"How to betray a party" threat.

[SalverioN]

Greetings,
I made this threat because I was curious if anyone ever tried to play an evil character in a party full of good people (and also to get some ideas for this recent campaign I'm playing) :P
I'm currently in a campaign where I play a ninja/ghost face killer, member of an assassin guild who were once minions of a psionic race. In this campaign these psions are trying to get revenge on the humans/elves etc, so they imprisoned a dragon who helped the good guys.
Our party of adventurers are currently looking for psion remnants in order to get information about the imprisoned dragon because the good guys need his help. My character joined the party as one of the king's scouts who had intel on psions whereabouts. My guild are also looking for the psions so the asked my to join this party so I could learn more information and/or delay the party from reaching their objective.
I made them follow a fake journal, made the guild steal a valuable shield (anti-psion powers) and replace it with a cursed one, and now I'm looking for something new to do to create disorey and chaos. :P
In our party we have a member of this psion race, who was taken by monks and raised as one of them. I though I could make him believe his subconsiously evil so I paid a wizard to cast a "custom" made Nightmare spell on him, in which he sees himself with a group of psion talking about a masterplan. I also told the DM to make a nightmare about a "forgotten childhood memory" he had at the monastery he was raised.

[navar100]

Don't.

Just don't.

Stop.

Do not think about it.

Forget the idea.

Choose not to be a jerk.

[CommodoreCrunch]

You will be hated. Just saying.

[Krazzman]

Try to break their will one by one. If the Party turns insane, you could turn them to your goods. But do it stealthy. Poison your food, do things you are immune to but they are not etc.

Exchanging their Equipment could become bad when they realize it. Maybe curse their Waterskin/other gear to do other things and weaken them.

Try to spy ahead and hoard up a good chunk of the treasure they would get. Steal from them to raise your funds. Let things go missing.

Oh the monk has a magic amulet? Let's throw it down this chute. *whistle*

[Zombimode]

You will be hated. Just saying.

Definately not universaly true. It really depends on the playstyle and probably on the maturity of the players.

There is one important advive: talk to your DM first, before you even introduce the character.

[Goodwin]

Yikes!

Have to agree with the others. This is a sure way to be hated by your friends very fast. They'll only be messed along with so long before there's either some harsh feelings, or you slip up. The bad guy always loses, so eventually someone's going to figure this out and you'll be rerollin' a new character!

Advise aside, to answer your question. If your DM is letting you cast custom spells on your team mates, that's probably a good way to keep messing with them in all sorts of ways. Since you have access to snagging bits of hair or other keepsakes from camp, rituals and such should be easy to mess them up. Killing helpful NPCs or just people that they like should also work.

Just don't be surprised if everyone stops having fun, especially if the DM is letting you do extra things against them without letting them have a chance. Its not really fair. The bad guy in the party always sounds neat, but unless you're planning on having an epiphany with the character soon and he becomes a super good guy, those other players are going to get annoyed.

Edit: I've never seen players unite and fight so hard against anything else then another player who's been messing with them so badly. >.<

[noparlpf]

I would suggest not doing so. Generally people don't like when somebody's character concept is "to mess with the party".

[Jamin]

Try to break their will one by one. If the Party turns insane, you could turn them to your goods. But do it stealthy. Poison your food, do things you are immune to but they are not etc.

Exchanging their Equipment could become bad when they realize it. Maybe curse their Waterskin/other gear to do other things and weaken them.

Try to spy ahead and hoard up a good chunk of the treasure they would get. Steal from them to raise your funds. Let things go missing.

Oh the monk has a magic amulet? Let's throw it down this chute. *whistle*

DO NOT DO THIS!! If you do this I suggest you start looking for a new group.

[Dr.Epic]

Don't.

Just don't.

Stop.

Do not think about it.

Forget the idea.

Choose not to be a jerk.

This thread in 5 seconds.:smalltongue:

But yeah, I agree. Don't. There's no point other than your own amusement and upsetting everyone else in what should be fun. The DM may even throw something along so you just die while you attempt to ruin it for everyone.

[Ravens_cry]

Clear it with them before hand.
Some people have a harder time than others keeping it "in the game."
If someone is the type, even unconsciously, to take such things personally, don't.
Drama in-game is not worth Drama™ in Real Life™.

[TroubleBrewing]

It's been said plenty, but it really can't be overstated: Do not do this.

D&D is a collaborative story telling game, and what you're doing is the opposite.

[SalverioN]

Ahahaha I like your replies.
I don't believe that I'll be hated by my friends cause they've done worse things to when we've tried to play an evil party. (Revenge harharharrrr)
Well I'm only messing with the party so I could delay them, if I wanted to kill them it would be the easy way to end the campaign nad make everyone hate me. I know that my character will probably die if they find out what I'm doing but I can't help it :P
Also our DM liked my ideas and encouraged me to keep up with this (so he could make up more sessions/side quest etc). He enjoyed the part when I made up a journal about a party who went searching for the evil guys like we are doing now. "They just fell for it? I can't believe this.". The fun part is that even off-game noone knows about my character. I mostly do this for the role-play, my mission is just to spy on them and delay them. The reason I'm screwing with the monk is to make him believe he's in fault of some "random" NPC deaths. Is there a "blackout" or modify memory spell so I could use on him or should I just propose my DM to do something like that? :D

Edit: Obviously our DM has something in mind to keep telling me "Do this. It's ok"... I don't quite know what.

[Tyndmyr]

Do it all solely socially. Find out what each char wants. Manipulate them subtly using that. Never use lies that you can be caught in. Don't greedily steal loot from the party. Don't resort to stabbing people. In fact, never do anything that requires a die roll if you can help it.

