PDA

View Full Version : Low/No magic game



Funky Goose
2011-11-22, 04:29 PM
Hiyas everyone!

I'm thinking of DMing a low/no magic fantasy game and am looking for advice as to what kind of system would be good for it, and how to balance it for the low amount of magic if I do have to adapt it for the game.

Also, any ideas of how to make interesting "magic" items for the players to find and have fun with without breaking the setting? Both along the lines of "a gadget that does X" and more diverse ideas.

Thanks!

TroubleBrewing
2011-11-22, 04:33 PM
What genre is this game? Modern? Fantasy? I'm assuming fantasy, so my usual go-to games for low-magic are Riddle of Steel, 7th Sea (with some modification), Iron Kingdoms, or Conan the Barbarian.

Funky Goose
2011-11-22, 04:36 PM
What genre is this game? Modern? Fantasy? I'm assuming fantasy, so my usual go-to games for low-magic are Riddle of Steel, 7th Sea (with some modification), Iron Kingdoms, or Conan the Barbarian.

Eeep... :smalleek:

Yes, it IS a fantasy game, for the setting, think 'like the discworld'

LibraryOgre
2011-11-22, 04:58 PM
Well, I'll flog d6 Fantasy. You might also look at Hackmaster Basic, which is pretty low magic, though I don't think it would mix well with Discworld.

nedz
2011-11-23, 04:46 PM
I had some good experiences with the Warhammer RPG a few years ago, I've not looked at the new version though. Very gritty and detailed.

Shoot Da Moon
2011-11-25, 07:42 AM
I suppose GURPS would be too obvious a choice?

Ravens_cry
2011-11-25, 08:56 AM
Eeep... :smalleek:

Yes, it IS a fantasy game, for the setting, think 'like the discworld'
Discworld is hardly low magic, especially in Ankh-Morpork, where you have 'cameras' that operate on an imp (more daemon than demon) painting the scene Very Quickly and the equivalent of PDA operating on a similar princible. Not to mention Hex and Omniscopes and Golems.

Eldan
2011-11-25, 10:50 AM
Depends a bit on which books he means. There are some were barely any magic shows up.

But yeah, the discworld isn't really low magic, amongst fantasy novels. Thinking about books I've read, it's rather int he hire tier, what with blasting spells, teleportation, magic brooms, omniscopes, summoning, shapeshifting and Eringya's Surprising Bouquet (my favourite spell, back when I played Discworld Mud).

I'd think slightly homebrewed and reflavoured D&D should handle the disc just fine.

Funky Goose
2011-11-25, 07:54 PM
When I say discworld low magic, Im talking about the fact that magic is only really useable by those who spend their whole lives training (read - Not the PC's)
I guess some minor magicish items would work well though

Vella_Malachite
2011-11-26, 01:41 AM
I had some good experiences with the Warhammer RPG a few years ago, I've not looked at the new version though. Very gritty and detailed.

I'm currently playing a low-magic campaign in Warhammer Fantasy RP, 2nd edition, and it's very good for that; all I've done is disallow character classes with magic and removed the magic from the world. It does mean I've had to do things like homebrew the monsters, so the PCs aren't wildly underpowered due to lack of magic items and plain old magic, but that's OK; I was planning on doing that anyway.

Kiero
2011-11-30, 06:02 AM
What are sorts of roles will the PCs be filling? That could influence the system options.

FATE springs to mind, either Legends of Anglerre or Dresden Files, depending on which magic system appeals more as GM handling NPC magic. That focuses more on the characters and what they're about than magic and their stuff.

nWoD could do it too, core plus Armoury/Armoury: Reloaded, perhaps?

Savage Worlds is another option.

Barbarians of Lemuria could work too.

Blacky the Blackball
2011-11-30, 06:07 AM
D&D 4e works surprisingly well.

You can do an "All Martial" campaign (Fighters, Rogues, Rangers, Warlords) without any problem at all, and if you use the "Inherent Bonuses" option then you don't rely on magic items either.

MagnusExultatio
2011-11-30, 06:09 AM
I suggest Fantasy Craft.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-30, 10:54 AM
When I say discworld low magic, Im talking about the fact that magic is only really useable by those who spend their whole lives training (read - Not the PC's)
I guess some minor magicish items would work well though

Er, that doesn't even fit. There's a lot of magic or supernatural things done by people who don't fit that model.

And even if that was the case...why couldn't a PC be such a person?

I think, before making recommendations, I need to know more about what exactly it is you are trying to accomplish with this campaign.

