PDA

View Full Version : Dealing with Cheating Players



Othesemo
2011-11-23, 04:53 PM
I suppose that it was inevitable, but one of my players has cheated for the first time. We play at my house, and I had to leave for about fifteen minutes, during which he agreed to look at D&D stuff on my computer (he doesn't have as many books as I do, so he does that a lot). The next day, I noticed that one of the messages in my spam folder (on Gmail) was marked 'read.' I checked, and it contained several D&D documents that were saved on my email, and was sent by 'me' to him about five minutes after I left the house. It's pretty obvious that he sent them, given the time frame and the content of the emails. It's also pretty obvious that he realized that he was cheating, given that he tried to cover his tracks by reporting it as spam.

So, I talked to him yesterday and he claims to have no idea how that email was sent. Thus, I am torn. On the one hand, nothing that he sent himself was overly important- a few homebrew spells that were intended as a surprise in a boss fight, and the equipment of one of the antagonists (which I can easily update). In addition, our group's already a bit small, and he's a friend of both myself and one of the other players, so kicking him out could be damaging both to the game and to personal relationships. On the other, I can't really have any guarantee that he won't try to cheat again, especially if I just ignore the incident and he gets away for free. And I really don't want to have to deal with anybody cheating.

So, does anybody have any advice with how to deal with him?

The Reverend
2011-11-23, 05:04 PM
Give it all to him in game, make sure its all cursed.


Otherwise give the entire group the teacher style speech

•Im not naming any names, you know who u r and what you did
•we are all adults
•This is just a game
•Cheating in a pretend world with no stakes or payoff is especially sad
•Your punishment will be this 5 minute kazoo and harmonica song I have prepared. Proceed with playing kazoo and harmonica for 5 min 45 seconds
•Im very disappointed in you

mrzomby
2011-11-23, 05:05 PM
1. change any information that he got from the email

A
2. make an adventure where he gets hit by some "dark uber soul magic" and the rest of the party have to save him, or something like that.

3. when he isn't there, discuss it with the rest of the group "X player cheated, what do we want to do about it? do you wanna stop playing with X, keep going? Punish him, or Ignore it?"

Alternatively,
B
2. get every player who isn't X to hang out with you 1 day, and discuss it like above.

SamBurke
2011-11-23, 05:08 PM
•Cheating in a pretend world with no stakes or payoff is especially sad
•Your punishment will be this 5 minute kazoo and harmonica song I have prepared. Proceed with playing kazoo and harmonica for 5 min 45 seconds


This. Tell him that in game and out of game, whilst his character is debilitated (by the cheated magic items?), he must listen to X, where X is either: the My Little Pony theme song, "It's a Small World," Nyan Cat, or some other equally heinous piece of work. No MLP if he's a brony, though.

You should ask him why he cheated, or if he can offer proof that he didn't. Were there other players in the room? Did they look over his shoulder? Did you check browser history?

Othesemo
2011-11-23, 05:19 PM
Here're the logistics of it- at the time the email was sent, he was one of two people at the house. The other was on her laptop, though, so she didn't see anything. Although I lack eyewitness evidence, I personally find it unlikely that somebody else hacked my account exactly as I left the house, and then sent an email to some random guy on my contact list, with two random attachments, and then reported it as spam.

I didn't actually check the browser history, but that's a good idea. I just did, and it basically went

3:20 PM Gmail - Inbox - [email protected]
3:19 PM Gmail - Sent Mail - [email protected]
3:19 PM Selniss' Spells - Google Docs
3:18 PM Gmail - Inbox - [email protected]
3:18 PM biochem project.docx - Google Docs
3:18 PM Untitled document - Google Docs
3:17 PM Untitled document - Google Docs
3:17 PM Untitled document - Google Docs
3:17 PM Eln'Mastak's Equipment
3:13 PM Selniss - Google Docs
3:12 PM Google Docs

So I think that I can say pretty definitely that yes, he cheated. It would also seem that he looked at a lot more stuff than he sent himself, so I'll probably have to change that too.

SamBurke
2011-11-23, 05:21 PM
Well, then, you're going to have to bring that up, and ask him why he did it AND why he didn't tell you.

Mystic Muse
2011-11-23, 05:37 PM
I'd say something like "I'm not naming names, but somebody here has been cheating. I'd like to remind you guys that the point of the game is to have fun guys, not to win. Especially since, if I find out, I can just change things around. So, by cheating, all you're doing is attempting to win at something you can't win at, and making it more work for me."

Steward
2011-11-23, 06:09 PM
First thing you have to do is nail down your proof. Right now, you have a strong circumstantial case but it's not rock-solid yet. I recommend going home right now and bagging / tagging the keyboard in question until you can get it to the lab to dust for prints. Next, get a subpoena for his ISP -- ask for the recs for the time following the email but before your next game to make sure that he actually opened the email and downloaded the attachment ahead of time. And just to shore things up, interview everyone else who was in the house at the time; you don't want him to hurl around some half-baked accusations because you didn't do your homework.


•Your punishment will be this 5 minute kazoo and harmonica song I have prepared. Proceed with playing kazoo and harmonica for 5 min 45 seconds

Don't do this. If you hand out a 5-minute kazoo/harmonica punishment, stick to 5 minutes, not 5 minutes and 45 seconds.

nedz
2011-11-23, 06:22 PM
You could just ignore it, after all he's spoiling his own fun.

Or you could set him up. You have a fair idea about what he knows, or might know. He doesn't know that you know this. So change something that he might use to his advantage, so that it is a major disadvantage. If you like, you can make sure that he knows later, but thats optional.

This sort of behaviour isn't inevitable BTW.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-23, 06:27 PM
Punish him in game and have something bad happen to his character. Rust monster, ability score damage, spell book goes missing.

RandomNPC
2011-11-23, 06:36 PM
Boil the player in oil. His character becomes a bad guy.

Tell him you know he was on the computer, you know what files he peeked at, and you know what he sent himself. Then explain how easy it is to change your game, and tell him he's kicked out for not fessing up to it.

killem2
2011-11-23, 06:51 PM
Looking at files is one thing, access YOUR gmail is NOT cool.

