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Rakmakallan
2011-11-24, 05:29 AM
'Ello everyone, long time no see. The subject of real world science vs. rpg/fantasy/sci-fi science has been brought up a thousand times and each time it ended with a wizard having done it and the death of catgirls.
This time I'd like to suggest something different I've been pondering about for a game of mine. Assuming a narrativist-simulationist and much less gamist setting (as per the forge's definitions, for those not familiar, more storytelling less killing, in short) and an explanation of magic as "what happens momentarily between conversions of energy", what would become of various elements of fantasy, not limited to D&D but going everywhere to Amber, Nobilis, Everway and sci-fi, such as Dune or even more far-fetched examples such as Imajica?
To give a short example: the existence of races has to have followed some evolutionary schematic. In this sense, if humans are Homo sapiens, for orcs and elves to be able to mate with them, they would have to be at most a subspecies, based on the biological definition of a species. So, Homo sapiens ferus and Homo sapiens saltus, respectively. Dwarfs cannot mate so they are at least a different species, if not a genus: Homo sessilis.

It is a given that most things will simply be unable to exist. Simultaneously, the setting as explained by science has to be fit for heroics, horror and everything that would be expected from fantasy. Sorry for the bogus post, but this has been quite a mental exercise for quite some time and it's always coming down to removing stuff from the game.

Reluctance
2011-11-24, 06:09 AM
Ring species. Read up on them. They dispel the idea that species is as clear cut as people like to think it is. Although I'm partial to a campaign explanation of mine that's only a little magical.

"Gamism" needn't necessarily translate to "killing ****". Combat is the most popular way to "win the game", primarily because combat has the most rules, but char op has fun with all sorts on noncombat mechanics too.

And the key words are always "willing suspension of disbelief". Nonmagical characters flying by flapping their arms breaks that. "Mundane" high-level characters being less like an olympic athlete and more like Hercules is kind of why people play the game. And actively looking for reasons why things in a fantasy world wouldn't cut it in our real one is a good way to not get invited to any more games.

Eldan
2011-11-24, 06:12 AM
I agree on Ring Species.

That said, for me elves are Homo sapiens gracilis, and orcs Homo sapiens robustus.

Edit: Now explain dragons :smalltongue: (Dragonism is an extremely mutagenic prionic disease).

Rakmakallan
2011-11-24, 06:28 AM
I agree on Ring Species.

That said, for me elves are Homo sapiens gracilis, and orcs Homo sapiens robustus.

Edit: Now explain dragons :smalltongue: (Dragonism is an extremely mutagenic prionic disease).
Ring species work to some extent. If we bring the full biogeographical brunt to the game, we have to assume at some point endemic elven subraces whose reproduction would be problematic and so on.
The point for me lies in the edit about dragons. Humanoid taxonomy is the least of issues. Problems arise as soon as you try to insert supernatural abilities and spells to the game. Could there be a far-fetched explanation to these using physics/biology/chemistry? How would you reflect this rules-wise, apart from going for a low/no magic setting?

RedWarlock
2011-11-24, 06:39 AM
Heh, I could do dragons.. It really depends on what you consider their alternate form to do, magically, and giving it a bit of intellect. (Dragons are inherently magical creatures, and they only crossbreed while emulating humanoids or other creatures, to my knowledge. In a stricter universe, they wouldn't be able to breed at all.)

My theory is that the unmatched chromosomes in the reproductive cells are phased recessively, while the common chromosomes are reshaped to match the genetics of the simulated species, until the body retakes draconic form (or is otherwise considered 'severed' from the original dragon). Conception likely happening very quickly, they're still in humanoid form, until either the dragon changes back, or the conception itself happens, severing the magical connection to the parent. The resulting conceptus then has the magical effect wear off, taking the common shared chromosomes with it, basically brute-forcing the genetics to survive when when it wouldn't normally be possible. The phased unmatched chromosomes return in full, presenting the genetics of the dragon's magical heritage overtop.

The resulting genetic sequence retains the dormant magical essence from the draconic side, and can continue to reproduce with members of the non-dragon parent species, preserving the draconic traits in distant bloodlines. (This enables resurgences like the Dragon Disciple and any other dragonblooded post-adulthood awakening of draconic power.)

