TWF Swordsage or TWF Warblade?

[ranger557]

I was looking through the options of TWF for ToB and was wondering what class makes the cake when it comes down to TWF. I know on the Warblade side it has more hp, BAB, and Stormguard warrior, but on the Swordsage side it has shadow blade, more maneuvers, and SAD. So what is the key factors in making a ToB TWF, given which is better to choose from? Because both sound amazing, but feel like a stalemate. Any thoughts? Thanks

[NeoSeraphi]

Swordsage does not have SAD. It uses Wisdom for its Save DCs (for Shadow Hand), it uses Strength to hit and deal damage, it uses Dex to qualify for TWF and its other feats. It also needs both Wis and Dex for AC.

You can overcome the Strength to-hit and to-damage if you use Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, but that's two feats, just to earn some SAD.

Meanwhile, a warblade can just pump his Strength and Con, while keeping the bare minimum Dex in order to qualify for Two-Weapon Fighting (A little MAD, but the Int focus isn't necessary, so you can dump that, Wis, and Cha, while a swordsage in melee will still need Con)

[kardar233]

However, swordsage abilities (IMO) seem to synergize better with TWF than Warblade ones do. You've got plenty of bonus damage sources through Desert Wind, Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw, so I'd say grab a level of Pouncebarian and stack bonus damage increases. Maybe go into Telflammar Shadowlord to shadowpounce three times per round.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Well first make sure you can do Two-Weapon attacks with strikes. Otherwise its pretty pointless. That taken care of, my suggestion.

Either way, a dip in the other would serve as a useful dip. Warblade base, dip Swordsage for Shadowblade and Assassain's stance and possibly Wis to AC. Swordsage base, dip Warblade for extra BAB, HP, and to grab Iron Heart and White Raven manuevers.

Swordsage would be useful for its already Dex focused, easy access to Shadowblade feat (Dex to Damage yay!), and Assassain's stance. Early dips in Rogue, Psionic Rogue and later dips in SA PrC will give you access to decent SA ability.

Warblade has Iron Heart and White Raven which is awesome no matter what you plan on doing. Good BAB, Fort save (rare on a TWF), and Str focus so you have better use of Power Attack (still less than 2-hander though). Your going to have issues taking later TWF feats because your pretty MAD. One good thing is Weapon Finesse may not be neccesary since your BAB is higher.

Both get access to Tiger Claw and thats the quintessial TWF school, so you have that going for them either way.

My 2 cp.

[kardar233]

Oh, I forgot about White Raven.

Ask your DM if the White Raven maneuvers that are "charge, with extra damage on charge attack" apply to all your charge attacks. If so, ignore my advice and go Pouncebarian/Warblade.

Otherwise, Swordsage is a good bet.

[Eldariel]

You generally multiclass. ToB classes multiclass well. For TWF, you want highish BAB so Warblade Core is generally preferred; both classes have access to Tiger Claw which is the most important discipline for TWF. Swordsage has Desert Wind too but you can generally make do without; and Iron Heart gives you convenient defensive abilities instead.

Generally I like Warblade/Swordsage 2/Warblade -> (with eventual Bloodclaw Master, at least 2-4 levels) Allows you to go Dex-focus with Shadow Blade and Stormguard Warrior, with benefits from either Wis or Int. If your stats are good enough, you can just go Str-focus with Bloodclaw Master (only problem here is that TWF requires so high Dex to pick the feats).

[NeoSeraphi]

What's the point of being Dex-focused when you have to spend MORE feats on it? The swordsage gets no bonus feats, already has low BAB, and is limited to what weapons he can fight with using both Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse (in addition to Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).

Meanwhile, a Str-based warblade needs only the TWF feats, which he can qualify for easily by putting his secondary ability score into Dexterity and getting a +4 item. He can wield a longsword in one hand and a shortsword in the other, or he can grab Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting and dual-wield scimitars for crit-fishing or dual-wield longswords for DPS.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's the thing about TWF:

If you don't have lots of damage bonuses, it's completely worthless.

Thus, you need something that adds bonus damage per swing. Like, say, sneak attack. Oh, Assassin's Stance says hello.

One-level dip in WhirlPounceBarian is okay, but not strictly necessary. It can be duplicated with Pouncing Strike maneuver, which is obtained right around the time you want it.

But the big thing is that most maneuvers are Standard Actions. You can't TWF very well when you're using Standard actions, because you need a Full Attack to get your iterative and off-hand attacks. So every round that you are using a Maneuver to attack with, you aren't using your entire TWF tree.

[sonofzeal]

Meanwhile, a Str-based warblade needs only the TWF feats, which he can qualify for easily by putting his secondary ability score into Dexterity and getting a +4 item. He can wield a longsword in one hand and a shortsword in the other, or he can grab Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting and dual-wield scimitars for crit-fishing or dual-wield longswords for DPS.
Oversized TWF is generally a trap, not worth the feat except in extreme cases. Dual weilding Scimitar/Kukri for crits is usually fine. Heck, Kukri/Kukri is passable.

