hardy. From the comments of others and what little discussion I've seen over there, they have the same attrition issues we do.

Morph Bark
2011-11-24, 02:24 PM
There one pro about a smaller community: it's easier to make friends with other people and stay in touch with a particular person via that forum. Perhaps even more with a chatbox available.

May I ask though, Mystral (and others, if they feel like replying to this question), do you prefer PbP games over real-time ones? (As in, face-to-face or via Skype/Ventrilo/IM/IRC/etc.)


...also, I hatekeyboads tht fail ith mot letters haf the tme. This post was o hard to type ot corrctly that i ost more tme on it than I wold've liked. ._.

Eldan
2011-11-24, 02:40 PM
I like PbP for several reasons. They do have advantages over games by face.

The DM has more time to think about what he's doing. Improv becomes easier, since it's not really improv.

The medium is written. People can think longer about what they write, and the results tend to be more polished. There's usually a lot more description, as well.

Fortuna
2011-11-24, 03:13 PM
Exalted, in particular, has the distinct advantage that you can produce truly epic stunts without losing any more time than you were spending anyway. Which is probably part of why I have only ever seen three-die stunts in PbP.

Mystral
2011-11-24, 03:20 PM
I enjoy having both.

ATM I don't have pen and paper, but I have two chat rpg games. I like having pbp, though, because I can play them whenever I have time and have a lot of time to think about what my character would do. Sometimes I even go for a walk before posting, I usually get a few good ideas that way.

Victoria
2011-11-24, 03:23 PM
Has anyone used a wiki to run play by post? There are places where you can basically get multiple wikis of your own for free, so you could do one wiki a game (e.g. I use wikispaces for organizing my IRL campaigns).

Wikimedia software is free and open source, it's just a matter of getting PHP-enabled webspace.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-11-24, 03:55 PM
I share your frustration, Mystral. I moved to a different country, lost my steady gaming group (had been gaming with them for maybe 14, 15 years) and really had set my hopes on pbp on GitP. It actually bothered and annoyed me to no end. And then to think I was relatively lucky: I applied for about 10 games, got accepted in four and one of them actually worked out. With the huge community here and the anonimity of the net this is actually what is to be expected. So, what helped me were two things:

-Lower my expectations. While it does not solve the problem, it does reduce the frustration.
-I started my own campaign. While a DM is still at the mercy of his players, I at least have the 'power' to advance the campaign, taking over for a player when he/she is missing for a while. Of the five players, I had two drop-outs in four months. The other three are attending regularly and seem to be genuinely interested in their character and, as I hope, in the campaign. I guess I was again lucky in this respect. I recently poked someone I know to join the game, someone I can email or call and shout at if he does not post. I am hoping that will help out as well as an extra 'anchor'. The game still is slower than I wanted at first, but at least it is rolling (and I can blame myself as much as any player for that low speed), so I am happy.

The other benefit of DMing myself is that DMing takes up a bit more time than playing, so it is more effective at giving me my much needed regular D&D-shot.

SamBurke
2011-11-24, 09:29 PM
See, this is the thing...I have a few game ideas I've been dying to use, but I can't run them without the right group for it, so, even if I wanted to take this up, I couldn't be certain that I'd be accepting people from this thread unless their submissions were to up par.

Once again, we reach the GM/Player Expectations of Game issue. I expect X from my players, and they expect, individually, A, B, and C of the game, and D, E, and F of the other players in the game.

For example...the game I have in mind is as follows:


Core World of Darkness
Low combat, low puzzle game
High emphasis on players exploring new and alien things
Largely sandbox
Players are average humans, probably college students
Players have no [at least initial] access to anything supernatural
Game primarily free-form, secondarily rules-based
Character personalities and interaction are of utmost importance
Other large game twists concealed at the start, to increase realism of how the characters interact with them


Some people will probably find this incredible. Others will be horrible turned away by it. Of those who love it...well, I have no idea what they'd expect, and if I can't deliver on that, they may grow tired of it.

This, I feel, is the crux of the issue.

I'll play this, man. I have no idea what the ruleset is, but I'd play it fast.

Surrealistik
2011-11-24, 09:33 PM
I agree with much of what you say in the OP.

