Ok, What is My Problem? [Exalted]

[Lord Raziere]

I like Exalted. Its my favorite RPG.

….but for some reason I can't find any one Exalt that I would like to play the most.

Solars: I dislike because I don't like shiny, sun and perfection themes, I don't want to play them, but I would play an Exalt very much like them, but less perfect, shiny and all-powerful.

Abyssals: I like them, and I would very much like to play Abyssal, but I have this crazy urge to always try and find a way to weasel out of Resonance and even wish to get rid of it entirely even though I know that isn't what playing an Abyssal is about- without becoming a Solar of course, the very last thing I want to do with my Abyssals.

Infernals: I like these too….but I don't know really. maybe Its a little too alien and constrained, I would play something like these too…..but starting out with my own charm set instead of having to go through others for some reason. I don't know, maybe I actually like them or something.

Dragon-Blooded: I like these, I love elemental stuff and such……but they are too weak and too much emphasis on teamwork. I'd rather be able to manipulate the elements without teamwork and against Celestial foes by myself….despite the fact that this goes against the entire point of Dragon-Bloods, which again tells me that I shouldn't be playing them

Lunars: I would play these, I really would like to….but the shapeshifting is bad and the charms are bland. might have to recheck once the errata hits.

Sidereals: I'd play these if it weren't for their mechanical problems. again, recheck once the errata comes.

Alchemicals: I have no problem with them….except the charm slot thing….though I've heard that its easily worked around…..which probably means I should be playing Alchemicals…..

So, can anyone tell me what is wrong with me when it comes to Exalted? because it seems I really like it, but have these weird…perceptions about it that makes incompatible with actually playing some of the splats, what in the world?

[meschlum]

Play Fair Folk?

With a f(r)iendly ST, you can shenanigan your way into whatever fluff seems convenient, at the desired power level, and have a wide range of options. That the Raksha fluff insists you're a soul eating monster doesn't really matter, since going against type is so ingrained a trope that the Fair Folk have no choice but to go along with it.

Of course, your sanity as a player may be endangered, but that's a bonus. I'm sure the spiders said so, so it must be true. Probably.

Naturally, you're liable to end up in a party of people who walk around under so much cold iron they've got in story justification to raise their Strength multiple dots just going to the corner store, but that's genre savvy PCs for you.

Not that it will help them (unless the ST says so).

[Lord Raziere]

yea but wheres all the blasty stuff? oh right, mutations. but I still can't quite figure out oneiromancy stuff, which seems mostly to be illusions and such…and I have no problem with the soul eating monster thing, I know like at least two ways around it, maybe even three.

maybe I need to reread fair folk rules again…..combine oneiromancies with Treasures by using Oadenols Codex…along with behemoths and mutations...

[Kuma Da]

Ah, classic White Wolf issue. "This thing has a lot of things I like, but there's so much fluff that I can't even decide where to begin trimming it down to make it so I like it."

Don't treat the fluff as law. This is hands down the easiest way to make any White Wolf product you play better.

[meschlum]

Well, I am somewhat typecast. Not that I mind - I think I got myself into this knowingly.

The Fair Folk rules won't help. Useful advice (maybe):

Shaping combat Does Not Work. Or, to be precise, it's hyper-Chungian and doesn't even work by that paradigm.

You are your Panoply. Grace Magic covers lots of Charms, and lets you do a incredible range of stuff (exhibit A: most of the things I write. Exhibit B: everything else). So you'll pick up a few Charms to supplement your high Artifact rating, and can spend the rest on whatever you want your character to do.

Personal Fluff is Critical. It's extremely easy to make broken builds (see half of what I write), though it tends to be obvious. If you need to make a pilgrimage to the Five Elemental Poles in order to empower your Sword Of Killing Everything (tm), and absolutely cannot harm anything purple, you're suddenly a lot more fun to play with!

Setting Fluff is Pointless. This is the Elders problem all over again. Fair Folk have so many tools with which to wreck Creation, it's best not to think about them too hard. The Real, Deep Truth is that the Raksha invaded Creation a long time ago, decided to play at being Exalts, and have been kicking others out of their sandbox ever since. Or not. Who cares? You're just using the available mechanics to make what you want, anyway.

