Beholder Mage of Mystra

[Anthrowhale]

This is about character optimization. Given the various infinite loop builds and the large number of known simple tricks, the goal here is not just making a strong character by RAW, but rather RAI*, where RAI* means something like "rules as intended in isolation" and always disallowing infinite loops.

I'm using wealth-by-level, no dragon magazines, and no cross-setting optimizations.

The character (let's call her Bemstra) starts as a human lawful good woman from Rashemen Archivist with attributes (32 point buy) Str 8, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 13, Chr 13, with patron deity Mystra.

During L3, corruption in the church is discovered, and Bemstra takes a level in Church inquisitor.

At L4, Bemstra becomes a member of Paragnostic Assembly so that at L5 she can become a paragnostic initiate and acquire Manifest Ethos.

During L5, Bemstra becomes friendly with some elves after helping them out, qualifying for Ruathar at L6.

For L7 Bemstra comes home to Rashemen and starts advancing as a Hathran. At L9 she picks up Initiate of Mystra and at L11 can cast AM field. She uses AM-field + circle magic + AM casting from Initiate of Mystra in fighting several beholders, bringing back one alive to face justice. The beholder is sentenced to death, because it's unrepentant and might break out of any jail. She begs mercy for the beholder, buys a very expensive powerstone of True Mindswitch and swaps bodies with it.

For L12, Bemstra pokes out the central eye and experiments with Beholder Mage. At L13+ she advances Beholder Mage casting and Archivist casting via Mystic Theurge.

At level 20, the classes are:
Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Ruathar 1/Hathran 5/Beholder Mage 1/Mystic Theurge 8

The Bemstra ends as a Lawful Good beholder. We advance Int, and pay for 5 wishes to boost int by +5 (inherent) during L15, later boosting Wis+5, Chr+5, Con+4, Dex+4, as money becomes available.

The feats are:
1. Ethran
1. (human) Earth Sense
1. (Archivist) Scribe Scroll
1. (flaw: Weak Will) Heighten Spell
1. (flaw: Shaky) Able Learner
3. Earth Spell
4. (Inquisition Domain) Knowledge Devotion
6. Leadership
6. (Otyugh Hole) Iron Will
9. Initiate of Mystra
11. (Iron Will) Assume Supernatural Ability
11. (Knowledge Devotion) Improved Assume Supernatural Ability
12. (Scribe Scroll) Extend Spell
12. Persist Spell
12. (Writhing Asps of Sss'thasine'ss) Node Spellcasting
12. (Court of Thieves) Metanode Spell
15. Ocular Spell
16. (Iron Wyrm Vault) Chain Spell
17. (Magicus Creare I) Arcane Preparation
17. (Magicus Creare II) Agile Tyrant
17. (Magicus Creare III) Silent Spell
18. (Maior Creare) Invisible Spell
18. Arcane Strike
20. (Frog God's Fane) -> Mother Cyst

There are several familiar tricks here.

(1) Earth Sense+Heighten Spell+Earth Spell is an early entry trick providing spells one level higher than normal. The early entry is used 3 times (Para, Hathran, Mystic Theurge). This is one of the most expensive ways to early entry, but it has the virtue of being useful later.

(2) The inquisition domain is swapped for knowledge devotion and eventually swapped for Improved Assume Supernatural Ability using the chaos shuffle trick.

(3) Initiate of Mystra is a delicate feat. According to Races of Dragon, it can be applied to nonclerics that advance cleric spellcasting and require a patron deity. Fortunately, Hathran requires a Patron deity.

(4) Bemstra qualifies for Beholder mage using (improved) assume supernatural ability after Embrace the dark chaos/shun the dark chaos.

(5) Bemstra scavenge feats from several sources in Complete Scoundrel and the writhing aspshttp://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20020130a, to acquire metanode and persist. Finding a good earth node, we can now persist spells. Alternatively, a combination of circle magic heighten + spell engine (from spell compendium) allows us to persist many things.

(6) Ocular spell and chain spell build on the persist base, so we can persist many things, and they take effect 21 times.

(7) Taking advantage of Ruathar, Bemstra convinces the elves to let us study the Nether scrolls which gives many feats that can't be used due to Hathran. Shuffling things around, she takes arcane preparation to circle-heighten beholder mage spells, Agile tyrant for one extra action/round, and silent spell for one extra action/round. Invisible Spell helps avoid some of the more obnoxious visual effects of persisted spells.

(8) Arcane strike allows to inflict expected +52.5 damage/hit in combat. Since Bemstra can do 6 attacks/round with a single weapon, this could be a worthwhile use of a level 0 spell.

(9) Scraping together one last feat, which might come earlier, we take mother cyst which gives access to the phenomenal "Necrotic Empowerment" spell.

At the end we have L9 archivist spells and L9 sorcerer/wizard spells which we use to persist~100 spells day. The list is long, but the end result is:
(1) Dex 34, Con 40, Int 38, Wis 88, Chr 38.
(2) K(arcana) 51, K(Religion) 34, Spellcraft 83, Concentration 52, Diplomacy 70, Listen 72, Search 45, Bluff 101, Hide 78, Sense Motive 76, Spot 102.
(3) Touch AC: 68
(4) 337 hp + 100 temporary hp (1/2 damage due to empyreal ecstasy.
(5) For 64, Refl 55, Will 90
(6) Immunity to all conditions but Fascinated.

The spells left after daily persists are:
Archivist 4/0/7/6/4/7/6/10/10/9
BM: 6/9/5/8/7/8/9/7/6/4

A few highlight spells are:
AM-field. Heighten this to L20 to obstruct an Incantatrix from manipulating. Cast multiple times for robustness against a repeated Disjunction.

Permeable form. Makes Bemstra incorporeal. This dovetails with AM-field to leave Bemstra vulnerable only to creatures that strike as magic weapons, incorporeal nonundead, and anything that can break an AM-field: divine abilities, epic spells, and other Initiates of Mystra. In particular, we are invulnerable to all ranged weapons.

A-life shell. This further limits damage sources to Outsiders, Undead, Constructs, and Elementals.

Superior invisibility (& invisible spell) make Bemstra very stealthy and completely silent.

Srinshee's Spell Shrift. Combined with circle magic, this allows us to also widen or enlarge any spell.

Hunter's eye at caster level 115, maximized and empowered, does almost 300 points of damage.

Owl's insight provides a +58 bonus to wisdom.