OTWF nets you about 1 extra damage on every attack. It's strictly worse than Weapon Specialization.And that's terrible. (http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo8pseYKFX1qes81eo1_500.jpg)

[NeoSeraphi]

It's not completely worthless if you don't have bonus damage.

It's not as strong as two-handed fighting, but the optimal should not be considered the base balance point.

That said, if you have 22 Strength, you're adding +6 damage to your main-hand attack and +3 damage to your off-hand, at the cost of a -10% chance to hit, and every time you up your Strength that penalty becomes less and less of a factor.

Wielding two-weapons without bonus damage is still better than wielding a single weapon in one hand and nothing in your off-hand. At higher levels, you will deal more damage than a character who is sword-and-boarding, and definitely more than an archer.

In fact, Two-Weapon Fighting is only second to Two-Handed, so that's definitely not worthless, Shneekey.

Edit:
snip

Oh, my bad. You're absolutely right. (At my tables, we rule that taking OTWF lets you add full Strength to your off-hand attacks as well)

Still, without Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse (And OTWF) you're up two feats and 5 BAB. I still think a Strength-focused warblade would be much better than a Dex-focused swordsage (especially at earlier levels)

[Eldariel]

What's the point of being Dex-focused when you have to spend MORE feats on it? The swordsage gets no bonus feats, already has low BAB, and is limited to what weapons he can fight with using both Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse (in addition to Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).

Meanwhile, a Str-based warblade needs only the TWF feats, which he can qualify for easily by putting his secondary ability score into Dexterity and getting a +4 item. He can wield a longsword in one hand and a shortsword in the other, or he can grab Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting and dual-wield scimitars for crit-fishing or dual-wield longswords for DPS.

What? You do realize TWF-line requires 15-19 Dex, right? It's not trivial to get 15-19 Dex and maximize Strength, especially if you need to get +4 Dex item by level 12 (that's a massive amount of your WBL). Not to mention, Shadow Blade gets you full Dex to damage on both hands while you only get half Str in your off-hand.

Oversized TWF is a bad feat. You can dual-wield Kukries just the same. Weapon damage dice are largely irrelevant; one feat to increase your offhand weapon damage die by average 1 damage is not worth it (you can already wield e.g. Scimitar + Kukri if crits are your thing). The only reason to Str TWF is using combat maneuvers, specifically Knock-Down, which requires 13 Int to boot.

But you need obscene stats to pull that off. I don't expect people to be able to go 18 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con with stats left for mentals. That just flies in the face of every point buy ever (those numbers alone are a 32pb and are the absolute minimum for sensible Str TWF, even still straining your gold resources a ton - optimally you want 18 Str 18 Dex to spare your WBL - and that's before we account for the 13-14 Int we want for Knock-Down and Warblade abilities and 10ish Wis, Cha).


Not to even mention, maxing Dex has other benefits like giving you inherently insane Initiative, and yes, you can get consistently high AC higher-up that way too (the Celestial Armor -> Bracers path gives you high AC and decent Touch AC without a massive investment).

Basically, the reason you go Shadow Blade is because 10 18 14 with good mentals is a more realistic stat array than 18 16 14 with good mentals. Yeah, it's a feat investment, who cares? And yeah, Swordsages have medium BAB but that's fine. First level gives you free Weapon Focus so for the first 4 levels you are equal in terms of composite attack bonus. And that's all you need in the Warblade/Swordsage 2 build.

Yes, Bloodclaw Master adds full Str to damage on some weapons. That's the way you wanna go if you have the stats to pull of Str TWF (tho note, by RAW you don't lose Str to damage with Shadow Blade!). Generally Kukris; Blood in the Water is massively powerful with a large number of attacks.

[sonofzeal]

Oh, my bad. You're absolutely right. (At my tables, we rule that taking OTWF lets you add full Strength to your off-hand attacks as well)
Ah, that would help a little.

The other case is where you have a particularly good medium weapon. For a Dwarf who gets free Dwarven Waraxe Proficiency, it makes slightly more sense; the drop from Waraxe to handaxe is just painful. And I've seen Khopeshi listed as 1d8/19-20/x3 one-handed weapons, making them very attractive for critmonkeys and worth blowing OTWF to get two of if you have the spare feat.

[NeoSeraphi]

What? You do realize TWF-line requires 15-19 Dex, right? It's not trivial to get 15-19 Dex and maximize Strength, especially if you need to get +4 Dex item by level 12 (that's a massive amount of your WBL). Not to mention, Shadow Blade gets you full Dex to damage on both hands while you only get half Str in your off-hand.


Shadow Blade locks you into Shadow Hand stances. So you can't use any of the decent Tiger Claw stances, and of course the White Raven tactical stances are nice as well.

And yeah, it's pretty trivial to get 19 in a stat by level 12 (the earliest you can qualify for GTWF)

Besides, as Shneekey noted, most martial maneuvers are standard actions. So if you're focusing on martial adepts and you only get Two-Weapon Fighting, then you only need 15 Dex.