DrBurr
2011-11-23, 07:04 PM
Seeing as your worried about your player count and don't want to kick him out of your group for reading your emails and campaign notes I would suggest a couple of things

1) Don't punish his character in game, and by this i mean don't kill his character, change its alignment or penalize him with levels or gold. This is probably only cause more problems and get him angry at you and cause a fight, and when trying to solve a problem getting in a fight with a player isn't going to help
2) Don't give a giant speech about cheating to the group, he is still going to believe he didn't cheat or deny it and the group will be annoyed their game time has been cut short. Simply say at the beginning of your next session, someone has been reading your notes and inform the group how your going to have to rewrite some plot now
3) Ask the other player who was their at the time what happened, perhaps she has some info
4) Confront the player in question, tell them you know they did it and to cut the crap, then ask them why and hear what they have to say
5) If the player refuses to admit that they did it, never let them use your computer. Especially if you aren't there

Mono Vertigo
2011-11-23, 07:16 PM
Most importantly, ask what they were trying to achieve by cheating... in a game with no real win/lose condition. And why it is so important for him to give himself an unfair advantage. Pay attention to his justifications or excuses, in case there's a bigger reason behind the problem than "I did it because I could and I thought I'd get away with it", but don't forgive him and act like nothing happened.

Othesemo
2011-11-23, 07:21 PM
3) Ask the other player who was their at the time what happened, perhaps she has some info

Did that a few hours ago. She confirmed that he was on the computer for all of the time, but didn't look at what he was doing.


4) Confront the player in question, tell them you know they did it and to cut the crap, then ask them why and hear what they have to say

I'll probably do this. I'm a bit curious about why he'd do this, since it's basically a no-win scenario for him. Either I don't find out, in which case the rest of the campaign plot is ruined for him, or I do in which case he's completely screwed.


5) If the player refuses to admit that they did it, never let them use your computer. Especially if you aren't there

Yeah, I'll be doing that whether or not he admits it, seeing as I know he did it. Of course, if he doesn't admit it, then I may decide to kick him out anyways. It's an inconvenience, but it doesn't make him invulnerable. Besides, if he doesn't admit it even after I show him what proof I have, then my trust for him is just about shot. I'm not going to play with somebody I can't even trust to act in their own best interest.

KillianHawkeye
2011-11-23, 07:23 PM
Looking at files is one thing, access YOUR gmail is NOT cool.

This. This is the reason computers come with a guest account. If you don't see one when you login to your OS, then you need to enable it. No stored passwords = no access to gmail and google docs. BAM.

You might also try to find a way to protect or obscure your gaming files themselves if you have anything offline like text files or the like.

NikitaDarkstar
2011-11-23, 10:56 PM
Cheating is one thing. I mean if you had the files sitting on your desktop and then let the guy use your computer, yhea I could have said you should have seen it coming. But the guy went into YOUR email account, read YOUR mail and proceeded to forward some of it to himself? That's not cheating, that's violating your right to privacy. That's something that wouldn't just get you kicked out of a game with me, it would mean we wouldn't be talking again, ever. (Or at least until you have an extremely good explanation and excuse.)

Cheating, yhea it happens (I'm willing to bet most people have rerolled a nat 1 at least once when no one else was looking.. ). Violating the DM's privacy when he's kind enough to let you use his computer in his home? Unacceptable. Worse if he's a long-term friend.

As for punishment if you for some ungodly reason do want to keep this person around? Take away his character, make him re-roll, one or several levels under everyone else. (But really I wouldn't.)

ILM
2011-11-24, 03:43 AM
I can't get over how pointless it is to look at a DM's notes for the coming sessions, nor how terminally stupid it is to mark the email you sent as spam to cover your tracks rather than just delete it. I don't say this as categorically often, but your friend's just dumb.

Personally, I'd let him have it. Tell the group that since he looked at your notes and sent some over to him by e-mail behind your back, you now have to redesigne the campaing from that point on. It's going to take a few weeks. Gaming suspended until you're done. :smallannoyed:

DiBastet
2011-11-24, 08:19 AM
"Kick the player! There is no reason to keep him around! None at all! It does not matter that you gave your reasons! Kick it!!!"

Or

"Ditch the DM! There is no reason to keep playing! None at all! It does not matter that you gave your reasons! Ditch it!!!"


It's just me or even when the op says that he has reasons to not do any, these "advices" always come up?

Tell you the truth, op, once I had a player that ALWAYS cheated something on his character sheet. From week to week something was off, like +1 to a stat that there was'n there before, +2 ou +3 hit points, you know, the kind of stuff you can't really keep up. Skill points, feats, bonuses to attack and such you can keep up doing some check up ("hey man, your attack is too high, there are +2 hat doesn't exist"), but this, more hp than what he rolled and more stats are stealthier. Fortunately I had his original rolls with me. In one adventure I had all his stealthy gains removed, and I showed it all to the other players.

(it began it a +2 to his Cha, the dumpstat, then +4. Jus wanted to be pretty. Then +1 to Wis, other dumpstat. then he turned greedy, +2 to his Dex and Str, his main stats, then +4 to Dex)

They were pissed (it was the kind of "we are friends and a team, but we compete on damage and kills" kind of group), so it was enough, because he wasn't cheating "me", he was cheating on "their competition" they said.

Other time around the players always tried to peek at my notes when I was away. It was funny for that group, and we developed a more players vs dm attitude.


Short awser: It depends on the dynamics of your group. You said in the first post that you can't kick this player because he is a friend and a communal friend. In this case I would just put the "sorry, I can't trust you" mask and tell him you did put this mask. Treat him like always, as a friend, but when issue of trust comes, you tell "I like you, have no problem with you, but as I told before, I cannot trust you anymore".

In the end this sounds a little like "you took away your own freedom", and this usually works if he's not actively disruptive / passive-agressive...