We've also optimized caster level. In particular, the natural place to make a home is on a dead magic plane (via Genesis) with flowing time where we cast Node Genesis, twice (with the first helping the level of the second). Using Srinshee based widen, the second cast creates an L15 earth node and our caster level is:

Circle 40
Node caster +15
Earth Spell +11 to +20
Hymn of Praise +2 (persistable)
Harmonic Chorus +2 (persistable)
Spell enhance +2 (nonpersistable)
Mystic surge +1 (nonpersistable)
Adept Spirit +1 (nonpersistable)
Consumptive Field +39 (persistable)
=113 to 122

Bemstra's attack routine (using Girallon's Blessing arms) is 51/51/51/46/41/36 with a +5 flaming burst undead bane ghost touch cold iron maul doing 6d8+5(enhance)+6(luck)+3(morale)+(6+1d6/2)(holy)+1d6(fire) +sneak attack with all hits autoconfirmed. None of that jargon of modifiers is from an actual magic weapon of course---it's all spell effects.

Her off hand has a similar light mace. and for ranged attacks she carries a +5 flaming burst undead bane ghost touch Greatbow with attack routine 51/51/51/51/46/41/36.

Spell based attacks are even more impressive. Erupt can plausibly do 940 fire damage in an almost 2 mile radius with a DC 45 fort 1/2 save.

Using anyspell, we can shift the DC stat of lowerlevel arcane spells to wisdom, then circle magic them up. Doing this, Wings of Flurry does 728.5 force damage with a refl 1/2 DC 65.

Holy word also autokills all nearby 86- HD nongood monsters.

One thing I didn't use was psychic reformation to scavenge feats from prestige class prerequisites after qualifying for the prestige class. You could do that to get a few more feats, but I believe this is not RAI*.

All of the above is just a summary. If you have questions about specifics I can try to answer, but I'm also curious if you have ideas for how to improve things.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

no dragon magazines, and no cross-setting optimizationsPhew atleast we avoided that cheese. We'll just have to settle for Beholder Mag

[TravelLog]

Phew atleast we avoided that cheese. We'll just have to settle for Beholder Mag

And thank goodness we didn't assume that we'd have access to Major Artifacts, whose rarity is beyond imagining.

Joking aside, this is a pretty crazy build. Nice work.

[Autolycus84]

I dunno... it looks a bit under-powered to me, like high Tier 3 at most.

[Myth]

I like, the build, I like you making use of Shrinshree's Spell Shrift. I like Beholder Mage. I love Hathrans.

What I don't like and get is your RP justification. Why did you even bother? Lol:


The beholder is sentenced to death, because it's unrepentant and might break out of any jail. She begs mercy for the beholder, buys a very expensive powerstone of True Mindswitch and swaps bodies with it.

How does this make any sense? Sure the whole build might sort of be RAI but.. no not really. Have you read the Hathran fluff? They are very exclusive and uptight about who becomes one. They are leaders of the Rashemi people, the de-facto rulers actually. Why would she start delving into beholder abominations and take Mother Cyst? That just seems forced.

Embrace/Shun the Dark Munchkin is NOT RAI excuuuuse me. Have you read the descriptions for those spells? The creators DID NOT mean them to allow elves to retrain their racial Longbow proficiency feat into Persit Spell. Using the spells by RAW lets you do stupid stuff like that, but you are claiming using the whole build as RAI. Well forget about chaos shuffle then, no sane DM, hell no one who actually read that book would allow this.

Embracing and Shunning and whatnot should not be a morning exercise for power-hungry Wizards.

I would be more impressed with a completely RAI build that stays true to realmslore and is still pretty darn powerful. Combine Incantatrix/Hathran/Dweomerkeepr in some way for a character that is truly formidable by early Epic but one who would still seem viable for the setting.

Otherwise you can always go Cindy/Mailman/Wish&Word etc.

[Jheska]

He certainly sacrificed a lot of power for flavour, I mean he didn't even have room to obtain familiar.

[Doc Roc]

Welcome, young padawan. Shed the frailties of emotion and your attachments to fluff, and you may yet become a jedi master.

[Myth]

Welcome, young padawan. Shed the frailties of emotion and your attachments to fluff, and you may yet become a jedi master.

The OP stated he wanted a RAI character, even the thread is named "Beholder Mage of Mystra" not "Beholder Mage build MK XXV", perhaps more reading and less SW jokes?

[Anthrowhale]

I like, the build, I like you making use of Shrinshree's Spell Shrift. I like Beholder Mage. I love Hathrans.




Joking aside, this is a pretty crazy build. Nice work.

Thanks!

Let me add a few details and address other comments. This build achieves:

(1) 9th level all divine spells [archivist]
(2) 9th level all sorcerer/wizard spells
(3) Spontaneous cast all of the above. [though only one/day for divine spells]
(4) circle magic
(5) unlimited persistent metamagic
(6) antimagic & dead magic casting
(7) 12 spells/round [Beholder Mage + Silent Archivist spell + Anyspell Silent Arcane with Arcane Spellsurge]
(8) High epic/deific skill levels/saves/attack/AC/damage/save DC.

Also, here's a long list of free cumulative day+ duration spells for the archivist. Assume that all beneficial metamagic is applied to each of them, as we have 15 levels to burn with metanode spells.

Foresight
Choose Destiny
End to Strife
Cast In Stone
Visage of the Deity, Greater
Shapechange
Unearthly Beauty
Visions of Future
Moment of Prescience
Necrotic Empowerment
Crown of Glory
Aura Of Vitality
Plane Shift, Greater
Holy Transformation
Holy Star
Righteous Glare
Stone Body
Energy Immunity: Fire,Cold, Electricity, Acid, Sonic
Alife Shell
Nixies Grace
Empyreal Ecstasy
Snowsong
Resistance, Superior
AM Shell*5
Vigorous Circle
Wind Walk
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Triadspell: Heroics
Divine Agility
Dragonsight
Owl's Insight
Favor of Ilmater
Inner Beauty
Luminous Armor, Greater
Death Ward
Freedom of Movement
Delay Death
Bite of the Wereboar
Essence of the Raptor
Blessing of the Righteous
Divine Power
Remove Fatigue
Voice of the Dragon
Ruin Delver's Fortuner
Ray Deflection
Aerial Alacrity
Mark of Enlightened Soul
Sustain
Prayer
Inspired Aim
Magic Fang, Greater
True Prayer of the Chosen
Hymn of Praise
Glibness
Sheltered Vitality
Ghost Touch Weapon
Shield of Warding
Recitation
Undead Bane Weapon
Magic Vestment
Fell The Greatest Foe
Battlemagic Perception
Spiderskin
Dolorous Blow
Haste
Magic Weapon, Greater
Vision of the Omniscient Eye
Girallon's Blessing
Flame of Faith
Tongues
Battlehymn
Ghost Touch Armor
Divine Protection
Elation
Veil of Shadow
Benediction
See Invisible
Harmonic Chorus
Primal Instinct
Cloud Wings
Detect Thoughts
Hunter's Eye
Find Traps
Tojanida Sight
One with the land
Scintillating Scales
Adept Spirit
Know Greatest Enemy
Conviction
Wieldskill, (many)
Divine Favor
Healer's Vision
Beastland Ferocity
Lightfoot
Focusing Chant
Camouflage
Grave Strike
Hawkeye
Arrow Mind
Guided Shot
Eyes of Avoral
Prot from E
Ebon Eyes
critical Strike
Serene Visage
Sniper's Shot
Embrace the Wild