Do not attempt to "modify memories" or the like. There is such a spell in a third party book...but it's pretty abuseable. I wouldn't permit it in games anymore. It' way too overt, risks failure, and removes control from his char. A better course of action is to come up with a logical course of action he could have taken to prevent their deaths. Make him feel guilt.

[SalverioN]

Do it all solely socially. Find out what each char wants. Manipulate them subtly using that. Never use lies that you can be caught in. Don't greedily steal loot from the party. Don't resort to stabbing people. In fact, never do anything that requires a die roll if you can help it.

Do not attempt to "modify memories" or the like. There is such a spell in a third party book...but it's pretty abuseable. I wouldn't permit it in games anymore. It' way too overt, risks failure, and removes control from his char. A better course of action is to come up with a logical course of action he could have taken to prevent their deaths. Make him feel guilt.

Hmmm that's a great idea and I have to stab anyone. :P
I mostly missleaded the party, never did something that would affect our effectiveness, and that's what I want to keep doing, so I don't want the monk to be less effective but to "tease" him.

[ILM]

Ahahaha I like your replies.
I don't believe that I'll be hated by my friends cause they've done worse things to when we've tried to play an evil party. (Revenge harharharrrr)
Well I'm only messing with the party so I could delay them, if I wanted to kill them it would be the easy way to end the campaign nad make everyone hate me. I know that my character will probably die if they find out what I'm doing but I can't help it :P
Also our DM liked my ideas and encouraged me to keep up with this (so he could make up more sessions/side quest etc). He enjoyed the part when I made up a journal about a party who went searching for the evil guys like we are doing now. "They just fell for it? I can't believe this.". The fun part is that even off-game noone knows about my character. I mostly do this for the role-play, my mission is just to spy on them and delay them. The reason I'm screwing with the monk is to make him believe he's in fault of some "random" NPC deaths. Is there a "blackout" or modify memory spell so I could use on him or should I just propose my DM to do something like that? :D

Edit: Obviously our DM has something in mind to keep telling me "Do this. It's ok"... I don't quite know what.
The DM's encouraging you to mess with the rest of the group in contradiction with the general objectives of the party, and to take revenge for what they did when you all (notice the difference here) played evil characters in another game?

This is like watching a trainwreck in slow-motion.

http://www.pacersfans.com/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[Doughnut Master]

It can be done. But you have to have the right DM and the right kind of group. You also have to be comfortable with the fact that your character will likely die/be exiled from the group and you'll have to reroll.

Last campaign, my LE character and the CG Cleric of Pelor essentially had an escalating prank war of poisons, thefts, and mind games. Very serious in-game. Hilarious at the table.

More fun though is to try and work it so that instead of destroying the party, you make it work towards your own goals. It's more subtle, and you'll probably live longer. Who knows, maybe in the next campaign your character will be the BBEG?


That said, if those initial conditions are not met, don't do it. You're there so everyone can have fun, not so you can be a jerk.

[SalverioN]

This is like watching a trainwreck in slow-motion.

http://www.pacersfans.com/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

Most likely this would happen. I'm just playing my character and enjoying the game. A sudden change of heart is kinda impossible now because the party is already heading to map locations I defined. What I should tell them? "Hey guys I was a spy for the bad guys and we are heading to nowhere and I though you should know now that I don't want to do this anymore so please forgive me and don't kill me."

[SamBurke]

Definately not universaly true. It really depends on the playstyle and probably on the maturity of the players.

There is one important advive: talk to your DM first, before you even introduce the character.

Any good players will hate your guts, sir. Why? Either they came expecting you to betray them, or they did not. We see an all-good party, with one evil person (you). Thus, it is safe to say they did not come expecting you to betray them.

Further, if you do betray them, trying to destroy their characters, you will most likely be seen as:

a. Ruining the fun of the game. DnD is a friends' game, a game of fellowship. You work TOGETHER to achieve your goals.
b. A contrarian. Someone who is breaking up the flow of the game, and possibly friendship. There are a ton of threads on this board about people who betrayed the party. It rarely works out.

Here's the only way I'd ever betray a party: Never. A way it MIGHT work out is if every party member is forewarned and OK with their character getting backstabbed. If you can get permission, go ahead.

I warn against it, though, for your future with your current group.

[ILM]

Most likely this would happen. I'm just playing my character and enjoying the game. A sudden change of heart is kinda impossible now because the party is already heading to map locations I defined. What I should tell them? "Hey guys I was a spy for the bad guys and we are heading to nowhere and I though you should know now that I don't want to do this anymore so please forgive me and don't kill me."
Well in all seriousness, if you regret taking that course of action, you could always petition your DM to retcon the whole thing about your involvement. Some bad guy manipulated the PCs, another faked the map, and you're in the exact same situation except now you're playing ball.

Or you could see this to the end, but as a player I would not like being on the receiving end of what you did. And by "not like" I don't mean "haha oh you bugger, you fooled us good, now have another beer", I mean "screw you guys, I get backstabbed enough in life, I don't need it in my games".

[SalverioN]

I never thought I would be that dramatic situation, I'm actually enjoying the game like this and I believe it would be fun to be in their place not knowing that there's a traitor in the party. Since I'm not going to kill them or such and it's most likely that my character will die in order for them to proceed to the next chapter of this campaign I don't know if things will go "that" bad. Most likely is that they'll mock me for the attempt. But I can't be sure.

[Goodwin]

If you want to get back on track with the party, but still be a bad guy, have the DM have your character double crossed.

"I used to work for the bad guy, but then they turned on me. Now I'm gonna teach them how bad an idea that was." *Menacing look*

That way you get to be an interesting anti-hero instead of a meanspirited something or other. Your character played his part in the grand evil scheme, but then became an annoyance or liability. Maybe he has one of those trinkets that protect from psionic stuff. So when the big bad guy is about to obliterate your friends who are helpless to his most powerful psionic force, you grab him, lift him in the air and yell "noooo," and throw him off the bridge into the garbage chute of a massive station designed to destroy stars.