Oversized TWF is a bad feat. You can dual-wield Kukries just the same. Weapon damage dice are largely irrelevant; one feat to increase your offhand weapon damage die by average 1 damage is not worth it (you can already wield e.g. Scimitar + Kukri if crits are your thing). The only reason to Str TWF is using combat maneuvers, specifically Knock-Down, which requires 13 Int to boot.


You're right. I was misremembering the feat. But that's not the only reason to use a Strength-based build. You guys are acting like MAD warrior builds are so bad, and ignoring the fact that pretty much every melee character is at least dependent on all three physical stats.



But you need obscene stats to pull that off. I don't expect people to be able to go 18 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con with stats left for mentals. That just flies in the face of every point buy ever (those numbers alone are a 32pb and are the absolute minimum for sensible Str TWF, even still straining your gold resources a ton - optimally you want 18 Str 18 Dex to spare your WBL - and that's before we account for the 13-14 Int we want for Knock-Down and Warblade abilities and 10ish Wis, Cha).


Right. Because point buy is the only way to play a game.



Not to even mention, maxing Dex has other benefits like giving you inherently insane Initiative, and yes, you can get consistently high AC higher-up that way too (the Celestial Armor -> Bracers path gives you high AC and decent Touch AC without a massive investment).


And maxing Strength lets you not miss. Deal more damage. Meanwhile, maxing Dex only lets you do those things if you spend more feats on it, stay in a specific stance, and use specific weapons. (And are a swordsage, so losing Iron Heart and White Raven)



Basically, the reason you go Shadow Blade is because 10 18 14 with good mentals is a more realistic stat array than 18 16 14 with good mentals. Yeah, it's a feat investment, who cares? And yeah, Swordsages have medium BAB but that's fine. First level gives you free Weapon Focus so for the first 4 levels you are equal in terms of composite attack bonus. And that's all you need in the Warblade/Swordsage 2 build.


And the reason you don't go Shadow Blade is so you can use White Raven Tactics, Wolf Pack Tactics, Stance of Alacrity, or basically anything but Assassin's Stance!



Yes, Bloodclaw Master adds full Str to damage on some weapons. That's the way you wanna go if you have the stats to pull of Str TWF (tho note, by RAW you don't lose Str to damage with Shadow Blade!). Generally Kukris; Blood in the Water is massively powerful with a large number of attacks.

Blood in the Water? But that's...wait for it...not a Shadow Hand stance, so you can't use it with Shadow Blade!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's not completely worthless if you don't have bonus damage.

It's not as strong as two-handed fighting, but the optimal should not be considered the base balance point.

That said, if you have 22 Strength, you're adding +6 damage to your main-hand attack and +3 damage to your off-hand, at the cost of a -10% chance to hit, and every time you up your Strength that penalty becomes less and less of a factor.

Wielding two-weapons without bonus damage is still better than wielding a single weapon in one hand and nothing in your off-hand. At higher levels, you will deal more damage than a character who is sword-and-boarding, and definitely more than an archer.

In fact, Two-Weapon Fighting is only second to Two-Handed, so that's definitely not worthless, Shneekey.Ahem... let's do some math, shall we?

First off, your theoretical character has a Str of 22 and a Dex of 19... how, precisely, do you plan on doing this? Str and Dex boosting gear, I assume? Let's say you start out with a Str of 16, and a Dex of 15, then put two points (level 4 and level 8) into Str. That gives you a base Str of 18, and Dex of 15. So you've got a +4 Str and a +4 Dex item. That's 16k EACH. For a total of 32k. That's over HALF your WBL right there.

Level 11 character has blown three of his five feats (not counting bonus feats either racial or from class) on TWF. That's a STEEP investment in feats.

Now then, to use all this, you need to be able to make a FULL ATTACK. Which means either a dip in PounceBarian, or you just epically FAIL because you just spent most of your feats and half your cash doing something you'll never actually be able to pull off (see also: Monk and why Flurry Sucks). So we'll be assuming, for your benefit, that your build can Pounce.

Now let's look at damage output comparison.

Your off-hand weapon is only dealing 1d6+3 damage, unless you want to screw over your attack bonuses, in which case it's 1d8+3. Unless you're crit-fishing with Kukri, in which case it's d4+3.

Your basic no-frills NO FEAT INVESTMENT... NPC class WARRIOR with the Str of 22 and a greatsword is doing 2d6+9

So... his ONE hit does more damage than BOTH your hits COMBINED, with NO feat investment, and BETTER accuracy, because you're not taking TWFing penalties. Once he takes Power Attack, a SINGLE feat investment, and puts the two points of BAB you're having as a penalty into his power attack, he's doing an extra 4 damage, for a total of 2d6+13. Well more than what you are doing. That's JUST Power Attack. No Leap Attack, no Shock Trooper, just one feat you can pick up at level 1.

So yes... TWF, without bonus damage, is a great huge HONKIN' TRAP and a WASTE of feats.

[Eldariel]

Shadow Blade locks you into Shadow Hand stances. So you can't use any of the decent Tiger Claw stances, and of course the White Raven tactical stances are nice as well.