Knaight
2011-11-24, 09:07 AM
Cheating is one thing. I mean if you had the files sitting on your desktop and then let the guy use your computer, yhea I could have said you should have seen it coming. But the guy went into YOUR email account, read YOUR mail and proceeded to forward some of it to himself? That's not cheating, that's violating your right to privacy. That's something that wouldn't just get you kicked out of a game with me, it would mean we wouldn't be talking again, ever. (Or at least until you have an extremely good explanation and excuse.)

Cheating, yhea it happens (I'm willing to bet most people have rerolled a nat 1 at least once when no one else was looking.. ). Violating the DM's privacy when he's kind enough to let you use his computer in his home? Unacceptable. Worse if he's a long-term friend.

As for punishment if you for some ungodly reason do want to keep this person around? Take away his character, make him re-roll, one or several levels under everyone else. (But really I wouldn't.)

This. The cheating is largely irrelevant, the problem here is that the guy accessed your email without permission. Rifling through other people's physical mailboxes is a pretty serious crime in most places, and with good reason - it isn't as if doing the same to email is any better. Forget about the game, cut contact with this guy entirely. I wouldn't go so far as to report this to the police, but this is the sort of thing that should end a friendship.

Oh, and for that matter, you mentioned this in your history: "3:18 PM biochem project.docx - Google Docs". As such, you can probably assume that plagiarism is an issue as well, and if both you and he turn in the same papers, the both of you could get kicked out of school. This person isn't your friend - friends don't rifle through eachother's personal letters and get eachother kicked out of school.

KillianHawkeye
2011-11-24, 09:19 AM
Violating the DM's privacy when he's kind enough to let you use his computer in his home? Unacceptable. Worse if he's a long-term friend.

The worst part is that this is entirely preventable if people would just do the utmost basics of computer security, such as setting up the guest account I mentioned earlier.

I know it's somebody that the OP trusted, but the point is that you shouldn't trust anybody with your sensitive computer informations when it's so easy to protect them.

I have an external hard drive with built-in password protection that automatically locks itself whenever I restart my computer or put it into sleep mode, and my Windows login also requires a seperate password. Without my passwords, the average person cannot access my private files or any of my stored Internet passwords for the various sites I visit (bank, school, student loan websites, giantitp forums, etc.).

ILM
2011-11-24, 09:52 AM
The worst part is that this is entirely preventable if people would just do the utmost basics of computer security, such as setting up the guest account I mentioned earlier.
No, the worst part is that you would actually need that to ward off friends from snooping around. I don't know about you guys, but my friends simply don't pull that kind of crap. And if they did, they'd instantly go from 'friend' to 'get out of my home'.

Knaight
2011-11-24, 10:02 AM
No, the worst part is that you would actually need that to ward off friends from snooping around. I don't know about you guys, but my friends simply don't pull that kind of crap. And if they did, they'd instantly go from 'friend' to 'get out of my home'.

Exactly. Friends are, by definition, people you trust. And while that doesn't necessarily mean giving out passwords willy nilly, (though it can very well include shared account passwords or similar), it really doesn't have to mean having high computer security at all times either. Giving your social security number or PIN out casually to friends is pretty dumb, but a full automated computer lock could well be described as paranoid, and with some substance to that claim.

Jay R
2011-11-24, 01:50 PM
... I had to leave for about fifteen minutes, during which he agreed to look at D&D stuff on my computer (he doesn't have as many books as I do, so he does that a lot).

Interesting. Why not, "He doesn't have as many books as I do, so he looks at my books a lot"?

If somebody cheated like that in my game, and then admitted it when I called him on it, we could probably work something out. But he lied about it later. This isn't an isolated case of cheating, it's a pattern of dishonesty, including looking at your email and your biology project.

Therefore you need to consider how long he's been doing it, since he has accessed your computer in the past. Has he been solving puzzles or finding things more easily than you expected? Made really good guesses about which choice to make?

If somebody lied to me that way in my game, he would be out of the game, instantly, even if that meant the game had to end. If he was enough of a friend that I could overlook going through my private files, I would simply stop the game.

But I mostly play with adults, assumed to be completely responsible for their actions. How old is he? That could make a huge difference in what you do.

One possibility is to announce that somebody has looked at the files for this scenario, and therefore it cannot be completed. Another party has just completed the quest and gotten all the treasure and XP. Then either start working on another one, or let somebody else be the DM.

And whatever else you do, nobody should be allowed to use your computer again. He now has to buy his own books if he wants to consult them

Othesemo
2011-11-24, 02:23 PM
Interesting. Why not, "He doesn't have as many books as I do, so he looks at my books a lot"?

Somebody stole my D&D books (I only had about ten in those days) a few years ago. Since then, I've scanned every hardcover book I've gotten to my computer so that they can't be stolen again. Paranoid, yes, but it works. It only takes a few hours per book, and it makes accessing them much easier in the future. By now, half of the hard copies are destroyed (dogs), but I can still access them. Three hours is worth not having to go out and buy replacements every month.


If somebody cheated like that in my game, and then admitted it when I called him on it, we could probably work something out. But he lied about it later. This isn't an isolated case of cheating, it's a pattern of dishonesty, including looking at your email and your biology project.

Funny. When I originally brought the matter up, he denied any knowledge of it. However, he admitted to looking at the files over email yesterday evening, and apologized both profusely and repeatedly. Of course, there are several issues. Apart from in being very unlike him to apologize so much, he claims to have been looking for a spell that the BBEG cast earlier in the game. He had no reason to suspect that it was homebrew, or that it would be in my google docs. When I asked him about it, he said that he went to my google docs first "because it seemed more private than your desktop." He admits looking at Eln'Mastak's equipment, as well as Selniss' spells, but he denies looking at any of the other documents which he obviously did. Finally, he denies sending the email to himself, which is obviously bull. My current assumption is that he's lying to get me to be lighter on him- he really wants to keep playing, I think.

Also, I'm not too worried about the biochem project. We have different teachers, though I do wonder why he decided to open it.

The Mormegil
2011-11-24, 05:04 PM
Also, I'm not too worried about the biochem project. We have different teachers, though I do wonder why he decided to open it.

To check if you hid relevant info under a misleading name. Or misclick.