Eldan
2011-11-24, 07:15 AM
Ring species work to some extent. If we bring the full biogeographical brunt to the game, we have to assume at some point endemic elven subraces whose reproduction would be problematic and so on.
The point for me lies in the edit about dragons. Humanoid taxonomy is the least of issues. Problems arise as soon as you try to insert supernatural abilities and spells to the game. Could there be a far-fetched explanation to these using physics/biology/chemistry? How would you reflect this rules-wise, apart from going for a low/no magic setting?

I didn't mean the flying and fire-breathing capabilities so much, as the question how they are able to reproduce with anything alive and corporeal.

That includes such absurdities as half-dragon ants.

Alternatively, dragons have plasmids.

DiBastet
2011-11-24, 08:07 AM
Bacteria aside, the mental image of scientists of the setting explaining dragon magic based on the ADAM of Bioshock came as real scary...

The Reverend
2011-11-24, 09:33 AM
Dragons like all magical creatures have a genetic structure that branches off into 5 dimensions. When the breed with non dragons their "Extended" genetic code is attached to the other parents genetic code. This draconic extension is attached to the rest of the code and will continue to be passed on thru the gene line sometimes going dormant for generations only to reopen when exposed to arcane energies, life threatening situations, and other abnormal stimuli.

Reluctance
2011-11-24, 10:05 AM
First explain to me the scientific rationale for their ability to fly, to use breath weapons, to metabolize inorganic material, and for the older ones to not collapse under their own weight. Then give me a scientific reason how they're able to take on human(oid) form.

The science glitch is in the idea that magically changing your shape will change your germ line just enough to be fertile with whatever else, while still giving them traits of your original form. At that point, shrug at the ability and say "it's magic".

Eldan
2011-11-24, 10:16 AM
Okay. Point by poitn?

Flight: easy (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Quetzfeedingwittonnaish2008.png).

Fire: Not quite breath, but close enough. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle)

Inorganic material: Chemolithoauthotrophy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemolithoautotroph) I love that word.

Size: They probably wouldn't have the commonly portrayed shapes.

Humanoid shape: yeah. Won't happen.

pffh
2011-11-24, 11:01 AM
For explaining dragons watch the mockumentary Dragons: A fantasy made real it's quite interesting.

Rakmakallan
2011-11-24, 12:37 PM
Since we got into dragons, this is in due order
How dragons fly, an explanation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0j0Bjy6hFc&feature=related)
On another note, something kind of harder: shapeshifting. Aaaaaand debate.

Jay R
2011-11-24, 01:26 PM
My introduction to the last game I ran (The Staves of the Wanderers) included this:

A warning about meta-knowledge. In a game in which stone gargoyles can fly and people can cast magic spells, modern rules of physics and chemistry simply don’t apply. There aren’t 92 natural elements, lightning is not caused by an imbalance of electrical potential, and stars are not gigantic gaseous bodies undergoing nuclear fusion. Cute stunts involving clever use of the laws of thermodynamics simply won’t work. Note that cute stunts involving the gross effects thereof very likely will work. Roll a stone down a mountain, and you could cause an avalanche. But in a world with teleportation, levitation, and fireball spells, Newton’s three laws of motion do not apply, and energy and momentum are not conserved. Accordingly, modern scientific meta-knowledge will do you more harm than good. On the other hand, knowledge of Aristotle, Ptolemy, medieval alchemy, or medieval and classical legends might be useful occasionally.

(In fact, the was the first hint to something they would eventually have enough clues to figure out in the sixth adventure - the stars were as described in Ptolemy, the planets wee the seven wandering stars, and the seven "Staves of the Wanderers" they were guarding each represented the powers of a single planet.

Eldan
2011-11-24, 01:28 PM
Shapeshifting...

Not rapidly. Perhaps a slow, metamorphosis-like process.

Okay. New theory. Dragons have several life stages. They have larval stages that look like humans. Then they metamorphose into something like fire-producing Quetzalcoatlus.

The first stage does not reproduce sexually in the conventional sense. Instead, they can have sex with human females, but instead of sperm, they transmit a teratogenic compound, which changes the human female's egg cells, so that the next time she would get pregnant, another dragon larva is produced.

Edit: ^Oh, I so do that in my games. "Sperm? What is this *sperm* you talk off? Do you mean Animalculi?"

Acidic_Cakes
2011-11-24, 01:53 PM
I remember I was once in a campaign that took place inside of a Ptolemaic solar system. If we flew up high enough, we would hit the crystal globe that the stars were affixed to.

