Idiot Crusader Sword and Board Build

[Seerow]

Okay, so when trying to figure out a way to make a Sword and Board warrior work, I thought that an Idiot Crusader might be a good way to do it, as it gives you basically constant access to the Shield Counters, and lets you mitigate your pretty much non-existent damage.

There are a couple of things assumed that are non-RAW:
-Agile Shield Fighter counts as TWFing for Bloodclaw Master.
-You can continue switching maneuvers known on even initiator levels (4, 6, 8, etc) when multiclassing.
-If you are using a prestige class that progresses initiator levels, you must use that prestige class to choose maneuvers you swap to.


Link the Frost Elf (Frostburn) Warblade5/Crusader1/Bloodclaw Master 1/Crusader+1/Bloodclaw Master+3/Eternal Blade 9

Stats
Start array: 28 point buy 16(10)/16(10)/8(0)+2/14 (6)/10(2)/8(0)-2

With a 32 point buy you can bump the dex up to a 12 base, and can get two weapon fighting instead. Also save a bit of gold by buying a +2 dex item instead of +6.

Stats at 20: 32/26/16/20/10/6


HP: 8d12+11d10+172 (Average 285 HP)
AC: 10+3(dex)+13(Armor)+8(Shield)+5(natural)+5(deflect ion) = 44
Touch: 26
Flat Footed: 41

Attack Bonus: +19(BAB)+ 11(Strength)+5(Enhancement)+1(Focus)= +36

Feats:

1) Shield Specialization
3) Improved Shield Bash
5) Improved Initiative (Warblade Bonus Feat)
6) Agile Shield Fighter
9) Weapon Focus (Longsword)
12) Extra Granted Maneuver
15) Shield Ward
18) Whatever


With flaws, can jump the shield feats up earlier, in the middle pick up an extra stance (We get no stances above first level until a level 8 stance at level 16), probably thicket of blades. Other good choice for an extra feat at mid-high level is Martial Study for one of the Shadow Hand Teleport maneuvers to be known for the Crusader (towards the end the Crusader starts actually taking maneuvers known to keep up with maneuvers granted, so this can push an extra high level maneuver over to Warblade for an at will teleport). I suggest this simply because I love the teleport maneuvers. There probably are better defensively oriented options out there.

Skills: Any, have 6 per level to play with. Max out Concentration and Jump, others are all pretty much optional.


Class Features:

Warblade 1) Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude
Warblade 2) Uncanny Dodge
Warblade 3) Battle Ardor
Crusader 1) Furious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve 5
Bloodclaw Master 1) Shifting 1/day
Bloodclaw Master 2) Superior TWFing, Tiger Claw Synergy (stance)
Bloodclaw Master 3) Shifting 2/day, Pouncing Strike
Bloodclaw Master 4) Tiger Claw Synergy (Strike)
Eternal Blade 1) Blade Guide, Eternal Training 1/day
Eternal Blade 2) Guided Strike
Eternal Blade 3) Armored Improved Uncanny Dodge, Eternal Training 2/day
Eternal Blade 4) Eternal Knowledge
Eternal Blade 5) Eternal Training 3/day
Eternal Blade 6) Defensive Insight
Eternal Blade 7) Eternal Training 4/day
Eternal Blade 8) Tactical Insight
Eternal Blade 9) Eternal Training 5/day



Maneuvers and Stances
Warblade Maneuvers:
11 total known, 4 readied
-Level 9: War Master's Charge
-Level 8: Adamantine Hurricane
-Level 8: Lightning Throw
-Level 7: Clarion Call
Any: (To meet prereqs for higher level manevuers)
1 Devoted Spirit
1 White raven
1 Iron Heart
2 Tiger Claw
2 Diamond Mind


Crusader Maneuvers:
8 total known, 8 readied
Level 9: Strike of Righteous Vitality
Level 8: White Raven Hammer
Level 8: Diamond Defense
Level 7: Shield Counter
Level 6: Greater Insightful Strike
Level 5: Iron Heart Focus
Level 4: Sudden Leap
Level 2: Shield Block


Stances:
Level 1: Iron Guard's Glare
Level 1: Stance of Clarity
Level 1: Leading the Charge
Level 3: Thicket of Blades
Level 8:Stance of Alacrity

Relevant Gear:

Mithral Full Plate (4500 GP)
Longsword
+1 Heavy Shield with Bashing Quality (4000 GP)
+1 Shield Spike with Aptitude Quality (8,000 GP)
3 Pearls of Power level 3 (27,000 GP) [for 2 magic vestment and 1 GMW]
+5 Ring of Protection (50,000 GP)
+5 Amulet of Natural Armor (50,000 GP)
+5 Save Item (25,000 GP)
+6 Con item (36,000 GP)
+6 Str Item (36,000 GP)
+6 Int item (36,000 GP)
+6 Dex item (36,000 GP)
+5 inherent str (137,500 GP)
+4 inherent con (110,000 GP)

Leaves 200,000 extra for other gear and weapon/armor properties.



