Wizard Vs. Sorcerer, Who's the best?

[January]

*In your opinion what is the most powerful of the two? A Wizard or A Sorcerer and explain why?
*Which has more power?
*Which is the better casting Class,why?
*Which of the two is more deadly?
*Who has a better chance; Wizard Vs. Sorcerer (both 15th level)

Personally I think that the Sorcerer is more powerful, you may start off with a low amount of spells, but you get a lot more as you progress. As for the better Casting Class, I'm not really sure, I've never played as a "Pure" Wizard or Sorcerer. As for the Vs I think it would be the Sorcerer, because she has more spells, but knowing a Sorcerer, she would use all of her good spells first...

[Golden Ladybug]

But...what? Are you saying that a Sorcerer will know more spells than a Wizard? Because that just isn't true, at all :smallannoyed:

In any case, Wizards are better than Sorcerers in pretty much every way that matters. They get infinitely more spells known, they get better Alternate class features, they get better Prestige classes, they get better Stat Synergy and they get Spells earlier. They can easily get just as many spell slots as Sorcerers using the Focused Specialist ACF, and with feats such as Uncanny Foresight and simply leaving slots open and taking 15 minutes, they can negate the minor advantage of Spontaneous casting.

So yeah, Wizards are more powerful. Spells are the real power behind both classes, and Wizard gets more spells and faster. They get all the money and all the b*tches.

[Ceaon]

*In your opinion what is the most powerful of the two? A Wizard or A Sorcerer and explain why?
Wizard have way more access to spells known and, when they specialize, they have almost as much spells per day. They have the better casting stat (Int versus Cha) and gain spells a level earlier.

*Which has more power?
Wizard, they are more powerful every odd level. In terms of who can cast the most spells per day, I guess the sorcerer comes out slightly ahead unless the wizard specializes intently. And even then, how often does a high level caster run out of spells? So this difference only matters at the earliest of levels.

*Which is the better casting Class,why?
Wizard, since prepared catsing is better than spontaneous, especially for a class with access to divinations.

*Which of the two is more deadly?
They are both equally deadly, a single wizard can just be deadly in a different way the next day. A sorcerer can not.

*Who has a better chance; Wizard Vs. Sorcerer (both 15th level)
Wizard has access to 8th level spells, the sorcerer does not. Wizard wins waaaaaay before he runs out of spells by casting Power Word Stun, Polymorph Any Object, Maze... spells the sorcerer doesn't have access to yet.

[Myth]

*In your opinion what is the most powerful of the two? A Wizard or A Sorcerer and explain why? A Wizard in every way imaginable.

*Which has more power?
A Wizard

*Which is the better casting Class,why?A Wizard, because it gets more spells, better prestige classes, a better primary stat and a better mechanic to learn spells.

*Which of the two is more deadly?
Wizard

*Who has a better chance; Wizard Vs. Sorcerer (both 15th level)
The Wizard would have a better chance by no small margin. We're in the area of rocket tag here (whoever goes first wins in one round), but barring that the Wizard is better and more prepared. Always.


Personally I think that the Sorcerer is more powerful, you may start off with a low amount of spells, but you get a lot more as you progress. As for the better Casting Class, I'm not really sure, I've never played as a "Pure" Wizard or Sorcerer. As for the Vs I think it would be the Sorcerer, because she has more spells, but knowing a Sorcerer, she would use all of her good spells first...
Knowing a Sorcerer? What are you going by? Do you know Sorcerers IRL? Do you somehow think that a class has to be played in some specific way? Anyway due to having deity level Int, a Wizard will always choose a better strategy and spell than a Sorc who just looks pretty.

[Pilo]

The sorcerer is the best because he have a big charisma and bluff as a class skill so he can get any girl/boy/whatever he want.

The wizard, in the other hand, has to study to progress in magic, so he doesn't have time to get a girl. Anyway he has high intelligence and craft as a class skill so he can spend skill points in craft(cooking) so he can make himself a sandwich.

I know, roleplaying possibilities are pointless arguments here...


Regarding which of wizard or sorcerer win a 15th level fight is highly depending on the initiative. A 6th level spell slot is enough to cast a splited empowered enervation. (3 feats : Arcane thesis(enervation) split ray and empower). 2-12 negative levels are deadly. And a quiken true strike with a rod or a sorcerer variant or a sudden quicken feat may help.

[Myth]

Nonsense! Any Wizard worth his salt will put points ins Craft: Basketweaving :smallannoyed:

[Taelas]

The only advantages that sorcerers have over wizards is that they can cast more spells per day and that they do not have to memorize them.

Considering the fact that wizards can replenish their spells essentially at will via tricks such as Rope Trick, the first is not much of a benefit. The second is, but wizards can get around it in various ways (simplest way being not to memorize all your spells at once).

A sorcerer is better as a blaster than a wizard will ever be, but that is an inferior role for a spellcaster in the first place.

It comes down to what you prefer, but the wizard is more versatile and can have essentially every arcane spell available, which the sorcerer cannot. If you hate bookkeeping and just want to cast spells, the sorcerer does it well enough.