Eldan
2011-11-24, 02:00 PM
Oh, totally.

Did you know that arrows fly in a straight line until their energy is gone, then fall straight to the ground?

I also wrote a short essay once explaining various chemical effects in terms of the four elements, but I can't find it anymore.

Iron rusts because placing it in water leads to the iron water being drawn out (because the same elements attract each other), so that there's, relatively, more fire and air in the iron, which makes it red (fire) and crumbly (air).

Krazzman
2011-11-24, 03:25 PM
Dwarfs cannot mate so they are at least a different species, if not a genus: Homo sessilis.


You sure? Then explain RoS to me please. I haven't found a real wording about a Dwarf not being able to mate...seriously a Dwarf and Elf might not be able to mate but considering the unholy book (BoEF) they have chance to get pregnant (5% I believe).

The Reverend
2011-11-24, 05:53 PM
Within each cell dragons have a dragachondiria. It is complex organnel that uses the Kasamir effect to pull immense amounts of energy from the pure vacum inside its twisting surface. The draconis fundamental is not in fact a magical furnace but a large grouping of tissue in which 95% of the cell space of this tissue is made of dragachondria . The dragon uses this energy for a myriad of different processes. For example it uses its large wings as electrostatic discharge surfaces and magnetic emitters allowing it to fly.

Eldan
2011-11-24, 06:22 PM
Not sure that would work.

I read that same article. They first had to get a mirror to vibrate (or was it rotate?) at near light speed. That uses a lot of energy. More than biologics could probably feasibly produce. And it certainly doesn't just create energy.

llamamushroom
2011-11-24, 10:23 PM
pffh mentioned the documentary, but you might be interested in the "physics" in Dragons: a Fantasy Made Real. Essentially, they posit that dragons evolved from dinosaurs, specifically raptors (not flying reptiles such as good old Quetzalcoatlus Skybax). They developed a different kind of gastrointestinal tract that included a gas bladder, and specialised gut flora that produced hydrogen.

That bladder gave them the additional lift required for such heavy creatures to fly, and also had a direct line to the sinuses or something. There was a connection to the mouth (or possibly nose, it's been a while and they didn't go into much detail), which had a valve that let the H2 out. Then, at the front of the mouth, the dragons had a way of making sparks (I think they had to get flint or something and hold it there).

So, the more a dragon roasted, the less it could fly.

Personally, I like your bombardier beetle system more, but perhaps one or two rare, unrelated animals that have a system similar to the above could add a level of mystique to the dragons.

And dragons as epic butterflies is too awesome for words. Kobolds, then, could be explained as draconic ants/bees/termites/other social insects.

Hmm... That could make for an interesting campaign...

Anderlith
2011-11-25, 02:16 AM
Look into Shadowrun. The different races are just subsets of homo sapiens & magic can be described within science

LibraryOgre
2011-11-25, 08:08 AM
I agree on Ring Species.

That said, for me elves are Homo sapiens gracilis, and orcs Homo sapiens robustus.

Edit: Now explain dragons :smalltongue: (Dragonism is an extremely mutagenic prionic disease).

Black dragons are Draco causticus sputem, actually. :smallbiggrin:

However, I tend to be simulationist in background, and gamist in play... I want a well-researched, plausible, background, but I want a smooth-flowing game in play. Thus, if I consider things like evolutionary tracks, I also consider that, on many worlds, you have the species developing in completely separate environments, and overt evidence of intelligent design (i.e. Orcs are Orcs because Gruumsh made them orcs). You also throw in a source of energy that is known to cause unpredictable mutations in high concentrations (i.e. magic), and you get close enough to plausible for me.

I actually tend to have more problems with high-level characters being like Hercules, but I also don't like the upper levels that much.

Eldan
2011-11-25, 10:00 AM
Black dragons are Draco causticus sputem, actually. :smallbiggrin:.

Hmm. Dragon breath weapons as (sub) species...

Draco pyropneus (red), Draco cryopneus (white), Draco caustopneus (green), Draco caustophlegma (black)...

Am I forgetting any?

Ravens_cry
2011-11-25, 10:16 AM
Edit: Now explain dragons :smalltongue: (Dragonism is an extremely mutagenic prionic disease).
Dragons are inherently magical beings. It's how they fly with wings so small and mass so big, it's how they breath things notoriously antithetical to life without killing themselves in the process.