And a shorter list of freely persistable sorcerer/wizard spells:


SrinShee's Spell Shift
Invisibility, Superior
Arcane Spellsurge
Statue
Sakratar's Triple Strike
Spell Enhancer
Mighty Wallop, Greater
Permeable Form
Heroics, Improved Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Double Hit, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Rapid Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Defensive Sweep, Exotic WP: Maul, WF: Maul, WF: Light Mace, Exotic WP: Greatbow, WF: Greatbow, Shield Specialization, Improved Init, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, Quickdraw, Two-Weapon Fight, Improved Two-Weapon Fight, Greater Two Weapon Fight, Two Weapon Rend, Ranged Disarm, Improved Trip, Blind-Fight
Friendly Face
Golem Strike

Also note that the simulacra used to power circle magic with their L6 spells are solid guardians---level 10 archivist beholders, which are enhanced daily by chained persistent spells and capable of antimagic and dead magic casting.

One last detail is that a high caster level Disjunction is to be feared. This build is accidentally optimized to against that though, because we can countercast or counterspell (with Srinshee's!) as a free action.



How does this make [B]any sense? Sure the whole build might sort of be RAI but.. no not really. Have you read the Hathran fluff? They are very exclusive and uptight about who becomes one. They are leaders of the Rashemi people, the de-facto rulers actually.


That actually fits with the build. True Mind Switch with a Beholder is a career ending move.



Why would she start delving into beholder abominations and take Mother Cyst? That just seems forced.


A bit forced definitely, but not completely absurd for an Archivist of Mystra. True mind switch with a beholder is certainly an effective way to pursue the study of magic.

With respect to [evil] spells, I'm imagining the character as lawful good, rather than Lawful Good, or LAWFUL GOOD. In other words, flexible enough about the means to allow for the use of [evil] spells as long as they achieve good results. That's inline with an archivist and appears ok w.r.t. Mystra who is particularly known for tolerance.



Embrace/Shun the Dark Munchkin is NOT RAI excuuuuse me. Have you read the descriptions for those spells? The creators DID NOT mean them to allow elves to retrain their racial Longbow proficiency feat into Persit Spell.


RAI and RAI* might differ here. RAI might take into account the unintended consequences while RAI* does not (other than infinite loops). If you asked the creators, I expect that Embrace is really meant to allow you to replace any feat with an abyssal heritor, while Shun is meant to replace any abyssal heritor with any other feat. What else could be intended? They probably didn't mean this to be any-to-any feat exchange, but that is an unintended consequence of the combination, and hence RAI*.

W.r.t. racial feats, that doesn't come up here. I considered swapping initial weapon/armor proficiencies, but they don't seem to technically be a feat.



Embracing and Shunning and whatnot should not be a morning exercise for power-hungry Wizards.


Note that it happens either 0 or 1 times for each feat in this build, and the cost is fully charged against WBL for for all uses before we can self-cast.



I would be more impressed with a completely RAI build that stays true to realmslore and is still pretty darn powerful. Combine Incantatrix/Hathran/Dweomerkeepr in some way for a character that is truly formidable by early Epic but one who would still seem viable for the setting.

Otherwise you can always go Cindy/Mailman/Wish&Word etc.

I'm not familiar with Cindy or Wish&Word. Educate me?

If you want a build that doesn't change race and doesn't use Embrace/Shun, look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220778).


And thank goodness we didn't assume that we'd have access to Major Artifacts, whose rarity is beyond imagining.


I think you're looking for the word "unique":smallsmile: But, given the power of the build (and intelligence), it seems not crazy that access is findable. Also the easily overlooked Ruathar "Word of Friendship" + diplomancer = very friendly (some might say fanatic) elf.

[Doc Roc]

The OP stated he wanted a RAI character, even the thread is named "Beholder Mage of Mystra" not "Beholder Mage build MK XXV", perhaps more reading and less SW jokes?

I read. I understood.

Then I understood.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Like a lot of IRTEHPWNZORCASTOR builds this has stacking problems (besides the gagging amounts of cheese). For instance many of your buffs are competence bonuses and there's no point to persisting Spell Enhancer due to the spell text. Primal Release is not from a legal source.

Simulacrum use and a bunch of stuff in here is against the dirty handbook fixes, but you did gain yourself a spot on there: SpC's hardcore nerf of spell engine has a linguistic fail that turned it into an insanely broken buff. Nice catch.

Hunting for good enough but not broken spells to persist (strange lack of them at higher spell levels) so I'd like sources for:
Visions of Future
Inner Beauty
Blessing of the Righteous
Mark of Enlightened Soul
True Prayer of the Chosen
Primal Instinct
Adept Spirit
Eyes of Avoral
and that races of the dragon page number for Initiate of Mystra while you are at i

[Myth]

Srinshee's Spell Shift is in the Lost Empires of Faerun. There's the real spell, the actual 10th level one, described in the AD&D "Fall of Myth Drannor" splatbook. That one is juicy.

[Anthrowhale]

I rechecked things. There was a little bit of double stacking, and I discovered that Greater Visage of the Deity doesn't really work for archivists. I also added a few more spells into the mix.

The following is an explicit computation of all the numerical bonuses.