[Myth]

It's called Wizards of the Coast not Sorcerers of the Coast. I rest my case.

[Killer Angel]

*Which has more power?
*Which is the better casting Class,why?
*Which of the two is more deadly?
*Who has a better chance; Wizard Vs. Sorcerer (both 15th level)


What other forumeers already explained, and also: when the player will learn the importance of Quicken Spell, the answer comes easy.


If you hate bookkeeping and just want to cast spells, the sorcerer does it well enough.

Yep, this is the main sorc's advantage.

[ShriekingDrake]

While I actually prefer playing Sorcerers, I don't think it's a close call. Given the breadth of your queries, as others have said and for the same reasons, Wizards take the cake.

Just remember that which are more fun is an entirely different question.

[ILM]

I'm glad someone finally asked that question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223381) 'cause that topic's never come up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223075). Especially not here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222630)

By the way, all these are less than one week old.

[DeAnno]

What other forumeers already explained, and also: when the player will learn the importance of Quicken Spell, the answer comes easy.

Actually, by level 15 the Sorc has the massive advantage in action economy due to easy use of the 7th level spell Arcane Spellsurge, as well as the 5th level Arcane Fusion, and if he is a Greater Rite Kobold the 8th level spell Greater Arcane Fusion.

The Sorc's main advantage in the later levels is a decisively better action economy than the Wizard, getting his swift spells more cheaply and easily, and repeatedly cramming multiple spells into one action where the Wizard can't. This is why the Sorc is generally regarded as the better blaster (though Spontaneous casting is better suited than Prepared to a heavy blaster role anyway).

[Keneth]

Wizards in hypothetical gameplay and when abusing metamagics, sorcerers in actual gameplay and when blowing stuff up.

People seem to assume that a wizard automatically has every spell imaginable just because they can. They do have considerably more of them than sorcerers, not counting 0-level spells, level 20 sorcerers would have 34 spells spread more or less evenly, whereas wizards would have ~45 plus any they happen to scribe into their books during the course of adventuring which should put them at around twice as many sorcerers (or your DM is too lenient). This gives them plenty of utility but they need to worry about it in advance, in my experience about a third of the spells you memorize doesn't live up to their full potential. Of course this also means that they can prepare for specific situations, sorcerers have to make do with what they've got.

All in all, it depends a lot on your style of play, the campaign and your DM.

[Eldariel]

Wizards in hypothetical gameplay and when abusing metamagics, sorcerers in actual gameplay and when blowing stuff up.

Seriously? Sorcerers are .5 spell levels behind. That alone is big enough a reason to make Wizards better. Nothing else even matters. .5 spell levels means everything; it's like Sorcerers are Wizards who have lost 1 casting level. Only in the higher levels of optimization (which we are not talking about here) does the Sorcerer gain any edges.

And Sorcerers should use more metamagic than Wizards, specifically to make up for their lesser spells known.

Sorcerers need less game mastery to make them good (yes, you need to pick spells smart once to make a good Sorcerer but that's much easier than picking spells smart every day with a Wizard), but that does not make Sorcerer better. It simply means Wizard takes tons of bookkeeping and is for players with more system mastery.

[missmvicious]

Monks! Monks pwns all!

...

*Runs away giggling mischievously*

[Ossian]

It's called Wizards of the Coast not Sorcerers of the Coast. I rest my case.

This wins the thread. Let's all go home.

[Autolycus84]

The important thing to remember here is that wizards are like pie, and sorcerers are like cake, or something to that effect.

[Killer Angel]

Actually, by level 15 the Sorc has the massive advantage in action economy due to easy use of the 7th level spell Arcane Spellsurge, as well as the 5th level Arcane Fusion, and if he is a Greater Rite Kobold the 8th level spell Greater Arcane Fusion.


While true, Dragon Mag. is not exactly a source regularly present in standard campaigns, so usually wizards have more chances to break action economy.


The important thing to remember here is that wizards are like pie, and sorcerers are like cake

Nah. They don't tend to be eaten. :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

The important thing to remember here is that wizards are like pie, and sorcerers are like cake, or something to that effect.The cake is a lie.

[Keneth]

Seriously? Sorcerers are .5 spell levels behind. That's true, sorcerers lag behind slightly, but I've never felt this difference significantly. I've played a character who lagged 4 levels behind, that was annoying as hell but manageable, 1 level is hardly noticeable after that. :smalltongue:


And Sorcerers should use more metamagic than Wizards, specifically to make up for their lesser spells known. More, yes, but not as efficiently as far as specific builds are concerned.

[DeAnno]

While true, Dragon Mag. is not exactly a source regularly present in standard campaigns, so usually wizards have more chances to break action economy.

None of that is Dragon Mag(azine). Fusions are from Complete Mage, Spellsurge is Draconomicon Dragon Magic, and the Rite is a Races of the Dragon Supplement available for everyone right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). None of that is even particularly obscure, and all of it is blatant RAI.

If we're bringing Dragon Mag(azine) and deeper foolishness into this, then you get Loredrakes and Knowstones and all sorts of other further equalizers.

