Gherzek

[Kenneth]

Hey guys.. this is a dragon that I have that is from the first creation of dragon in existance ( along with bahamut, tiamat and others - off the top of my head i can think of 5 more) I am mostly just wondering if the CR is semi correct with him, right now he is in my world supposed to be the 2nd most powerful non-diety entity on the world, the most powerful is an ancient evil .. uhh force i guess for lack of better term) to give a brienf description of his level of bad-assery. when tiamat and bahamut first ascended o diety hood tiamat tried to recruit him and he just back handed her and made her bake him a damn pie.. ok well the pie part is a bitch incorrect.. but you get my point.. to reiterate this was relatively frsh in tiamats deity-ness so she hand't go qit all of her powers under control. he manage to sinlge handidly destroy an empire (think persians) who tried (and successfully) managed to control him for a few months before he broke free and ran rampant) yes , one of the obligatory old magic crazy power nations to explain random magic items being e'erywhere.. anyways give give me your thought on if he lives up to my expectations. Just keep in mind that groups are the best i can describe then null-optimization, as it is more storytelling group as opposed to rules/numbers group


Gherzek


Size/Type: Collasal Dragon

Hit Dice: 66d12+ 1518(dragon) [1927] 20d12+460 [585]((Fighter)[modified] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216996)) +261(toughness) +250(mantle of power) {3023}

Initiative: +8

Speed: 60 ft., fly 200 feet (average)

Armor Class: 89 (+4 Dex, +52 natural,+1 keen dodge+8 defense +24 deflection), touch 37, flat-footed 85

Base Attack/Grapple: +86/+136

Attack: Bite+94 (8d8+30)

Full Attack: Bite+94 (8d8+30), 2 Claws+92 (6d6+15), Wing+91(5d6+15), Tail slap+91(6d8+45)

Space/Reach: 540 ft by 80ft./25 ft.(30 ft with tail slap)

Special Attacks:Crush (8d8+36), tail sweep(6d8+45), dragon fear, breath weapons, spell-like abilities

Special Qualities: Immensity, damage reduction DR40/-, SR 54, Dragon senses, Dragon mass, immunities, reistances, fast healing 100, mantle of power, Fighter Abilities


Saves: Fort +66, Ref +49, Will +56



Abilities: Str 70, Dex 18, Con 56, Int 27, Wis 36, Cha 39

Skills: appraise+31, bluff+60, diplomacy +37, Escape artist +37, Inimidate +90, Jump +81, Knowledge (religion)+64, Knowledge (geography+64), Knowledge (nature)+47 Knowledge(the rest)+81, Listen +74, Search +64, Sense Motive +49, Spellcraft+31, Spot+74

Feats: alertness, cleave, Endurance, enhance breathweapon, Finishing blow, extend breath weapon, flyby attack, great cleave, hover, run, track, weapon foucs (bite, claw) Lightning Reflexes, improved initiative, improved critical (bite, claw, wing, tail slap), Power attack, Parry, quicken spell-like ability, snatch, swift, Tougnessx3, mobility, weapon specialization (bite, claw) wingover, lingering breath, dodge, keen dodge, combat brute, elusive target, faith unswerving, shock trooper, reaping talons, shards of granite

Environment: Cavernous lair inside mount Tiphareus

Organization: Unique

Challenge Rating: 38

Treasure: None

Alignment: Always neutral

Advancement: 67+ HD (Colossal)

Level Adjustment: —


Gherzek is a great and powerful dragon: reddish scales, massive horns, black claws that can rend steel, flesh and magic alike; wings that tear the very air. Gherzek is a dragon of power that few can even begin to compare, only a few creature on the face of the world come close to his power, Even fewer might exceed it. Gherzek is one of the most powerful dragons. being of the very first born. there are few creatures... there are few mountains that have been in exitsance longer that Gherzek

Crush(Ex): Gherzek crush attack affects all oppoents of huge size or smaller and deals 8d8+45 points of damage

Tail Sweep(Ex): Gherzek's tail sweep attacka ffects all opponents of large size or smaller within a 50 foot radius of hiw rear and deals 6d8+45 point of damage plus a Daze effect, a refle save (DC 45) halves this damage