[FearlessGnome]

Hey, if the DM is on board with this, have fun. Just bear in mind:
1: Likely, you will die. Make your next character very obviously good, because leaving room for doubt will be bad.
2: The day will come, near the end of the campaign, when you will have to show your true colours. The best way to accomplish this without upsetting the players will likely be to time your big reveal with the start of a big climactic battle.
Make sure the DM sets it up so that the environment massively favors team Evil. The Baddies will know what the party consists of, because you will have told them. Casters will find the enemy has Energy Immunity (or resistance, depending on the level) against their favorite spells. Important magic items stored in the communal extra dimensional storage will be missing. If at all possible, the wizard's emergency scroll of Teleport has been swapped for Explosive Runes. And the first action taken in the big battle is you taking out the frailest caster in the party. Actions speak plenty loud; that's your reveal. Leaves very little doubt. Don't try to survive the whole battle - your buddies will raise you if they win. You are too valuable to them not to get a happy epilogue.

Most likely, though, you'll just die, and good will prevail. Have fun.

[Zombimode]

Any good players will hate your guts, sir. Why? Either they came expecting you to betray them, or they did not. We see an all-good party, with one evil person (you). Thus, it is safe to say they did not come expecting you to betray them.

Further, if you do betray them, trying to destroy their characters, you will most likely be seen as:

a. Ruining the fun of the game. DnD is a friends' game, a game of fellowship. You work TOGETHER to achieve your goals.
b. A contrarian. Someone who is breaking up the flow of the game, and possibly friendship. There are a ton of threads on this board about people who betrayed the party. It rarely works out.

Here's the only way I'd ever betray a party: Never. A way it MIGHT work out is if every party member is forewarned and OK with their character getting backstabbed. If you can get permission, go ahead.

I warn against it, though, for your future with your current group.

Betrayal, like death, hope, disillusionment and salvation, is a very strong element of drama. There is no reason why it shouldnt be included in PnP campaign a priori. Are you objecting against NPCs betraying the group as well? If not, consider this: PCs are just characters in the world. Whats the difference in a PC betraying the rest of the group to an NPC doing the same?

Of course, there is one difference. Its a player leting his character doing bad things against other players characters. This will be a bit unexpected, since normaly only the DM let his characters do bad things against the players characters. But is this really a meaningful difference? The surprise just makes the betrayal more powerful, which is a good thing.

Your response reads like one player betrays the other players. But thats not the case. One players character betrays the other players characters. Only if someone can not distinguish between those two layers it becomes a problem.
Thus, if betrayal should be done or not is not only a question of playstyle. Certainly not for every campaign a theme like this is appropriate. Its also, if not even more so, a question of player maturity.
Thats all Im saying.

[Tyndmyr]

Hmmm that's a great idea and I have to stab anyone. :P
I mostly missleaded the party, never did something that would affect our effectiveness, and that's what I want to keep doing, so I don't want the monk to be less effective but to "tease" him.

See, here's the thing. You want your player to be after somewhat different things than the group. And to be creative, sneaky, clever, and deceitful in doing so.

But your char is still a member of the party. They keep you alive, you keep them alive. So, you need to balance these, and if ever one is going to be more important...it's the one what keeps you alive, not the one that feeds your desires/greed. So, you never want to truly screw the party over, merely manipulate them a little for your own ends.

Bonus points if you do it such that, if you are discovered, you can plausibly claim that you didn't want to do it, but had to for the greater good.

[Mastikator]

I've tried making an evil character in a predominantly good party, it's a bad idea, and you shouldn't hold it against them if they kill you. In fact, killing your character is probably the only way to redeem you as a player in their eyes.

[Tyndmyr]

It's doable...but make your char complex. Have solid motivations for being in the party. No, "loot and xp" are not quite sufficient. Note that you can care about those close to you while still being evil.

Cardboard evil chars in a good party is a terrible thing. Just because you're evil doesn't force you to be a poor team player.

[CTrees]

I played in a game where, in character, it made the most sense for two of us to actually work with the villain. It was complicated, but the characters weren't even evil - I was TN, the other was CN. It was the pragmatic choice; given our characters' goals and aspirations, it was difficult to justify NOT betraying the party, given the political goals of the (good) NPCs they were allying with and the goals of the ostensible villain. Beyond that, it made for the most interesting character arc and fantastic roleplaying opportunities. We were even ready, after the initial betrayal, to roll up new characters and have our old characters become recurring villains (that duo was FANTASTICALLY set up for scry'n'die hit and run tactics).

However, it generated so much hatred, confusion, and general discontent that it was quickly retconned into uses of Dominate Person or something. Despite our best efforts, and the approval of the DM, the other players were the problem, and they were necessary for the game to progress.

[SalverioN]

Well as I said before my guild is also looking for the psions for unknown (to me) reasons, so in theory I've got the same objective as my party but I also have to delay them so my guild would be a step ahead of us. To be double-crossed is a great idea and that way my character will help the party succeed on their mission in order to avenge the guild, and so I'll somehow join the party.
The "likely I'll die" thing is what I though when I talked with the DM about this, as I also said obviously he has other plans or maybe he's waiting for me to offer something (like the double-cross idea Goodwin said).

[navar100]

Betrayal, like death, hope, disillusionment and salvation, is a very strong element of drama. There is no reason why it shouldnt be included in PnP campaign a priori. Are you objecting against NPCs betraying the group as well? If not, consider this: PCs are just characters in the world. Whats the difference in a PC betraying the rest of the group to an NPC doing the same?