Str: - (ghostform)
Dex: 32 = 14(Beholder)+10(enhance, divine agility)-4(stone body)+4(sacred, inner beauty)+4(morale, aura of vitality)+4(instantaneous, wishes)
Con: 38 = 18(Beholder)+8(enhance, Bite of werebear)+4(sacred, Holy transformation)+4(morale, aura of vitality)+4(instantaneous, wishes)
Int: 36 = 18+5(levels)+8(enhance, Necrotic Empowerment)+5(instantaneous, wishes)
Wis: 84 = 13+5(levels)+8(enhance, Necrotic Empowerment)+5(instantaneous, wishes)+58(Owl's Insight)
Chr: 34 = 13+5(levels)+8(enhance, Nixie's Grace)+5(instantaneous, wishes)+4(Sacred, inner beauty)+4(Morale, snowsong)

Fort: 61 = 3(archivist)+4(Hathran)+2(Mystic T)+14(con)+6(resist: Superior Resistance)+14(Luck, Ruin Delver's Fortune + Benediction)+4 (sacred, Holy Transformation)+5(Morale, Conviction)+3 insight (True Prayer)+1(trait, passionate)
Refl: 52 = 1(archivist)+2 (Ruathar)+1(Hathran)+2(Mystic T)+11(Dex)+6(resist: Superior Resistance)+14(Luck, Ruin Delver's Fortune + Benediction)+5 (sacred, Shield of Warding)+5(Morale, Conviction)+3 Insight (True Prayer)+2 (Dodge, Haste+Aerial alacrity)
Will: 86 = 3(archivist)+2(Church Inquisitor)+2(Paragnostic A)+2(Ruathar)+4(Hathran)+2(Beholder Mage)+6(Mystic T)+37(Wis)+6(resist: Superior Resistance)+14(Luck, Ruin Delver's Fortune + Benediction)+4 (sacred, Holy Transformation)+5(Morale, Conviction)+3 insight (True Prayer)-4(trait, passionate, Flaw: Weak Will)

HP: 337 = 13(archivist)+4.5 (church Inq.)+2.5(Para A)+3.5(Ruathar)+12.5(Hathran)+2.5(Beholder Mage)+20(Mystic T)+11*(con mod-2)+9*(con mod)+20(improved toughness)

To-hit: 50 = 1(archivist)+2(Hathran)+4(Mystic Theurge)+13(divine power)+11(dex)+6(luck, divine favor)+1(weapon focus)+4(morale, crown of glory)-1(size)+2(healer's vision)+1(haste)+1(circumstance, focusing chant)+5(enhance)

AC = Touch AC: 70 = 10(base)+8(Luminous Armor)+3(luck, recitation)+22 deflect(Beholder NA+bite of the werebear+scintillating scales)+1(small shield, ghost touch armor)+1(shield specialization, small shield, ghost touch armor)+5(enhance, ghost touch armor)+6(circumstance, Holy Star)+5(sacred, shield of warding)+5(dodge, Haste, Visions of Future, feat, aerial alacrity)+1(morale, divine protection)-1(size)+4(insight, snowsong)

Init +29 = +11(Dex)+5(competence, primal instinct)+4(sign)+5(nerve skitter)

Skills: all have +14 = -4(empyreal ecstasy)+4(morale, crown of glory)+1(circumstance, focusing chant)+1(luck, prayer)+2(share talent)+10(competence, wieldskill)

K(arcana) 55 = 6(archivist) +7(Hathran)+1(Beholder Mage)+9(Mystic T)+13(int)+14(universal)+5(insight, lore of the gods)
K(religion) 38 = 6(archivist) + bonuses
K(Rashemen) 26 = 4(archivist) +bonuses
K(Dungeoneering) 27 = 5 (archivist)+bonuses
Spellcraft 82 = 6(archivist)+1(CI)+1(PA)+1(Ruathar)+5(Hathran)+1(B M)+8(MT)+13(int)+14(universal)+2(synergy)+30(inher ent, nether scrolls)
Concentration 51 = 6(archivist)+1(CI)+1(PA)+1(Ruathar)+5(Hathran)+1(B M)+8(MT)+14(con)+14(universal)
Diplomacy 68 = 6(archivist)+1(CI)+2(Ruathar)+5(Hathran)+9(MT)+12( Chr)+14(universal)+4(synergy) +5(Friendly Face)+10(Voice of the Dragon)
Listen 66 = 5 (MT)+37(Wis)+8(essence of raptor)+2(embrace the wild)+14(universal)
Search 48 = 3(archivist)+13(int)+14(universal)+10(insight, find traps)+4(Tojanida sight)+4(racial, Beholder)
Bluff 99 = 3(archivist)+5(PA)+2(BM)+13(MT)+12(chr)+14(univers al)+10(insight, Serene Visage)+10(enhance, voice of the dragon)+30(glibness)
Hide 75 = 3 (Archivist)+4(Hathran)+4(MT)+11(dex)+14(universal) +10(circumstance, camouflage)+20(invisibility+8(essence of raptor)+5(racial, spiderskin)-4(size)
Sense Motive 74 = 3(archivist)+2(CI)+3(Ruathar)+6(Hathran)+1(BM)+8(M T)+37(wis)+14(universal)
Spot 96 = 3(Archivist)+4(CI)+2(Ruathar)+5(Hathran)+1(BM)+8(M T)+37(Wis)+14(universal+8(Essence of Raptor)+4(Tojanida Sight)+2(Embrace the Wild)+8(Eyes of Avoral)

Skill tricks: PA:False Theurgy, Hathran:Swift Concentration


And this is a list of Immunities & Resistances:

Immunities:

Fire (Antifire sphere)
Acid (Energy Immunity)
Electricity (Energy Immunity)
Sonic (Energy Immunity)
Cold (Anticold Sphere)
Restraints (Freedom of Movement)
Blown Away (Freedom of Movement)
Checked (Freedom of Movement)

Ability Damage (Sheltered Vitality)
Ability Drain (Sheltered Vitality)

Blindness (Stone body)
Deafness (Stone Body)
Crits (Stone Body)
Poison (Stone Body)
Physiology Spells (Stone Body)
Drowning (Stone Body)
Stunning (Stone Body)
Sneak attacks (Stone Body)
Disease (Stone Body)

Mind-affecting spells & effects (Empyreal Ecstasy)
Supernatural (AM field)
Spell (AM field)
Spell-Like ability (AM field)

Fear (Crown of Glory)

Nonlethal (Favor of Ilmater)
Daze (Favor of Ilmater)
Exhausted (Favor of Ilmater)
Fatigued (Favor of Ilmater)
Nauseated (Favor of Ilmater)
Sickened (favor of Ilmater)
staggered (favored of Ilmater)

Flank (Tojanida Sight)

Dazzled (Vision of the Omniscient Eye)

Flat-footed (Foresight)
Surprise (Foresight)
Listen (Ghostform)

Death Spells & effects (death watch)
Energy Drain (Death Watch)
Negative Energy (Death Watch)