The Glyphstone
2011-11-25, 10:19 AM
Hmm. Dragon breath weapons as (sub) species...

Draco pyropneus (red), Draco cryopneus (white), Draco caustopneus (green), Draco caustophlegma (black)...

Am I forgetting any?

Draco fulgurphlegma (Blue).

Eldan
2011-11-25, 10:33 AM
Dragons are inherently magical beings. It's how they fly with wings so small and mass so big, it's how they breath things notoriously antithetical to life without killing themselves in the process.

Oh, sure. but this thread isn't about magic. It's about pseudoscience. Which has all the advantages of magic, but more of the fun. :smalltongue:

Ravens_cry
2011-11-25, 10:54 AM
Oh, sure. but this thread isn't about magic. It's about pseudoscience. Which has all the advantages of magic, but more of the fun. :smalltongue:
All right, pseudoscience you say?
*flexes fingers*
Dragons gnaw on cavorite ore, which their notoriously efficient digestive systems convert into elemental cavorite (http://www.steampunkwiki.com/wiki/Cavorite), the wings been there for propulsion and steering. This is even supported by the lore, as if you use the listed weights and sizes for dragons their density is ridiculously low.
Since dragons aren't made of packing foam, they must be reducing their mass. Hence, cavorite.

Eldan
2011-11-25, 10:56 AM
And here I thought they used internal superconductors to cause quantum locking with the earth's magnetic field.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-25, 11:04 AM
And here I thought they used internal superconductors to cause quantum locking with the earth's magnetic field.
That's just plain ole silly!:smalltongue:
But in all seriousness, a blimp propelled by wings is an actual thing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MH7cE_mCOk), and I know there is a human powered one as well. Substitute "blimp" for "anti-gravity material" and it's actually pretty feasible.

The Glyphstone
2011-11-25, 11:05 AM
Nonsense. Their blood contains unobtanium, like human blood contains iron.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-25, 11:16 AM
Nonsense. Their blood contains unobtanium, like human blood contains iron.
Unobtanium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Core)is useful because it creates more electricity the higher the pressure, and so is favoured by dwarves who dig too greedily, can't have your mining machine fail before you reach the Balrog after all.

Rakmakallan
2011-11-25, 11:39 AM
Oh, sure. but this thread isn't about magic. It's about pseudoscience. Which has all the advantages of magic, but more of the fun. :smalltongue:
Not exactly, it's speculation of fantasy phenomena without breaking any natural laws, assuming magic is just another application of these laws (my idea actually is that various elements and alloys can be used as catalysts to trigger reactions beyond their activation energy).

As for high-level characters, the glitch is inherent in the advancement system. I think you might need to find an alternate means of progression, set a low level cap or severely cripple certain class abilities and/or proceed to mass bans.

The Glyphstone
2011-11-25, 11:42 AM
Unobtanium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Core)is useful because it creates more electricity the higher the pressure, and so is favoured by dwarves who dig too greedily, can't have your mining machine fail before you reach the Balrog after all.

It also superconducts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_%282009_film%29) to the degree of being able to levitate in a planet's magnetic field.

Eldan
2011-11-25, 05:26 PM
It also superconducts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_%282009_film%29) to the degree of being able to levitate in a planet's magnetic field.

Ah. So, as I said.

Dragons eat it and then Quantum-lock themselves.

LibraryOgre
2011-11-30, 12:26 AM
Hmm. Dragon breath weapons as (sub) species...

Draco pyropneus (red), Draco cryopneus (white), Draco caustopneus (green), Draco caustophlegma (black)...

Am I forgetting any?

Actually, take a look at the 1st edition Monster Manuals, or the 2e Draconomicon (for FR). They give the "scientific names" for the various dragon species. We tended to giggle the most about "Draco causticus sputem", though

Rakmakallan
2011-11-30, 01:29 AM
Based on Mark Hall's signature, I would like to shift the conversation slightly from manners dragons fly and procreate, to verisimilitude versus realism. Where the first ends and the latter begins. I have read a blog post that mentions that the answer to anyone complaining about realism is "You are an elf using magic". But what if elves are a product of evolution and magic is perfectly consistent with every law of nature, technically however this stripping it of any supernatural or otherworldly or alternate reality effect? How can we explain everything in the world, from dragons, to floating cities, to magic, as elements fully coherent with contemporary science? Not magitech, not sci-fi. Something that theoretically is entirely possible but for one reason or another (be it history, be it stochastic phenomena etc.) does not exist in our world.