That said, PbP being what it is, the best 'fix' is to investigate the DMs of prospective games, and use their post history to gauge whether or not they're flakes; works for me. In the vast majority of cases, those games I've played in that have died out have been due to player (not mine typically :smalltongue:), not DM inactivity.

Morph Bark
2011-11-25, 11:39 AM
I like PbP for several reasons. They do have advantages over games by face.

The DM has more time to think about what he's doing. Improv becomes easier, since it's not really improv.

The medium is written. People can think longer about what they write, and the results tend to be more polished. There's usually a lot more description, as well.

I enjoy having both.

ATM I don't have pen and paper, but I have two chat rpg games. I like having pbp, though, because I can play them whenever I have time and have a lot of time to think about what my character would do. Sometimes I even go for a walk before posting, I usually get a few good ideas that way.

Thank you both for replying. :smallsmile:

Certainly good points and why I also like PbP, though prefer the face-to-face's atmosphere moreso. When in a PbP game, what pacing do you prefer? I've DM'd... three games now? On my third at current, which is going steady, but with five players, combat rounds usually go one-a-week (which is a limit I impose to keep it moving, since one player is currently in his exam period).

Mystral
2011-11-25, 01:54 PM
I like my posts on a "every 2 days" basis. The DM should be able to post every day, at least once. He should also roll for automatic checks if the characters have no way to influence them, like spot checks. I always hate it when the game doesn't move forward for 3 days because the DM is waiting for player X to make his reflex save.

crimson77
2011-11-25, 04:40 PM
Here are some helpful suggestions that I have found to keep a game moving:

1. Reject characters who may be the "strong silent type" or the "super dumb" or any concept that deters from party unity (e.g., monster classes, evil parties). A weak chatty character concept will do much better in a PBP game than a powerful silent character.

2. Give players 24 hours to post for combat (except the weekend which counts as 48) and then the round ends.

3. Use party initiative (NPC then players or vice versa).

4. Use simple rules (basic dnd such as S&W, L&L, 3.5 core rules, etc). Try to speed up rules in any way you can. Remember the closer it is to freeform the easier it will be for players. Thus, the rules and dice are to add the element of random and structure into your freeform game.

5. Always try to post something that other players (and the DM) can respond to.

6. Reward creating thinking with XP.

7. If a player has not posted for a week (or logged into the site) then I PM them. If they do not respond, give them another week to respond then drop them. Continue play as usual using them as an NPC if needed until they can be written out. Never wait for longer than 24 hours (48 if weekends) for a player to respond.

8. Try to pre-screen players (or potential DM) so that I know if they drop out of games quickly. Do a quick search of their posting history; You can figure out a lot about how long their games lasted depending upon prior history.

9. Do not base the quest on anyone player but try to develop plots with all the players along the same lines or give them reason to follow one of the player's plot.

10. Most non-essential roleplaying is skipped (e.g., buying and selling normal equipment) and is done in OOC. If there is something special, (e.g., a magic sword) then it can be done in character.

11. Try to keep a NPC with the party to help move things along and prompt them (e.g., "which direction should we go?")

12. Skip all non-essential traveling and just discuss it in a post. Thus a party might travel for 4 days without any problems then then have a random encounter on the 5th day which will be played out.

13. PVP is not tolerated and players who engage in it will be dropped from the game.

14. Orientate new players to PBP and discuss how it is different from IRL gaming.

15. Let players be co-creators of the world and allow yourself to have a loose idea of the plot but know it will change over the months to come as new ideas come to you.

16. Always be thinking of new players when you suspect a player will drop. Invited players (or potential players who read your game) will be more likely to stick around.

17. If you have four players and there is a fifth that is really into your game, take on the fifth knowing that you will likely have a player drop. Also, have a "stock" recruitment thread ready to be posted if you have a player drop. Often you can have a new player in your game in less than 48 hours.

18. Tell people when you will be MIA before it happens. This goes a long way to keeping a good relationship with other players and the DM. This allows a character to be an NPC for a week while someone is on vacation.

19. Forgive players and DMs that become MIA; we all have life events that cause us to drop our internet lives. However, keep your game moving and find a replacement (replacement DMs are harder but they can be found).

20. If you are a DM, always keep the game moving. Don't wait for a players response if it is within a designated time limit (e.g., a day or a week). It is important to keep the momentum up. Low momentum will keep players from checking the site.