EDIT: I totally misunderstood what you said, because "Dragon Mag" pretty much always refers to the magazines (which everyone can agree are a bit contentious of a source, making it fit in your context too). Spellsurge is in Dragon Magic, I just had my wires crossed there.

[Killer Angel]

Spellsurge is Draconomicon, and the Rite is a Races of the Dragon Supplement available for everyone right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). None of that is even particularly obscure, and all of it is blatant RAI.


I was convinced that Spellsurge was printed in Dragon Magic... if you're right then you have a point, but still Draconomicon is not SRD, and it's not one of the more common splatbooks. It remains a secondary source (edit: IMO).

double edit:



EDIT: I totally misunderstood what you said, because "Dragon Mag" pretty much always refers to the magazines (which everyone can agree are a bit contentious of a source, making it fit in your context too). Spellsurge is in Dragon Magic, I just had my wires crossed there.

Then I apologize for my unclear statement. :smallwink:

[Eldariel]

None of that is Dragon Mag. Fusions are from Complete Mage, Spellsurge is Draconomicon, and the Rite is a Races of the Dragon Supplement available for everyone right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). None of that is even particularly obscure, and all of it is blatant RAI.

Umm, Arcane Spellsurge is from Dragon Magic and it's a Sorcerer/Wizard spell. Fusions and "Wings of"-line are the only Sorcerer-unique spells, albeit good ones (though not entirely unaccessible for Wizards either). By contrast, Wizards have Lucubration and all that (potentially ridiculous but generally just good).

[Pilo]

Why wizard suck in PF:
Prestige Classes and Spellcasters: Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?

No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.

Sources : http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9nib

So even if a wizard based character may cast higher level spells than a sorcerer, (s)he may not have them.

[DeAnno]

Even though Wu Jens and Wizards get Spellsurge, since they have a limited selection of spells with a casting time of one round using it properly can be a bit tricky. The Fusions are really the bigger advantage, and of course Wings of Cover is great from low levels onward.

[elvengunner69]

It's called Wizards of the Coast not Sorcerers of the Coast. I rest my case.

Touche!


While I actually prefer playing Sorcerers, I don't think it's a close call. Given the breadth of your queries, as others have said and for the same reasons, Wizards take the cake.

Just remember that which are more fun is an entirely different question.

I've seen Wizards abused too often when playing were lazy players don't book keep their spells each day and just pick from a list as needed which in my opinion is incredibly cheaty - what fun is there in just picking the right spell for each situation?

From a roleplaying perspective I think Sorcerers are better because you what you pick is what you are...I see Sorcerers as (to use a comic book analogy) mutants born with abilities and I see Wizards as Iron Men (or women) able to adapt/modify/rebuild themselves on a daily basis.

Pound for pound Wizards do rule as has been said already.

[Zale]

The answer is Pun-Pun the Omnipotent.

Anger him not, lest he descend from his lofty domain to obliterate us all.

[Jack_Simth]

*In your opinion what is the most powerful of the two? A Wizard or A Sorcerer and explain why?

This depends on the campaign - rather heavily. Over all, the Wizard is a little better, however, there's a number of campaign-dependent things that push the balance point between the two one direction or the other. Here's an incomplete listing:

1) Source availability. The nature of the Wizard's spellcasting makes additional books more useful in general, as the Wizard can add spells and feats more readily, and make use of a number of things better than the Sorcerer can. However, there are certain Sorcerer-only spells, feats, and races that are ridiculously useful ... so really, this one depends on which sources are available for use.
2) Down time. The Wizard needs down time, to add scrolls into spellbooks, to craft items, and so on. The Sorcerer, not so much. If there's lots of down-time in the campaign, then the balance point between wizard and sorcerer shifts more towards Wizard. If there's basically 0 down-time in the campaign, then the balance point between wizard and sorcerer shifts more towards Sorcerer. Yes, there are higher optimization things that can be done to mitigate this sort of thing (Plane shifting to fast time planes, for instance)... but that's less the classes themselves and more the available sources (item 1 on this list).
3) Encounters per day. The Wizard has significantly fewer spell slots of his top few spell levels than does the Sorcerer, and every option used is an option he no longer has, while the Sorcerer's options don't change until he runs out of spell slots of a given level. In general, with more encounters per day, the balance point shifts towards the Sorcerer. With fewer encounters per day, the balance point shifts towards the Wizard. There are ways around this - such as the Focused Specialist Wizard variant, consumable items, Knowstones, Drakehelms, and Runestaffs - but the ways around it go back to 1 and 2 on this list.
4) Foreknowledge. How much do you know about what you'll face today? All DM's treat divinations about what will happen differently. With some, they're useless, with others, they're godly. Likewise, sometimes you'll have decent intelligence on the opponent, sometimes you won't. Wizards can tailor their spell lists based on what they know is coming from one day to the next, Sorcerers can't (well, there's ways around that at higher levels... but that goes back to sources available in point 1; when the Sorcerer is pulling that specific trick, though, they are better at it than wizards are...). If you have good foreknowledge of what's coming, the balance point shifts towards the Wizard's preparation. If you have no foreknowledge - or worse, bad foreknowledge - then the balance point shifts more towards the Sorcerer's spontaneity.