Set your limits. Infinite recursive Unshaped enabling hypertech and exponential Wyld reformatting are not for everyone (even if feasible for starting tier characters). Nor is turning Exalted into Care Bears. Agree with your ST as to how outrageous things can be before you start building towards either goal.

Mostly, Have Fun! Creating a Fair Folk noble is a chore, especially with a high Artifact rating (and, since You Are Your Panoply, your artifact rating will tend to be high, unless you Set Your Limits). So start out with a goal, set aside a few dots for panoply and a few Charms for support, and just spend the rest however seems fun. Grace magic will take care of the rest.

Also, Communicate - be sure you and your ST are on the same page as to what your character's theme and limits are. Things end up badly otherwise.

[Lord Raziere]

but Exalted's fluff is awesome, how could I tamper with it? I can't just do something that gets rid of Resonance or come up with some crazy excuse that allows me to start out with Devil-Tiger charms, or create a bunch of Celestial Dragon-Blooded out of thin air, or anything like that, people would then just not play with me for whatever reason they think is wrong to tamper with that thing, and I'd be stuck with a bunch of things I like and no one to play with.

[Gensh]

The alternative solution to developing your own Charms as a Devil-Tiger is instead to just find/make up a Yozi that's alien in a way that you're comfortable playing with. Try going to the list of Yozis (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=List_of_Yozis) and see if there's one that interests you. There are quite a few homebrew Charmsets posted, including some from the Demented One, who as you know has since become an Ink Monkey. There are 15 listed canon Yozis, but there are 23 total, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to ask the ST to work with you on making one that you like. Alienness is a necessity, but it need not be something unsettling.

[Lord Raziere]

Well I do have this Icefire Lion Yozi idea that I've been thinking upon….

he would be named Zarakkan….

in fact I'm in the process of developing his charm set and have already got his Excellency and all the basic stuff done, so yes that could work, mayhaps.

[Jerthanis]

I like Exalted. Its my favorite RPG.

….but for some reason I can't find any one Exalt that I would like to play the most.

Generally speaking, you'll play the Exalt type appropriate to the game the ST is running anyway, so aside from recommendations or requests, it doesn't really matter much which is your absolute favorite anyway. Unless the ST is running a mixed circle, which is... kind of a bad idea (IMHO, not that I haven't done it before knowing it was a bad idea)

But if you still want to figure it out for sure, it sounds like Abyssals are the closest to what you want. First of all, I hate the fact that people treat so much of the Exalted lore as sacrosanct when really, everyone changes some stuff. Changing Resonance so that it isn't almost unplayably bad if you do anything other than murder everything you see isn't going to cause the White Wolf gestapo to break down your door and haul you away. Resonance as written is stupid, feel free to change it to whatever you can agree on with your group. If there's a real stickler for the canon, just remind them of a Snowbound Mystery and watch them admit that yes, there is Exalted canon that is totally, unforgivably stupid, and from there they will have to defend Resonance and why it will make the game better to be that devastating to your character.

As far as 'Exalted canon' goes, it makes sense to balk at altering much if any of the canon since it's so detailed, intricate and interrelated and for the most part really cool, but this hesitation to change what you don't like and have reason to dislike out of some fear that it'll make something fundamental about the game shift is just crazy. Make your game your own, and if people in your group don't like it and you can't come to a consensus then... I dunno, you might have problems, but at least try to make it the game you want it to be.

Other than that, Solars aren't as shiny as they're sometimes made out to be. Orichalcum, IIRC, means "Mountain Brass", so if that helps, their weapons and armor are more Brass than Gold and it can be painted to be slightly more inconspicuous. They glow when they use their powers, but much of the game is about using powers in subtle enough ways that you can get away with it anyway.

Finally, Dragonbloods aren't weak compared with anything other than Celestial Exalted and the very most powerful gods and monsters of the setting, so if you're in a story fighting Buck Ogres and a couple Fae, or a Demon escaped into Creation, you can kick ass alone plenty.