You can't use 'em in combat. You can still use the non-combat ones.


And yeah, it's pretty trivial to get 19 in a stat by level 12 (the earliest you can qualify for GTWF)

Not without giving up e.g. your Strength or Constitution. Getting 15 on level 1 is even less trivial.


Besides, as Shneekey noted, most martial maneuvers are standard actions. So if you're focusing on martial adepts and you only get Two-Weapon Fighting, then you only need 15 Dex.

If you focus on standard action maneuvers, why are you TWF again? TWF means you focus on boosts and counters and use your standard attack run alongside Tiger Claw more.


You're right. I was misremembering the feat. But that's not the only reason to use a Strength-based build. You guys are acting like MAD warrior builds are so bad, and ignoring the fact that pretty much every melee character is at least dependent on all three physical stats.

Of course they are so bad. You can only maximize one stat. You can't afford +5 Tome and +6 item for every stat, let alone level up points. A MAD warrior will be behind on builds. Dex-focus can ignore Str. That's only two stats he needs. Str-focus needs all 3, though Dex less. Optimal Str-focus doesn't need Dex less but that's the 18/18 setup. If you can have that? Go for it. Otherwise, forget about it.


Right. Because point buy is the only way to play a game.

Rolled stats end with the same averages as point buy. It's not anything you can rely on anyways. Yeah, if you roll fine, it's good. Go for it. I've actually suggested it before. It's not something about 99% of the players will ever have a chance to try though.


And maxing Strength lets you not miss. Deal more damage. Meanwhile, maxing Dex only lets you do those things if you spend more feats on it, stay in a specific stance, and use specific weapons. (And are a swordsage, so losing Iron Heart and White Raven)

Who gives a ****? Seriously, what are you arguing here? I'm saying go Dex-focus with Warblade chassis. You're 1 BAB (made up for by +1 from Weapon Focus) behind. Two feats, sucks. At least you are a functional character that can be made outside magical christmas land stats. Feat tax sucks but that's how this edition works.


And the reason you don't go Shadow Blade is so you can use White Raven Tactics, Wolf Pack Tactics, Stance of Alacrity, or basically anything but Assassin's Stance!

Blood in the Water? But that's...wait for it...not a Shadow Hand stance, so you can't use it with Shadow Blade!

I know. I was bringing it up in context of Str TWF on how you run that build. That said, Shadow Hand has more stances than Assassin's. Might wanna take a look. Also, White Raven Tactics is not a stance. And stuff like Hunter's Sense, Hearing the Air, etc. is still a fair game for Shadow Blade users.

[NeoSeraphi]

Ahem... let's do some math, shall we?

First off, your theoretical character has a Str of 22 and a Dex of 19... how, precisely, do you plan on doing this? Str and Dex boosting gear, I assume? Let's say you start out with a Str of 16, and a Dex of 15, then put two points (level 4 and level 8) into Str. That gives you a base Str of 18, and Dex of 15. So you've got a +4 Str and a +4 Dex item. That's 16k EACH. For a total of 32k. That's over HALF your WBL right there.

Level 11 character has blown three of his five feats (not counting bonus feats either racial or from class) on TWF. That's a STEEP investment in feats.

Now then, to use all this, you need to be able to make a FULL ATTACK. Which means either a dip in PounceBarian, or you just epically FAIL because you just spent most of your feats and half your cash doing something you'll never actually be able to pull off (see also: Monk and why Flurry Sucks). So we'll be assuming, for your benefit, that your build can Pounce.

Now let's look at damage output comparison.

Your off-hand weapon is only dealing 1d6+3 damage, unless you want to screw over your attack bonuses, in which case it's 1d8+3. Unless you're crit-fishing with Kukri, in which case it's d4+3.

Your basic no-frills NO FEAT INVESTMENT... NPC class WARRIOR with the Str of 22 and a greatsword is doing 2d6+9

So... his ONE hit does more damage than BOTH your hits COMBINED, with NO feat investment, and BETTER accuracy, because you're not taking TWFing penalties.

So yes... TWF, without bonus damage, is a great huge HONKIN' TRAP and a WASTE of feats.

You could say the same thing about sword and board or einhander, just with fewer feats invested. (And archery is doing less damage, with just as many feats invested)

Just because it's not as good as two-weapon fighting and it consumes a majority of your feats doesn't make it worthless. Geez.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You could say the same thing about sword and board or einhander, just with fewer feats invested. (And archery is doing less damage, with just as many feats invested)Sword and Board actually gets a lot of love with Crusader and Ironsoul Forgemaster. They don't have the damage output, sure, but they get a LOT of ways of saying 'no'. And ways of defending allies as well, which means the opponents STILL have to deal with him.

Archery actually ends up doing more damage by accident, once you get a Compound bow. For less feat investment.

Einhander is another trap. But it's still better than TWF without bonus damage.


Just because it's not as good as two-weapon fighting and it consumes a majority of your feats doesn't make it worthless. Geez.