Tvtyrant
2011-11-30, 01:35 AM
All right, pseudoscience you say?
*flexes fingers*
Dragons gnaw on cavorite ore, which their notoriously efficient digestive systems convert into elemental cavorite (http://www.steampunkwiki.com/wiki/Cavorite), the wings been there for propulsion and steering. This is even supported by the lore, as if you use the listed weights and sizes for dragons their density is ridiculously low.
Since dragons aren't made of packing foam, they must be reducing their mass. Hence, cavorite.

You got your hard science fiction in my fantasy!

I approve :smallamused:

Eric Tolle
2011-11-30, 02:20 PM
This time I'd like to suggest something different I've been pondering about for a game of mine. Assuming a narrativist-simulationist and much less gamist setting (as per the forge's definitions, for those not familiar, more storytelling less killing, in short) and an explanation of magic as "what happens momentarily between conversions of energy",

Honestly, I can't parse that phrase.

But if you want a "real-world physics" concept for magic, I kind of like the Centauri Knights concept. A Utility Fog can be used to create objects from "nothing", or manipulate, communicate, or sense things from a distance. Light and sound illusions or healing would be possible. An array of tens of thousands of microscopic diode lasers could even make a good approximation of a fireball. The limitation would be the knowledge of the user (especially when making constructs), and the power capacity of the foglets.


what would become of various elements of fantasy, not limited to D&D but going everywhere to Amber, Nobilis, Everway and sci-fi, such as Dune or even more far-fetched examples such as Imajica?


Well ya gotta have dragons, but nothing says they have to fly. Grab your genetic engineering tubes, kit-bash a tyranosaur or spinosaurus, mod it for intelligence, thumbsi and utility fog manipulation, give it the ability to spit acid, and there ya go!

Flying humanoids are a similar feat- gene modify humans to be the size of eight year-old children, give them a creatinine, arms twice as long as normal, and six-foot long little fingers. Stretch skin flaps between the tips of the little fingers and the knees, and bam! Sentient pterosaurs!

The science behind these concepts is dodgy as heck, and I've conveniently handwaved away any side effects or unwanted consequences. But it doesn't quite violate laws of physics.

LibraryOgre
2011-11-30, 11:18 PM
Based on Mark Hall's signature, I would like to shift the conversation slightly from manners dragons fly and procreate, to verisimilitude versus realism. Where the first ends and the latter begins. I have read a blog post that mentions that the answer to anyone complaining about realism is "You are an elf using magic". But what if elves are a product of evolution and magic is perfectly consistent with every law of nature, technically however this stripping it of any supernatural or otherworldly or alternate reality effect? How can we explain everything in the world, from dragons, to floating cities, to magic, as elements fully coherent with contemporary science? Not magitech, not sci-fi. Something that theoretically is entirely possible but for one reason or another (be it history, be it stochastic phenomena etc.) does not exist in our world.

As a GM and a player, I like my simulationism in the background, and my gamism in the foreground. I want a world set up so it seems very realistic, down to a logical basis for magic that usually works (aside from occasional edge cases and plot points)... to put it simply, I want to play by Newtonian physics, even if we occasionally run into things that only make sense in an Einsteinian or quantum universe.

Some creatures do work just fine as special creations... I don't have any problems with Dragonlance's stance that dragons (and other races) are the special creations of the gods, and so you don't necessarily have a line of evolutionary ancestry for every race. Maybe elves ARE made in God's image... it's just that "God" in this case is an androgynene named Correllon.

However, I also like things to come down to "Is it playable?" When I'm sitting around a table, I want to determine weather with 2d10 and a chart, not a series of calculations that takes a meteorologist and a professional computer to figure out.

Acidic_Cakes
2011-12-01, 01:29 AM
I am of the opinion that dragons simply ingest a large number of pigeons. The pigeons remain alive in the dragons gizzard, and are constantly flapping upward, which provides lift, and the friction from the feathers perpetually moving against each other provides enough friction to ignite a flame, which explains the breath weapon.

Pigeons are in fact the secret to all of dungeons and dragons' magical creatures. An owlbear? Just a regular bear with half a dozen pigeons stuck to its face.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-01, 02:01 AM
You got your hard science fiction in my fantasy!