[Lord Raziere]

well….I would get rid of Sins of Death for Abyssals. Sins of Life? reasonable for the Neverborn. I can understand being punished for that. but since I'm going to destroying everything anyways…..why be discriminatory Neverborn? just let me destroying anything I want, even your servants, they are going to die anyways by your logic and goals….

and there, with that out of the way, an Abyssal can actually be Defiant and succeed…..

that and maybe get rid of the "Neverborn mind control you for a scene" thing. cause if the Neverborn can mind-control you whenever your Resonance is too high, why can't they do that all the time?

wait….now that I think about it, why don't the Neverborn just make the Abyssals walking Resonance eruptions that just poison and destroy everything everywhere they go all the time? its not as if the Abyssals can actually blend in anywhere unless they use Face-Drinking Bite. they could just y'know, have 100 fountains of resonance and entropy walking around, mind controlled to destroy everything in their path…...

[KaganMonk]

I'd guess the main reason is that they merely twisted/reflected the original Exaltation. They may not have the expertise to mess with them too much. Seems like Auto is the only one with that sort of knowledge.

[Lord Raziere]

…..but they made a deal with Yozis who in theory reversed engineered Exaltation and worked together to get half the Solar Exaltions as well as turn them into their Primordial versions.
The Ebon Dragon even had to argue with the other Yozis into not making their Exalts into super-akuma because of their oaths. The Neverborn don't have these oaths and don't need free will, they just need everything dead.

….Guess the Ebon Dragon and the Yozis didn't want to share their theoretically "reverse-engineered" plans to the Neverborn and have them be able to modify the Exaltations to where they could easily destroy everything, so that the Yozis could have a chance at making Creation into Hell.

Meaning the Abyssals have free will thanks to, once again…..the Ebon Dragon.

…………*Shrugs* Makes sense to me. He screwed up everyone else's plans, why not the Neverborn's?

[TheCountAlucard]

The Ebon Dragon even had to argue with the other Yozis into not making their Exalts into super-akuma because of their oaths. The Neverborn don't have these oaths and don't need free will, they just need everything dead.They also don't have a schedule to keep - the Abyssals aren't going to destroy Creation in a single day, and making them mindless slaves isn't going to change that.

As such, I don't think the barely-concious Neverborn really would've cared if their Exaltations were free-willed or not, as long as their massive power was turned to world-destroying ends.

[Lord Raziere]

Uh huh.

Anyways I'm thinking I'm figuring out my personal canon changes:

Personal Canon.

1. No Sins of Death
2. No six hours to stalk targets of Hearts Blood, you can just kill them
3. No Eclipsoids or Principle Primordial Emulation. (As well a few charms from Dreams of the First Age, but that'd be too long a list, and everyone probably gets rid of them anyways.)
4. Lunars can potentially cast up to Labyrinth Circle Necromancy and God-Machine Protocols as well due to their protean outsider nature.


still, trying to be careful here.

other thoughts: some people want more freedom for their Abyssals. Might be a good idea to make optional Resonance-Lite House Rules…..

[Tengu_temp]

So, OP... Your problem is pretty much that Exalted that are supposed to be weaker than Solars are weaker than Solars, and that Abyssals and Infernals have actual limitations that come with their very nature? As for Solars, you're missing the point - not only are they not perfect (just look at the example characters, most of them are total *******s), but their concept of being exemplars at what they do means that every character concept that doesn't rely on flashy special powers, and a lot of those who do, can be played as a Solar. Quick example - Batman as a Night caste. If someone can't come up with an interesting Solar character, that means they can't come up with an interesting character for any game without relying on weird special abilities as a crutch.

[Lord Raziere]

Actually I have a lot of characters who are Solars, mostly because they the Exaltations that best fit them. I just regard as the things that have actually come to mind that I could do with them, not the things I actually prefer to play and want to come ideas for, but still I got Solar characters I'm willing to play, I just didn't expect or focus on wanting to create them in the first place.

Batman is a Sidereal, too focused on preparation and planning. but I can see how your point of view would think differently.

and furthermore I actually dislike Solars for being too flashy, direct in your face with their powers and going "AHAHAHAHA I'M PERFECT AT THIS I'M PERFECT AT THIS, NO ONE CAN BEAT ME, I'M GOING TO CREATE UTOPIA AND/OR BE A ****!" and prefer Abyssals, Sidereals and Lunars because they are more toned down and face more challenges.