Of course, there is one difference. Its a player leting his character doing bad things against other players characters. This will be a bit unexpected, since normaly only the DM let his characters do bad things against the players characters. But is this really a meaningful difference? The surprise just makes the betrayal more powerful, which is a good thing.

Your response reads like one player betrays the other players. But thats not the case. One players character betrays the other players characters. Only if someone can not distinguish between those two layers it becomes a problem.
Thus, if betrayal should be done or not is not only a question of playstyle. Certainly not for every campaign a theme like this is appropriate. Its also, if not even more so, a question of player maturity.
Thats all Im saying.

That's the whole point. It is a multiverse of difference between a PC betraying the party and an NPC doing it. As an aside it could depend on the NPC. If it's one just met for the adventure, nasty but ok. If it's one who's been with the party since the beginning and it's a True Betrayal as opposed Domination or some such or a set-up from the beginning, that teeters towards a DM who hates his players and just wants to screw them, which is a whole other issue.

It is has nothing to do with maturity to be against the idea of a player betraying the party. One could argue it is more mature to choose not to. Your fun as a player does not come at the expense of the other players. If you must, must play a game where you just have to, have to play a character who betrays the party because you are incapable of playing a cooperative game, play an RPG that caters to such a thing, i.e. Paranoia. Have fun and get all your betrayal jollies you'd like. If not Paranoia, even Call of Cthulu can allow for it with someone secretly being a cult member who wants Cthulu to come forth.

You're not even limited to RPGs. Diplomacy is a great game to get your betrayal fix. Betrayal At House On The Hill is made for such a thing, of course there's no guarantee you're the traitor but play often enough you will be. Cosmic Encounter has seen play where someone asks for allies only to purposely lose and laugh while all their ships go to the warp. Play Dominion, buy up all the attack cards, and crush your fellow players to your heart's content.

[killem2]

Don't do it. That's all I'm saying. this game was not made for that sorta thing.

If you want to play evil, the party should be evil.

[W3bDragon]

All the people that are telling you not to do it. They're not wrong. Since we don't know much about the maturity of your group, or their playing style, saying "Don't Do it" is the safe bet. A lost roleplaying opportunity like that can be replaced, but a lost campaign is more difficult, let alone lost friendships.

That said, I have to say that I've been in a similar situation before, playing an evil character with his own secret agenda in a group of mostly neutral/good PCs. What made it work, beyond the obvious (mature group/appropriate playstyle of campaign) was that my character's agenda pertained to long term goals that I'd achieve piecemeal. The biggest part of my agenda was to infiltrate the organization that the PCs are working for, and spy on the organization, and its most important members (including the PCs) and report about it once in a while. As such, I had no direct conflict with the party's overall objective and had no desire or interest in hindering them. On the contrary, I had to prove myself to them as a valuable team member so I would be trusted with the top level information that could come our way.

At no point did I work contrary to the party, with the exception of relaying information back to my bosses. About one third of the way through the campaign, the DM and I arranged a player reveal of who my character really was without revealing it to the characters. This was done by the players watching a short solo with my character going about his spying business. It was very dramatic and for the rest of the campaign, the players had fun trying to catch me out and I had fun trying to stay out of trouble. Eventually, about two thirds of the way into the campaign, the PCs found out. But by then, we were so intrinsically tied to each other because of the trouble we're collectively in, no one could be left behind. It also helped that my character had a mean streak that the other PCs feared, and no one wanted to take him on one on one. (Gotta love 2nd ed specialty priest of Bane)

We only had one pvp fight, 3 sessions before the end of the campaign. The situation pretty much played itself out where my character had a shot at taking out the PC that found him out with no repercussions. Before I did anything, I told the player: "Listen, this is a perfect time for my character to attack yours. Can you think of a way out of it?" He said: "Nah, its fine though, go for it. It makes sense that's what your character would do. No hard feelings."

We went at it, but got stopped a couple of rounds into it by the DM as he dropped an encounter on our heads. We were forced to stop fighting and work together to take out the new threat. After that, a DMPC showed up to make sure my character had could not mess with the other PC without him getting involved. Worked out just fine.

That campaign was about, umm... 6 or 7 years ago, but its the one we remember most fondly. All of us.

[shadow_archmagi]

First, I convinced everyone that my character was actually a wealthy nobleman. Once the idea of me as rich and powerful had sunk in with everyone, I bode (bideded?) my time until there was an opportunity.

I told them all that they could sneak in as the serving staff, and they fell for it hook line and sinker. Dropped all their weapons, picked up the dishes, and bam. That's how I trayed them. Then I ate the little sandwiches on the trays.

[The Glyphstone]

There is only one time when being 'the evil character in a good group' can work out, and that's when everyone does it. I had it happen one time; telling the group I had no alignment restrictions, but preferred good PCs, I got 5 Evil and a Chaotic Neutral. The CN didn't care (and played more CG anyways), the five Evils had all independently intended to secretly be the token evil member of the good party.

[TroubleBrewing]

There is only one time when being 'the evil character in a good group' can work out, and that's when everyone does it. I had it happen one time; telling the group I had no alignment restrictions, but preferred good PCs, I got 5 Evil and a Chaotic Neutral. The CN didn't care (and played more CG anyways), the five Evils had all independently intended to secretly be the token evil member of the good party.

Gotta say, this sounds like an awesome group.

[The Glyphstone]

Gotta say, this sounds like an awesome group.

It sounds much more awesome than it was, sadly. They were cartoonishly Evil at best (for example, the Warforged Rogue who murdered the town blacksmith in his sleep after getting free repairs for killing some nearby goblins, and arguing that it was Lawful Evil instead of Chaotic Evil because it was premediated). I think there was a random PvP bout, usually triggered by some minor insult, every 2-3 sessions.