UrsielHauke
2011-11-24, 06:43 PM
I'd say something like "I'm not naming names, but somebody here has been cheating. I'd like to remind you guys that the point of the game is to have fun guys, not to win. Especially since, if I find out, I can just change things around. So, by cheating, all you're doing is attempting to win at something you can't win at, and making it more work for me."

Especially considering that you can't really "win" D&D. When one of my players is cheating in a manner such as tipping die rolls or the like, I call them on it right then and there. An issue such as this, however, is a little bit more touchy. I know it's already been said, but again, I would suggest you talk to the rest of the people in your gaming group and reach an agreement about what should be done. Just my suggestion.

Xyk
2011-11-24, 07:02 PM
Okay, here's what you do. Go to his place of residence in the middle of the night while he's sleeping. Sneak into his bedroom and stab him until he dies. That will teach him and anyone who hears about it not to cheat at your table. That kind of bad sportsmanship is just unacceptable.

Premier
2011-11-24, 07:13 PM
Now, jokes aside:

This isn't a case of him accidentally peeking at the DM's map you've put on the table and failing to resist the temptation. This is a case of him lying to you to get to your computer, completely deliberately looking at your private notes for the game, emailing them to himself, then consciously trying to cover his tracks.

If he has committed this breach of trust, he'll also commit any other breach of trust that occurs to him. The only thing to do is kick him out of your group for good.

Zeru the Dark
2011-11-24, 08:09 PM
Yeah, I'd kick him out of this game, and tell him that you are considering whether or not you will game with him in the future. If he decides to own up, once this current game is done, I'd consider letting him into any other games you run, but he can't have access to your computer again and needs to find his own books. If he doesn't own up, don't let him join up again, period. Regardless, he shouldn't be allowed to take part in this game; looking at a DM's information is a serious offense, and looking at another person's private information is worse.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2011-11-24, 08:24 PM
Kick him out.

Going through your email is a no-go. The other stuff is just extra.

VanBuren
2011-11-24, 09:36 PM
Give him access to everything he would have gotten, but as a cursed version. Then, have an NPC drop hints that he needs to go on a quest to purify those things...

...then when he does, reveal that they were originally all very wicked and terrible things, and that they were "tainted" by a cleric attempted to bless them, with the "pure" versions being even worse.

Then drop a house on him.

Soniku
2011-11-24, 11:47 PM
I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to first time cheaters. I know I ended up cheating once or twise (for kinda douchey reasons - claiming to have failed a roll so that a player I hated would lose some stuff...) but, people will change if you make sure to poke them right. How you do it is really a matter of what works best - Take them aside and tell them straight, reveal that they cheated to the rest of the group and see what they think (since they are the ones who will be most affected by his dishonesty, and a little shaming can go a long way) or make sure that the information he gleaned will lead him into trouble (antagonist weak to fire? Change it so they repel flames back at the attacker).

Don't make it too harsh, friends slip up. But if he continues with this behavior that's a different matter.

Vella_Malachite
2011-11-25, 02:08 AM
I'll admit that I would probably have a bad reaction to people going through my e-mail on my computer, simply because it's, y'know, *my email*, but if it's not feasible to kick him out, it's not feasible to kick him out.

I would say that punishing the player is a bad move; it's only likely to foster bad feeling and cause a larger argument and falling out later. I'd also be wary of doing something that might be construed as passive-aggressive; telling the whole group that their game is delayed because *somebody* cheated is only going to make him resentful.

Restricting access to your files in future is a good idea, I think, and taking steps to ensure he can't do that again, especially if it does inconvenience him slightly; this will let him know that he's stepped out of line. Also, tell him you're rewriting parts of the campaign due to what he saw, so that he knows you know, but won't get resentful if you change things around so his player dies without warning him.

Ultimately, I think aiming to keep things civil is a good idea; an argument, especially an extended argument, between two friends can really throw off the entire group. Don't let him go without any punishment or retribution, I guess is what I'm saying, but try not to let what you do affect the game or the other people.

KillianHawkeye
2011-11-25, 02:58 AM
Exactly. Friends are, by definition, people you trust. And while that doesn't necessarily mean giving out passwords willy nilly, (though it can very well include shared account passwords or similar), it really doesn't have to mean having high computer security at all times either. Giving your social security number or PIN out casually to friends is pretty dumb, but a full automated computer lock could well be described as paranoid, and with some substance to that claim.

What you consider paranoid, I consider common sense.

It's like getting mad when somebody reads your diary, when your diary has a lock which you left open.

ILM
2011-11-25, 03:51 AM
It's like getting mad when somebody reads your diary, when your diary has a lock which you left open.
Or getting mad when people break into your home and steal everything, when you didn't take the basic precaution of walling up all the windows.

There's a fair difference between not locking your diary and leaving it on the dining table with a "Read me" post-it on it. I'd like my friends to know the difference.

PetterTomBos
2011-11-25, 04:53 AM
I expect people I trust to not snoop around. To extremize it: even if I laid my diary on the dining table, open, I would be mad if they read it. When you understand what it is you quit reading. Anything else is a violation of my trust, and it will make me angry or sad depending. "You left it there" is no excuse.

Keeping the booked locked down, in adamantium covers, beneath a metric ton of concrete in my own room, which is floating in the etheral plane etc. etc.? That's just precautions to make sure people I don't trust will not get it, and to avoid accidents with the ones I do trust.

KillianHawkeye
2011-11-25, 10:36 AM
Or getting mad when people break into your home and steal everything, when you didn't take the basic precaution of walling up all the windows.

There's a fair difference between not locking your diary and leaving it on the dining table with a "Read me" post-it on it. I'd like my friends to know the difference.

My point was not the trust issue, rather the ease of which trust stops being an issue.

QuidEst
2011-11-25, 12:07 PM
In-character punishment is not a very good approach… there's a certain level of trust that a DM is given to not abuse their position.

Having the campaign spoiled is your friend's problem. They can make it other people's problem, of course, but if you explain to them that there will be consequences for taking advantage of player knowledge (and maybe make a few minor changes as well), then you can probably deal with this without blowing it into a big conflict.

Tytalus
2011-11-25, 12:55 PM
In-character punishment is not a very good approach… there's a certain level of trust that a DM is given to not abuse their position.