The Reverend
2011-11-30, 11:36 AM
Discworld-- its so high magick that the elder beings that created the universe had to put wards around it in 8 dimensions to get them to tone it down a bit so wizards weren't flooding continents freezing oceans and generally treating the world like prop scenery.

So high magick that belief will cause anthropomorphic personifications to become.

So high magick that wizards hesitate to use dnd style magick for fear of tearing thru the paper thin walls of reality into the dungeon dimension.

So high magick an upsidedown mountain full of dragons maintained solely by their riders imagination exists.

So high magick that it rains beds

So high magick that the head librarian of the chief magical university is an orangutan, the cellars house a sapiant ant civilization, and the ankhmorpork city fire brigade is composed of self owning Golemns


That discworld? I think you must be talking about some other discworld.

Definitely need to focus your goals on what exactly you mean by low magick world. How available is it? Hoe powerful is it when its around? Can only certain people weild it? Etc

Jayabalard
2011-11-30, 12:00 PM
Discworld is hardly low magic, especially in Ankh-Morpork, where you have 'cameras' that operate on an imp (more daemon than demon) painting the scene Very Quickly and the equivalent of PDA operating on a similar princible. Not to mention Hex and Omniscopes and Golems.No, it's definitely a kind of low magic. When you have top tier wizard's that need a bit of a lie down after a minor fireball, that can definitely qualify as on the low end of the magic spectrum.

Rorrik
2011-11-30, 12:24 PM
Rich Burlew's gaming page article, "The New World" on this site is what I think of when I hear low magic. He was looking at d20 modern with modifications. You may want to read through that. I think part 4 addresses d20 modern, but the earlier ones explain his goals for the low magic game.

As far as "magical" items:

Time Machine Gauge-Wherever the rest of the machine got to, what's left is the gauge, a small pocket watch. The time can be set allowing the user to see the world as if at that time of day.
Breakfast Bowl-Well trained, subservient insects venture forth during the night to seek food which they prepare for breakfast before daylight. Warning, may raid party food stocks.

The Reverend
2011-11-30, 12:28 PM
After a fashion yeah its kinda low magic.

But in the same settings druid convince 40 ton stones to fly thru the sky to build megaliths with. One the plus side I love his take on magic armor. Prone to suddenly not work. " Haha you can't hurt me I have magick arrrrrggghhh!"

Knaight
2011-11-30, 12:34 PM
No, it's definitely a kind of low magic. When you have top tier wizard's that need a bit of a lie down after a minor fireball, that can definitely qualify as on the low end of the magic spectrum.

At the same time, we've seen some data that suggests that wizards aren't that great at magic use. Witches seem to be better, and then there are sourcerers, which occupy a little spot of their own where nobody else even approaches what they can do.

Leon
2011-11-30, 12:37 PM
Discworld-- its so high magick

That it can be easily Low magic with little problem.

Jayabalard
2011-11-30, 01:55 PM
At the same time, we've seen some data that suggests that wizards aren't that great at magic use.That's kind of the point. If the world itself is suffused in magic, but none of the PCs actually can use magic, or have any specifically magical items, then it's a low magic game in an otherwise high magic universe.

A lot of the things that were cited as magic aren't really magic... looked at in the right light, they're really examples of technology that just happens to use the ever present background magic of the disc as one of it's components.

The iconographs, for example, are a technological solution to the problem. The imp painting a picture isn't using magic, it's using regular paper and paint.



Witches seem to be better,Being a witch has nothing to do with using magic.


and then there are sourcerers, which occupy a little spot of their own where nobody else even approaches what they can do.These wouldn't be PCs, since there have only been a handful of them ever and they never stay in the universe all that long.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-30, 02:57 PM
The imps are themselves intelligent, within certain bounds, magical constructs, which tend to 'evaporate' after a while.
In 'Making Money' it is also mentioned they can be "printed" onto bills.

Aidan305
2011-11-30, 05:54 PM
No, it's definitely a kind of low magic. When you have top tier wizard's that need a bit of a lie down after a minor fireball, that can definitely qualify as on the low end of the magic spectrum.

I think that's more a case of wizards being elderly gentlemen who spend far too much time at the dining table and not enough time out in the sun getting exercise. Remember that we've seen some pretty serious magical duels out there, and several extremely powerful spells.

Sidmen
2011-12-01, 12:11 AM
Ignoring the Whole " Is discworld low-or-high magic" debate.

