[PF] Summoner build critique, please?

[Zaeron]

Hey guys,

So my third level ranger just died, horribly, in the final battle of our module. Level 5 rogue with an item that forces flat footed critted on me - instagibbed. So, I was faced with some major issues:

1) This is a wilderness adventure. Survival is a skill someone needs, and nobody else in the party has it at ALL.
2) I was a switch-hitter ranger, following Treantmonk's excellent guide, which meant I was generally a front line fighter. I put out a LOT of damage (2d6+9 generally, when powerattacking) with an excellent to hit. Our other characters aren't very optimized, or else are optimized but not to deal damage - and this module is VERY difficult. I'm concerned about party damage output.
3) Our other front line melee fighter doesn't always show (his work schedule is hectic), which means a lot of times it was just the rogue and my ranger in melee.

So based on those things, I need 3 things from my new character: Front line capability, survival as a class skill, and high damage output. I don't want to play a Barbarian or another Ranger, since I was essentially playing my Ranger a lot like a Barbarian (throwing axes and a two handed beatstick with power attack). So I narrowed it down to the following options:

1) Melee alchemist focused on strength/con and using mutagens for combat.
2) Druid focused on wild shape (we leveled to 4, so I'd be starting with wild shape, which helps a lot).
3) A summoner.

Based off that, I worked up the following summoner (note that I made a few minor non-optimized choices, such as the weapon choice for the Eidolon, mostly because I used a Greatsword last time and didn't want to use the exact same weapon).

Half-Elf Summoner, 4th Level, 18 point buy
Strength 7 (-2), Dexterity 12 (+1), Consitution 14 (+2)
Intelligence 12 (+1), Wisdom 10 (0), Charisma 20 (+5) [17 base, +2 human, +1 4th level]
HP 28, AC 15 (+4 Chain Shirt, +1 Dex)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +4

Skills / Ranks / Total Modifier
Spellcraft 4 = 11 (Half elf skill focus went here for crafting)
Use Magic Device 4 = 12 (Woo! Charisma. LOL.)
Bluff 1 = 6
Diplomacy 1 = 6
Perception 2 = 2

Feats:
1) Spell Focus: Conjuration
2) Craft: Wonderous Item

Favored Class Bonus: All 4 levels went to 1/4th evolution point per level, total of +1 evolution point.

Spells Known
Spells – Level One, 4 Known (DC16, 17 for Conjuration*) - 5/day
Grease*
Mage Armor (1hr/level)
Protection From Evil
Enlarge Person

Spells – Level Two, 2 Known (DC17, 18 for Conjuration*) - 2/day
Haste
Glitterdust*

My Eidolon
Strength 19 +4 / Dexterity 13 +1 / Con 13 +1
Int 7 -2 / Wis 10 / Cha 11

HP 18, AC 17[21] (4 natural armor base, +2 natural armor from evolutions, +1 dex, [mage armor +4])
Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +3

Class skills: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (Planes), Ride, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Survival, Acrobatics

Skills / Ranks = Total Modifier (skills with a * next to total modifier have the Skilled evolution applied)

Knowledge (Planes) / 1 = 2
Ride / 3 = 7
Perception / 3 = 14*
Stealth / 2 = 6
Survival / 1 = 12
Acrobatics / 1 = 12

Evolutions (8 points for evolutions, see: Half Elf favored class bonus)
Natural Armor +2
Reach
Ability Increase, Strength, +2
Skilled - Perception, Survival, Acrobatics

Feats:
1 - Exotic Weapon Prof: Earth Breaker
3 - Power Attack

Attack: Masterwork Earthbreaker, +8 Melee, Reach 10ft, 2d6+6 (+7, 2d6+9 w/ PA)
Fully Buffed (Haste, Enlarge Person): +10/+10 Melee, Reach 15ft, 2d6+9 (2d6+12 w/ PA)
Equipment: Has a Heavy Warhorse, for the black rider imagery! Can't ride the horse when buffed. :(

Comments on the build: First off, should I ditch my own ranks in perception, since this dude is a perception monster? Secondly, this build includes only about 800g worth of gear, in total. I'm not exactly sure what my WBL will be, but I know my first 3k gold goes to a Rod of Lesser Extend. What else should I get if I have more?

Second, I have two traits I haven't spent yet. Suggestions?

Third: Is crafting a bad idea? It means I have to take Skill Focus: Spellcraft instead of taking the alternative half-elf trait for +2 Will, which I reallllly wanted to take. On the other hand, craft wonderous item is amazing, and craft arms and armor will be helpful for my party and my eidolon. We're pretty far from any magic item shops, and the module treasure drops aren't always amazing. Is this worth the feats?