Dragon Fear(Su): all opponents withing 560 feet of Gherzek must make a will save (DC 42) those who succeed are unaffected, those who fail are pnaicked for 2d4 rounds

Breath Weapon(Su): Gherzek has two breath weapons a 90 foot cone of primal fire that deals 28d10 points of damage (Ref DC66) ( ignores fire resistance and fire immunity) and Soul Blast a stroke of charged force dealing 14d6 points of force damage in addtion those damaged suffer a slow-like effect for 4d8 rounds. (Ref DC 66 halves the damage and negates the slow) Gherzek can use either breath weapons as an attack action once every 1d6 rounds, up to 66 times per day total.

Spell-Like ABility(Sp): Chain Lightning 5/day, Dispell Magic 5/day, Greater Dispell Magic 3/day, heal 1/day, wall of force 3/day. These spell like ability are as spells cast by a level 20th caster.

Immensity (Ex): Gherzek's great size and strength allow him to act as if he were actually 1 size category larger than colossal (if such a size did indeed exist) where it is beneficial to him

Mantle of Power (Su): A potent aura of magic negation and inherent might surrounds Gherzek at a distance of 40 feet from his body. anyone trying to cast a spell, use a spell-liek or supernatural ability upon him (or upon any other creature within 40 feet of him) from outside this aura will find their spell, or ability utterly inefffectual: similarly, anyone withing 40 feet of Gherzek cannot cast spells nor use spell-like and supernatural abilites ons omeone outside the aura. Thus a creature must be withing 40 feet of Gherzek to affect him with a spell, spell-liek or supernatural ability (although his spell resistance and saves still apply) or to cast spells or use spell-like or supernatural abilities upon allies who are also withing 40 feet of him. the Mantel of Power in now way affects Gherzek's ability to use his own spell-like or supernatural abilities. Gherzek 's Mantle of Power also grants him a +24 deflection bonus to AC, as well as an inherent +250 bonus to hit points)

Dragon Mass(Ex): Gherzek is immune to spells that would slow or halt his movement. In addition Gherzek is immune to being dazed or stunned.

Resistances(Ex): Gherzek has acid,cold,electrical, fire, force, and sonic resistance of 60. In addition Gherzek is immune to negative levles as well as death attacks as well as any spell or ability that duplicates teh effect of a spell of the enchantment school and illusion school.

Fighter Abilities (Ex): Gherzek has the following Fighter abilities: Bonus Feat, Tactical feat, Challenge(mettle, daunting challenge), Vigilant Bulwark, Strategist, Combat Focus, Second Wind, Threatening Presence, Mobile Combatant, Instinctive Reflexes, Counter Strike, Battle Perception, Inescapeable, Quicksilver Exertion, Indomnitability

as well as the following Martial Tactics
Nightmare Blade, Counter Charge, Stone Hammer, Devastating Blow, Elemental Blitz(primal fire), Soaring charge, Inner Focus, Crushing Strike, Colossus Strike, Elemental Armaments(primal fire), Invigorating Strike, Finishing Move, Persistent Wound, Time Stands Still

[Kenneth]

I am hoping for some critiques on this gentleman dragon.

at least say something liek ' wow he is pretty dangerous, or HEY your math is wrong' LOL

[Debihuman]

I am hoping for some critiques on this gentleman dragon.

at least say something liek ' wow he is pretty dangerous, or HEY your math is wrong' LOL

Hit points seem off. Toughness only grants +3 hp each time it is taken (see SRD or PH). Improved Toughness would give it +1 hp for every HD.

It should have 47 feats (and it only has 41 unless I counted wrong). 66 HD as a dragon gives is 23 feats, 20 HD as a fighter gives it 11 bonus feats, 7 standard feats and 6 tactical feats. You should designate the bonus feats, the tactical feats and any epic feats.

As I have no idea what half of those feats do, I really can't comment on them. If you use material that isn't in the Core books, you should cite to it.

At 86 HD, there is no way this thing should only be CR 38.

You left off all the special abilities it gets as a Fighter. You should list all of the them and they should be added under combat too.