21. Bookmark or subscribe to your game (and check daily).

22. DMs, only ask for character concepts rather than full character sheets. This will allow for the DM to have a quick idea of the character. Also people are not wasting their time creating a full deep character. Think of a few paragraphs (or sentences) that can help define a character personality and back story.

23. Be upfront about the posting rates for games. How often the DM and players are expected to post. Post often even if it is just a little something.

24. Speed up trivial game components that maybe fun in IRL gaming but can be boring in PBP gaming (traveling, buying equipment, haggling, gathering information). Try to do as much as this as you can in OOC and just post the results/lists within IC. However, play out important quest things (e.g., haggling for a quest item that has to be purchased from a witch).

25. [I know I have mentioned this above but it is important enough for its own bullet] Never wait for longer than 24 hours (48 if weekends) for a player to respond.

Morph Bark
2011-11-25, 05:28 PM
I like my posts on a "every 2 days" basis. The DM should be able to post every day, at least once. He should also roll for automatic checks if the characters have no way to influence them, like spot checks. I always hate it when the game doesn't move forward for 3 days because the DM is waiting for player X to make his reflex save.

Yeah, this is why I make a lot of rolls for the players instead of waiting for them. Saves, initiatives and passive skill/ability checks amongst them.

With smaller groups, especially more dedicated ones, it's always easier to post more often.

Autopsibiofeeder
2011-11-25, 07:52 PM
Thank you both for replying. :smallsmile:

Certainly good points and why I also like PbP, though prefer the face-to-face's atmosphere moreso. When in a PbP game, what pacing do you prefer? I've DM'd... three games now? On my third at current, which is going steady, but with five players, combat rounds usually go one-a-week (which is a limit I impose to keep it moving, since one player is currently in his exam period).

In the hope your questions were in general as well as directed to the persons you quoted:

I find it hard to define it in terms of combat rounds (as they can get complicated) but I prefer a minimum of one post per two days. I actually encourage players to post even 'hollow' posts, just so I know they are reading up and being involved. Sometimes a character is just not directly involved, but I want the player to be. Then I would rather have a "Peter sceptically eyes the shaman and then turns his gaze to Alex, wondering how he is going to reply to the question" than nothing, leaving me wondering whether all players are 'tuned in'.

Strawberries
2011-11-27, 12:23 PM
For example...the game I have in mind is as follows:


Oooh, me too! Me too! I want to play, too! :smallbiggrin:

On a more on-topic note, I think this list I came up with for the guide to pbp may be relevant:




----Problem: Games tend to die because players drop out
This is one of the most common problems, in my experience. A player stops posting for whatever reason, other people keep waiting for him/her, game dies.
Possible solution: As a player, warn others if you are going to drop out. Noone will judge someone who says “Guys, I’ve got too much on my plate, I have to quit”. This gives the DM and the other players an heads-up, as they know they shouldn’t wait for you.
As a GM, as addressed in other parts of the guide, it’s probably helpful to establish a “maximum inactivity time”, at least during combat, which is the maximum time a player is allowed to go without posting before the dm takes control of their character or the action skips to another player. Ideally, this time should be shorter during combat, longer outside combat (as then the other players have more chances to step in).
Also, as a GM, remember that you have the option to start recruiting again to fill the empty spots.


----Problem: Game stall because people wait for other to post.
This may in itself have various causes:

a) people don’t post because they don’t know what to do.
I’ve seen this happen quite a lot (and happened to myself, too). As a player, you think “Uhm, I’ve really no idea how to act in this situation, I’ll think about it for another while/ wait for someone else to take the lead”. Then people forgot, and the game dies.
The solution: post OOC. Say that you’re stuck. For instance, say “Hey, guys, Sir McINT should know the answer to this riddle, but I’m stumped. Anyone has any ideas?” Brainstorm plans, courses of action, whatever you like. Chances are, the barbarian’s player knew the answer, and was waiting for you because he felt that it would be out of character for Mr Smashalot to say it.