Exactly. I can't believe people are actually suggesting that.

He should be kicked out of the game, IMHO. This is a serious breach of trust.

QuidEst
2011-11-25, 02:37 PM
Exactly. I can't believe people are actually suggesting that.

He should be kicked out of the game, IMHO. This is a serious breach of trust.
Hmm. I'm more inclined to give somebody like that a second chance, but avoid providing opportunities to make the same mistake. Unless the player isn't adding anything to the game, in which case this is acting as a reasonable excuse.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-11-25, 03:17 PM
(1) Never Try to Solve Out-Of-Game Problems With In-Game Solutions
Under no circumstances should you ever try to deal with something like a cheating Player by abusing your power as a GM. It taints the GM-Player aesthetic and is unlikely to actually fix anything.

(2) Every Dog Gets One Bite
Tell him that you're hurt that he both tried to cheat at his game and lied about it; if you suspect he's cheated again, he's out of the game.

It could have just been a poor decision on his part -- giving into an impulse at a bad time. If he's otherwise your friend, I'd give him his one bite and see if maybe your warning scares him straight. If he decides to cheat again, then he has fair warning and should be kicked from your game.

VanBuren
2011-11-25, 05:32 PM
What you consider paranoid, I consider common sense.

It's like getting mad when somebody reads your diary, when your diary has a lock which you left open.


My point was not the trust issue, rather the ease of which trust stops being an issue.

It's largely irrelevant. That not every conceivable precaution was taken to protect the information does not mean that the breach of trust was any less of a violation.

KillianHawkeye
2011-11-25, 06:06 PM
It's largely irrelevant. That not every conceivable precaution was taken to protect the information does not mean that the breach of trust was any less of a violation.

I never said it was.

I'm just trying to help people protect their computer files. Why don't you think that is a good idea? :smallconfused:

VanBuren
2011-11-25, 06:31 PM
I never said it was.

Your first post made it sound like the blame should have been on the OP for not protecting his files, rather than on the actual perp.


I'm just trying to help people protect their computer files. Why don't you think that is a good idea? :smallconfused:

Please show me where I said that.

KillianHawkeye
2011-11-26, 05:49 AM
Your first post made it sound like the blame should have been on the OP for not protecting his files, rather than on the actual perp.

In which part of my first post was any blame being mentioned?

This. This is the reason computers come with a guest account. If you don't see one when you login to your OS, then you need to enable it. No stored passwords = no access to gmail and google docs. BAM.

You might also try to find a way to protect or obscure your gaming files themselves if you have anything offline like text files or the like.

I am simply trying to help the OP or others in his situation avoid this occurence in the future with some simple steps they can use to protect their sensitive data. My advice has nothing to do with the breach of trust issue, which IS an issue, albeit a seperate one. I guess I'm just trying to say that you shouldn't trust anyone you don't have to. Trusting people is all well and good, but NOBODY is 100% trustworthy.



btw...


I'm just trying to help people protect their computer files. Why don't you think that is a good idea? :smallconfused:

Please show me where I said that.

Right here:



My point was not the trust issue, rather the ease of which trust stops being an issue.

It's largely irrelevant.

If you believe basic computer security to be irrelevant to the situation, that pretty much means you don't think my advocating such is a good idea.



Regardless of all the back and forth, I agree that it sucks when a friend breaks your trust. A lot of people have already given some great advice on that front. I hope somebody out there appreciates my attempt to help stop this kind of thing from happening in the future.

/peace out

Jay R
2011-11-26, 10:27 AM
1. If you give an in-game punishment or reaction, then you've made cheating part of the game. Don't ever do this. If you do, the actual message you sent was, "This is no different from any other game action. Sometimes it doesn't work, and you get hit back."

2. Go back over the course of the last several sessions. Does it appear that he has done better than you expected at figuring things out? He's been looking at your computer for awhile; you can't assume that this was the first time he looked at your files.

3. If I were the DM, the game would be over, and I would give as the reason that the DM files have been seen by others, so the game can't continue. Note that this is not punishment for an action, ("You cheated so I will take action against you") but the logical consequence of a fact (The files have been seen so the game cannot run).

4. I would also institute a strict policy of no access to my computer in the future. He can buy any book he wants continual access to, but my suspicion is that this isn't the first time he's done it, merely the first time you caught him. Note his effusive apologies ("very unlike him to apologize so much"), more than would be expected for a single incident.

VanBuren
2011-11-26, 03:42 PM
In which part of my first post was any blame being mentioned?

Perhaps I misread your tone, but generally speaking I have encountered phrases that begin "It's like being mad when..." to carry the general meaning of "you don't have a right to be mad because it's your own fault."


If you believe basic computer security to be irrelevant to the situation, that pretty much means you don't think my advocating such is a good idea.

Not at all.

KillianHawkeye
2011-11-26, 09:03 PM
Perhaps I misread your tone, but generally speaking I have encountered phrases that begin "It's like being mad when..." to carry the general meaning of "you don't have a right to be mad because it's your own fault."

He has every right to be mad, but in my opinion getting mad about something you could have prevented is not useful. Just take it as a life lesson and don't make the same mistake next time.

The fact is that while the OP's friend is mostly to blame for breaking the trust of their friendship, the OP himself is also slightly to blame for extending that trust in the first place. As I already said, NOBODY is 100% trustworthy. Every time you trust somebody, you take a risk. Obviously it seemed like an acceptable risk at the time.

No event happens in isolation. I feel it's important for everyone to recognize their own part in an event like this so that they can learn from their mistakes. If we put the blame entirely on the OP's friend without admitting the OP's own mistake, then how is the OP going to learn from this?

And, personally, when I am just as mad at myself, it's hard to stay mad at someone else. I don't enjoy being mad, and I don't suppose the OP does either. That's why my main purpose in this thread has been preventing future situations rather than addressing the emotional conflict of the current situation.

molten_dragon
2011-11-27, 06:06 AM
I would handle it like this.