DCs for Supernatural abilities are 10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma). [10+43+14= DC 67]

I'm sure there are more errors but it is difficult to critique epic creatures due to all the variables.

Debby

[Kenneth]

you are right for the most paret..


the CR of just abour 100% of all 3rd ed anythings are incorrect.. to be honest I am sure that optimizers could probabyl kill this guy with a level 20 wizard. i guess pairing him against lvl 38 characters is really the only surefire way. its just if certain playgrounders whom shall remain unmentioned can create characters that at 1st level are slinging around 8th level spells, then I am sure that this guy should in actuality be CR 12-15.

and Toughness in my campaign setting was homberewed to be 1+total HD in this case +87 HP. so like haivng a 2 higher con score.

I alwasy felt that the way regular toughness was was too 'front loaded' and by that imean when you get it its good but literally it goes form 75%-25% of your total Hpat 1st level to 7-12% of your HP in 2 more levels while this one while still better for lower base HD classes itsn;t a hueg waste for all the other classes.

and he doesn;t get ALL of the abilities a standard fighter gets just some of them.

I thougth the formual for dragos breath weapon used CON and not Cha?

[Debihuman]

Yes, breath weapon uses Con as its ability modifier. You have the wrong DC for that as it should be 76. However, t Dragon Fear should charisma based and the DC should be 67.

If you are going to houserule changes, you really should let people who are critiquing know. Toughness adds 3 hp and usually it is Improved Toughness that adds +1 hp per HD. Not sure why you felt you had to houserule Toughness when you just could have used Improved Toughness (it can be found in the Complete Warrior).

Debby

[Kenneth]

thank you :)

if ic oudl id bake you cookies

EDIT::!!!

OMG you created a pie domain.. seriosuly.. I think I am in love. I ask you to marry me but for osme reaosn internet marriage still has this weird stigmata

[Debihuman]

thank you :)

if ic oudl id bake you cookies

EDIT::!!!

OMG you created a pie domain.. seriosuly.. I think I am in love. I ask you to marry me but for osme reaosn internet marriage still has this weird stigmata

LOL! Best marriage proposal ever! I guess that proves the old adage true: the way to a man's heart is through his stomach. All it took was a pie domain!

Debby

[Kenneth]

LOL! Best marriage proposal ever! I guess that proves the old adage true: the way to a man's heart is through his stomach. All it took was a pie domain!

Debby

:) yep.. i mena those old adages are built on fiction!

anywyas cocerning randoms houerules

my verison fo tighness was there LONG before the imp verison was ever publihsed.. actually id say 60% ish of all my houerules have been put in print in one form or another ( i mean in WoTC and pathfinder.. dang 1 feat every odd level))

[NeoSeraphi]

The Immensity ability is not needed. There already exists a Size category above Colossal specifically made for old dragons. It's called Colossal+, and it is described in the Draconomicon.

Since he has the Track feat it would help if you listed his Survival modifier in the skills section (even if he doesn't have any ranks)

Gherzek does not meet the qualifications for the Combat Brute or Shock Trooper feats, as he does not have the prerequisite Improved Sunder or Improved Bull Rush feats.

Additionally, he is missing two almighty dragon feats that any dragon should have: Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike, from the Draconomicon. These feats grant you a serious amount of extra attacks per round.

You don't have the Multiattack feat (for some unknown reason), so your claws should be taking a -5 penalty to their attack rolls compared to the Bite, and the wing and tail slap should have a -6 comparative penalty (-5 penalty for secondary natural, and then an additional +1 gap from Weapon Focus).

Most illusion spells don't allow for "immunity". You can't just see an illusion and immediately know "Oh, that's not an illusion!" You have to interact with it first. The only way to not see illusions to begin with is to be continuously true seeing, and that's not "immunity". "Immunity" refers to having impenetrable spell resistance, and the majority of illusion spells don't offer spell resistance, for reasons I just explained. So I suggest you change Mantle of Power to grant immunity to enchantments and a continuous true seeing effect.

[Debihuman]

Multiattack was probably just left off the list. It would be interesting to see this dragon written "by the book" (sans houserules and the odd fighter prestige class). I'm definitely not up for it though. I get a headache just looking at epic creatures.