Note that it's essentially the same answer for most of your bullet points....

[Godskook]

*In your opinion what is the most powerful of the two? A Wizard or A Sorcerer and explain why?

They're equally powerful at even levels, with Wizards pulling ahead at odd levels. Wizards win the versatility war, allowing them to be powerful in far more situations than the Sorcerer would be.


*Which has more power?

Repeated question, honestly.


*Which is the better casting Class,why?

I'm not sure what you're asking that's different than question #1.


*Which of the two is more deadly?

Both? Again, I'm not sure what you're asking that's 'new'.


*Who has a better chance; Wizard Vs. Sorcerer (both 15th level)

At even levels, it depends on build and prep times. At odd levels, it depends more on if the wizard is feeling generous or not. Basically, higher spell levels will almost always win, combined with the Wizard's better spell selection, and Sorcerers don't have a chance at an odd level that isn't 1 or 19. At even levels, a Sorcerer built to kill wizards can do so, and against a Wizard not prepared(ha!) for fighting a specialized Sorcerer, he'll do so with impunity. Against equal levels of optimization(directed at fighting casters), and its probably a fair fight.

[Doc Roc]

Changeling

Racial emulation (Kobold) ((They're Humanoid[reptilian, dragonblood]))
Flaw-> Human Heritage
Flaw-> Dragonwrought (Metallic)
+Loredrake
+White Dragonspawn, we don't become an abomination or anything.
3: Draconic Reservoir
+Greater Draconic Rite of Passage

Don't forget to buy-off LA.

Interestingly, by the end, we have the dragon, human, reptilian, dragonblooded, and shapeshifter types.

[dextercorvia]

Changeling

Racial emulation (Kobold) ((They're Humanoid[reptilian, dragonblood]))
Flaw-> Human Heritage
Flaw-> Dragonwrought
+Loredrake
+White Dragonspawn, we don't become an abomination or anything.
3: Draconic Reservoir
+Greater Draconic Rite of Passage
Buy-off LA.

Very nice. Why Human Heritage?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why wizard suck in PF:
Prestige Classes and Spellcasters: Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?

No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.

Sources : http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9nib

So even if a wizard based character may cast higher level spells than a sorcerer, (s)he may not have them.

Are you kidding? Spell costs are negligible. At 3rd level, the fighter has a +1 greatsword and masterwork armor. The wizard has a masterwork crossbow and enough money to buy a number of second level spells in the double digits, and first level spells are half that much.

Also, straight wizard would like a word with you.

[Doc Roc]

Very nice. Why Human Heritage?

A lot of people panic over the whole dragonspawn abominations stuff, and the typing restrictions of dragonspawn. With heritage, even though we're a dragon, we're still human, so we can take the template.

[Rogue Shadows]

http://cdn.head-fi.org/d/db/db79e592_This-will-be-the-sixth-time-we-have-created-a-thread-about-it.gif

That is all.

[DeAnno]

At least its better than one extremely inaccessible 40 page thread that degenerates into a flame war and gets locked.

[dextercorvia]

A lot of people panic over the whole dragonspawn abominations stuff, and the typing restrictions of dragonspawn. With heritage, even though we're a dragon, we're still human, so we can take the template.

Couldn't we just be a Dragonspawn Changeling and then use Racial Emulation to nab Dragonwrought and the Rites?

[sonofzeal]

Neither Wizard nor Sorcerer is best.



Truenamer is.
pleasedon'tkillmepleasedon'tkillme!

[Safety Sword]

Neither Wizard nor Sorcerer is best.



Truenamer is.
pleasedon'tkillmepleasedon'tkillme!

Hey Zeal, your self-respect just left the building :smalltongue:

Good thing we know you're joking :smallbiggrin:

Oh and on the topic. Wizards. Better and more fun. Unless you like using the same spell in the same way every encounter... it gets old.

[Killer Angel]

Neither Wizard nor Sorcerer is best.

Truenamer is.


Even the mighty monk, fears Truenamer's power!

[Wings of Peace]

1.) Wizard. No competition. Quicker access to higher level spells > the ability to cast spontaneously. Even the ability to cast spontaneously doesn't count for much since a Wizard can do the same with less efficiency via Versatile Spellcaster.

2.) Wizard. It should only take one or two spells to solve a problem, but it takes many -different- spells to solve many different problems.

3.) Wizard, because I consider a good spellcaster to be someone with lots of spells to cast.

4.) Neither. Killing things is a simple enough problem that either can do it effectively.

5.) Unless contingent spells are being employed it's even. Spells per day doesn't matter since 1v1 at level 15 is basically rocket-tag.


Why wizard suck in PF:
Prestige Classes and Spellcasters: Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?


Most Pathfinder prestige classes aren't worth it anyways. Foresight School Wizard is where it's at in PF.

[Eldariel]

Most Pathfinder prestige classes aren't worth it anyways. Foresight School Wizard is where it's at in PF.

Generalists get free Metamagic few times per day still... I think that's by far the strongest "specialization" other than losing out on getting extra spell slots. So if you can maneuver with one less I'd always go Generalist.

[GreenSerpent]

Basically, in a level 15 Sorceror vs level 15 Wizard fight it's about equal.