They were a big reason I actively prohibit Evil characters in groups now.

[TroubleBrewing]

It sounds much more awesome than it was, sadly. They were cartoonishly Evil at best (for example, the Warforged Rogue who murdered the town blacksmith in his sleep after getting free repairs for killing some nearby goblins, and arguing that it was Lawful Evil instead of Chaotic Evil because it was premediated). I think there was a random PvP bout, usually triggered by some minor insult, every 2-3 sessions.

See, in my head, I'd pictured that AGC arc with all the well-thought-out backstabbing, the long cons, all the good things that having an Evil party entails.

Now all I can taste is disappointment.

[Zombimode]

That's the whole point. It is a multiverse of difference between a PC betraying the party and an NPC doing it. As an aside it could depend on the NPC. If it's one just met for the adventure, nasty but ok. If it's one who's been with the party since the beginning and it's a True Betrayal as opposed Domination or some such or a set-up from the beginning, that teeters towards a DM who hates his players and just wants to screw them, which is a whole other issue.

...
I am at a complete loss how you can arrive at this conclusion. Please, elaborate.
To me, that looks like a DM who knows drama. Thats a good thing in my book. If a DM manages to set up a character the group actualy likes and cares about, get them to trust this NPC, and then have this character betray the group in a gruesome but plausible fashion, that would be GREAT. It is emotional engaging, it is conflict, and a great roleplaying oportunity. I would love it.

Again, Im repeating myself here: it as a matter of playstyle and maturity.

To make my point cristal-clear:
Betrayal, be it an NPC or a PC, can be appropriate and a great thing.
Or in other words: I disagree with the notion, that betrayal is always bad.


It is has nothing to do with maturity to be against the idea of a player betraying the party. One could argue it is more mature to choose not to. Your fun as a player does not come at the expense of the other players.

You seem to imply a necessary connection between "party betrayal" and "having fun at other players expense". Please explain how this is a necessary connection.



If you must, must play a game where you just have to, have to play a character who betrays the party because you are incapable of playing a cooperative game, play an RPG that caters to such a thing, i.e. Paranoia. Have fun and get all your betrayal jollies you'd like. If not Paranoia, even Call of Cthulu can allow for it with someone secretly being a cult member who wants Cthulu to come forth.

Thanks for the insult, pal. Way to go, man. :smallamused:

Please give reasons why this playstyle would not work with DnD. Because all you have provided so far amounts to "I dont like that playstyle". Which is a rather weak argument.

Regarding your suggestions:
In Paranoia betrayal is somewhat expected. This cheapens and devalues the whole concept. One of the core elements is the surprise, the shock. If you expect it, it loses its sting. (Thats the main problem with Call of Cthullu as a serious horror RPG; but thats another story.)

Why you think betrayal in Call of Cthullu is any different then in DnD is beyond me.

[navar100]

That you can't see the difference is part of the problem.

[Zale]

Well, if the GM mentions that the game would be dramatic with lots of twists and the possibility of betrayal, then fine. Awesome. It could be a nice game.

However, if no one knows that it's going to be like that, thinking it nothing more than your typical "Let's go save the world and slaughter goblins/undead/generic enemy" and then there's a sudden crippling betrayal..

Expect there to be a certain degree of player negativity.

[Rubik]

Definately not universaly true. It really depends on the playstyle and probably on the maturity of the players.

There is one important advive: talk to your DM first, before you even introduce the character.I played the sole Evil PC in a campaign wherein the BBEG blackmailed me into becoming her minion and mole in the party. I spent the entire campaign pitting the two teams against each other for my own benefit (grabbing tons of loot and XP in the process), though (as far as I was concerned) the BBEG was my enemy and my party was my ally. However, if I DIDN'T play the role of the BBEG's minion, she had enough power to destroy me (and the fact that I was psionic made me weak against her mental abilities).

At the end of the campaign, she had a huge army of demons that she controlled with an artifact staff, and she outed me as her minion (that otyugh-sniffing so-and-so), and commanded me to command the army and crush my former teammates while she ascended to deity-hood. Basically she left me in the lurch, and I wanted her shinies.

So I Psi DD'd to her side (into the center of a Widened AMF from an artifact staff, which, due to lack of transparency, didn't affect psionics, which I'd just confirmed). I taunted my former teammates before manifesting a Quickened Temporal Acceleration and unloading about two dozen metapsionic'd manifestings of Swarm of Crystals on her. She relied on that staff to protect her against magic, and despite being an epic caster BBEG, she had no defenses against it. And that's how I managed to utterly crush someone a dozen levels above me in a T1 class with a T2 class and a lot of chutzpah.

The party was a BIT miffed for not telling them that I was a double-reverse double-agent, but since I'd saved their collective bacon more than once, they were, overall, rather okay with it.

But then, I didn't JUST do everything I could to screw them over. I did it in STYLE.

[JaronK]

An interesting and fun way to "betray the party" is to play a character who agrees with the party's goals, and also wants to be liked. However, he's evil. He acts good around the party because he wants to impress them, and secretly advances their cause through evil means (doing things like doubling back and killing enemies the party let free, or torturing them for information... binding demons and using them to buff yourself in the interests of helping the party... being the guy who demands and gets more payment for all).

Could be fun.