So consuming a majority of your feats to be the least effective fighting style is a good thing :smallconfused:

[NeoSeraphi]

Not without giving up e.g. your Strength or Constitution. Getting 15 on level 1 is even less trivial.


Depends. If you're a wood elf (+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Con, 0 LA) then you'll be fine.




If you focus on standard action maneuvers, why are you TWF again? TWF means you focus on boosts and counters and use your standard attack run alongside Tiger Claw more.


You're TWF because it's COOL. That's always been the draw of TWF. Multiple attacks, and flavor. It's always going to be subpar in terms of optimization anyway.



Of course they are so bad. You can only maximize one stat. You can't afford +5 Tome and +6 item for every stat, let alone level up points. A MAD warrior will be behind on builds. Dex-focus can ignore Str. That's only two stats he needs. Str-focus needs all 3, though Dex less. Optimal Str-focus doesn't need Dex less but that's the 18/18 setup. If you can have that? Go for it. Otherwise, forget about it.


Yeah, and meanwhile, a Str focused Warblade has d12 HD. Less Con dependency.




Who gives a ****? Seriously, what are you arguing here? I'm saying go Dex-focus with Warblade chassis. You're 1 BAB (made up for by +1 from Weapon Focus) behind. Two feats, sucks. At least you are a functional character that can be made outside magical christmas land stats. Feat tax sucks but that's how this edition works.


Please reread the Rules of Posting.



I know. I was bringing it up in context of Str TWF on how you run that build. That said, Shadow Hand has more stances than Assassin's. Might wanna take a look. Also, White Raven Tactics is not a stance. And stuff like Hunter's Sense, Hearing the Air, etc. is still a fair game for Shadow Blade users.

White Raven Tactics may not be a stance, but a Shadow Blade swordsage still doesn't get it. (Or any of the other amazing White Raven stances/maneuvers)

[NeoSeraphi]

So consuming a majority of your feats to be the least effective fighting style is a good thing :smallconfused:

I still don't see where you're getting "least effective". Archery in 3.5 is terrible.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I still don't see where you're getting "least effective". Archery in 3.5 is terrible.Okay, really? Did you miss the memo or something? This was fixed with Swift Hunter.

[NeoSeraphi]

Okay, really? Did you miss the memo or something? This was fixed with Swift Hunter.

A few extra dice of bonus damage doesn't help penetrate DR. (1d8 for a longbow +5d6 for a 20th level scout is an average of 22 damage per shot. Even DR 10 will cut that down to laughable). Though I admit Swift Hunter does help against enemies without DR. Still, it's a whole bunch of extra book-keeping with all the arrows you have to keep track of and buy.

Edit: Also, just to be clear, you're talking about:

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot (B), Manyshot (B), Improved Precise Shot (B), and Swift Hunter. So that's 3 feats and a lost point of BAB to deal around as much damage, and still reliant on damage dice rather than pure extra damage from Strength and Power Attack/Leap Attack/Supreme Power Attack/Spirited Charge, etc.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A few extra dice of bonus damage doesn't help penetrate DR. (1d8 for a longbow +5d6 for a 20th level scout is an average of 22 damage per shot. Even DR 10 will cut that down to laughable). Though I admit Swift Hunter does help against enemies without DR. Still, it's a whole bunch of extra book-keeping with all the arrows you have to keep track of and buy.

Mmmmkay, since it's obvious you aren't going to listen to math, I shall have to agree to disagree. After all, your TWF build couldn't even scratch a DR 10 opponent if he rolled max damage

[Eldariel]

Depends. If you're a wood elf (+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Con, 0 LA) then you'll be fine.

Yeah, and you have penalty to Con and Int on a Warblade. Doesn't really alleviate the MAD issue, though yes, it's generally the preferred Str TWF race.


You're TWF because it's COOL. That's always been the draw of TWF. Multiple attacks, and flavor. It's always going to be subpar in terms of optimization anyway.

The whole point of optimization is to make your concept the best it can be by the game rules. TWF can be included in a viable concept. But optimizing that concept does not involve going Strength-focus nor picking up Standard Action Strikes. You just don't use Standard Action Strikes (other than the obvious like Wolf Fang Strike, and few special ones for special circumstances like Emerald Razor or Avalanche of Blades). You focus on Boosts and Counters instead. The wonders of ToB; you get to choose your maneuvers to mesh with your style! Stormguard Warrior and Shadow Blade make TWF fairly good and have some unique advantages.


Yeah, and meanwhile, a Str focused Warblade has d12 HD. Less Con dependency.

Which is why you go Warblade X/Swordsage 2/Warblade +X. d12 HD for all but 2 levels. Still complete Dex-focus.


Please reread the Rules of Posting.

Please point out how I have breached any, because I fail to see it. I have not circumvented the filter. I have not attacked any person. I'm just frustrated by the fact that you basically go by "Warblade 20 vs. Swordsage 20" even though any combination is extremely viable in ToB due to the way ToB multiclassing functions (but "Who gives a ****?" still does not breach any board rules even though it does show the frustration). It's like you're arguing a point nobody is making instead of actually having dialogue with the other people participating in the discussion. This is not fruitful for a discussion.