It all depends on tactics. If the Sorceror has any sense he'll just keep on smacking the Wizard with Empowered or Maximised Enervations and keep on draining his high level spells until he's dead.

If the Wizard manages to start hitting the Sorceror with spells that he can't counterspell then the Wizard has a better chance.

It all really depends on who has the better tactics and gets in the first strike. As Xykon shows (SOD spoilers)
"All you need is power and style. And in a pinch, style can slide. ENERGY DRAIN!"

"Yes, I'm a sorceror. That means I can keep casting the same frigging spell over and over again at you until you roll over and die. ENERGY DRAIN!"

[Kantolin]

Technically, I believe the popular answer for 2 is 'they're the same', as they both have the same game breaking overall power, just not versatility to go with this power.

At least, according to tier list and such.

[sonofzeal]

Even the mighty monk, fears Truenamer's power!
Actually, I kinda want to throw Trickster-variant Spellthief into this list. He only gets up to 6th level spells, but off most of the Sor/Wiz list and the entire Bard list... and more importantly, Absorb Spell and Steal Spell Effect are just amazing if we're looking at caster-vs-caster. I wonder what the effect of stealing someone's Astral Projection would be.......

[Snowbluff]

I don't see wizards being able to cast Wings spells.

[FearlessGnome]

So here's a question. Sorcerer 20 versus Wizard 20. Wizard uses divination, yada yada yada, Wizard wins. But throw the Sorcerer a couple of days warning and a few scrolls of LW. Is that enough to tip the balance for that one battle? Not sustainable in the long run, but for final battles versus one's arch nemesis, etc.

[Eldariel]

Basically, in a level 15 Sorceror vs level 15 Wizard fight it's about equal.

It all depends on tactics. If the Sorceror has any sense he'll just keep on smacking the Wizard with Empowered or Maximised Enervations and keep on draining his high level spells until he's dead.

It's not even. Wizard 15 vs. Sorcerer 15, Wizard has 8th level spells (among others, Polymorph Any Object, Moment of Prescience, Mind Blank, Maze, etc.). This means Wizard can be permanently Polymorphed into a form with much more formidable base chassis including Intelligence (PAO can last eternally), is 100% protected from various Divinations, wins Initiative, has a rather efficient action denial spell in Maze given Sorcs don't generally make Int a priority, and that's just with Core.

Magic duels always have the initiator's advantage, to boot. Simply because Quicken Spell allows two offensive actions to one defensive action from the opponent. Battlemagic Perception and Celerity-like effects alleviate this on the first turn but trading action for action defensively is not sustainable. For the record, bruteforcing it with Enervations isn't exactly the pinnacle of tactical offense. For one, Ray Deflection is a level 4 spell and things will turn very sour for Enervation-user at that point, and in spite of being Arcane casters, it's not impossible to acquire immunity to negative energy for Wizards or Sorcerers.


But no, the extra spell level takes Wizard 15 vs. Sorcerer 15 pretty convincingly unless the Sorcerer is at least Loredrake (though then the Wizard could be a Spellhoarding Loredrake and where does that leave us...). Wizard 16 vs. Sorcerer 16 would be significantly more fair.

[Big Fau]

If we're bringing Dragon Mag(azine) and deeper foolishness into this, then you get Loredrakes and Knowstones and all sorts of other further equalizers.

Ahem: Loredrake is a Dragonic Archtype from Dragons of Eberron, not Dragon Magazine.


@OP: PvP never proves anything. I know, I saw the Aelryinth Wars.

And while the Wizard is a more powerful class, the gap between the two classes is much smaller than the gap between a Warmage and a Sorcerer.

[Keneth]

It's not even. Wizard 15 vs. Sorcerer 15, Wizard has 8th level spells (among others, Polymorph Any Object, Moment of Prescience, Mind Blank, Maze, etc.). This means Wizard can be permanently Polymorphed into a form with much more formidable base chassis including Intelligence (PAO can last eternally), is 100% protected from various Divinations, wins Initiative, has a rather efficient action denial spell in Maze given Sorcs don't generally make Int a priority, and that's just with Core. I'm pretty sure you forgot an "or" somewhere in there because unless you have 26 Int (very plausible but hardly the default) and/or are a specialist wizard and/or employ some other archaic and more cheesy methods, then you only have 1 8th level spell. An advantage, for sure, but not really gamebreakingly so. Besides, comparing the two as how they would fare against each-other is pointless, it's how they would fair against the environment that counts and in that situation it becomes even more insignificant.

[Big Fau]

I'm pretty sure you forgot an "or" somewhere in there because unless you have 26 Int (very plausible but hardly the default) and/or are a specialist wizard and/or employ some other archaic and more cheesy methods, then you only have 1 8th level spell. An advantage, for sure, but not really gamebreakingly so. Besides, comparing the two as how they would fare against each-other is pointless, it's how they would fair against the environment that counts and in that situation it becomes even more insignificant.

A Focused Specialist Wizard has 3 8th level spells/day at 15th level. And it isn't "very plausible but hardly the default" for a Full Caster to have a 26 by level 15, it is the default (assuming the Elite Array, you have 15 base+3 level+6 enhancement+2 inherent).