Comments

From here there's probably a lot of things that can be tweaked to make it more optimal. I basically just went straight for +X gear, and that wound up costing more than I thought it would (the joys of being MAD), and I'm sure there's a dozen things for optimizing that attack bonus and AC to make it more optimal. Some defending armor spikes with an extra pearl of power for example.

The big thing is the maneuvers, with stance of Alacrity you have 2 Counters every round, and on your Crusader Side, you have a nice variety of counters usable every round to take advantage of that. Also on top of the maneuvers listed, there is the floating Diamond Mind/Devoted Spirit maneuver that can be gained for a full encounter 5/day (which can alternately be used for a +5 to hit and damage against a given creature type)

As far as strikes go, go-to strikes are White Raven Hammer and Greater Insightful Strike (Greater Insightful Strike is currently set for 62-102 points of damage on a hit, from just ranks + con. I'm sure as another point of optimization this could be brought up pretty easily), with Strike of Righteous Vitality if things get too painful, because there are few things that healing 150 damage every round won't keep you alive through. (And the things it doesn't work on you probably shouldn't be fighting). He can also burn his tiger claw maneuver (crap just realized that I got a boot instead of the strike required for BCM's pouncing strike, that needs to be changed. He can have any Tiger Claw Strike up to level 5 if someone has a suggestion there) to make a Sword Attack + Shield Bash as a standard action.

On the warblade end, it's mostly stuff that's more situational, then a whole bunch of low level maneuvers that aren't readied or even bothered to be picked to fill in maneuver prereqs.

Bloodclaw master probably looks a little out of place, but I needed something to grant an extra readied maneuver for the Crusader, and most of the two weapon fighting benefits can be used with the shield so aren't too bad. Without BCM you hit Idiot Crusader Status 2 levels later, and never get a 9th level Maneuver for Crusader (Since otherwise the build is stuck as Warblade8/Crusader2/EB10, giving you an end IL of 16 instead of 17), giving up 1 point of BAB and even the awesome EB capstone I think is worth it for two spammable 9th level maneuvers


Anyway, any comments or tweaks to make this better or more efficient? I know the gear is pretty horrid and could probably have its costs trimmed down to make more room for more fun gear, and there's probably obvious stuff I'm forgetting for bumping up AC/Attack Bonus to more respectable levels (+36/44 seems kind of low)

[Malachei]

I'd suggest delaying Crusader 2 by one level, so your initiator level will allow you to pick up Thicket of Blades as your second Crusader stance. Even if you don't have a reach weapon, sometimes you might be enlarged or enemies might 5-ft-step near you. Saves you a feat, probably.

[Seerow]

I'd suggest delaying Crusader 2 by one level, so your initiator level will allow you to pick up Thicket of Blades as your second Crusader stance. Even if you don't have a reach weapon, sometimes you might be enlarged or enemies might 5-ft-step near you. Saves you a feat, probably.

That's a good point. I didn't consider splitting up the Crusader levels, the BCM is enterable at 6, so Warblade5/Crusader1/BCM1/Crusader+1/BCM+3 works.


Given I don't think any of my actually bothered to list maneuvers from BCM matter, I can edit this in without having to shuffle other maneuvers, so I'll go ahead and do that.

[Keld Denar]

Doesn't work. The first Crusader level has to be at ECL 3 or 4. By ECL 6, your IL is 3.5 when you take that first Crusader level. This opens up 6 more maneuvers that you can learn. The whole Idiot Crusader gimmick relies on not having enough potential maneuvers known, which in turn restricts the number of maneuvers readied down to the same number of maneuvers as your maneuvers granted. If you don't start it right, you'll never catch up.

[Seerow]

Doesn't work. The first Crusader level has to be at ECL 3 or 4. By ECL 6, your IL is 3.5 when you take that first Crusader level. This opens up 6 more maneuvers that you can learn. The whole Idiot Crusader gimmick relies on not having enough potential maneuvers known, which in turn restricts the number of maneuvers readied down to the same number of maneuvers as your maneuvers granted. If you don't start it right, you'll never catch up.

It opens up more maneuvers you can learn, but you still have the same number of maneuvers known. I'm not understanding why it doesn't work starting crusader at a higher level, as long as you don't progress Crusader further than 2nd level (because at Crusader 3 you get an extra known)

[Keld Denar]

It's not just about maneuvers known. It's about the number of maneuvers possible to learn.