but weird special abilities? why not? weird special abilities are awesome, Solars are too boring for being too straight and direct in their application, I like Infernals more than them because of their weird abilities that go in strange directions. Solars are just too linear for me. I mean, only Solars can make me yawn in boredom at viewing omnipotence because there is no trick to it. they combine all the worst aspects of 3.5 wizards, with all the worst aspects of 3.5 fighters. viewed as all-powerful sun kings they are boring because they can do anything, viewed as paragons of a single skill, they are still boring because its one dimensional: "I am the best swordsman ever!!!"
….ok now what?

furthermore as far as themes go…they are also boring. they are too easily predictable, too generic, none of the questions they ask are interesting.
"what if you could wield all the power in the world?"
uh….do stuff? big question, I'd have to think about it, wouldn't want to use it unwisely.
"what skill would you be the best at?"
uh….something? I'm not sure myself really. since I'm playing a fantasy game, I would prefer to go beyond the realms of possibility to find things I cannot possibly do in reality, rather reach the pinnacle of possibility like Solars
"what about the consequences of your actions?"
…..they are the consequences of my actions. I deal with them. what are you getting at? if I have this power, I obviously shouldn't let something as stupid as impulse allow me to dictate how I use it, I should spend it and save it wisely like money, plan things out, be cautious with the power I have been granted, lest I be reckless and cause stupid things to happen.

I like the weird powers, because they catch my attention. Solars don't catch them. they are just there. so, at first sight they are boring. at the same time you have everyone talking about how awesome and better than everyone they are. now they are arrogant and all powerful- but still boring and generic
bad combination. other splats don't catch my dislike because yes, I like weird powers, it is a bias of mine, and sure I could make characters that don't have them, but to me they just wouldn't be as notable. the cyborg war-loving human who is racist against elves meeting a humble summoner elf ambassador is far more interesting to me than a war-loving human who meets a humble ambassador. that is just my taste in characters, its a feature not a bug.

its the same reason I dislike superman and batman- superman because he is boring, batman because everyone likes to say he is always preparing and can beat anyone despite the fact that he is a normal human. and its the reason I like Spiderman, the X-Men, various anime, because their powers and weird and interesting.

furthermore, I prefer a measure of grittiness in my protagonist, I prefer some prices needing to be paid, yellow and gold was never my favorite color, I hate brainwashing powers, Solars have the best social charms and I don't like them because they don't actually feel like they are being social, just dominating, I feel Abyssals are more honest because they outright say "FEAR ME!" which is awesome in comparison to the Solar persuading people with pretty words,

straight heroics are less interesting to me than stranger, grittier and yes I daresay it, darker, heroics, but still with the same amount of awesome, that and solving problems while only being a super-weapon of destroying everything is more interesting because I have no "press this button to be super-something that solves this problem". Sidereals interest me because of their more limited powers that I have to think about when and how to use, Lunars because shapeshifting, Dragon-Blooded for their elemental powers so I can burn stuff, shape stone into a bunch of things- if only I could make an army of stone statues with my Dragon-Blooded, that would dance along with said dragon-blooded and then using a charm, would allow the stone statues to breath fire, while walking on water, now that would be awesome.

stuff like that dragon-blooded example there? that is the kind of stuff I want to do. teaching a bunch of vanilla mortals to be the best soldiers ever, then make the best weapons ever, then fight with the best tactics ever? yaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwnn…..asleep at the first "best".

in short, yes I like the weird. the strange. the imperfect, the offbeat, the things that are not exemplars, the tricky, the abnormal, the things that take winding roads and come from left field, that is what I live for. go take your golden super-normals elsewhere. Raziere am not interested.

need I say more?

[Sanguine]

I take it you don't like Captain America? Because he is pretty much the epitome of what you are complaining about. Boring powers, but then it's not about the powers it's about the person who wields the powers.

Anyway, there are plenty of weirder Charms in the Solar set:

Wyld-Shaping Technique
Glorious Solar Saber
That one that let's you punch people into other realms of existence.

The list goes on.

You seem to be under the impression that Solars are generic. They aren't. They are the leaders of men, designed by the Most High to lead his revolutionary army. Sure they have generic perfection as well, but that is just because they were created by a being of perfection. Where they really shine however is leadership. This is why they regain the motes from Immanent Solar Glory by leading.

Edit: Another one of their major themes is Virtue. Sadly it is an underdeveloped theme with only a handful of Charms dealing with it.