Ranged Touch (Ray deflection)
Possession (Protection from Evil)

Greater Spell Immunity: (24 spells)
Blasphemy, Word of Chaos, Word of Balance, Maddening Scream, Maze,

Dimensional Lock, Dimensional Anchor, Alife Shell, Zone of Respite, Mass Make Manifest, Energy Transformation Field,

Clenched Fist, Forceful Hand, Grasping Hand, Hellfire, Hellfire Storm, Lahm's Finger Darts, Love's Pain, Chain Missile, Force Missiles, Vortex of Teeth, Spellslayer Arrow, Avascular Mass, Avasculate

Resistances
Hardness 8 (statue)
DR 10/adamantine (stone body) & magic ()
Fast Heal 4(Greater Vigor)
Total Concealment (invisibility)
Incorporeal (Ghostform)
50% ethereal (Greater blink)
SR 127 (Skin of the steel dragon)
100 Temp hp
Stalwart Pact ( 1/2 hp => +585 hp)
Renewal Pact (bad effect => panacea)
Fortunate Fate (contingent Heal)
Delay Death
Elminster's Evasion (various => Teleport home, Revivify, Heal)


That took awhile so I hope it helps.

I also thought a bit about this build vs. some others that I know of or learned about. Mailman/Cindy types seem outclassed. Even if they win initiative, they generally can't get around the AM-field + invisible-incorporeal-blinking which deeply nerfs their expected damage.

Other Beholder Mage builds could unleash many more spells, but the AM-invisible-incorporeal-blink is a significant obstacle.

The Team Solars approach here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138 also pushes persistence to the limit, but the lack of cohesion leaves them individually weak, as indicated by the difference in initiative modifiers.

Against other initiate of mystra types, a generic Initiate can launch an AM-compatible Disjunction that eliminates all buffs but the AM-field, and maybe get a spell or two through if they win initiative. Bemstra has a pretty high initiative and an adept spirit spell enhancer heightened disjunction with caster level 97 tears through AM-fields.

Against a circle magic type with even more caster levels whoever wins initiative can nerf the other's buffs. Bemstra's high init and stealth provides some edge.

So, overall, the synthesis of initiate+dual casting+circle+persistence seems substantially stronger.

Against Epic monsters that aren't wizards, the advanced Gibbering Orb and advanced Umbral Blot stand out. The best way to take out an Umbral Blot seems to be sniping with force orbs until it gets frustrated and tries to dimension door or teleport into the Greater Anticipate Teleportation field. Then, get near, prepare, and hammer with several Wings of Flurry. An advanced Gibbering Orb can blow through the AM-field with a disjunction and follow up with 4 more nasty spells, so this is an initiative race which favors Bemstra.



There's no point to persisting Spell Enhancer due to the spell text.


A few Spell Enhancers are used to jack up the spell level on a few important spells. It's a small optimization.



Primal Release is not from a legal source.


Sorry, where's Primal Release?



Simulacrum use and a bunch of stuff in here is against the dirty handbook fixes, but you did gain yourself a spot on there: SpC's hardcore nerf of spell engine has a linguistic fail that turned it into an insanely broken buff. Nice catch.


That's old, it's in the Red wizard's handbook. Where is the dirty handbook fixes?



Hunting for good enough but not broken spells to persist (strange lack of them at higher spell levels) so I'd like sources for:
Visions of Future
Inner Beauty
Blessing of the Righteous
Mark of Enlightened Soul
True Prayer of the Chosen
Primal Instinct
Adept Spirit
Eyes of Avoral
and that races of the dragon page number for Initiate of Mystra while you are at i

VoF: PHII
IB: Hordes of the Abyss
BotR: PHII
MoES: Dragon Magic
TPotC: Tome of Magic
PI: Dragon Magic
AS: Magic of Incarnum
EoA: Exalted Deeds

I think you want page 15 of dragon magic.

Here's my updated list of Archivist spells:


PH AC/Refl+2(insight), immune surprise, flat-footed DS Dom Foresight, PEM
RoM Roll twice and take best Dom Choose Destiny, PEM
ED 5 120+10d6 nonlethal to attackers in 80' C End to Strife, PEMEM
SC 11 30' Save or Turn to Stone gaze attack D Cast In Stone, PEMH
PH Change shape at will Dom S Shapechange, PEM
ED 12 At will 60' Save or Blind, 30' save or die D Unearthly Beauty, PEMH
PHII Sacred+2 save, AC+2 dodge C Visions of Future, E
PH Huge bonus once S Dom' Moment of Prescience, E
PH Immune Blasphemy, Word of Chaos, Word of Balance, Dimensional Lock, Dimensional Anchor, Maze, Alife Shell, Clenched Fist, Forceful Hand, Grasping Hand, Interposing Hand, Mord's Sword, Magic Missile, Hellfire, Hellfire Storm, Lahm's Finger Darts, Love's Pain, Chain Missile, Earthen Grasp, ETF, Force Missiles, Maddening Scream, Mass Make Manifest, Spirit Jaws, Sword of Deception, Vortex of Teeth, Zone of Respite, Vampiric Touch, Desert Diversion, Spirit Needle, Spellslayer Arrow C Dom Spell Immunity, greater, OPEM
LM Int/Wis/Dex+8(enhance), Fort+5(Competence), 100 temp hp CS Necrotic Empowerment, PEM
SC Attack,save,skill+4(Morale) Dom Crown of Glory, PE
SC Str/Dex/Con+4(Morale) D Aura Of Vitality, POEM
CD Autheal Cdom Renewal Pact
SC Go anywhere CS Plane Shift, Greater
SC Str/Con/saves+4(Sacred), Evil -2 to attack you C Holy Transformation, PEM
SC AC+6(Circumstance) or 60+5d6 Thunder C Holy Star, PEMEM
SC Native environment surrounds CS Planar Bubble, PEM
SC Heal if -10 or less hp C Fortunate Fate, EM
ED Glare 60', evil 5- HD Die or Save to fear, Neutral and Evil Fear or Save CS Righteous Glare, PEH
SC DR 10/Adamantine, Immune blindness, critical hits, deafness, disease, Dex-4, speed/2 CS Stone Body, PEI
SC Immune Elemental Damage CDS Energy Immunity: Electricity, Acid, Sonic, E
PH Only undead, elemental, outsider, construct can approach CD Alife Shell, PEM
SC Dex+6, Wis+2, Chr+8(enhance) B Nixies Grace, PEM
ED 1/2 damage, -4 skills, Immune mind-affecting B Dom Empyreal Ecstasy, PEM
FB Chr+4(morale), AC+4 (Insight) B Snowsong, PEIM
SC Save+6(Resist) CS Resistance, Superior
PH No magic but your own affects you CSDom' AM Shell*5, PEM