Both the Sorcerer and Wizard should have a 26 minimum, possibly 30 if they have the GP.

[Keneth]

A Focused Specialist Wizard has 3 8th level spells/day at 15th level. This also means you'll be giving up 3 schools which makes the argument moot since he was arguing versatility and a huge boost in power with 8th level spells like he'll be casting them every round.


Both the Sorcerer and Wizard should have a 26 minimum, possibly 30 if they have the GP. This depends entirely on the campaign. The only thing you can really assume is that the maximum natural Int is 18 + 2 racial + 3 level. There were plenty of times when I was still sporting a solid ~22 at that level. Admittedly though I haven't played a pure wizard that many times. Since it's more or less a SAD character, I might have had a better track record with primary attributes if I had. Still, assuming everyone would get max headbands and stat tomes by that level has no basis in fact and is thus pure conjecture.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This also means you'll be giving up 3 schools which makes the argument moot since he was arguing versatility and a huge boost in power with 8th level spells like he'll be casting them every round.

Ban Necromancy, Enchantment, and Evocation. Be a focused transmuter with Spell Versatality. You have the same number of spells per day, far more spells known, and the ability to cherry pick a few things (Dominate Person, Wall of Force) from your banned schools.

Even without Spell Versatality, you still have more spells known, so your point is moot.

[The Glyphstone]

This also means you'll be giving up 3 schools which makes the argument moot since he was arguing versatility and a huge boost in power with 8th level spells like he'll be casting them every round.

This depends entirely on the campaign. The only thing you can really assume is that the maximum natural Int is 18 + 2 racial + 3 level. There were plenty of times when I was still sporting a solid ~22 at that level. Admittedly though I haven't played a pure wizard that many times. Since it's more or less a SAD character, I might have had a better track record with primary attributes if I had. Still, assuming everyone would get max headbands and stat tomes by that level has no basis in fact and is thus pure conjecture.

You have 200,000 gold at level 15. A +6 headband is only 36,000 GP; that's like assuming a level 15 fighter would still have a masterwork sword and armor.

18 base +2 racial +3 level +6 headband = 29 INT at level 15. No Tome needed.

[Big Fau]

This also means you'll be giving up 3 schools which makes the argument moot since he was arguing versatility and a huge boost in power with 8th level spells like he'll be casting them every round.

I could play a straight Wizard who's only schools were Abjuration, Conjuration, and Divination and still be more versatile than an equal-leveled straight Sorcerer.

There's a lot of flexibility in just two schools (Transmutation and Conjuration are the most powerful schools in the game for a reason). Giving up a measly three schools (each of which is a niche school) is a pittance by comparison to the power I gain.


This depends entirely on the campaign. The only thing you can really assume is that the maximum natural Int is 18 + 2 racial + 3 level. There were plenty of times when I was still sporting a solid ~22 at that level. Admittedly though I haven't played a pure wizard that many times. Since it's more or less a SAD character, I might have had a better track record with primary attributes if I had. Still, assuming everyone would get max headbands and stat tomes by that level has no basis in fact and is thus pure conjecture.

This tells me a few things:


Your resource priorities placed ability scores far lower than they should have.
Your DM wasn't following the recommended WBL guidelines.
Your DM wasn't allowing you to purchase magic items once you had access to planar travel.
You were unable to craft the items yourself.
Some combination of the above.

Regardless, your assumptions have no bearing on a theoretical debate over class power. When debating a class' power, the only rules are the ones listed in the relevant rulebooks and the ones instated by the OP. Your personal experiences do not have a bearing on the outcome of this debate.

[GreenSerpent]

Admittedly a level 15 Focused Specialist Wizard with three level 8 spells...

Sorceror: MAXIMISED Enervation! = -all those level 8 spells. Plus all the lovely advantages of 4 negative levels.

All the Sorceror has to do is keep spamming Enervation or Energy Drain (if high enough level) and keep stacking negative levels until the Wizard dies. It's when it comes to out-of-combat the Wizard excels, having far more versatility to deal with problems.

[Big Fau]

Admittedly a level 15 Focused Specialist Wizard with three level 8 spells...

Sorceror: MAXIMISED Enervation! = -all those level 8 spells. Plus all the lovely advantages of 4 negative levels.

All the Sorceror has to do is keep spamming Enervation or Energy Drain (if high enough level) and keep stacking negative levels until the Wizard dies. It's when it comes to out-of-combat the Wizard excels, having far more versatility to deal with problems.

You are assuming the Sorcerer wins Init or that the Wizard is completely unprepared. Who's to say the Wizard isn't capable of the same strategy? Or able to counter it?


After all, what good can Enervate do you when you get slapped in the face with an Empowered Orb of Acid that the Wizard readied?

[GreenSerpent]

You are assuming the Sorcerer wins Init or that the Wizard is completely unprepared. Who's to say the Wizard isn't capable of the same strategy? Or able to counter it?


After all, what good can Enervate do you when you get slapped in the face with an Empowered Orb of Acid that the Wizard readied?