I approve :smallamused:
I believe I said almost exactly that earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222563).
Mass reduction is hardly 'hard' science fiction, but if you are going to break one law of physics, it might as well be a doozy, and everything else is pretty plausible within my limited knowledge
A hypergolic mixture could provide a fairly plausible fire breath, like a scaled up bombardier beetle, and acid breath could simply be concentrated vomit.
Heh, I am suddenly imagining a dragon horking like a cat with a furball for 1d4 rounds before spewing everyone within reach.

Tvtyrant
2011-12-02, 02:39 AM
I believe I said almost exactly that earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222563).
Mass reduction is hardly 'hard' science fiction, but if you are going to break one law of physics, it might as well be a doozy, and everything else is pretty plausible within my limited knowledge
A hypergolic mixture could provide a fairly plausible fire breath, like a scaled up bombardier beetle, and acid breath could simply be concentrated vomit.
Heh, I am suddenly imagining a dragon horking like a cat with a furball for 1d4 rounds before spewing everyone within reach.

Or it could work like a spitting viper, but its venom sacks refill from larger sacks in the belly. Then it has to refill the smaller sacks between sprays, but still has plenty to keep firing.

If it fires Potassium it would actually set fire to the creatures it spits on without having to deal with fire shooting out of its mouth, since the water in the body would react with the Potassium. Its kept in an oily pouch that keeps that from happening to the dragon of course.

Dr.Orpheus
2011-12-02, 12:59 PM
Science has proved dragons could exist I have 3 books on that subject.
The question that I have is what is the knowlage/craft DC to invent or create modern technology?
Even without magic I have had epic level experts/exemplars make plasma guns, lasers guns or swords, mechsuits, and Bose-Einstein condensate grenades they are all possible, but they are hard to make even by today's standards.

Beleriphon
2011-12-02, 04:13 PM
A hypergolic mixture could provide a fairly plausible fire breath, like a scaled up bombardier beetle, and acid breath could simply be concentrated vomit.
Heh, I am suddenly imagining a dragon horking like a cat with a furball for 1d4 rounds before spewing everyone within reach.

The other thing to keep in mind is that your can get similar effects for fire breath using oxygen reactive chemical compounds.

Also, blue dragons might use a biological system similar to electric eels or electric rays. The eels can get upwards of 600 volts, and the rays can get up to 220 volts using internal organs. Scale those organs up a few dozen times and I'd imagine you could produce some pretty massive electrical discharges.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-02, 04:28 PM
The trouble with a plausible electrical attack is range. Electric eels are underwater,in an environment that is fairly conductive, but air is pretty good insulator or you would get a shock every time you took out a plug.
Still, maybe?
Now to work on a cold weapon. Something cold enough to do contact damage yet not do damage to the meat creature making it could be difficult.

gkathellar
2011-12-02, 05:13 PM
Pigeons are in fact the secret to all of dungeons and dragons' magical creatures. An owlbear? Just a regular bear with half a dozen pigeons stuck to its face.

Well, except for the Lady of Pain. She's made of squirrels instead of pigeons, which is why she's so much more powerful.

Eldan
2011-12-02, 06:48 PM
The trouble with a plausible electrical attack is range. Electric eels are underwater,in an environment that is fairly conductive, but air is pretty good insulator or you would get a shock every time you took out a plug.
Still, maybe?
Now to work on a cold weapon. Something cold enough to do contact damage yet not do damage to the meat creature making it could be difficult.

The mythbusters tested a gun that shot a jet of salt water, then electrified that. Didn't really work well, IIRC, but it's an idea.

gkathellar
2011-12-02, 08:20 PM
The mythbusters tested a gun that shot a jet of salt water, then electrified that. Didn't really work well, IIRC, but it's an idea.

What about something like a biological taser? A long tongue, or thousands of microscopic strands to carry an electrical impulse? That would explain why a Reflex save is quick enough to reduce the damage from an electrical attack.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-02, 08:34 PM
What about something like a biological taser? A long tongue, or thousands of microscopic strands to carry an electrical impulse? That would explain why a Reflex save is quick enough to reduce the damage from an electrical attack.
It would have to be a continuous, laminar stream as the circuit is literally broken if it breaks into droplets, as was found when they tested electrocution by urination on the third rail. Also, just because you see a stream with the naked eye, does not mean it is actually continuous, as the high speed showed.
I don't know if this would be easier with a viscous fluid, but my instinct is yes, but said instincts have been wrong before.

gkathellar
2011-12-02, 08:56 PM
It would have to be a continuous, laminar stream as the circuit is literally broken if it breaks into droplets, as was found when they tested electrocution by urination on the third rail. Also, just because you see a stream with the naked eye, does not mean it is actually continuous, as the high speed showed.
I don't know if this would be easier with a viscous fluid, but my instinct is yes, but said instincts have been wrong before.