Which brings me to

b) people don’t post because they think their character wouldn’ t say/do anything
Which is fine, really. If it’s out of character for someone to act or speak, they shouldn’t. Except the other players have no way of knowing why you aren’t posting. So they’ll still wait for you, leading to the game stalling and dying.
The solution: that’s easy, but rarely applied. If your character does nothing, post saying you are doing nothing. I. e. “Julia Introverted waits by the window, uncomfortable in the presence of the large group of people and not sure of what to say to break the ice”. This way, your character still doesn’t move or speak, but people know you (the player) have read and reacted to their posts.
Moreover, both as a player and a GM, poke people. A lot. Either by posting in the OOC thread or by PM. PMS work wonders in cases like these.

----PBPs are slow, therefore people lose interest.

That’s not an astonishing piece of information. PBPs are slow because you have to wait for people from all around the world to post. There are timezone issues, as well as real life issue. Combat is going to take days.
The solution. That’s not an easy one, as pbps are by nature much, much slower than real life games, but there are some things both GM and players can do.
As a GM, beside the aforementioned time limit, you can, for instance, do some rolls yourself. For instance, rolling initiative for the players (as opposed to post “roll initiative” and wait for everyone) can save days, and free the first player to focus on the active part of combat. Same goes with spots/lsten checks. Please note than you should tell in advance to the players f you are using this system, and be sure everyone agrees.
As a player, if you aren’t sure if/what to roll, roll all the same, and ask the DM to disregard if not relevant. This saves time as you don’t have back/forths like “Can I make a knowledge check?” “Sure” “Well, then [roll=knowledge]” “You have these info:…” This may seem a trivial exchange, but in a pbp can easily mean a day of real-time. Compare with “Can I make a knowledge check? [roll=knowledge]” ”Yes you can. You have these info:… / No, you can’t, it doesn’t apply”. Half the time, same result.

General advice

My general advice, not linked to any of the problems in particular, is to talk OOC whenever possible. Share opinions, talk about unrelated subject, whatever. Because it’s a good way to get to know your players and/or your gamemaster, and it’s always funnier to game with people you know and like than with total strangers. Moreover, there is a thing I consider of great importance: this is a forum. People can’t see your face, and can’t tell if you are enjoying yourself or you’d prefer to do something else (more combat/roleplaying/intrigue/humor. They don’t know if you’re arguing IC because your character is going to be fiercely opposed to a course of action, but you think it’s a great idea, or if it’s you as a player that think the idea is stupid. The only way you have to let them know if to post OOC. Feedback (both from players to the GM and vice-versa and between players) is a fundamental aid in having successful pbps.


On a more personal note, I love pbp. Not only it's the only way I get to play (there are unfortunately no gamers in my city, or they hide very well), I also feel more freedom of expression in the written medium: I'm a shy person, and I'd feel more self-conscious in a face-to-face medium. But yeah, the main factor is the lack of other players here. :smallwink:

Tyndmyr
2011-11-27, 12:33 PM
See, this is the thing...I have a few game ideas I've been dying to use, but I can't run them without the right group for it, so, even if I wanted to take this up, I couldn't be certain that I'd be accepting people from this thread unless their submissions were to up par.

Once again, we reach the GM/Player Expectations of Game issue. I expect X from my players, and they expect, individually, A, B, and C of the game, and D, E, and F of the other players in the game.

For example...the game I have in mind is as follows:


Core World of Darkness
Low combat, low puzzle game
High emphasis on players exploring new and alien things
Largely sandbox
Players are average humans, probably college students
Players have no [at least initial] access to anything supernatural
Game primarily free-form, secondarily rules-based
Character personalities and interaction are of utmost importance
Other large game twists concealed at the start, to increase realism of how the characters interact with them


Some people will probably find this incredible. Others will be horrible turned away by it. Of those who love it...well, I have no idea what they'd expect, and if I can't deliver on that, they may grow tired of it.

This, I feel, is the crux of the issue.

Mmm, possibly. Let me prefix this with the statement that while I happen to own the WoD core rulebook, I've never played a game...or even read through the whole book. If it offers some degree of freedom(such as, say, not enforcing a strict party mentality, which is often somewhat odd in a modern world) and offers good opportunity for advancement, I'd be totally down to play.

I find it fairly easy to keep up with playing pbp games, tbh...it's the DMing that's a lot more challenging. Not only does it require gobs more time invested, it also tends to be more problematic when you do get busy and miss posting. I'm still contemplating ways to fix this, but it's definitely a thorny issue.