1. Change the password for your Gmail account.
2. Confront the player in front of the rest of the group. Tell him that you know he cheated, and explain how he did it. Make sure to point out that you are certain this happened, and are not interested in hearing excuses from him.
3. Tell him that you're willing to let bygones be bygones once, but if anything like it ever happens again, he'll no longer be welcome in the group.
4. Furthermore, tell him that he's lost all use of your computer from here on out.

Hopefully embarrassing him by pointing it out in front of the whole group will be more effective than confronting him in public.

big teej
2011-11-27, 03:08 PM
without going into an only slightly hyperbole filled rant.


if this is "just a player" I'd kick him in a heartbeat over this affront.


if this is "an important player" I'd inform them that if they manage to screw up in the slightest from this point forward, they are so gone it's not even funny.


granted my life is on my laptop, and it is my little sanctum.

it is also irreplaceable in my current situation. so anybody screwing with my laptop is just begging for very terrible things.

so I probably come down on the harsher side of things, but hey, ye don't abuse the trust of your friends.

not to mention my stance on "if you're not mature enough to avoid cheating at a simple game such as dnd, you're not mature enough to be hanging around me"

Balain
2011-11-27, 04:39 PM
I didn't read every response so sorry if anyone else said this.

I think you have two issues. The fact that he cheated and the fact they he may have gone through personal files on your computer.

As for the first part cheating. If he wants to cheat that's his problem, as long as he doesn't effect other players fun just let it go. If what ever he does cheating wise affects the others than bring it up.

When we roleplay (especially D&D ) one friend cheats here and there little bits. Like he fudges dice rolls now and then. and they know the current campaign I didn't have a lot of time to work on it so I used some of the published adventures and made some changes here and there to fit my story idea. So this friend went and bought all the adventures. He's loss to not being surprised, it doesn't affect anyone else so I let it slide.

The second part about going through your documents without your permission is more of a problem to me. Doesn't matter what they were for. That I would say talk to him about say you don't appreciate that, that you would never dream of going through other peoples stuff with out permission you would like the same courtesy.

Unless you don't care about that.

DoctorGlock
2011-11-27, 05:05 PM
It's been said, but he violated your privacy, he went through your mail, and if you are in the United States, that's a federal crime. That's the real issue, not the cheating. Boot him, boot him hard and fast, then when he comes to it will be on your private island where you can hunt him at your leisure. Then you will feel better.

Rixx
2011-11-27, 06:36 PM
At the very least, just change how the stuff he saw works.

Droodle
2011-11-28, 02:41 AM
If there is anything he saw that would be exploitable only if he knew about it beforehand, leading him to employ a tactic that would only be taken with prior knowledge, make some tweaks to ensure such tactics backfire utterly. Make subtle but barely perceptible alterations to spell selection, tactics and terrain that make actually acting on anything he read suicidal. When he acts on that knowledge and ends up in a no-win situation, don't say a darn thing about it to him -- he'll figure out what you did, and he'll know why you did it. If he doesn't act on any of his foreknowledge, then you should probably let the issue slide.

That said, you should probably start locking your computer (or at least encrypt your game files) when you aren't in the room.

Jay R
2011-11-28, 07:17 AM
At the very least, just change how the stuff he saw works.

This only works on the assumption that he was caught the first time he tried it, and therefore the DM knows everything he saw. I see no evidence for this. He's been looking at the computer for awhile "to look at D&D stuff". I suspect that this is not the first time he looked at DM files, just the first time he accidentally hit "spam" instead of "delete".

I would end the game, because the game files have been seen. Not because somebody cheated, but because the files have been seen. I don't want to place myself in the position of determining "punishment" for a friend, but the game as written can no longer run.

missmvicious
2011-11-28, 11:41 AM
Cheating and D&D seem to go together like peanut butter and jelly, for some reason. Even when we try not to cheat, it sometimes just... happens.

But your friend, who obviously cheated on purpose, isn't actually gaining any kind of upper hand, because there's no upper hand to reach in D&D. It's not like, in the end, there will be a final score and a trophy to be handed out. I honestly can't figure out why he'd go to this length to cheat.

However, since he did, he's only killed his own fun and hasn't really harmed the progression of the game. You don't really need to retool your game because of this. In fact, doing so creates a meta-game of cat-and-mouse that will only just exacerbate the problem. Instead, let him have his win, but make note of any meta-gaming he does regarding the info he stole from you. Each time he meta-games based on ill-gotten knowledge, dock his PC 50 XP/Level. It's a slap on the wrist, but it will encourage him to at least play his PC true to character and gimp his ability to use his out-of-game knowledge which will improve the overall gaming experience.

I penalized a player for meta-gaming once and no one has done it since... especially not the PC who took the hit, and I only docked 50 XP total. Doing this would be a great way for you to turn lemons into lemonade.

The real crime here is that he invaded your privacy, disregarding respect to personal space. He had no business poking through your personal files and, especially, e-mailing them. Personally, this is the point where I'd be flying off the handle. He'd get a permanent ban from my computer. No discussion. If I had to walk away from sight of my computer for any length of time while he was in my home, I'd password protect it or turn on the iSight (I have a Mac) and start recording to see if he touched my computer again. Any further transgressions would result in serious issues with our friendship because it would show that he doesn't respect me as a person. That's just my 2 CP on the subject...

Caylus
2011-11-28, 12:04 PM
He has every right to be mad, but in my opinion getting mad about something you could have prevented is not useful. Just take it as a life lesson and don't make the same mistake next time.

The fact is that while the OP's friend is mostly to blame for breaking the trust of their friendship, the OP himself is also slightly to blame for extending that trust in the first place. As I already said, NOBODY is 100% trustworthy. Every time you trust somebody, you take a risk. Obviously it seemed like an acceptable risk at the time.

No event happens in isolation. I feel it's important for everyone to recognize their own part in an event like this so that they can learn from their mistakes. If we put the blame entirely on the OP's friend without admitting the OP's own mistake, then how is the OP going to learn from this?

Sorry, I just can't bring myself to agree with this. You say that if your girlfriend was cheating on you, you would accept it that it was also partially your fault for not keeping 24 hours surveillance on her?