Normally, a Crusader learns 5 maneuvers. There are 6 to choose from. He readied the 5 that he learns, and is granted 2 of them. It takes him 4 rounds till he is out of readied maneuvers that can be granted and he refreshed.

The idiot crusader does it differently. You take at least 2 Warblade levels to learn both of the Stone Dragon and White Raven maneuvers. Then, when you take your first Crusader level, you only have 2 possible maneuvers left to learn...the 2 Devoted Spirit maneuvers. Now, you go to ready your 5 maneuvers, but you only know 2. So you ready only 2. Now you are granted 2, and at the start of each turn, you have no maneuvers withheld and refresh.

If you wait till past level 3 to take the Crusader level, your IL is high enough that you have the possibility of learning 2nd level maneuvers. That opens up 6 new maneuvers possible to learn. If you can learn them, you have to learn them, and you are no longer sitting there with only 2 maneuvers known, readied, and granted, and you aren't an Idiot Crusader.

[Seerow]

It's not just about maneuvers known. It's about the number of maneuvers possible to learn.

Normally, a Crusader learns 5 maneuvers. There are 6 to choose from. He readied the 5 that he learns, and is granted 2 of them. It takes him 4 rounds till he is out of readied maneuvers that can be granted and he refreshed.

The idiot crusader does it differently. You take at least 2 Warblade levels to learn both of the Stone Dragon and White Raven maneuvers. Then, when you take your first Crusader level, you only have 2 possible maneuvers left to learn...the 2 Devoted Spirit maneuvers. Now, you go to ready your 5 maneuvers, but you only know 2. So you ready only 2. Now you are granted 2, and at the start of each turn, you have no maneuvers withheld and refresh.

If you wait till past level 3 to take the Crusader level, your IL is high enough that you have the possibility of learning 2nd level maneuvers. That opens up 6 new maneuvers possible to learn. If you can learn them, you have to learn them, and you are no longer sitting there with only 2 maneuvers known, readied, and granted, and you aren't an Idiot Crusader.

Okay, so that's how you get Idiot Crusader at lower level.

This build still accomplishes the same thing, it just doesn't until higher level.

As Crusader 2 you have 5 known, 2 readied. As BCM3 you get +1 readied. 12 you get +1 readied. At EB 3, 6, and 9 you get +1 readied.

So at level 6 you have 5 known, 2 readied. At 10 you have 5 known, 3 readied. At 12 you have 5 known, 4 readied. At 14 you have 5 known, 5 readied, at which point you are using the Idiot Crusader trick. At 17 you get 6 readied (and can pick up an extra known at 18), at 20 you get 1 more known + readied.

Maybe Idiot Crusader isn't the right term since you do have more maneuvers available than the build you described, but it does use the same basic trick of using prestige classes to limit maneuvers known to the Crusader, while increasing maneuvers readied, to get auto refreshing maneuvers.

[Keld Denar]

Eh, you're delaying the trick significantly for no gain. Sure, the way you do it works, but you'll be stuck with 1st and 2nd level maneuvers most of your whole career until you finally catch up with granted maneuvers. I'd put the Crusader level at 3 or 4, make sure you pick up the right White Raven and Stone Dragon maneuvers at Warblade1 and 2, and then you can put some of your maneuvers known on your Crusader side while leveling up to actually take advantage of them. Having Dancing Mongoose available every round at about level 10 would be killer...like permanent Haste that stacks with Haste. Etc.

EDIT: Missed the whole "maneuver swapping on even levels" part. That would let you swap in higher level maneuvers for those initial 5 Crusader maneuvers till you are loaded up with good stuff. Still, my plan is active right at level 3 or 4, and spamming Crusader Strike every round at that level is pretty sexy.

[Seerow]

So would Warblade2/Crusader1/Warblade+3/Bloodclaw Master1/Crusader+1 work, so you get the Idiot Crusader thing going earlier, and also still get to pick up Thicket of Blades?


Also, Wouldn't warblade picking up mostly Stone Dragon/White Raven maneuvers prevent it from getting the 3 necessary Tiger Claw strikes to qualify for BCM? Because I did definitely need at least 4 levels of an initiating prestige class to keep IL up to get 9th level maneuvers by the end, and as an Elf with no casting... BCM was pretty much the only choice.

[Analytica]

Idiot Crusader?

http://www.inverse.org/e/bkg/chars/gourry-trans.gif

[Wings of Peace]

Why no Divine Surge or Greater Divine Surge? Iron Heart Surge would let you heal the constitution damage so it's not a terrible option. Use with a Belt of Battle and you've got at least one no-risk "Falcon Punch!" stored up.

[Draz74]

Iron Heart Surge would let you heal the constitution damage

false. Blah blah blah