Fourth: General optimization commentary? Is this a bad build? I figure with a 40+ hit point pool between me and my eidolon, he's a pretty good front line fighter. Especially with his stupidly high AC. (21 will put him highest in the party by a solid margin, and at 5 I can take another level of natural armor). Are the extra evolution points worth it from half-elf, or should I go human for the feat, the extra skill ranks, and the always nice +1hp favored bonus for my eidolon instead? It kind of seems like the evo points are better, since I could just spend 2 of them on +2 CON for the eidolon and instantly have basically as many hp as 15 levels of favored class, PLUS 3 more to play with.

Finally: Will this build fall off as I level? We all see this campaign going for a while, and this guy doesn't seem as likely to die as my ranger was. I don't want to end up playing a useless guy at level 12, just because my party needed me at level 4.

Last question: Is there any way to pick up bluff/diplomacy as class skills? It seems a shame not to have them when my CHA is so high.

Thanks in advance guys. Sorry, I know this was a lot to wade through lol.

[stack]

Traits can get you diplomacy (maybe bluff, not sure) as a class skill. Ease of Faith, I believe, or Speaker of Erastil.

Earthbreaker is a martial, not an exotic weapon.

Extra evolution may be better than spell focus conjuration. How often do you plan on using spells that allow saves?

Looks like you want to build a slugger eidolon. You could take weapon prof with evolution points, but if you are set on a slugger the feat is fine. Extra points can always buy utility stuff (scent, skilled, etc) or buff natural attacks (whatever is cheap as they will be secondary). Extra attacks, even at -5 to hit, can't hurt.

Crafting is campaign/party dependent, so no comment here.

[Zaeron]

There's an Extra Evolution feat? Is it core/third party? I didn't notice it in the Summoner's Handbook or in the SRD. Spell Focus: Conjuration is a pre-req for Augment Summoning (+4str/con to all my non-Eidolon summons, including my 8 per day standard action summon monsters), which I was planning on taking at either 5 or 7, depending on if I craft or not.

Are there any other really good traits? My ranger just had ones that gave +1 Fort and +1 Will, is that about the power level of most traits? :)

2 Evo points for weapon prof seemed steep, a feat seemed less expensive for what I got.

[stack]

Extra evolution (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-evolution) from Ultimate magic. 1st party.

The only issue with augment summoning is that it only helps when your Eidolon is away. For a master summoner, it is obviously great (hence they get it automatically at 2). How often will your eidolon be gone when you need him and cannot call him with the summon eidolon spell? (Note: augment summons does effect the eidolon when called with the spell)

Side note: consider summon eidolon in place of glitterdust.

On that note, a wand of rejuvenate eidolon may be a good idea, depending on party composition.

There are a variety of eidolon feats that the summoner can take. Resilient eidolon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/resilient-eidolon) will keep it around if your character is unconscious or asleep (though half-elves are immune to sleep, so that is a bit less likely, still nice if you get dropped in to the negatives).

As far as traits, they are great for getting class skills. Some of the caster ones are interesting, but I don't know of many that really buff a summoner.

Also, take my advice with a grain of salt. I've mostly build master summoners and synthesists (rather the extremes), which tend to use different builds for their different focuses.

[Zaeron]

Thanks. I just went through the UM Feats, there's some good stuff there.

I guess my save DCs are high enough already with a 20 CHA, Spell Focus: Conjuration probably isn't worth it, in favor of something like Extra Evolution. I'll probably start with Resilient Eidolon though, since it seems like things could go to **** real fast if the party tank goes poof when the caster goes down.

Thanks for the tips!

P.S. the master summoner was amazing, but I decided my turns would take too long. The Synthesist I didn't like just because he didn't get his own skill pool.

Double edit: One last question. You said 'set on slugger' - I know there are a lot of builds out there, but my big concern was not having enough ways to bypass DR. Is a quadruped pouncer better?

[imneuromancer]

I have a party of similar composition:
Witch
Summoner w/ Melee Eidelon
"Jeckyl and Hyde" alchemist
Sorcerer

Yes, all arcane, but somehow it works really well to have the alchemist and Eidelon front-lining, the summoner summoning in powerful allies, and then the sorcerer and witch doing their thing (they generally team up to make the witches' hexes work).

[Curious]

I have a party of similar composition:
Witch
Summoner w/ Melee Eidelon
"Jeckyl and Hyde" alchemist
Sorcerer

Yes, all arcane, but somehow it works really well to have the alchemist and Eidelon front-lining, the summoner summoning in powerful allies, and then the sorcerer and witch doing their thing (they generally team up to make the witches' hexes work).

You realize that the Summoners summon monster SLA's don't work when the Eidolon is summoned, right?
WAY too many 'summoneds' in one sentence.