JaronK

[Kenneth]

Ahahaha I like your replies.
I don't believe that I'll be hated by my friends cause they've done worse things to when we've tried to play an evil party. (Revenge harharharrrr)
Well I'm only messing with the party so I could delay them, if I wanted to kill them it would be the easy way to end the campaign nad make everyone hate me. I know that my character will probably die if they find out what I'm doing but I can't help it :P
Also our DM liked my ideas and encouraged me to keep up with this (so he could make up more sessions/side quest etc). He enjoyed the part when I made up a journal about a party who went searching for the evil guys like we are doing now. "They just fell for it? I can't believe this.". The fun part is that even off-game noone knows about my character. I mostly do this for the role-play, my mission is just to spy on them and delay them. The reason I'm screwing with the monk is to make him believe he's in fault of some "random" NPC deaths. Is there a "blackout" or modify memory spell so I could use on him or should I just propose my DM to do something like that? :D

Edit: Obviously our DM has something in mind to keep telling me "Do this. It's ok"... I don't quite know what.


my 2 cents here

there is a BIG difference between an all eveil party trying to stab each other in teh bakc and one-up each other at every opportunity and a all good party- excetp for that one evil guy who is backstabbing everybody

so your belief of your friends not doing anything when you are screwing over theri characters in what the belive is a good party set out to do good and heroci things is, im sorry to say, wrong.

[Analytica]

An interesting and fun way to "betray the party" is to play a character who agrees with the party's goals, and also wants to be liked. However, he's evil. He acts good around the party because he wants to impress them, and secretly advances their cause through evil means (doing things like doubling back and killing enemies the party let free, or torturing them for information... binding demons and using them to buff yourself in the interests of helping the party... being the guy who demands and gets more payment for all).

Could be fun.

JaronK

"I did it for you! The drugs, the killings, the children... all for you!" :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

"I did it for you! The drugs, the killings, the children... all for you!" :smallbiggrin:WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!

[BoutsofInsanity]

There is a scenario that I can think of where this has worked. Otherwise its bad. If its done this way it could work.

Malthazar is a CN sorcerer who thrives on Chaos. He loves games, especially games that involve the forces of Good and Evil. He gains no greater enjoyment then watching the two opposing forces clash and create a struggle where peoples true beliefs and colors are shown and tested. And witnessing events where the greatest figures in history are born.

Malthazar decided to take fate into his own hands and push the two forces towards conflict as to create great moments in history and time by pitting champions of good and evil against each other. By using leadership, Malthazar has created a vast spy network that allows him to tilt the scales of the two forces and always insure they are in conflict with each other, and neither side is too strong. For if the Evil were to triumph, or Good to stand victorious, then his game would be over and no more fun to be had.

He had his lead cohort join a group of pure good adventurers, and he himself joined an evil one. Slowly, influencing both groups, stocking dungeons with weapons, giving advice, and slowly pushing both groups towards conflict with each other at the height of their power. Till at last, as the Evil group begins their nefarious world ending plot, the Good group rushes through the door and engages the Evil party. At that point, Malthazar and his cohort engage in battle and flee the scene, going invisible and returning to watch the fireworks.

This is the only way to betray the party, by not hindering them, but by giving them an epic moment that fulfills your desires, I never hindered the party and created animosity among those at the table, I simply abandoned them at a key moment, but balanced the scales at the other end to leave the fight even.

[Coidzor]

There is one important advive: talk to your DM first, before you even introduce the character.

Wait. He didn't already run this by the DM or have been requested to do this specifically by the DM?

DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!

[killem2]

All the people that are telling you not to do it. They're not wrong.

No, we aren't. Page 3, Book of Challenges, 3.5.

"DM's dirty little secret."

[DrDeth]

Don't.

Just don't.

Stop.

Do not think about it.

Forget the idea.

Choose not to be a jerk.

What he said. Really, it’s a jerk move. Now, with a group of really mature and experienced players, you & the DM can explain what’s happening to the party OOC, and get the other players OK. But usually, you (not your PC- YOU) will be looked upon as a jerk. I have known tables to vote off players who did this sort of thing more than once.

[Tyndmyr]

It sounds much more awesome than it was, sadly. They were cartoonishly Evil at best (for example, the Warforged Rogue who murdered the town blacksmith in his sleep after getting free repairs for killing some nearby goblins, and arguing that it was Lawful Evil instead of Chaotic Evil because it was premediated). I think there was a random PvP bout, usually triggered by some minor insult, every 2-3 sessions.

They were a big reason I actively prohibit Evil characters in groups now.

Yeah, that's exactly the kind of evil backstabbery char you don't want. OP, if anything you consider sounds even slightly like that...it's entirely out. Randomly stabbing people does not really add depth or anything.

It's much, much better when you're not trying to actually make the party fail, just subtly alter their course of action to further your goals over the long term.

And DEFINITELY don't make a habit of it. One clever betrayal is a fascinating plot point. Doing it constantly just makes you that guy who always plays greedy evil chars who nobody trusts.


Well, if the GM mentions that the game would be dramatic with lots of twists and the possibility of betrayal, then fine. Awesome. It could be a nice game.

However, if no one knows that it's going to be like that, thinking it nothing more than your typical "Let's go save the world and slaughter goblins/undead/generic enemy" and then there's a sudden crippling betrayal..

Expect there to be a certain degree of player negativity.

Yup. Also, the NPC what goes with you and betrays you at the first available opportunity is something of a tired trope by now. So...it risks being a complete failure from the standpoint of not being a surprise as well.

[kardar233]

If you're going to do this (which is a major part of our campaigns, which generally resemble aSoIaF more than Conan), then foreshadow. Foreshadow like a bitch.

Maybe argue with the party leader about what to do with your opponents. Start some character development contrary to the main opinions of the party. When you lose arguments, either grump over it or be very stoic, depending on the character. Get more and more at odds with the main body of the party, and then suddenly jump back into the party line. Explain it as being "frustrated with always arguing with you guys." Hint that your character was doing something off-screen while no one's paying attention to you.

The proper (OOC) response to an in-party betrayal should always be "Ohhh..... you sneaky bastard." Never "What the hell?"