Debby

[Kenneth]

again. the vast majority fo things i created happeend LONG before WoTC ever came up with the idea.. and serisouyl colossal+.. they were too lazy to come up with a new name like... Titanic or some such?
and hsi immunotyt o illusions has nothing to do with reisatnce he is just a little too bad ass for those to work on him. its like this 'i put up illusion of blah' Gherzek says ' FAKE! next please."

[Pronounceable]

Not very important in the grand scheme of things but gerzek happens to mean dumbass, which severely cramps this guy's style.

[Kenneth]

well I guess its good that this Dragon's name is Gherzek. well that and the fact that Turkish is a non existant languange in my D&D created universe.

that and it is not pronouned Gearzig as you would in Turkish.. but Grr Zek.


Oh and to be correct.. gerzek means idiot.. not dumbass.

[absolmorph]

again. the vast majority fo things i created happeend LONG before WoTC ever came up with the idea.. and serisouyl colossal+.. they were too lazy to come up with a new name like... Titanic or some such?
and hsi immunotyt o illusions has nothing to do with reisatnce he is just a little too bad ass for those to work on him. its like this 'i put up illusion of blah' Gherzek says ' FAKE! next please."
Suggestion: instead of saying he's immune to illusions, I would recommend you say he automatically disbelieves the illusion, without needing to interact with it. It doesn't step outside existing mechanics, and it allows him to act as if he believed the illusion (should such a thing bring him some amusement).

Furthermore, Dragon Fear forces constant saving throws against fear. Even if someone succeeds. I'd recommend taking the Frightful Presence feature from standard dragons as something to build it around.
Actually, I'd recommend going through the SRD entries for dragons anyway; they might help you refine the mechanics of some of the abilities, especially if you take the abilities straight out.

[Yitzi]

I am hoping for some critiques on this gentleman dragon.

at least say something liek ' wow he is pretty dangerous, or HEY your math is wrong' LOL

Hey, your spelling is wrong, in numerous places.

[Amechra]

Heh...

You might call Mantle of Power a defense... I call it a containment field for a Locate City bomb...

All I need to do is use Extraordinary Spell Aim to exclude myself, and Gherzek goes flying a couple hundred miles.

Alternately, it could be used to contain a Fimbulwinter spell, or an Apocalypse from the Sky.

[Kenneth]

Ive never really gotten into teh whole cheddar spell casting so you'll have to expalin how those spell interact with Gherzek.

[Amechra]

Well, out of those 3 examples, only the Locate City bomb is cheese; the others are just 8th and 9th level spells, respectively.

The reason why I call it a "containment field" is that all of those spells have ranges in miles. The way that Mantle of Power works is that it, without altering the area or range of a spell, causes it to not affect anything outside that 40' radius.

-Locate City Bomb: This combo works by pushing everything inside the area to the edge of the area, dealing damage based on the range moved. Since the area is still hundreds of miles, but the only area that gets affected by the movement is that 40' radius...

-Fimbulwinter: This spell just turns the area to Winter for a variable number of weeks; if you have it Maximized, it can last for over a year. This one has a strange interaction; based off the text for Mantle of Power, the area outside would still get the uber-powerful winds and the super-snowfall... but no-one outside the 40' radius, where-ever it is at the time, GAFF.

-Apocalypse from the Sky: The spell has a range of a ton of miles, and is just raw destruction... or it becomes an area of 40' when cast within the area.

Really, it doesn't make any of these spells or combos better... it just makes them SAFER for you.

After all, with the Mantle of Power, you could hit Gherzek with a Locate City Bomb above a populated area, which would otherwise have killed everyone within hundreds of miles.

Think of it as letting off a nuke within a paper baggie... without the nuke being able to go through the baggie.

[Kenneth]

thats cool.. but i do have a quick qustion to that.. SO your casting spells and are in melee range of a dragon?

[Amechra]

Believe me, that isn't really a problem at all.

I invite you to take a gander over here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=331.0)

EDIT: Also, since most casters are almost perfectly SAD, they tend to have high Constitutions.