SC Con+8(Enhance), Bite, NA+7(enhance) DS Bite of the Werebear, PEM
PH Fly 600' CD Wind Walk, E
SC D+3(morale) C Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, PEM
SC Fast Heal 4 CD Greater Vigor, OPEM
SC Triply case L3- spell C Triadspell: Heroics
SC Dex+10(enhance) C Divine Agility, POEM
SC X4 lowlight, x2 normal, 480' darkvision, 240' blindsense, 1/2 normal range penalty to spot S Dom' Dragonsight, PEM
CD 1/2 hp -> +585 temp hp C Dom Stalwart Pact
SC 10' radius hedge out cold, immune cold DS Anticold Sphere, PEM
SC Controlled Blinking BS Dom Blink, Greater, PEM
SC 15 Wis+63(insight) D Owl's Insight, POEHM
SC Immune Nonlethal, charm, compulsion, daze, exhausted, fatigued, nauseated, Sickened, staggered, stunned P Favor of Ilmater, POEM
Hordes Dex,Chr+4, Sacred B Inner Beauty, POEM
ED AC+8(force armor) Any Luminous Armor, Greater, EOIM
PH Immune death spells, effects, energy drain, negative energy CDP Death Ward, POEM
PH Immune restrains BCDR Freedom of Movement, POEM
SC Can't die from HP damage C Delay Death, POEM
SC Listen/Spot/Survival+8, Scent D Essence of the Raptor, PEM
PHII 5 D+6+1d6/2(holy) CP Blessing of the Righteous, PEMEM
PH BAB=20 Cdom Divine Power, PEM
ED No need to rest C Remove Fatigue
SC Bluff,Diplomacy,Intimidate+10(enhance) BSDom Voice of the Dragon, PEM
SC Saves+chr(luck), Immune poison, Evasion, Fear BS Ruin Delver's Fortuner, PEM
SC Immune ranged touch BS Dom' Ray Deflection, PEM
RoW Better movement, AC/Refl+1 (Dodge) S Dom Aerial Alacrity, PEM
DM All Spells good CS Mark of Enlightened Soul, PEM
ED No need for food C Sustain, E
PH Skill+1(Luck) CP Prayer, PEM
ED A+2(insight) ranged BCR Inspired Aim, PEM
PH AD+5(enhance) DR Magic Fang, Greater, EOM
ToM Saves+3(insight) CP True Prayer of the Chosen, PEM
SC caster level+2 B Hymn of Praise, PE
PH Bluff+30 for lieing B Glibness, PEM
SC Immune ability Damage, Drain CD Sheltered Vitality, POEM
SC Weapon affects ghosts C Ghost Touch Weapon, PCOEM
SC AC+5(Sacred), Refl+5(Sacred) CP Shield of Warding, POEM
SC AC+3(Luck) C Dom Recitation, PEM
SC Weapons good, extra damage vs. undead CP Undead Bane Weapon, COEM
PH AC+5(Shield enhance) Cdom Magic Vestment, EOM
SC 5 Extra 6+d6/2 per size larger ACPR Fell The Greatest Foe, POEMEM
HoB Detect all spellcasting in 100' range CS Battlemagic Perception, PEM
SC Hide+5(Racial) DS Spiderskin, POEM
SC Crit Threat doubled, crits autoconfirm BS Dolorous Blow, PCOEM
PH A+1, AC+2(dodge), extra attack BS Haste, POEM
PH AD+5(enhance) CPS Magic Weapon, Greater, COEM
DM Spot+10(insight), immune Dazzle BCDS Vision of the Omniscient Eye, PE
SC Use Shield+2 weapons+cast spells at same time CDS Girallon's Blessing
SC All weapons flaming Burst CP Flame of Faith, PCOEM
PH Talk to Anyone BCS Dom' Tongues
SC Reroll 1 will/round BS Battlehymn, PEM
SC Armor vs incorporeal CS Ghost Touch Armor, POEM
SC AC+1(Morale) CP Divine Protection, POEM
ED Move+5(Morale) BCS Elation, PEM
SC 20% miss ABCS Veil of Shadow, PEM
CC save+2(luck) CP Benediction, POEM
PH See Invisible BS Dom' See Invisible
SC Caster level/DC+2(Morale) with concentration B Harmonic Chorus, POEM
DM Init/Survival+5(competence) DRS Primal Instinct, E
SC Fly+30' D Cloud Wings
PH Hear thoughts in 60' Sdom Detect Thoughts, PE
PHII 5 131.75 sneak attack R Hunter's Eye, PEMEM
PH Search+10(insight) C Find Traps, PEM
SW Spot/Search+4, can't be flanked DR Tojanida Sight, PEM

SC NA becomes deflect S Dom' Scintillating Scales, PEM
CC Knowledge+5(insight) C Lore of the Gods, E
MoI Caster level+1(insight) CS Adept Spirit, PE
SC identify most dangerous enemy BP Know Greatest Enemy, PEM
SC save+5(Morale) C Conviction, PCOEM
MoF Hide, Diplomacy, Bluff, Spot, Listen+10(Competence) C Wieldskill, (many): POEM
PH AD+6(luck) CP Divine Favor, PEM
CS AD+2 for precision attacks, cure spells heal +spell level, heal+5(insight) AC Healer's Vision, PEM
SC Stay up at negative HP BD Beastland Ferocity, POEM
SC No AOO for moving AR Lightfoot, PEM
SC circumstance+1 to hit B Focusing Chant, PEM
SC Hide+10(Circumstance) DR Camouflage, PEM
SC Sneak attack Undead CP Grave Strike, PEM
SC Range+50% DR Hawkeye, PEM
SC No AOO for bow, threaten adjacent RS Arrow Mind, PEM
SC No Range/Cover RS Guided Shot, PEM
ED Spot+8(racial) CDRS Eyes of Avoral, POEM
PH Immune Possession CPS Prot from E, POEM
SC See in Dark ACS Ebon Eyes, POEM
SC 6+1d6/2 precision ABS critical Strike, PEM
SC Bluff+10(Insight) BS Serene Visage, PEM
SC Sneak Attack Plants DR Vine Strike, PEM
SC Listen/Spot+2 DR Embrace the Wild, PEM