And, personally, when I am just as mad at myself, it's hard to stay mad at someone else. I don't enjoy being mad, and I don't suppose the OP does either. That's why my main purpose in this thread has been preventing future situations rather than addressing the emotional conflict of the current situation.

This I can agree with, and your main purpose is a very good one.
I think he should indeed take steps to prevent future situations like this, but if you can't trust your friends, I think you should call them "accomplices" or something, and refrain from using the word "friend".

endgame
2011-11-28, 12:27 PM
Slap them if they are in front of you, if not just deny to play with them.:smallannoyed:

pendell
2011-11-28, 01:45 PM
I would confront him privately, not in front of the group, and I would explain quite forthrightly that this is not cool. I would ask me to give me his word of honor that it doesn't happen again. If it does, we bring it before the group. The group then acts as jury. If we can't collectively find a way to make this work, he's gone.

It goes without saying that those parts of the adventure which are compromised will be revised to minimize the loss of compromise. If this can be done without ruining the game for everyone, it will be. If his character has become so overpowered that he's broken the game, the character will disappear into the Phantom Zone for the duration of the campaign and the character will have to play a substitute, non-broken character.

After the campaign is over, rescuing the original character from whatever plane he's been shifted to is our adventure hook for the next campaign. :)

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Delwugor
2011-11-28, 04:03 PM
First off forget about the gaming aspects of his actions. They are completely overshadowed by the fact that he took advantage of your trust as a friend.

How old is this person? Because of the biochem project I would assume anywhere from 16-20. If this is correct then as a father of 2 teenage boys let me assure you teenagers screw up, bigtime and often it is with stupid ilconcieved things. Covering it up by partially admitting but lying about the fulness is also typical as teenagers attempt to avoid the worst of the consequences.

FWIW, I see you having 2 options:
First drop him quickly as an untrustworthy person. He's not a friend but someone who breaks trust, invades privacy, cheats and lies. IMO this is the easy option as it gets rid of the problem quickly and after a while is just a bad memory and/or story.
Second and much more difficult. Inform him exactly how you feel about his actions, your anger and disappointment in him and the difficulty this has put you through. But that people do screw up and one incident does not mean he is a bad person or even a bad friend. Make it clear that his actions call into question your respect and trust in him which needs to be restored.

No matter what protect you email and personal information much better.

GungHo
2011-11-28, 05:07 PM
But the guy went into YOUR email account, read YOUR mail and proceeded to forward some of it to himself? That's not cheating, that's violating your right to privacy. That's something that wouldn't just get you kicked out of a game with me, it would mean we wouldn't be talking again, ever.
Yeah, it's unacceptable. Put down my beer, get out of my house.

If you have had a long relationship with this person, it may be harder to cut ties, so I understand if there's hesitance to do so... but you have to make it very clear that in no way is that behavior acceptable and that he's put his relationship with you in peril. It's more than fudging a dice roll or two or replacing a number on a stat sheet.


No, the worst part is that you would actually need that to ward off friends from snooping around. I don't know about you guys, but my friends simply don't pull that kind of crap. And if they did, they'd instantly go from 'friend' to 'get out of my home'.
Seriously... I am happy to let my friends use my computer.

There's an unwritten man/woman understanding between us all. If you go snooping around in various links or folders on someone's machine, not only will we likely know it (all but one of us are highly-computer literate, either having a job in electronics, programming, IT auditing and, for one us, forensic computing... the remaining one is a big goof that wouldn't even know how to break onto a computer so he's safe), but we've all stated that there's a good chance that you'll run into a revealing photo of someone, their spouse, their SO, or their life partner or learn something about their more sinister habits, and we aren't a handsome group of people, so browser beware. Look up what you need to look up and preserve your sanity. We'll know what you did. All we have to do is watch you not be able to make eye contact with any of us.

Magesmiley
2011-11-28, 05:08 PM
Well... to start with I'd deal with his knowledge of upcoming stuff just like I would any player who I suspected of reading a published adventure that I was running. I'd change things in a manner that if they got greedy and started using that knowledge, it would cost them. Items might have some horrible curse attached to them for example.

Alter the things in random ways: flip a coin to see if you should change something or leave it the same. This will drive people with improperly obtained knowledge nuts as they think its all different or the same, and can't detect a pattern.

Another thing that I do when I suspect people of fudging dice rolls... they get to use a set of oversized dice that people can see from all over the table for a few sessions. If he's willing to stoop so low as to copy your GM notes, its a safe bet that he's fudging his dice rolls too. Get a set and stipulate that he gets to use them for all of his dice rolls for some number of sessions.

The trust issue with him having access to your stuff is a harder issue, and one that will take time to work out. Its really up to him to prove that he can be trusted now.

KillianHawkeye
2011-11-28, 06:18 PM
Sorry, I just can't bring myself to agree with this. You say that if your girlfriend was cheating on you, you would accept it that it was also partially your fault for not keeping 24 hours surveillance on her?

I am saying that you'd have been involved in the events up until that point, yes. You are not a passive element in this situation. The hypothetical girlfriend is clearly in the wrong, but both parties are factors to some degree. Your girlfriend is not some unstoppable force acting around you upon whom you have no input. For example, maybe she did it because you were completely ignoring her. She's still in the wrong, but you should recognize that you have made a mistake as well.

FatJose
2011-11-28, 08:26 PM
I am saying that you'd have been involved in the events up until that point, yes. You are not a passive element in this situation. The hypothetical girlfriend is clearly in the wrong, but both parties are factors to some degree. Your girlfriend is not some unstoppable force acting around you upon whom you have no input. For example, maybe she did it because you were completely ignoring her. She's still in the wrong, but you should recognize that you have made a mistake as well.

That's a pretty sad viewpoint. :smallfrown:

VanBuren
2011-11-28, 09:46 PM
He has every right to be mad, but in my opinion getting mad about something you could have prevented is not useful. Just take it as a life lesson and don't make the same mistake next time.

The fact is that while the OP's friend is mostly to blame for breaking the trust of their friendship, the OP himself is also slightly to blame for extending that trust in the first place. As I already said, NOBODY is 100% trustworthy. Every time you trust somebody, you take a risk. Obviously it seemed like an acceptable risk at the time.