I like to plug the Dragon-Age RPG. Its short rules and stunt mechanic makes mundane fights seem more interesting than "I attack... I hit.... take 30 dmg". They put out a quick start a while back.

http://greenronin.com/support/files/21

That way you can read up on its basics before deciding. I, personally, love it - it does include mages and magic, but all you have to do is say "nobody take the mage" and your done. Its magic items are also pretty low-key and nifty.

Tyndmyr
2011-12-01, 10:02 AM
That's kind of the point. If the world itself is suffused in magic, but none of the PCs actually can use magic, or have any specifically magical items, then it's a low magic game in an otherwise high magic universe.

Nah. High magic universe/low magic game does not make sense. My choice to play a fighter with VoP does not make the game low magic. It just makes my char pretty low on magic options.

And there's a LOT of things in discworld that are magical, and can be used by essentially anyone.

We have KIDS summoning demons for kicks.


A lot of the things that were cited as magic aren't really magic... looked at in the right light, they're really examples of technology that just happens to use the ever present background magic of the disc as one of it's components.

The iconographs, for example, are a technological solution to the problem. The imp painting a picture isn't using magic, it's using regular paper and paint.

Tech that uses magic? That sounds suspiciously like a magic item to me.


Being a witch has nothing to do with using magic.

That's not at all true. Yes, it has to do with a LOT more that using magic, but the fact is, they DO use magic.

Jayabalard
2011-12-01, 10:30 AM
Nah. High magic universe/low magic game does not make sense. To you. It makes perfect sense to me. There's a lot of different ways to pull off low magic.

Since the OP is looking for low magic like the discworld, he's obviously thinking in these sort of terms, and arguing against his choice of terminology is kind of silly.


Tech that uses magic? That sounds suspiciously like a magic item to me. Not at all. Magic is a natural force in the world, just like light is. Technology that takes advantage of things that are magical doesn't mean that the derived item is itself magical in any way.

An iconograph is a perfectly mundane piece of technology that happens to have a imp living in it. It operates with lenses paint and paper. It's no more of a magical item than the laserjet printer I have in my office, or the camera that's part of my phone.

Likewise, a Clacks tower powered by a golem on a treadmill or with a Gargoyle on watch isn't magical either.


That's not at all true. Yes, it has to do with a LOT more that using magic, but the fact is, they DO use magic.No, it's totally true. Some of them use magic, but the use of magic really has nothing to do with being a witch.

On the whole, being a witch has a lot more to do with not using magic than using magic.

Tyndmyr
2011-12-01, 10:41 AM
To you. It makes perfect sense to me.

Googling "definition low magic game" gets us(in addition to links back here), the wikipedia entry for "low fantasy".

This entry gives us Discworld as the very first entry for HIGH fantasy, and uses it as an example of what low fantasy is not.

Now, if you flip over to the entry on Discworld (world), the first line under magic is "Magic is the principal force on the Discworld". This does not sound at all like "low-magic".


Not at all. Magic is a natural force in the world. Technology that takes advantage of things that are magical doesn't mean that the derived item is itself magical in any way.

No. Magical being natural doesn't change anything. Magic is magic is magic.

Things that use magic are magic items. That's what the words mean. This is how English works.


An iconograph is a perfectly mundane piece of technology that happens to have a imp living in it. It's no more magical than the laserjet printer I have in my office.

The functional part(the imp) is pretty soundly magical. Other components are not. That's still a magical item.


No, it's totally true. Some of them use magic, but the use of magic really has nothing to do with being a witch.

On the whole, being a witch has a lot more to do with not using magic than using magic.

Highlighted the contradiction. I am aware of the theme of not using magic to solve certain problems, and it's a good one.

However, it does not at all justify a LACK of magic in the setting.

Leon
2011-12-01, 11:53 AM
On the whole, being a witch has a lot more to do with not using magic than using magic.

And letting the common folk believe that its magic that's helping them and not common sense solutions.




Things that use magic are magic items. That's what the words mean. This is how English works.

The functional part(the imp) is pretty soundly magical. Other components are not. That's still a magical item.



Yet it doesn't use it, the imp lives inside and paints what it sees as that is its job - its not a magic item in the sense of what is often considered a magic item. Its a Mundane item with a magical creature doing a job inside (same thing with a Dis-organizer)

You get Flash by surprising a creature that excretes sunlight - hardly a magic item.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-01, 12:26 PM
From a game perspective, certainly it is a magic item. And if these creatures are intentionally caught for this purpose and possibly even bred to be more surprisable and to glow brighter, it is even a technology from a an in world perspective.
And the imp, as mentioned before, is a magical construct, made for the purpose. It's Magitek, combining magic (a magically created artisitic savant) and mundane, paints and paper, in a convenient package, a hand-held device.
These are unusual magic items, yes, but they still use magic and would useless without it.