[Kenneth]

too much rto read through really... just let me know ho wyou plan to get past 5 or more attacks and still be able to .. ya know what I know there are tons of people out there that can do crazy things liek the aforemention 1st levle caster slinging around 8th levle spells.


Untill you write up a combat encounter between Gherzek and your unamed caster. I still think that GHerzek trumps any single character, provided no cheats (like the 8th level spells form a 1st level caster)

[Amechra]

Alright, let's see...

Let's use a Necropolitan Human Wizard 20.

He casts Etherealness, and is thus immune to any attack Gherzek has (none of his stuff effects Ethereal enemies; the only exception to this is the Soul Blast Breath Weapon. Your Dispels cannot effect Ethereal creatures.)

The Wizard has taken the Transdimensional Spell metamagic, which allows his spells to affect Ethereal creature/material creatures while Ethereal.

He is:
-Immune to Fear
-Immune to your Attacks and Spells (Except for 1/6 rounds.)
-If he took the Violate Spell metamagic feat, he can deal half damage vs. the resistances, while at the same time dealing damage that Gherzek cannot heal (Vile damage bypasses pretty much all forms of healing.)


In other words, as soon as he can figure out a spell that stops breath weapons (there is one in the Draconomicon, iirc.), he could take this dude out with ease.

Might take him a while, but it would be less of a problem.

And before you call cheese, this ain't cheezy; I'm not using ANYTHING for a purpose not intended.

Feats used:
Violate Spell
Transdimensional Spell
Combat Casting.

[Kenneth]

Hmm thank you now I know what I need to add to Gherzek.

also hwo does dispel not dispel a spell? becase under the heading for ethereal creature ist says Gaze effects and abjurations also extend from the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane. None of these effects extend from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane.
and im pretty sure that dispel magic is abjuration.


anywyas a quick way to negate this is to have GHerzek be like this' lol etheral i still hurt you' so I need to update this.

and Like i was saying waay earlier when I said CR 38 was probably not apprioate and I need to take him down to CR 12-15.

can you think of more way that a single 20th level caster can take him down?

the only reason I aks this is HE is supposed to be more powerful than any non deity in my world (minus 1 .. thing/force) so no 1 non diety being should be able to kill him..

[absolmorph]

-Locate City Bomb: This combo works by pushing everything inside the area to the edge of the area, dealing damage based on the range moved. Since the area is still hundreds of miles, but the only area that gets affected by the movement is that 40' radius...
And its area is two dimensional, so Explosive spell moves all targets in it to the top or bottom of the circle, or 0 feet.


The Wizard has taken the Transdimensional Spell metamagic, which allows his spells to affect Ethereal creature/material creatures while Ethereal.
Transdimensional spell allows effects to reach from material to Etheral, Shadow and extradimensional, but not the other way around.
See, the real trick is to send Gherzek to the Etheral Plane and use Transdimensional spells to blast him. Admittedly, the SR does become a problem, but Caster Level is easy to boost.

Now, Kenneth, if you want something to be more powerful than a(n optimized) wizard, without being a caster, there's one solution: don't give it stats. If it has stats, it can be killed. No exceptions.

[Amechra]

And its area is two dimensional, so Explosive spell moves all targets in it to the top or bottom of the circle, or 0 feet.

Last time I checked, it was rather ambiguous about whether or not the effect was specifically 2-Dimensional.

[absolmorph]

Last time I checked, it was rather ambiguous about whether or not the effect was specifically 2-Dimensional.
"Area: 10 mile/level radius circle, centered on you"
The key word is bolded.
A circle is definitely two dimensional.

[Kenneth]

You sense the distance and direction
to the nearest community of a
minimum size designated by you at
the time of casting. For instance, you
could choose to find the nearest community
at least as large as a village, or
you could choose to locate only the
nearest metropolis.
This spell measures the distance
to the “nearest” community as the
minimum distance one would have to
travel to reach the city without moving
through solid objects. Thus, a caster
on the surface isn’t likely to locate a
subterranean city half a mile beneath
his feet, even if the next closest community
is 5 miles away overland

how in the world do people get a direction senseing spell to deal damage? THis has to be the dumbets thing ive ever heard of.. Using the same logic to turn this into a bomb allows one to turn Know DIrection into teh same thing

[Amechra]

Let me put it this way... It's kinda complicated, but it is a thing of beauty when it finally clicks.