Wings of Cover. See that Empowered Orb of Acid get through that.

And of course, a Sorceror will almost certainly get as many as or more than spells as the Wizard, allowing the Sorceror to just Counterspell if necessary. Admittedly the sorceror couldn't counterspell everything, but having a Conjuration, an Evocation and a Transmutation spell would cover most eventualities.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wings of Cover. See that Empowered Orb of Acid get through that.

And of course, a Sorceror will almost certainly get as many as or more than spells as the Wizard, allowing the Sorceror to just Counterspell if necessary. Admittedly the sorceror couldn't counterspell everything, but having a Conjuration, an Evocation and a Transmutation spell would cover most eventualities.

The problem with assuming a theoretical sorcerer without actually making one is that you can just say he has the right spell to defend against everything the wizard throws at him. The wizard, meanwhile, very well can have every good spell available, and should, since he doesn't need to put money into magic weapons.

[FearlessGnome]

The problem with assuming a theoretical sorcerer without actually making one is that you can just say he has the right spell to defend against everything the wizard throws at him. The wizard, meanwhile, very well can have every good spell available, and should, since he doesn't need to put money into magic weapons.

The only spell he named was Wings of Cover. And having played a Sorcerer, all I can say is that if you know about Wings of Cover, you have it. It is fantastic.

Orb of Acid? Wings of Cover. Dominate Monster? Wings of Cover. Disjunction? Wings of Cover!

[Hiro Protagonest]

The only spell he named was Wings of Cover. And having played a Sorcerer, all I can say is that if you know about Wings of Cover, you have it. It is fantastic.

Wings of Cover, Enervation, and Counterspell.

[GreenSerpent]

Look at Xykon. He beat Dorukan by (SOD spoilers)
Layering negative levels onto him until Dorukan couldn't cast any of his high level spells. Didn't matter what Dorukan had, Xykon was just wiping out his high level spell slots. Didn't matter what tactics Dorukan used, Xykon was making him progressively weaker and weaker.

All the Sorceror needs to do is get off one Enervation and it immediately gets easier for him. Simplest way to do that would be Invisibility or Greater Invisibility, or Mirror Image. The wizard can trust to blind luck to hit them (not likely, if the sorceror has any tactics at all about moving about) or dispel it, which gives the Sorceror a chance to strike and start weakening them.

[FearlessGnome]

Wings of Cover, Enervation, and Counterspell.

...Right. Yes. This appears to be true. Not unusual choices, but still, three spells named. Wings of Cover should be on any list, though. And some form of offense and some form of dispelling/countering would be in most builds as well.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Look at Xykon. He beat Dorukan by (SOD spoilers)
Layering negative levels onto him until Dorukan couldn't cast any of his high level spells. Didn't matter what Dorukan had, Xykon was just wiping out his high level spell slots. Didn't matter what tactics Dorukan used, Xykon was making him progressively weaker and weaker.

All the Sorceror needs to do is get off one Enervation and it immediately gets easier for him. Simplest way to do that would be Invisibility or Greater Invisibility, or Mirror Image. The wizard can trust to blind luck to hit them (not likely, if the sorceror has any tactics at all about moving about) or dispel it, which gives the Sorceror a chance to strike and start weakening them.

Dorukan could've won if his Prismatic Spray had worked. Also, Mirror Image or Displacement would've protected him well enough from those Enervations if he'd played smart. The important thing is, he could've played smarter, because of his high intelligence, but he didn't, because Xykon was protected by the power of the plot.

On the spell list, I can see Enervation. But Counterspell is stretching it. Wait, is there even a spell named Counterspell? All I see is Spell Turning. And out of Spell Turning, in core only, there's four other spells competing for one of the three slots a 20th level sorcerer gets, Plane Shift, Prismatic Spray, Greater Shadow Conjuration, and Mass Invisibility. That's just core.

[Calanon]

Basically, in a level 15 Sorceror vs level 15 Wizard fight it's about equal.

At this point in PVP it usually matters who hits who with the strongest negative level spell possible. And who does it first


It all depends on tactics. If the Sorceror has any sense he'll just keep on smacking the Wizard with Empowered or Maximised Enervations and keep on draining his high level spells until he's dead.
Split ray Empowered Enervate is a 7th level spell
If the Wizard has any sense he'll have done the same :smallconfused:


If the Wizard manages to start hitting the Sorceror with spells that he can't counterspell then the Wizard has a better chance.

Yes, because Sorcerers always have a persisted Dualward set up :smallannoyed: not possible due to being a 10th level spell slot

The Negative level tactic is one of my reasons for liking Necromancy so much :smallbiggrin:

[Luka]

Don't Sorcerers get to cast more spells per day than Wizards? I think that gives an advantage to them. Or maybe I'm just confusing it as "Mana"

[FearlessGnome]

Don't Sorcerers get to cast more spells per day than Wizards? I think that gives an advantage to them. Or maybe I'm just confusing it as "Mana"

They're supposed to. Wizards can cheat, however. Elf Generalist Domain Wizards and Focused Specialists, I think it is.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Don't Sorcerers get to cast more spells per day than Wizards? I think that gives an advantage to them. Or maybe I'm just confusing it as "Mana"

Specialists only get one less spell slots of each level, and once you get to the point where you can cast three spells per encounter, it doesn't really matter. Be a transmuter, ban necromancy and enchantment, take Spell Versatility so you can cherry pick Enervation and some other goodies (like Dominate Person).