Jayabalard
2011-12-01, 01:15 PM
From a game perspective, certainly it is a magic item.It's a mundane item with a magical creature doing purely mundane things. The item itself is no more magical than a wheelbarrow.


Googling "definition low magic game" gets us(in addition to links back here), the wikipedia entry for "low fantasy".Low magic != low fantasy; nor is high magic = high fantasy.

High fantasy means that it's set in parallel, alternate, purely made up world, or a distinct world-within-a-world (like Harry Potter); high fantasy has a clear delineation between good and evil; it has a lot of fantastical elements. Example: Middle earth.

Low fantasy means that it's set in the "real" world, or a rational fictional world; it generally has a grittier, more shades of grey moral problems; it has fewer fantastic elements and more rational elements.

The OP's is using the words "low magic" in a fairly clear way, and I don't really see all the use in disputing his terminology even if you don't agree with his use of it.

If you want to get specific about the terminology of "high magic" vs "low magic" ... you'll see people referring to High Magic as Spiritual/hermetic/intellectual, and Low magic as personal/used toward mundane ends/intuitive. That has nothing to do with what the OP is talking about, and about the same relevance as a discussion of "high fantasy vs low fantasy"

When you get down to it, "high magic" and "low magic" in regards to a roleplaying game means how much magic is involved in the game, not how much there is in the world/setting.


This entry gives us Discworld as the very first entry for HIGH fantasy, and uses it as an example of what low fantasy is not. Looks to me like that article cites it as high fantasy (not high magic) specifically because it's set in a world where the Primary (the real world) does not exist and not due to whether it has high or low magic.


No. Magical being natural doesn't change anything. Magic is magic is magic. Certainly it changes things; at a certain point, magic = "science that we can't explain yet" ...

Attaching 2 animal skins using a needle and thread was at one point a highly magical process. The shaman would take the skins, and perform the ritual, running the thread though the skins, and a magical condition would occur, attaching the 2 skins together.

sometimes things labeled as "magic" aren't actually all that magical.

Sometimes things that seem very magical are explicitly not magic. Music (for example) isn't magic, even though it can do a lot of things that seem quite magical.


Things that use magic are magic items. That's what the words mean. This is how English works. The item doesn't use magic. The item uses non-magical things. Lenses, ink, paint, paper. Sure, there's a small being that sits inside of it, but that doesn't make it a magic item.

Calling an iconograph a magic item is like calling a wheelbarrow a magic item just because a summoned demon is pushing it around; it's like an art studio a magic item because you've got a summoned imp sitting in it painting.

The item itself is clearly non-magical.


However, it does not at all justify a LACK of magic in the setting.Low magic game != setting lacks magic. When most people talk about low magic games, they just means that magic does not portray a large role in the game. It doesn't mean that it's not there, or that it's not powerful.

Leon
2011-12-01, 01:19 PM
Magitek while a subset of magic item is still not the same - a magic camera will do everything with magic. This example has a magical creature doing what its good at controlled by a shutter mechanism aswell as needs to be kept stocked and fed.

Mechanika from Iron Kingdoms is similar - its a magic item but if that arcane battery goes flat you have a odd looking collection of bits bound to a otherwise well made weapon/armour/etc

Ravens_cry
2011-12-01, 01:26 PM
It's a mundane item with a magical creature doing purely mundane things. The item itself is no more magical than a wheelbarrow.

It's more like there is a brownie that lives in the wheelbarrow that pushes it for you. The sum total is a magic item.


Low magic != low fantasy; nor is high magic = high fantasy.
This I actually agree with.
Lord of the Rings is quite low magic at least at the time of the events of the book, crystal balls and Ringwraith-bane magic swords are artefacts and the only beings who call themselves wizards are in fact the universes equivalent of Angels.
Yet it is high fantasy in all its solemn grandeur.

Tyndmyr
2011-12-01, 01:53 PM
Yet it doesn't use it, the imp lives inside and paints what it sees as that is its job - its not a magic item in the sense of what is often considered a magic item. Its a Mundane item with a magical creature doing a job inside (same thing with a Dis-organizer)

You get Flash by surprising a creature that excretes sunlight - hardly a magic item.