No event happens in isolation. I feel it's important for everyone to recognize their own part in an event like this so that they can learn from their mistakes. If we put the blame entirely on the OP's friend without admitting the OP's own mistake, then how is the OP going to learn from this?

And, personally, when I am just as mad at myself, it's hard to stay mad at someone else. I don't enjoy being mad, and I don't suppose the OP does either. That's why my main purpose in this thread has been preventing future situations rather than addressing the emotional conflict of the current situation.

I suppose it's a philosophical difference, then. Everyone has control over their own actions. The OP may have left himself vulnerable, but that doesn't lessen any of what the perpetrator did. To assign any blame to the victim is to lessen the blame on the perp, which justifies ever so slightly.

At no point did the perpetrator have less than 100% control over whether or not to violate the OP's privacy. Therefore, the blame for that violation is 100% on his "friend".

I also don't subscribe to your presupposition that nobody is 100% trustworthy, but I don't imagine that's an argument that's going to go anywhere for ether of us.


I am saying that you'd have been involved in the events up until that point, yes. You are not a passive element in this situation. The hypothetical girlfriend is clearly in the wrong, but both parties are factors to some degree. Your girlfriend is not some unstoppable force acting around you upon whom you have no input. For example, maybe she did it because you were completely ignoring her. She's still in the wrong, but you should recognize that you have made a mistake as well.

Assuming that you are, in fact, at fault in some way. Those are, incidentally, two separate actions. While cause-and-effect might be involved in some way, at no point did you lock her in to the action she chose. You are responsible for the choices you make, and she is responsible for the choices she made.

Caylus
2011-11-29, 05:04 AM
I am saying that you'd have been involved in the events up until that point, yes. You are not a passive element in this situation. The hypothetical girlfriend is clearly in the wrong, but both parties are factors to some degree. Your girlfriend is not some unstoppable force acting around you upon whom you have no input. For example, maybe she did it because you were completely ignoring her. She's still in the wrong, but you should recognize that you have made a mistake as well.

So, extending this line of reasoning further, when somebody would go out onto the street, and flip a coin whenever someone comes by, and when it's tails, he grabs a gun, and kills him, someone is still to blame for getting shot? The victim could have stayed at home, avoiding potential gunmen? Or better, he could have paid more taxes, so the police is better equipped, and madmen like that are faster found and captured!

I would indeed have made a mistake: Choosing a <gal> that didn't have the decency to break up with me before she <walks> around.

KillianHawkeye
2011-11-29, 07:09 PM
I don't want to get lost on a tangent of hypothetical situations.

In any of those situations, the person could have done something differently. The point is if you don't recognize the mistakes you make, you won't learn from them.

Jornophelanthas
2011-11-30, 07:13 AM
It is one thing to be paranoid enough to maintain a baseline assumption that everyone in the world (except oneself, of course!) is a clinical sociopath. That is a matter of personal choice (or perhaps personal brain chemistry).

It is another thing entirely to prescribe this state of mind as common sense. Because that is not a matter of personal choice, but rather a moral claim about the nature of humanity. To be precise, a moral claim that is not sound, substantiated or uncontroversial enough to simply be accepted at face value.

Heliomance
2011-11-30, 10:13 AM
I would confront him privately, not in front of the group, and I would explain quite forthrightly that this is not cool. I would ask me to give me his word of honor that it doesn't happen again. If it does, we bring it before the group. The group then acts as jury. If we can't collectively find a way to make this work, he's gone.


This seems like the only sane response so far. If someone did that to me, my response would be along the lines of "dude, not cool." I'd tell them off for it, make sure to lock my computer in future, and that would be the end of it. I don't see this as something to end a friendship over. Just give them a smack upside the head and let it be done.

If it's a recurring problem, then that is at least somewhat your fault. After all, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-30, 10:22 AM
I don't want to get lost on a tangent of hypothetical situations.

In any of those situations, the person could have done something differently. The point is if you don't recognize the mistakes you make, you won't learn from them.

Letting someone borrow your computer is not a mistake. It is a reasonable choice based on a level of trust. I will happily let anyone in any of my groups use my laptop. It is assumed that, as adults, they will not go prying through my personal things. Likewise, when playing at my house, I do not lock other rooms to prevent people from rooting through the house snooping. That's socially unacceptable behavior, and I shouldn't HAVE to explicitly prevent it from people I call friends.

Yes, learning from mistakes is a good thing, but the blame still lies with the person who clearly overstepped the bounds of propriety. No blame lies with the person who was merely trusting.

Edit: I'd talk with the person in private, as you have apparently already done. If he copped to it and apologized, It'd be over, though I'd no longer loan him my computer as a pragmatic measure. If he denied it/lied about scope, then I'd likely just kick him out. And, as someone very technically competent, I'd know *exactly* what he did on my computer, so denial is pretty unlikely to get anyone anywhere.

Knaight
2011-11-30, 10:30 AM
Letting someone borrow your computer is not a mistake. It is a reasonable choice based on a level of trust. I will happily let anyone in any of my groups use my laptop. It is assumed that, as adults, they will not go prying through my personal things. Likewise, when playing at my house, I do not lock other rooms to prevent people from rooting through the house snooping. That's socially unacceptable behavior, and I shouldn't HAVE to explicitly prevent it from people I call friends.

This is not a matter of adulthood. If you are 7 years old, you should know better than to pry through someone else's personal mail. I can say that it is assumes, as an eight year old, that someone in a group won't be stealing information with a side of plagiarism.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-30, 10:46 AM
This is not a matter of adulthood. If you are 7 years old, you should know better than to pry through someone else's personal mail. I can say that it is assumes, as an eight year old, that someone in a group won't be stealing information with a side of plagiarism.

Granted, it's a lesson that should be learned much, much earlier. Everyone I play with happens to be an adult, so there would be significantly less reason for them to have missed such a vital thing.

That said, it has happened before. We no longer play with the people involved for that and other reasons. I find a tendency to cheat also tends to accompany other poor behavior.