White Raven Tactics may not be a stance, but a Shadow Blade swordsage still doesn't get it. (Or any of the other amazing White Raven stances/maneuvers)

Which is why you go Warblade X/Swordsage 2/Warblade X. White Raven Tactics, yay.

[Emperor Tippy]

...Wood Elf, really? The only time it makes sense to drop Con on a melee character is if you are maxing Int and taking FMI.

And TWF on a strength based build tends to suck. Considering that you don't TWF for the weapons base damage, being constrained to Shadow Hand weapons doesn't matter. Especially when virtually every useful stance for a TWF build is in Shadow Hand.

Good TWF builds focus on Dex.

Dark Grey Elf making use of FMI let's you dump everything but Dex and Int, grab a 3 level dip in Factotum and your skills won't suffer, you will pick up Int to saves, attack rolls, and damage rolls, Int to Initiative, and Int to all your Str and Dex skill checks.

Considering that the Wis to AC feature on a Swordsage really isn't needed and you shouldn't be using maneuvers that allow saves in the first place if you are TWF, you can dump that. Str is taken care of with Dex to attack and damage. Con is taken care of with Int to HP and saves. Charisma is Charisma, enough said.

[ranger557]

I notice a huge amount of replies and wow o.O. It was late and I didnt clarify what else I was going to include in this topic. Well, I do know the benefits from each class and I have notice you guys have done a great job stating a good amount of it. The one question I forgot to add was that, which class solo is better for TWF? Warblade or Swordsage?

However, since reading all your valid points about this already, is this a true statement to say that the warblade and swordsage are both powerful but when combined together it increases that power much more.

this is what I notice what the Swordsage and Warblade have going for them for TWF from this discussion.

Swordsage:
Pros: more manuevers, Dex to attack and dmg (two feats), more WBL (since only focusing on Dex), ability to use stances to help twf(ex. Assassins stance), Free weapons focus. Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, and Desert Wind (FTW)

Cons: two feats used for Dex to attack and dmg, d8, 3/4 BAB, and has to be in Shadow Hand stance to get that bonus from Dex.

Warblade:
Pros: Can focus Str more, more feats available, Stormguard Warrior, Benefits from the Bloodclaw PrC more, d12, full BAB, White Raven and Iron Heart (FTW)

Cons: has to waste more WBL for attributes to meet prereqs for feats, less manuevers, has to spread Stats evenly (hard to get amazing stats across the board), only half dmg to off hand weapon

So my thing is if Warblade/Swordsage is a better chassis for TWF, How would you give advice if somebody wants to go crit fisher? Dual Kurikis to be precise but sadly its not a Shadow Hand weapon? I would say you couldn't go dex because you would waste two feats to attack and do damage with Dex but can't because you can only use the SH weapons, so Str would have to be the answer, but of course thats going to give you cons too.

[FMArthur]

Since race is one of the factors being talked about, OTWF is mentioned and Dex-dependence has been presented as a problem, I might as well butt in with my favourite TWF solution: Diopsids.

Diopsids (Dragon Compendium) are a race that ignore any Dexterity requirement in any "Two-Weapon" feat (feats that mention TWF). Diopsids also happen to have two extra arms that are not strong enough to hold weapons on their own, but can be used to support their upper arms so that they can be considered to be wielding their weapons two-handedly with them. They don't get to ignore the massive penalties for TWFing weapons from the two-handed weaponry category, but if you take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting you can get all the two-handed benefits with two one-handed weapons while also getting the full benefits of regular TWF. They also wield weapons one size larger than normal, so... basically you're wielding one-handed weapons that will benefit from two-handed feats, two-weapon feats, and do equivalent damage to medium two-handers. No Dexterity required. I've used them as Warblades as a DM to good effect, using Tiger Claw and White Raven maneuvers mostly.

Diopsids have +1 level adjustment. Stat bonuses are -2 Dex, +2 Con and -2 Int IIRC. They're sort of beetle-like, and they get some nifty natural armor in exchange for only being able to wear light armor.

[Keld Denar]

Crit fishing with duel keen kukiris is actually kinda lackluster. Compare the damage you get from Blood in the Water to the damage you get from Punishing Stance. PS is +1d6 all the time, average 3.5. You have to crit 4 times in a combat just to catch up. Even with a 25% chance to crit threat per hit and 4 attacks per round, you need 4 rounds to catch up to the damage PS gives you, and another 3-4 rounds to catch up in total damage per round. That's 7-8 rounds of combat. Average combats last 5ish rounds tops.

Granted, BitW is static damage, and thus multiplies, its still not terribly efficient. And that's assuming your foes aren't immune to crits.

[Endarire]

Magic Item Compendium 105 has Gloves of the Balanced Hand. That's Two-Weapon Fighting (or Improved Weapon Fighting if you already have TWF) for 4000G. That's cheap!

[Snowbluff]

Magic Item Compendium 105 has Gloves of the Balanced Hand. That's Two-Weapon Fighting (or Improved Weapon Fighting if you already have TWF) for 4000G. That's cheap!