[panaikhan]

I'm having a lot of fun with my quadruped Synthesist.
The way the evolutions are worded, the Grab/Rake combo is definately worth having (the chance of two extra attacks on each successful grab).
The only downside is DR. Had some pretty hairy combats that involved DR monsters, but having almost 100HP at 5th level isn't to be sneezed at.

[DiBastet]

I'm sorry if I'm sidetracking OP, but when you told about wilderness game, and need for damage output on the front lines, so rogue wouldn't be alone because fighter is not always there, first thing I though was "Barbarian?".

[Zaeron]

Yeah. The big problem with a Barbarian is I just played a two hander charging power attacking ranger. I think they'd feel like the exact same character.

I AM open to alternative suggestions though!

[togapika]

For damage output, I prefer the shiva-style of eidelon, take the multiattack feat, lots of arms, and use some sort of light weapon in each hand...

[Gecks]

I don't know enough about summoner opt to comment, but you did mention your campaign uses traits, and I thought it might be worth mentioning that the "poverty-stricken" trait grants survival as a class skill, which was one of your requirements for a new character in general, just FYI if you wanted to go in a different direction entirely. It is also good for a +1 trait bonus to the skill, so even if you already have survival as a class skill, it might be worth grabbing if you are playing the go-to survivalist in the party.

[imneuromancer]

You realize that the Summoners summon monster SLA's don't work when the Eidolon is summoned, right?
WAY too many 'summoneds' in one sentence.

Yep, but there is an option in one of the books (Ultimate Magic?) that allows for the summoner to have summons AND an Eidolon, but the Eidolon is as of a summoner of 4 levels lower (IIRC). The GM allowed the Boon Companion feat to apply to the Eidolon (www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion).

Not EXACTLY RAW because boon companion is only for familiars and animal companions, but it actually works out pretty well in balance and feels very "Rules as Intended". Base classes that come after various rulebooks are out always suffer from the wording of feats being weird for them.....

Also, I think it works because it fills the gap so that our group didn't need a Fighter or something, we could all be arcane-ish. If we had a large group with a lot of fighter types it may be different.

[DiBastet]

Yeah. The big problem with a Barbarian is I just played a two hander charging power attacking ranger. I think they'd feel like the exact same character.

I AM open to alternative suggestions though!

Perfectly reasonable. It seems a good time to try a Dragoon.

[Zaeron]

Yep, but there is an option in one of the books (Ultimate Magic?) that allows for the summoner to have summons AND an Eidolon, but the Eidolon is as of a summoner of 4 levels lower (IIRC). The GM allowed the Boon Companion feat to apply to the Eidolon (www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion).

Not EXACTLY RAW because boon companion is only for familiars and animal companions, but it actually works out pretty well in balance and feels very "Rules as Intended". Base classes that come after various rulebooks are out always suffer from the wording of feats being weird for them.....

Also, I think it works because it fills the gap so that our group didn't need a Fighter or something, we could all be arcane-ish. If we had a large group with a lot of fighter types it may be different.

That feature only progresses your Eidolon at 1/2 your levels, and I really don't think those feats would be allowed to work since 4 levels of eidolon is a much larger increase in power than 4 levels of animal companion. Basically, your DM gave you an absolutely insane power boost. =P Mine is highly unlikely to do that.

[imneuromancer]

That feature only progresses your Eidolon at 1/2 your levels, and I really don't think those feats would be allowed to work since 4 levels of eidolon is a much larger increase in power than 4 levels of animal companion. Basically, your DM gave you an absolutely insane power boost. =P Mine is highly unlikely to do that.

Yes, it is more powerful than normal, and I don't think it would work in a "normal" group, or one that is optimizing a lot. But for our group it works pretty well because we really don't have a front-line fighter. So it fills the role that the Leadership feat would do for filling "role gaps" in the party.

Further, it turns out that it maybe saves a couple of high-level slots per day for the summoner. First round, use SLA to summon in stuff, next round, cast spells. So on the board at any one time are the summoner's Eidolon and their summons from the SLA, and the summoner is off doing other things.

I am sure that if the summoner did the "have monsters attack, re-summon new monsters to attack" thing every round, it would get out of hand. But they don't, so it all works.

[imneuromancer]

Also, just reading the Summoner's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592). We have been using the rules that SLAs use the same casting time as the original spell, because that is what the SLA description says. Is that not correct?

From the SRD: "Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise."

Wouldn't the fact that Summon Monster is a full-round cast make the SLA a full-round cast?

[Wagadodo]

Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level).

Taken from teh SRD from Paizo.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/baseClasses/summoner.html

The special ability stats it is a standard action versus full round action. So length of time the summons are out and the how long it actually takes to cast it.