But most of all: KEEP ALL OF THIS INGAME. If anyone starts taking it personally, something's going wrong. Some players have trouble segregating what happens to their character from themselves; if so, that's the wrong audience.

[JonRG]

The most party-friendly betrayal would be as Tyndmyr suggested. The party wins, but thanks to your clever planning/manipulation, you win more. Alternatively, kadar nailed the reaction you're trying to evoke.

PC betrayal isn't really the same as NPC betrayal, because the other players have different expectations of the person behind each character. The NPCs are controlled by the DM, whose mission statement is to challenge me and otherwise tell a good story. If a NPC turns evil, it's almost to be expected. The player next to me, on the other hand, purports to be watching my back and helping the party achieve its goals. To find that he's been doing exactly the opposite of that... well, he'd better hope the ensuing smackdown is sufficiently cathartic.

I have to wonder if your party has been given a fair chance at catching you too (passive checks where appropriate and saves versus spells). If not, your character's success banks heavily on the players' OOC trust.

[PotatoNinja]

Loving the knee jerk reactions in this thread.

Some groups like this kind of stuff, I've been in them before. One evil in a party of good, an entire party of evil, yes there is a marked difference, but some groups enjoy the ride without sweating the small stuff.

Alot of people here have already posted their opinions and it seems to be "all players all the time hate this kind of stuff, no matter what end of discussion!". While the voice of experience speaking from the vantage point of ruined parties is always welcome, this dogmatic approach to evil characters in parties is a little disheartening.

Kudos to the ones helping him be evil.

[Metahuman1]

The only way for the whole party to enjoy evil characters is often for everyone as a play to agree to no PvP at character creation NO MATTER WHAT!

So, yeah, I'd advise against doing this as I'm sure someone will be unhappy with you as a player if you end up being even partially responsible for the death of a character they invest much of anything in.


And they have every right to kill you the instant one of them happens to see Evil on your character sheet alignment section when they get up to use the rest room/get a drink/ext.

[PotatoNinja]

And they have every right to kill you the instant one of them happens to see Evil on your character sheet alignment section when they get up to use the rest room/get a drink/ext.

To address you in general, i think it doesn't even need to be stated that everybody needs to be cool with that stuff if they're doing it, which the OP has addressed.

Now, to address this specific quote, Metagame much? If this happened in my game (assuming everybody was cool with the whole concept that evil happens), i would just dock the character who did that a level, set to lowest EXP, minimum, as a punishment. If this person pulled shennanegins like this often, i would either kill their character off for them, an or ask them to leave our group.

With my current group, the later punishment is acceptable, because it has been explicitly stated several times before with no objections. Harsh? Yes, but the group doesn't mind evil.

I have run several more groups for people where killing players off for metagaming would have caused even more butthurt, and i have avoided doing so, and am capable of doing so in the future. It's all about party composition man.


And to note, severe cases of metagaming always result in EXP loss in my games. TO be fair, i give several verbal warnings before i even attempt such a thing.(woah man, you're not there, you can't be feeding him ideas, Hey, woah, how do you know that? your character wasn't told that, don't be metagaming)

[killem2]

Loving the knee jerk reactions in this thread.


I don't think its a knee jerk reaction. As a DM, your job, first and foremost and this is what I have consistently read (as a new DM trying to learn things) your players come first. More specifically their enjoyment of the game.

If you have one or even more than one party member working against the group, you now have to make the game enjoyable for someone who wants to for all intents and purposes: Kill the opposites game experience.

If you have an evil set of PCs with a set of non-evil set of PCs you have you come up with adventures and what not for each of those as it would be pretty damn far fetched that they would work together. Maybe they would for a greater good, neutral evil/lawful evil sorta result but allowing this sort of behavior breeds bad social interactions.

Why do you think most video games now a days, don't even have the option for "friendly fire". This is a variant of friendly fire. In game it isn't friendly, outside the game I would hope you are all friends.

[navar100]

Playing an Evil character in a Good party is not the same thing as betrayal nor even a requirement. In fact, despite being Evil you can actually want the party to defeat every BBEG and whole heartedly help them do it. You can do it for personal glory. You can do it because you'll get wealthy. You can do it because the people will see you as hero and idolize you. You get free drinks at the tavern.

You can be Evil all you want against the bad guys. Cast those evil spells. Use poison. Torture prisoners. Go on a personal pilfering spree during downtime. Just don't be Evil against the party. Don't "accidentally" have a party member be in the area effect of your spells. Don't steal from them. Don't spy on them to report to others. Don't attack them when they're vulnerable. Don't switch sides or even never have been on their side in the first place. Be a regular party member as you would for any non-Evil character you would be.

I have played with such fellow party members. Once in college during my 2E years, and in my current group the past couple of campaigns. We got along just fine. I could trust the latter character a bit more than the former, but in both cases there was never cause to really mistrust, in and out of character. They had their agendas, but it never conflicted with the party as a whole or any individual character. They were fun to play with.

Just in case that fellow college player is reading this, if you played Baroness Sylph, Judge Reinhold says hello!

[PotatoNinja]

We seem to be in agreement then on most points Killam & Navar. Glad to see that :smallcool:.

Again, i reiterate, some people like to sense of betrayal and backstabbing in campaigns, others do not. I have had a group of players capable of playing goods and evils thoroughly enjoy a players betrayal. Is this very very rare? Yes, it takes a group whose played together for a long time to understand each other and how the characters interact, but it's not so farfetched that it's outside the realm of possible, i've seen it happen. These people are not weird, or dumb, they simply appreciate good plans, and maybe a little trolling :smallamused: (I'm guilty of this as a player, if a party member manages to get the drop on the entire party in a campaign where we're all cool with it, kudos to them man, especially if they pull it off in a severely dastardly and envious way)

For most people, i completely agree, don't go ******* around in peoples parties just to troll if they're not the kind of people to be ok with it, **** move. But it seems like the OP's group are ok with such behavior.