And an updated list of Beholder mage spells:


LE Enhanced counterspell S SrinShee's Spell Shift, PEM
FS all AMFs down, dead, command thought, body trapped, soul trapped => go home, revivify, heal S Elminster's Evasion
SC Super invisible S Invisibility, Superior, PEM
DM Swift casting S Arcane Spellsurge, PE
PH Hardness 8 S Statue, E
SC 3 round delay for all teleporting in within 500+' S Anticipate Teleportation, Greater, EM
LE Extra 2 attacks/round in melee S Sakratar's Triple Strike, PEM
VC SR 10+CL S Skin of the Steel Dragon, PEM
SS 10' radius hedge out fire, immune fire S Antifire Sphere, OPEM
SC Caster level+2 S Spell Enhancer
RoD Blunt melee damages as colossal S Mighty Wallop, Greater, COEM
LoM Incorporeal! S Permeable Form, PEM
SC Many Bonuses S Heroics, POEM, Improved Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Double Hit, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Rapid Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Defensive Sweep, Exotic WP: Maul, WF: Maul, WF: Light Mace, Exotic WP: Greatbow, WF: Greatbow, Shield Specialization, Improved Init, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, Quickdraw, Two-Weapon Fight, Improved Two-Weapon Fight, Greater Two Weapon Fight, Two Weapon Rend, Ranged Disarm, Improved Trip, Shield Proficiency
RoM Diplomacy, Gather Info+5(circumstance) BS Friendly Face, PEM
SC Sneak Attack Golem S Dom' Golem Strike,PEM
CM SR check+10 S Truecasting (AM, Alife)
SC Sneak Attack Any Distance ARS Sniper's Shot, PEM
SC Shield used without hands S Shieldbearer, OPEM


The first entry is the source, the second a very short description, the third something about valid classes, the fourth the name, and the fifth the metamagic applied.

[Longcat]

Note that you don't qualify for Church Inquisitor as a follower of Mystra.

[Anthrowhale]

Note that you don't qualify for Church Inquisitor as a follower of Mystra.

Why? Mystra has Paladins so why not Church Inquisitor?

[dextercorvia]

Why? Mystra has Paladins so why not Church Inquisitor?

It isn't a Lawful Good church or religious organization. Of course, you could theorize being a member of a sub organization within the church of Mystra that is LG.

[Anthrowhale]

It isn't a Lawful Good church or religious organization. Of course, you could theorize being a member of a sub organization within the church of Mystra that is LG.

I would tend to do so. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to have a church inquisitor when there are paladins + extra diverse alignment allowances.

[pwykersotz]

I love this thread. I'm showing it to my power gamers right away. They will eat up all the cheese. :smallbiggrin:

[Alleran]

It isn't a Lawful Good church or religious organization. Of course, you could theorize being a member of a sub organization within the church of Mystra that is LG.
The Knights of the Mystic Fire are, IIRC, LG.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Hmm again, let me comment that I do see the effort put forth. My bad on the primal release.

I don't see a morale to hit or skill bonus for crown of glory. You mean another spell. Healer's vision requires a successful SA. How are you making recitation's & divine protection's burst persistent?

Also your interpretation of the initiate text in Races of the Dragon, while valid, is probably not RAI and a DM is definitely within his rights to interpret it opposite you: in such a way that advancing PrCs that don't have the cleric list (and maybe not even if the text said +1 cleric casting rather than +1 casting) are not considered 'known' to have the cleric list unless they specifically add the entire cleric lis

[dextercorvia]

Yeah, I'm with PBMC. There are two requirements for the class -- share a spell list with Cleric, and must worship a diety. Hathran fails the first test, Archivist fails the second.

[Anthrowhale]

I don't see a morale to hit or skill bonus for crown of glory. You mean another spell.


Are you looking at the one in Spell Compendium? (I think there might be multiple.)



Healer's vision requires a successful SA.


Which is commonly feasible given Hunter's Eye, grave strike, golem strike, vine strike and invisibility inside an AMF.



How are you making recitation's & divine protection's burst persistent?


You use ocular spell to convert into a ray with range 60', and then convert it into a persistent spell.



Also your interpretation of the initiate text in Races of the Dragon, while valid, is probably not RAI and a DM is definitely within his rights to interpret it opposite you: in such a way that advancing PrCs that don't have the cleric list (and maybe not even if the text said +1 cleric casting rather than +1 casting) are not considered 'known' to have the cleric list unless they specifically add the entire cleric lis


Yeah, I'm with PBMC. There are two requirements for the class -- share a spell list with Cleric, and must worship a diety. Hathran fails the first test, Archivist fails the second.

We can worry about the wording or the intent.

If we are worrying about precise wording. The text says "Any... class ... that uses the cleric spell list for spellcasting..." This Hathran undisputably uses the cleric spell list (amongst others). You could think "ah, but this class doesn't use L9 cleric spells", but then neither does a L3 Favored Soul which is specifically allowed as an example. I don't know any reasonable interpretation of the text such that this Hathran doesn't "use" the cleric spell list.

Intent is much harder to guess. I suspect that whoever wrote that rule intended it to apply only to a Favored Soul as that is the only base class I know of that satisfies. But, they might not have felt too perturbed if an Archivist/Radiant Servant of Pelor or Archivist/Shining Blade of Heironeous used the rule.

[dextercorvia]

We can worry about the wording or the intent.

If we are worrying about precise wording. The text says "Any... class ... that uses the cleric spell list for spellcasting..." This Hathran undisputably uses the cleric spell list (amongst others). You could think "ah, but this class doesn't use L9 cleric spells", but then neither does a L3 Favored Soul which is specifically allowed as an example. I don't know any reasonable interpretation of the text such that this Hathran doesn't "use" the cleric spell list.

Intent is much harder to guess. I suspect that whoever wrote that rule intended it to apply only to a Favored Soul as that is the only base class I know of that satisfies. But, they might not have felt too perturbed if an Archivist/Radiant Servant of Pelor or Archivist/Shining Blade of Heironeous used the rule.

When they refer to class, the mean class, not the character as a whole. You would have a better case if Hathran only advanced cleric casting. The class needs a spell list to apply the logic of DM15. This character uses the cleric spell list, but he doesn't have 3 levels in a class that uses the cleric spell list and requires he select a deity.

[Anthrowhale]

When they refer to class, the mean class, not the character as a whole.


Agreed.



You would have a better case if Hathran only advanced cleric casting.


Disagree. A favored soul that gains access to a domain should not become ineligible for an initiate feat.