Agreed. Almost too awesome.

[Malachei]

I'd always want both.

The Warblade recovery mechanic is far superior to Swordsage even with Adaptive Style.

On the other hand, the Swordsage gets more maneuvers known and readied.

-> A combination is great. The Warblade maneuvers mostly used for strikes and boosts that are used often, the Swordsage maneuvers mostly for counters (the save-covering counters, especially).

Also, a single-classed Swordsage falls behind after level 6-7, IMO. Shadow Hand is a very front-loaded discipline. Of course, you want the Shadow Blade feat and Assassin's Stance, but afterwards, you're pretty much good to go.

Warblade 6, Swordsage 2, Warblade +X is a good approach, IMO, unless you want to include non-ToB classes at start to enter into Warblade with access to second-level maneuvers (which are good).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Shadow Hand is a very front-loaded discipline.

Not really. Bloodletting Strike (hey, it's a bit better than a maneuver one level lower, especially as an efficient way to take out guys with weak fortitude saves and not much focus on constitution) Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink, One With Shadow, Balance on the Sky.

Sure, it's not much, but you've got five other disciplines. You're not going to be loading up on maneuvers and stances from just one.

[Malachei]

Not really. Bloodletting Strike (hey, it's a bit better than a maneuver one level lower, especially as an efficient way to take out guys with weak fortitude saves and not much focus on constitution) Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink, One With Shadow, Balance on the Sky.

Sure, it's not much, but you've got five other disciplines. You're not going to be loading up on maneuvers and stances from just one.

I dislike especially the higher-level Shadow Hand maneuvers for allowing a save, and especially a Fort save, which is usually the worst to target.

Compare this to White Raven Hammer, which Stuns (NO Save). Much better choice.

Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink: Yes, if I could have all maneuvers. But compared to Shadow Jaunt, these are +3 levels and +5 levels.

An 8th level sky to give me air walk? No, Balance of the Sky, IMO, is not among the best Stances. Have the party wizard cast fly. You'll mostly be in Assassin's Stance anyway, during combat. At Balance of the Sky's level, I'd prefer Stance of Alacrity by far.

On the other hand, being Invisible at will (Cloak of Deception is a boost), and being able to Shadow Jaunt with two second level maneuvers is awesome.

That's what I mean by front-loaded.

Compared to the higher level maneuvers of Diamond Mind, Iron Heart or White Raven, the higher Shadow Hand maneuvers are weaker.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I dislike especially the higher-level Shadow Hand maneuvers for allowing a save, and especially a Fort save, which is usually the worst to target.

Compare this to White Raven Hammer, which Stuns (NO Save). Much better choice.

Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink: Yes, if I could have all maneuvers. But compared to Shadow Jaunt, these are +3 levels and +5 levels.

An 8th level sky to give me air walk? No, Balance of the Sky, IMO, is not among the best Stances. Have the party wizard cast fly. You'll mostly be in Assassin's Stance anyway, during combat. At Balance of the Sky's level, I'd prefer Stance of Alacrity by far.

On the other hand, being Invisible at will (Cloak of Deception is a boost), and being able to Shadow Jaunt with two second level maneuvers is awesome.

That's what I mean by front-loaded.

Compared to the higher level maneuvers of Diamond Mind, Iron Heart or White Raven, the higher Shadow Hand maneuvers are weaker.

Uh huh.

So relying on a party member makes a feature useless. Sure, Stance of Alacrity is better. Swordsages have Diamond Mind, and with multiclassing into warblade, you're delaying what level you get it at.

Allowing a fortitude save means it's automatically useless. You fight giants a lot or something?

Being higher level means it's useless, despite being better in combat. Shadow Blink + full attack, Shadow Stride + Shadow Blink + standard action strike.

[Snowbluff]

Mmmmkay, since it's obvious you aren't going to listen to math, I shall have to agree to disagree. After all, your TWF build couldn't even scratch a DR 10 opponent if he rolled max damage

^How people think until they do an Eternal Blade TWF. :smalltongue:

[Malachei]

Uh huh.

So relying on a party member makes a feature useless. Sure, Stance of Alacrity is better. Swordsages have Diamond Mind, and with multiclassing into warblade, you're delaying what level you get it at.

Allowing a fortitude save means it's automatically useless. You fight giants a lot or something?

Being higher level means it's useless, despite being better in combat. Shadow Blink + full attack, Shadow Stride + Shadow Blink + standard action strike.

Tome of Battle for Dummies (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=357.0) really helps.

Saves: You're fighting demons all day? Have a look here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869222/The_Wizards_Handbook&post_num=7#338306870) and do the math. The Swordsage's Bloodletting Strike is at DC 15 + Wis modifier. You're not a caster who is boosting his casting stat and thereby increasing DC. At 32-point-buy, you'll probably have a +1 or +2 Wis modifier. At 9th level, when you get this, you're not likely to have a lot of enhancement bonus on your Wis (this would be on your Dex).