Er...that specific creature is also a magical creature of legend, a Salamander.

And the imp paints in a split second. And is also magical.

It works solely because of the magical creatures. Thus, it is magical, not mundane.

The clacks are mundane. The iconograph is not.

Also, let us consider the humble monks...monks screw with TIME in this universe. They're slightly more high powered than ye olde D&D monk.



Certainly it changes things; at a certain point, magic = "science that we can't explain yet" ...

No. All magic in all games is the same way. It functions in accordance with rules, and thus, scientific principles can be applied to it. Scientific principles can be applied to ANYTHING. The definition of magic from websters is as follows...

Definition of MAGIC
1
a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces b : magic rites or incantations
2
a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source b : something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment

Oh look, nothing in there discludes magic being a normal force in a world. In fact, it rather has to be to function in a game.

Rorrik
2011-12-01, 01:58 PM
This debate is fascinating, it really is, but we're not actually addressing the original question of this thread by arguing about the word choice and etymology of the original poster. We basically understand that what he intends is a world with "magical" items but not with abundant spell casters. I suggest this debate be continued in a new thread.

Tyndmyr
2011-12-01, 02:01 PM
This debate is fascinating, it really is, but we're not actually addressing the original question of this thread by arguing about the word choice and etymology of the original poster. We basically understand that what he intends is a world with "magical" items but not with abundant spell casters. I suggest this debate be continued in a new thread.

I can't reasonably provide realistic advice until he clarifies what exactly he's looking for.

Given that he has given little guidance, and is using words in extremely unintuitive ways, I think waiting on clarification before providing advice is pretty reasonable.

Jayabalard
2011-12-01, 02:19 PM
It's more like there is a brownie that lives in the wheelbarrow that pushes it for you. The sum total is a magic item.That doesn't actually make it a magic item. You've still got a tiny being moving the object via muscle power.

That's like calling a brownie on a bicycle a magic item.

if you're talking about a brownie moving the wheelbarrow via magic, you're no longer talking about a situation analogous to an iconograph

Ravens_cry
2011-12-02, 04:56 PM
That doesn't actually make it a magic item. You've still got a tiny being moving the object via muscle power.

That's like calling a brownie on a bicycle a magic item.

if you're talking about a brownie moving the wheelbarrow via magic, you're no longer talking about a situation analogous to an iconograph
Unlike the brownie on a bicycle, or even the wheelbarrow example, you can use those separately, An iconograph is useless without the imp.
Still, if the bicycle had a special place made for a specially summoned brownie that was bound to the seat, yes, I would say that is magic item.
More magitek than some, but is not an Apparatus of the Crab a magic item?

Jay R
2011-12-03, 10:58 PM
The discussion has produced one important result, which is this:

The phrase "low magic" does not communicate the same thing to all of us.

Therefore we cannot yet advise the original poster. If Funky Goose would please tell us what the goal or his game is, in specific terms, we can offer advice. Until then, all we can do is compare alternate definitions of "low magic", which serves no useful purpose.

Leon
2011-12-04, 09:46 AM
I'm thinking of DMing a low/no magic fantasy game and am looking for advice as to what kind of system would be good for it, and how to balance it for the low amount of magic if I do have to adapt it for the game.

Also, any ideas of how to make interesting "magic" items for the players to find and have fun with without breaking the setting? Both along the lines of "a gadget that does X" and more diverse ideas.

Thanks!

D&D works fine with Low magic, its not as some may like to think geared to need a high level of items/Spell capabilities. Certainly its the most common way that it is played but its not required, what you need to do is decide on what level of involvement that magic has in your game and work from there.

Where D&D stops working as a system is in No magic games, but there are plenty of other systems that can cover that.

As for interesting magic items take the ones you would other have normally and give them some added benefits to make them as powerful weapons/items of the setting (once a effects that have utility uses - we had a sword in game that allowed the user to go incorporeal a round a day, one round may not seem like much but when you need to get somewhere it can be the difference between being there or not)


With Low magic you may want to ramp up the effects/Availability of Alchemical items.
Have a Look if you can at Iron Kingdoms for more on Alchemical healing (most of the items do use the cure line as a basis but are alchemical in nature rather than overly magical, they also don't fix in a instant always - a lil bit of heal over time)

With less reliance on magic players should* take things more cautiously and conversely you as the DM need to remember that when supplying the encounters.






* of course these are PCs we are talking about so they may not