[Drascin]

So, OP... Your problem is pretty much that Exalted that are supposed to be weaker than Solars are weaker than Solars, and that Abyssals and Infernals have actual limitations that come with their very nature? As for Solars, you're missing the point - not only are they not perfect (just look at the example characters, most of them are total *******s), but their concept of being exemplars at what they do means that every character concept that doesn't rely on flashy special powers, and a lot of those who do, can be played as a Solar. Quick example - Batman as a Night caste. If someone can't come up with an interesting Solar character, that means they can't come up with an interesting character for any game without relying on weird special abilities as a crutch.

Batman as a Night Caste would have an entirely different appeal, though.

The idea with Batman is that he's still human, and manages to go toe to toe with beings much above his weight class through preparation, training, and never giving up ever.

The idea with Solars is that they are POWER OVERWHELMING - they don't need resolve or preparation, because they are just plain better than their opposition at their niche. Their idea is perfection - a Solar is plain and simple the best at what he does and that's the point. (Granted, the actual mechanics don't bear this out, as fact is doing anything in Exalted without excruciating preparation is a profoundly unwise move for everyone including Solars, but that is what every piece of fluff about Solars keeps harping on and on about and therefore what people will see about them when reading about what splat to play).

So a Solar is entirely unsuited to doing the Batman arc. A Solar doesn't need to search for secret masters of the best martial arts in the world (don't even mention SMA, because those are a downgrade from Solar charms, not upgrade :smalltongue:), build himself myriads of gadgets, play psychological warfare on the criminal world, or push himself to the breaking point to keep up. His innate charms already make him more powerful than everything else in the setting except the few other Solar-level entities. For a Solar being Batman would a hobby.

[Tengu_temp]

need I say more?

Yes. You seem to be under the assumption that Solars' themes of perfection means that they cannot be flawed, and are incapable of interesting solutions and trickery. That is simply untrue, and the problem lies not in the Solars themselves, but in people who are incapable of playing them as anything but a shining paragon of Gurren Lagann-like inspirational speeches and straightforward kicking butt.

Also, weird abilities and weird races are way too often used by bad roleplayers to make their character feel speshul without actually giving them an interesting personality or role. In comparison, a character who seems mundane but whose prowess in its mundane skills is so incredible that it lets it perform incredible, superhuman feats, is an amazing concept for me. Cutting a mountain in two with a sword is so much cooler than waggling a finger and summoning a firestorm that destroys it.

As for challenge, it's Exalted - no matter how strong you are there is always a bigger fish, often in the pond right next to you. Not to mention that due to WW's "awesome" grasp at rules characters tend up being much less powerful in crunch than in fluff - the gap of power between a level 20 DND character and a level 5 one is so much bigger than the gap of power between a starting Solar and a mortal soldier.

[Lord Raziere]

yes, but a man who uses a sword to summon a bladelike firestorm that burns through the mountain to cut in half is even better. best of both worlds.

I am of the opposite mind: everyone already uses such concepts as "master swordsman" or "best talker ever" and such, they are boring to me because their isn't that much different from the normal thing there, just applied either on a larger scale or refined to a very sharp point, often both.

I prefer to explore how one would use strange powers as well as normal ones; the humble ambassador had to pay whom he summoned for their service, which is miles different from the usual summoning that simply binds summoned thing to the casters will and makes them a slave, which speaks about the character themselves: when they learned magic, they chose to use a form of summoning that was a fair trade rather than slanted towards himself.
weird powers can be used to flesh out the character, add sort of a metaphor to who they are; would not a reckless rebel be a storm? would not the leader of a tribe be a wolf? I view powers as a character trait, just like their appearance, personality and background, if they didn't have those powers, they wouldn't be that character, as I like to make powers as reflections of the people themselves.
to give them powers that don't match who they are- would not be creating them right. however people can match their powers in creative if unexpected ways.

but really, I am actually willing to try Solars, I did start a thread for a Solar game to see how they would play out, it just hasn't gotten around to picking who would be in it, so I'll probably find out if I like them sooner or later.

but still, I prefer to have characters that are both interesting in personality and powers, why settle for one or the other?

edit: as for Solars using virtue….hmm that actually sounds like a more interesting theme than paragon of skills. I use my swordsmanship- COMPASSIONATELY!