Average Fort save of a standard CR 9 monster? Fort +11. Succeeds on a 5 or 6. Congratulations, you have just spent your highest-level maneuver on a 20-25% success chance. Higher monsters will have an easier time, of course.

Note Bloodletting Strike is also a Strike (not a boost as given in the table, text trumps table). At level 2, you get Drain Vitality for 2 Con damage (but also Save: negates). Even Enervating Shadow Stike (level 8!) is Fort: negates :smallmad:

I really like Shadow Hand for a lot of stuff, but not for this.

Other classes 4 + Swordsage dip 1 gives you Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, Action Before Thought and Moment of Perfect Mind, Counter Charge and Emerald Razor (if you can't pick that up via Warblade). That's a great add-on for a one-level investment. Other classes 6 + Swordsage dip 2 gives you Assassin's Stance, and your choice of a 3rd level maneuver on top.

Going Warblade gets you the absolutely superior recovery mechanic for the maneuvers you need most (i.e. those you'd love to use every other round) and then you're dipping Swordsage for some of the good maneuvers and 6+ additional maneuvers readied (but in a bad recovery mechanic, so you use it for counters and other stuff you're likely to use only once per encounter). Like other ToB classes, Swordsages are very dippable, and at the same time, Swordsage 20 is still a good build -- not as good as Warblade 20, however (the capstone being just one reason).

A Warblade can use the Diamond Mind maneuvers (for instance, Nightmare Blade, Greater Insightful Strike and eventually, Time Stands Still) every other round. Swordsage has to take a full-round action to recover. The action economy is what matters most, and voluntarily stepping out of a fight to recover your maneuvers is, IMO handing the initiative over to the bad guys.

At higher levels, the best maneuvers of a given level are often in other disciplines (Diamond Mind or Iron Heart, for instance). Shadow Hand's gems are at the lower levels.

It is front-loaded -- that's nothing bad, you can use it to your advantage.

[Eldariel]

Saves: You're fighting demons all day? Have a look here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869222/The_Wizards_Handbook&post_num=7#338306870) and do the math. The Swordsage's Bloodletting Strike is at DC 15 + Wis modifier. You're not a caster who is boosting his casting stat and thereby increasing DC. At 32-point-buy, you'll probably have a +1 or +2 Wis modifier. At 9th level, when you get this, you're not likely to have a lot of enhancement bonus on your Wis (this would be on your Dex).

Average Fort save of a standard CR 9 monster? Fort +11. Succeeds on a 5 or 6. Congratulations, you have just spent your highest-level maneuver on a 20-25% success chance. Higher monsters will have an easier time, of course.

To be fair, Wis-focused Swordsage is a thing. It involves Insightful Strikes class feature in e.g. Diamond Mind & Shadow Hand, and Intuitive Attack [BoED], and then you start with 18 Wis and go from there. But it works. Secondary Dex or Str; either can be added to damage directly.

[Malachei]

To be fair, Wis-focused Swordsage is a thing. It involves Insightful Strikes class feature in e.g. Diamond Mind & Shadow Hand, and Intuitive Attack [BoED], and then you start with 18 Wis and go from there. But it works. Secondary Dex or Str; either can be added to damage directly.

Sure. But >80% of the Swordsage builds, IMO, are Dex-based and have Wis as secondary or tertiary stat.

[Draz74]

I prefer Warblades with Stormguard Warrior for TWF. Shadow Blade is overrated.


One-level dip in WhirlPounceBarian is okay, but not strictly necessary. It can be duplicated with Pouncing Strike maneuver, which is obtained right around the time you want it.
While this is true -- and I approve of avoiding the cheesy PounceBarian -- Pouncing Charge can't be combined with other excellent charging maneuvers, such as Battle Leader's/War Leader's/War Master's Charge or Bounding Assault. The PounceBarian can do both at once.


But the big thing is that most maneuvers are Standard Actions. You can't TWF very well when you're using Standard actions, because you need a Full Attack to get your iterative and off-hand attacks. So every round that you are using a Maneuver to attack with, you aren't using your entire TWF tree.
So ... don't use those Standard Actions maneuvers. Seriously, there are plenty of good maneuvers that aren't Standard Action Strikes. (Plus Wolf Fang Strike, which lets you TWF a bit as a standard action.)


What? You do realize TWF-line requires 15-19 Dex, right?
Which is why I suggest just getting the base TWF feat, then ...


Magic Item Compendium 105 has Gloves of the Balanced Hand. That's Two-Weapon Fighting (or Improved Weapon Fighting if you already have TWF) for 4000G. That's cheap!

Seriously! Not only is this magic item ridiculously good, but ... well, ITWF and GTWF are crappy feats anyway. ("Hooray! You have an unoptimal amount of DEX, so you get a situational extra attack per round ... with a -5 or -10 penalty!")


Shadow Blade locks you into Shadow Hand stances. So you can't use any of the decent Tiger Claw stances, and of course the White Raven tactical stances are nice as well.
[snip]
Blood in the Water? But that's...wait for it...not a Shadow Hand stance, so you can't use it with Shadow Blade!
QFT.