[The Glyphstone]

We seem to be in agreement then on most points Killam & Navar. Glad to see that :smallcool:.

Again, i reiterate, some people like to sense of betrayal and backstabbing in campaigns, others do not. I have had a group of players capable of playing goods and evils thoroughly enjoy a players betrayal. Is this very very rare? Yes, it takes a group whose played together for a long time to understand each other and how the characters interact, but it's not so farfetched that it's outside the realm of possible, i've seen it happen. These people are not weird, or dumb, they simply appreciate good plans, and maybe a little trolling :smallamused: (I'm guilty of this as a player, if a party member manages to get the drop on the entire party in a campaign where we're all cool with it, kudos to them man, especially if they pull it off in a severely dastardly and envious way)

For most people, i completely agree, don't go ******* around in peoples parties just to troll if they're not the kind of people to be ok with it, **** move. But it seems like the OP's group are ok with such behavior.

What gives you that impression? The OP is certainly okay with it, but the only evidence we have is that there was a previous All-Evil game, in which Evil characters are...kind of required. Being cool with that is a mile and a minute away from being the backstabbing Evil character in a Good party, which is the situation at hand.

[SalverioN]

Well I'm back and we have finished the campaign with this outcome:

My character left the party before he could get exposed and joined an evil one (PC party who were playing at the same time as us). I joined the evil party with an allias and an item I had helped my in concealing my identity. While I was with them, the good party was after me (not the character they knew but the alter ego I had created with the bad guys). Knowing about their abilities I decided to weight the situation so I can choose the right side when the time would come. Before the big end-game battle among these two parties happened, the evil party decided to kill me because I had served my purpose and I was unnecessary for their plans. I barely escaped trying to find out a way to get revenge, so I lured both parties in a place where I had laid an ambush for the evil party. Before the parties meet I used hit-and-run attacks against the evil party and lead them to the good guys, moderately injured.
Eventually the big-end-battle between the two parties happened with me as an observer, having the good party winning the battle without knowing what happened to me afterwards. A couple of days after the end of this campaign, me and the DM told everything to the good PCs and they were actually amased with the outcome. It went better than I actually expected but now they won't let me play evil PC for a while...

[Zirconia]

One time I saw party betrayal done and work was in a 1-shot campaign (though multi session), where everyone was put together from their various races/countries to accomplish a mission, but was warned there was a traitor in the group. It was a SF, not fantasy campaign, so no mind probing type stuff to figure out who it was. It was an interesting game, and everyone dealt fine with it, but as I mentioned everyone knew going in that betrayal was going to be an element of it, so we could be properly paranoid.

It might be an interesting twist in your campaign if everyone got hit with some kind of "curse" so their minds couldn't be read, and some helpful NPC told the group that there was a traitor among them. That way everyone would be on even footing trying to figure out who it was, it would be part detective story along with everything else. You would need the first factor since it would be sort of suspicious if you were the only person who couldn't be checked.

[Dark_Phoenix]

I would suggest not doing so. Generally people don't like when somebody's character concept is "to mess with the party".

Up until now my character has been chaotic good and really beneficial to the team, but here's the thing. The party I've been playing in the past few months have been completely horrible to my character and taking every possible chance to insult him, ignore his ideas( even if it means ignoring strategies for an interaction and just rushing in and them requiring my help when they almost die), destroy/steal his property, and just anything they can do to make his life harder. So recently, after I helped half of the party escape from a heavily guarded prison, two of them went straight to my shack on the edge of town and burned it down, while I was fleeing from the guards with another member of the party. Fast forward, the whole party is now wanted in the town and most of them are hiding out in the ashes of my character's house. My character is a warlock with the Mask of Many Faces Eldritch Invocation and the Actor Feat, so next session I plan to have my character combine those two abilities to get the guards to go and arrest them. I haven't figured out if I want to have my character go free them from the prison, if I do, I am definitely taking a magical ring that one of the party members recently came to possess.

[Bohandas]

Switch to Paranoia

[Ellrin]

I'd just like to offer some perspective from both sides of the "mess with the party" fence. I've been in a campaign where my initial CN (and highly selfish) character had little story reason to stay with the party after a certain point, and attempted to steal everything of immediate value from the party before stealing away in the night. He was extremely successful in this venture, to the point where I had to OOC decide that he wasn't going to steal their armor, weapons, or magical items because I didn't want to completely cripple the party. The DM decided since I had rolled so well that he would let me steal all their money and non-gear valuables, and manage to replace them with sufficiently convincing valueless forgeries that they didn't even realize they didn't have any money left until they got to a large town and started trying to pay for goods and services. The group found the situation more amusing than anything.

On the other side of the fence, I was in a campaign (same campaign, actually) where one of the party members was chaotic evil, and while away from the rest of the party disturbed the seal on some dead elder god (we never got to finish the campaign and learn this god's identity) whose will overwhelmed him. Afterwards, this party member acted in secret to lead the party on a series of adventures that resulted in the elder god being reborn in his own body (at which point the PC effectively died and became an NPC). Neither I nor the rest of the group really had any objection to these developments, though our party (my knight, in particular) were fairly distraught at the turn of events.

I think betrayal and messing with the party can make a good story, or at least good fun, with the right group of people, though it helps if you don't screw too much with the rest of the group's directly useful character resources, at least not in a permanent fashion. Destroying or otherwise permanently removing access to magic items is probably asking for trouble.

EDIT:
I've been beguiled by necromancers.