That's why I suggested a tongue, or some kind of strands. That would provide a solid conductor which could be quickly extended and retracted.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-02, 09:01 PM
That's why I suggested a tongue, or some kind of strands. That would provide a solid conductor which could be quickly extended and retracted.
It does mean with the tongue that it is basically a single target effect. Still, the image of a blue dragon flicking its tongue out like a frog or chameleon does have a certain appeal.

Lyndworm
2011-12-02, 09:07 PM
Science has proved dragons could exist I have 3 books on that subject.
Do you mind letting me know the names of those books? I'm always interested in speculative biology.

gkathellar
2011-12-02, 11:25 PM
It does mean with the tongue that it is basically a single target effect. Still, the image of a blue dragon flicking its tongue out like a frog or chameleon does have a certain appeal.

Well, it's a line effect with limited range, dragons are generally pretty big, and the damage comes from the electricity, not the impact — so the tongue could very easily just brush past everyone in a line for a moment as it flicks out, electrocuting them before it withdraws nigh-instantaneously.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-02, 11:50 PM
It would have to be a long, extremely thin line, so it moves and accelerates fast enough. Still, it sounds plausible enough.
I am also liking the conductive saliva spray as well.

Eldan
2011-12-03, 08:21 AM
Hmm. Is silk conductive? I'll have to go look it up.

Edit: Only badly, it seems.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-03, 02:00 PM
Hmm. Is silk conductive? I'll have to go look it up.

Edit: Only badly, it seems.
Salt water is, so it isn't *too* implausible to imagine a trail of especially thick, salty sputum.

Beleriphon
2011-12-04, 12:42 PM
The trouble with a plausible electrical attack is range. Electric eels are underwater,in an environment that is fairly conductive, but air is pretty good insulator or you would get a shock every time you took out a plug.
Still, maybe?

Keeping mind that if you can generate a large enough electrical charge it will arc quite a distance, in the case of lightning up to several miles. In large transformer discharges the arc can be a up to a hundred feet.


Now to work on a cold weapon. Something cold enough to do contact damage yet not do damage to the meat creature making it could be difficult.

There's lots of things that are super cold. Just justify why a creature stores liquid N2 or O2 in some kind of internal sack and then sprays it on stuff. That should be enough to do damage on contact.

zakhmi
2011-12-04, 12:46 PM
the discussion is deviating from the main post..:smallredface:

gkathellar
2011-12-04, 01:02 PM
Keeping mind that if you can generate a large enough electrical charge it will arc quite a distance, in the case of lightning up to several miles. In large transformer discharges the arc can be a up to a hundred feet.

But can you aim it?


There's lots of things that are super cold. Just justify why a creature stores liquid N2 or O2 in some kind of internal sack and then sprays it on stuff. That should be enough to do damage on contact.

I'd think a cold pack-esque thing would be more likely — a jet of chemicals that "go cold" when mixed or jarred in some way. Assuming that's chemically plausible, since I have no idea how cold packs actually work.


the discussion is deviating from the main post..:smallredface:

I see you haven't been on the internet for very long.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-04, 01:52 PM
I'd think a cold pack-esque thing would be more likely — a jet of chemicals that "go cold" when mixed or jarred in some way. Assuming that's chemically plausible, since I have no idea how cold packs actually work.


It's an endothermic reaction (http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_ideas/Chem_p081.shtml), it absorbs energy rather than radiate it.
Two separate jets of chemicals, mixing together in mid air and hitting the targets sounds plausible to this one.
More so than sacks of liquid nitrogen or carbon dioxide for a meat creature in my opinion.

Dr.Orpheus
2011-12-04, 05:50 PM
Do you mind letting me know the names of those books? I'm always interested in speculative biology.

There was a history or discovery channel thing about them and a book called The Flight of Dragons by Peter Dickinson. Thats all I can find sense I moved a few boxes of books to the garage.