The class needs a spell list to apply the logic of DM15.

Disagree. You appear to interpret "use" as "provides access", but there are plenty of other meanings for "use". One way is by advancing access. This seems like the crux here: "use" has a much broader meaning than you're thinking.



This character uses the cleric spell list, but he doesn't have 3 levels in a class that uses the cleric spell list and requires he select a deity.


Disagree. This Hathran uses the cleric spell list.

[Trenelus]

Don't all classes that are divine casters need to choose patron deity in Faerûn in order to cast spells?


(In fact, most people in Faerûn choose a deity as their patron.) It is simply impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one.

[dextercorvia]

This Hathran uses the cleric spell list.

But, Hathran as a class does not.

[Anthrowhale]

Don't all classes that are divine casters need to choose patron deity in Faerûn in order to cast spells?

That does seem correct. This implies we could take Initiate of Mystra at level 3, which would provide earlier access to arcane spells, a handy bonus.


But, Hathran as a class does not.

Hathrans as a class sometimes use the cleric spell list and sometime not.

The situation is similar to turning and rebuking. A cleric can turn or rebuke, but generally not both. If a feat required the use of turning, it would be available to clerics that can turn, even though some clerics can't turn.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Stupid spell compendium changes. That's what got me before. How I dislike that book.

I am of course aware of that old occular spell shenanigans but although it seems like it will still not work on recitation on closer inspection. Bursts either way seem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm) like they only function once. Persist it if you want, but the burst only happens once. Insert criticism of spell text writers here. On second thought it should work as desired for the caster but leads to much confusion for those 'in' the burst (both at casting time and after).


You appear to interpret "use" as "provides access", but there are plenty of other meanings for "use".Exactly, which is why I mentioned that although your interpretation can work. Other RAW interpretations make this not work.


That does seem correct. This implies we could take Initiate of Mystra at level 3, which would provide earlier access to arcane spells, a handy bonus.This rule would require having no cross-setting material to maintain consistency. I can't think of any eberron material this build uses though.


The situation is similar to turning and rebuking. A cleric can turn or rebuke, but generally not both. If a feat required the use of turning, it would be available to clerics that can turn, even though some clerics can't turn.This is a good analogy but isn't close enough. Add in dread necro and another prereq and then make a character that happens two fulfill both prerequisites in different ways while the feat indicates they shouldn't come from two different ways. That would bring people's apprehension.

Detailed peaching only because of the amount of work put

[Anthrowhale]

I am of course aware of that old occular spell shenanigans but although it seems like it will still not work on recitation on closer inspection.


I'm AFB for the next couple days, but if I recall correctly, Recitation doesn't need Ocular because it's range is fixed at 60'.

There is no exception for bursts in the persistent description. My interpretation is that the burst happens, but only those who happen to be in the burst at the moment that it happens benefit from the persisted spell.



This rule would require having no cross-setting material to maintain consistency. I can't think of any eberron material this build uses though.

Right, that was a goal for the build.



This is a good analogy but isn't close enough.


I don't know dread necro well enough to comment AFB.

There seem to be 3 points of contention:

Is advancing cleric spell list access a use of the cleric spell list? I say yes. This is the debate about the meaning of 'use'. A chair provides access to a seat, but it can be used as a stepping stool.

Is advancing cleric spell list access and advancing other lists advancing cleric spell list access? I say yes. This is where the example about a Favored Soul that picks up a domain is relevant.

Does a class that advances cleric sometimes and not othertimes qualify when it is used to advance cleric? I say yes, and here the turn or rebuke example is relevant.

[dextercorvia]

Suppose you needed 3 levels in a class that grants Turn Undead and you have a Cleric1/Radiant Servant of Pelor3 (Ignore other prereqs for a moment). Does this qualify you? RSoP advances turning, but doesn't grant it. This is like your Hathran.

[Anthrowhale]

Suppose you needed 3 levels in a class that grants Turn Undead and you have a Cleric1/Radiant Servant of Pelor3 (Ignore other prereqs for a moment). Does this qualify you? RSoP advances turning, but doesn't grant it. This is like your Hathran.

That's the first point. But the analogy is broken, because you keep thinking use=grant. But that is not so---use is much more general than grant. If you change "grants" to "uses" in your example, then yes you qualify.

[dextercorvia]

I think that is a stretch. I'll say that it is a better argument than some I've seen pass for RAW, but I remain unconvinced. To me for a class to use a spell list, it must somehow be inherent to the class.


(I'm also fixing the page glitch so that your post is visible.)

[Anthrowhale]

(I'm also fixing the page glitch so that your post is visible.)


Huh, the glitch seems to still be there. (it just got me.)


To me for a class to use a spell list, it must somehow be inherent to the class.

So, if there was a requirement of "use turning", you wouldn't let a cleric satisfy it, because not all clerics can turn?

I agree there is some ambiguity here, but commonly 'use' is much more general than 'grant'.

[dextercorvia]

No, but if it requires three levels in a class that 'uses' the turning checks mechanic, then we would need to look at specifics. That's where the parallel is skew.


Any character of a class that must select a deity and that
uses the cleric spell list for spellcasting...

Most classes don't grant a spell list -- they grant spellcasting with spells chosen from the given spell list. That is why the word uses is here rather than grants. Prestige classes that advance existing spellcasting do so (with extremely few exceptions) without regard to the list the spells come from.

There is an extra level of abstraction there. It's rather like saying that if I hire a plumber to fix a drain, I'm using a wrench.

[Anthrowhale]

That is why the word uses is here rather than grants.

This seems like an interpretation to me, rather than what's written.

I believe we need to accept disagreement here, because in the simplest interpretation of 'uses', I think it's fine to say that Hathran advancing archivist 'uses' the cleric spell list.

Disregarding that, we should agree that the build is legal, due to all archivists in Faerun requiring a patron deity.

[dextercorvia]

Disregarding that, we should agree that the build is legal, due to all archivists in Faerun requiring a patron deity.

On this, I think you have me. Also, I can agree to disagree on the other.

[Anthrowhale]

The Rules Compendium antimagic description make the use of permeable form in antimagic have unpredictable effects. See the discussion here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225533&page=3).

[candycorn]

I would like to point out that Incorporeal Creature + AMF = Creature that does not exist.

IoM allows permeable form to function in an AMF. It does, and it functions properly, rendering you incorporeal.

As an incorporeal creature, according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#antimagic), which is echoed in the Rules Compendium, Incorporeal Creatures of all types wink out in an Antimagic effect, reappearing when the effect is gone.