Essentially:
-The Coldcasting feat gives any spell you cast the [Cold] Descriptor.
-Flash Frost adds +2 Cold damage per level to any [Cold] Spell.
-After that, there are a couple of extra steps to go through, which involve adding a couple more feats, and then you are golden.

[Kenneth]

well flash forst deals an extra 2 cold dmage.. hmm.. I am surpied that this works givijg hwo a spell that tells you direction and hwo far can deal damamge..

this is twisting rules IMO.. along the lines of healing from dorwning


a big reaosn why the majority of 3rd ed players I dislike playing with. they do things like this.

also where is the cold casting feat?

[Kenneth]

in talks with peoples to see exactly how this works.. so far for me i am getting the sense you all've been locate city bombing incorrectly.

[Amechra]

You do realize that the Locate City bomb is a joke, right? It, like many of the "cheesy" options, are not truly intended for play.

Still, though, I have a serious question; if I were to cast Haste on myself outside the Mantle of Power, would it stop affecting me if I pass the border? Or would the spell be fine?

And I would just like to say that, while the Mantle of Power blocks Spells and Supernatural abilities, it does not, in fact block Spell-Like abilities, instead blocking Spell-liek abilities, which I have never even heard of. Is that a typo?

(Hint: Please, use a spell-checker, because it is hard to seriously help you go over making this guy BA when I have problems reading the stat block.)

[Kenneth]

You do realize that the Locate City bomb is a joke, right? It, like many of the "cheesy" options, are not truly intended for play.

Still, though, I have a serious question; if I were to cast Haste on myself outside the Mantle of Power, would it stop affecting me if I pass the border? Or would the spell be fine?

And I would just like to say that, while the Mantle of Power blocks Spells and Supernatural abilities, it does not, in fact block Spell-Like abilities, instead blocking Spell-liek abilities, which I have never even heard of. Is that a typo?

(Hint: Please, use a spell-checker, because it is hard to seriously help you go over making this guy BA when I have problems reading the stat block.)

You do relaize that if something is not intended for play then one should not say PLOW!! look whut i do!!!

I mean seriously.. if you actually take the time to write up thinsg liek this. you will never convince me that you do not use this in game, as you have already said how you would use this IN GAME to defeat Gherzek, so tell me this.. if it is not intended for use in a game.. then why in the world did you use it as an example of in game play?

kind of goes agianst the grain of ' this is not intended to use in real play'

[Amechra]

Tell me, when would you legitimately face Gherzek in combat?

From the fluff, he is essentially like unto the Kukla from Exalted; he is a feature of the landscape, due to his power, not something you actually fight.

And can you point out where I said that I would actually use the Locate City bomb? That first comment of mine was really only to share the very funny image, in my mind, of a massive dragon going careening rather rapidly off into the distance.

But if you insist on going the route of having him statted...

Replace that Fast Healing with Regeneration X/-, where X is whatever number you want, and then give him immunity to nonlethal damage; that way, he cannot be actually damaged by any attack that does physical damage.

[Kenneth]

well the over arching storyline of my game wolrd you basically Have to go fight him in order to be given His fangs/claws of his own free will, ( the other legendary dragons in my world are downright super selfish and have a kill on sight agenda for anything.., except for the one fuarding the dragon graveyard, but then.. well the horros that await one there is beyond scary, so only the bravest or follhardy would entreat that guy.

the point I am trying to make is. the PCs find out the vil force is unleashed and only certain things can kill hurt him ( they never find out what exactly can kill it though LOL as honestly only 'it' truely knows that) some of those things are the claws/teeth of the first born of the dragons.

basically they honorably fight Gherzek beat him (not kill him though thanks to the unimaginable amount fo magical items the guy has and used on himself) and he wake sup and is like' Ok.. what do you want?' which freaks teh players out because.. this isn't a cake walk of a fight.

side note.. I don't play epic levels so.. there is not really going to be any level 38 characters running around trying to kill things.

for me epci play is really 17th level plus. i mean at 12th level a well formed and half decently played party is basically unkillable so..