Lyndworm
2011-12-04, 07:00 PM
Thank you very much for that. After doing a little bit of research on the subject, it seems that Dickinson's book, at least, doesn't prove much of anything at all. It simply speculates that dragon-like creatures may have evolved, and how they may have been capable of producing flame and sufficient lift to achieve flight.

Really, it's very similar to Dragons: A Fantasy Made Real (and probably inspired that show) in that it theorizes that dragons have hydrogen-producing bacteria in their guts. The real difference is that Dickinson has a slightly more logical explanation of wings and much more logical explanation for gas-enabled buoyancy.

To elaborate; the Animal Planet special supposes that dragons developed hydrogen stored inside their bodies and six limbs, one set of which evolved into wings; Dickinson supposes that dragons stored hydrogen inside their bodies at several time atmospheric pressure, and that this pressure supported their bodies while freeing the rib cage to evolve into wings, similar to Kuehneosaurus.

Keep in mind that this is an opinion based solely on what little the Internet has to offer on the matter, and that I've not actually read Dickinson's work.

Eldan
2011-12-04, 07:12 PM
How would a creature full of hydrogen actually land?

gkathellar
2011-12-04, 07:38 PM
Expel their ballast?

Jeraa
2011-12-04, 07:42 PM
How would a creature full of hydrogen actually land?

By expelling the hydrogen somehow. Which could possibly be ignited, creating dragon fire as well.

Lyndworm
2011-12-04, 08:42 PM
The hydrogen only makes the dragon lighter, not neutrally buoyant. If it stops actively flying, it will certain fall and injure itself or possibly die.

If it expelled the gas it wouldn't just land, it would be incapable of taking off again, likely for several days.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-04, 08:50 PM
Expel their ballast?

Expelling their ballast would make them rise, not descend.

gkathellar
2011-12-04, 10:21 PM
Oh. Well, that's what I get for mixing up my submarine terminology.

Delwugor
2011-12-05, 12:32 AM
I haven't found a real wording about a Dwarf not being able to mate.
Let me assure you that Dwarfs mate and are extremely good at it!

Eldan
2011-12-05, 08:08 AM
Ah, just some Hydrogen to counter some of the mass. Of course.

And here I was thinking of dragon-blimps.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-05, 08:38 AM
Ah, just some Hydrogen to counter some of the mass. Of course.

And here I was thinking of dragon-blimps.
They would have to be more bloated looking than the dragons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWiZs4NsJY4) in the animated film "Flight of Dragons" for it to make that much difference unfortunately
Also, all that bloat means lots if air resistance. Ever pulled along a balloon by a string against the wind? It's harder than it looks.

One Tin Soldier
2011-12-05, 03:18 PM
On a related note, since we're talking about dragons here, I have thought of a pseudosciencey way that dragons change shape, though it is a ways removed from d&d dragons.

Basically, dragons exist in 4 physical dimensions, and have 2 "sides" to their body: a human-shaped one and a dragon-shaped one. They can move their bodies to switch which body is in the same plane as everyone else at will, thus appearing to transform and change mass and such.

Of course, this way they can only switch back and forth between two particular forms, but I find it acceptably sciencey. Just thought I'd shamelessly plug the fiction I use this in mention it.

Dr.Orpheus
2011-12-07, 03:15 AM
Thank you very much for that. After doing a little bit of research on the subject, it seems that Dickinson's book, at least, doesn't prove much of anything at all. It simply speculates that dragon-like creatures may have evolved, and how they may have been capable of producing flame and sufficient lift to achieve flight.

Really, it's very similar to Dragons: A Fantasy Made Real (and probably inspired that show) in that it theorizes that dragons have hydrogen-producing bacteria in their guts. The real difference is that Dickinson has a slightly more logical explanation of wings and much more logical explanation for gas-enabled buoyancy.

To elaborate; the Animal Planet special supposes that dragons developed hydrogen stored inside their bodies and six limbs, one set of which evolved into wings; Dickinson supposes that dragons stored hydrogen inside their bodies at several time atmospheric pressure, and that this pressure supported their bodies while freeing the rib cage to evolve into wings, similar to Kuehneosaurus.

Keep in mind that this is an opinion based solely on what little the Internet has to offer on the matter, and that I've not actually read Dickinson's work.

Yah the flight of dragons book is kind of old so you would likely find it on e bay, amazon, or at a used book store. I found it at my grandparents house.