What Rolls should be Secret Rolls?

[RollynT.Glal]

After playing for a while and reading as many books I could get my hands on I was wondering what rolls a DM should make in secret. Such as Spot checks when the players don't know what they're looking for, or something of the like.

I understand that certain other rolls should be in the realm of the DM's control, Disable Device and Search so the players don't know whether poor results are from the roll or not.

So my question for the Playground is, What rolls should the DM keep from the players and accordingly what rolls should be available to the players to view?

[kardar233]

Anything that the characters wouldn't know whether they succeeded or failed.

[MukkTB]

Spot checks, sneak checks, anything where the character would have difficulty knowing how he did or that he was actually making a check.

Character just wandering around.
'Make a spot check.'
'I rolled an 8.'
'You see nothing.'
'We all huddle in a defensive formation.'
Hilarious but not exactly what you want to have happen.

Just write down the PC's sneak/hide/spot/listen checks at the beginning of the game and tell them to inform you if they change. Random encounters, random events, ect. should not be rolled in front of players.

Any combat actions by anyone should be rolled where everyone can clearly see them. It leaves the players feeling that the DM didn't cheat. Of course you can't cheat. You can't screw with the characters but you also can't save them from a killing blow.

[FearlessGnome]

Sense Motive. The best lies are on motive - not on fact, and the PCs should leave every conversation wondering if the kindly old NPC murders babies on the weekends.

[Curmudgeon]

Many of these "rolls" shouldn't be rolls at all. Outside of combat you're free to "take 10" on most things, including the PCs' reactive Spot and Listen checks. With known DCs and known "take 10" numbers, it's just a matter of distance penalties: seeing if the PCs come within their perception range to notice something.

[Waker]

In addition to the ones stated already, I would say Appraise.

[Abies]

Here's a really unpopular answer, but one that I've always felt was necessary for honest roleplaying. PC damage rolls, as in damage PCs take. Time and again it is said HP are a non-real measure of health, but so long as players actually know their current actual HP they know exactly what risks to take. I prefer to tell my players "you are very hurt" or "barely scratched" or whatever.
It works in my games, but I play only with old friends so...

[RollynT.Glal]

Sorry about taking so long to return. So far they all seem like fantastic suggestions!

Abies- I like the idea, keeping the details thematic is always a huge goal of mine.

Waker- I work retail and haggling is always fun, especially when the person doesn't know how much the object is actually worth. :smallwink: I want to put some bartering scenes in my game so this will see use!

Curmudgeon- True but you're ignoring the luck aspect of the roll itself. You can take ten, but maybe your character is distracted with an internal monologue or particularly focused on her surroundings today. Either way taking ten is acceptable but where's the fun in being average all the time?

FearlessGnome- Planning out some great NPC's with that in mind

MukkTB- I hate it when that happens, it ruins the failure.

As I said thanks everyone for the input.

[arguskos]

Anything that the characters wouldn't know whether they succeeded or failed.
Bingo. That's how I do it. For instance, if my players make a Bluff check, my opposed Sense Motive is secret. They can only judge from the NPC reaction how they did (this helps in that I don't use the standard social skill rules, instead letting checks add ad-hoc modifiers to an NPC's secret Attitude score; I need to really write this out formally sometime).

[jiriku]

Anything that the characters wouldn't know whether they succeeded or failed.

I'd qualify and say any roll for which characters wouldn't know whether they succeeded or failed, AND you expect that player behavior would probably change in a significant way if the player did know. If a player is rolling Hide to cross a courtyard full of sentries as he breaks out of a castle, there's no point in hiding the roll - he's got to cross that courtyard no matter what, and once he's out there he's not turning back. OTOH, if he's rolling Bluff to get INTO the castle, and Sense Motive to judge whether the guard bought his Bluff, a concealed roll or two might be appropriate, because the player's likely to take significantly different actions if he believes his bluff failed.

[Curmudgeon]

Here's a really unpopular answer, but one that I've always felt was necessary for honest roleplaying. PC damage rolls, as in damage PCs take. Time and again it is said HP are a non-real measure of health, but so long as players actually know their current actual HP they know exactly what risks to take. I prefer to tell my players "you are very hurt" or "barely scratched" or whatever.
I like this, too. I tell people their condition using the terms in the Status (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/status.htm) spell, and add "lightly wounded" (still 80% or more of maximum HP), "blooded" (½ of maximum HP or less) and "critical" (20% of maximum HP or less).

[Coidzor]

Passive Spot and Listen checks. Most passive checks, really.


Curmudgeon- True but you're ignoring the luck aspect of the roll itself. You can take ten, but maybe your character is distracted with an internal monologue or particularly focused on her surroundings today. Either way taking ten is acceptable but where's the fun in being average all the time?

Not failing a routine, easy task because of some random inappropriate internal monologue, perhaps? :smallconfused:

[Curmudgeon]

Curmudgeon- True but you're ignoring the luck aspect of the roll itself. You can take ten, but maybe your character is distracted with an internal monologue or particularly focused on her surroundings today. Either way taking ten is acceptable but where's the fun in being average all the time?
A character using finely honed skills with "take 10" is nowhere close to average. Average is what you get when you try to use trained-only skills without any training: no DC above 10 is possible.