Focused specialist gets the exact same spells per day as sorcerers. Treat it the same as above, but also ban evocation.

They still get much more spells known, banned schools or not, and if you absolutely positively need a spell from a banned school, Soell Versatility gets you one of them every five levels.

Edit: @^: Elven Generalist Domain wizards are cheating, focused specialists are fully RAI.

[Psyren]

This is like asking if cake is better than ice cream.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This is like asking if cake is better than ice cream.

And wizards are the ice cream cake.

[Luka]

I think they both have their tricks, I mean, Sorcerers have more spells per day, have Arcane Spellsurge don't have to prepare spells and are the nearest thing to "Mana" (Aside from Psions) casting, so they may not end up out of them, they're pretty good for causing stuff blowing up. Wizads get more spells and could use them more strategically, they're good all around, depending on the build and stuff.

[Eldariel]

Wings of Cover. See that Empowered Orb of Acid get through that.

And of course, a Sorceror will almost certainly get as many as or more than spells as the Wizard, allowing the Sorceror to just Counterspell if necessary. Admittedly the sorceror couldn't counterspell everything, but having a Conjuration, an Evocation and a Transmutation spell would cover most eventualities.

Sorcerer can't counterspell every spell because offense = more actions per round (Circlet of Rapid Casting, Rod of Quicken Spell or whatever), counters = 1 spell per round. Wizard has a similar number of spells as the Sorcerer anyways 'cause it's an odd level:

Standard Conjurer has 5+5+5+5+5+4+3+2 = 34 spells plus level-up bonuses. Sorc has 6+6+6+6+6+6+4 = 40 spells plus level-up bonuses. Focused Specialist would have more than Sorc (6+6+6+6+6+5+4+3). Wings of Cover is fine. But it's an immediate action and so is e.g. Celerity. The fact that you cast Wings means you aren't casting Celerity which is most certainly the stronger effect anyways.


Also, Enervation spam would run into negative energy immunity. Or Ray Deflection. Or similar. It's not like both sides are defensively inadequate. And Wizard has Mind Blank but Sorc does not.

"Spam Enervation" is never going to win you any spell duels. It's simply more complex than that, and much more frontloaded. Wings of Cover blocks one effect per round. What happens if the enemy e.g. uses Quicken Spell and Celerity for two more?

It's also worth noting that the Sorcerer does not have Mind Blank. Which makes him vulnerable to a lot of random crap (for starters, he can't be Invisible+Blanked to make detection real hard).

The real key to winning a spell duel is to make actions that enable you to realize an action advantage upon your opponent and resolve something. And denying/acquiring information.

[Calanon]

Wings of Cover. See that Empowered Orb of Acid get through that.

And of course, a Sorceror will almost certainly get as many as or more than spells as the Wizard, allowing the Sorceror to just Counterspell if necessary. Admittedly the sorceror couldn't counterspell everything, but having a Conjuration, an Evocation and a Transmutation spell would cover most eventualities.

Neat, So I counterspell your Wings of cover and then laugh at you while using a Quickened Displacement (Bad move to do but i just wanna avoid your ranged touch spells... what does Enervation use?) to avoid any spell that you might consider throwing at me. Of course the Wizard has Celerity what happens if both casters have Celerity?

[GreenSerpent]

Please, let's not get into a "how to smash the other best" match. This is about who is better.

Wait a minute though, to ready a counterspell takes a standard action. You couldn't do that AND cast Empowered Orb of Acid.
If you used Celerity you'd then be extremely vulnerable were I to survive the hit, unable to do anything.

[Coidzor]

*In your opinion what is the most powerful of the two? A Wizard or A Sorcerer and explain why?

Wizards have more potential power due to being capable of learning every wizard spell in the game by core rules more easily and much more cheaply than a sorcerer.


*Which has more power?

A wizard can specialize twice and get the same number of spells per day as a Sorcerer, but with more freedom and more ability to exploit downtime and crafting on their own. It's cheaper for them to learn all of their spells due to items like a boccob's blessed book or the half-sized crystal equivalent from eberron.

Wizards also have less opportunity cost for taking minion-making and money-making spells that they're not going to use all of the time. Planar Binding and Wall of Salt can add up, as can animate dead, chain metamagic'd command undead/dominate person, and create dread warrior. Heck, spells like Animate Dread warrior mean you can have a whole family of pet necromancer clerics.


*Which is the better casting Class,why?

Wizards have more utility to them at the macro level and reach their peak of power more quickly but are more complicated to learn and play, since a sorcerer can choose a go-to couple of combat spells and Heighten and make a baseline contribution of utility spells all the time whereas the wizard has to decide how to prep and what loadout to make his general one, though, really, it's about making the decision essentially once and with the ability to switch it out a little bit at level up or if you can find a friendly psion to psychic reformation you versus being able to make that decision every day if one would like to do so.

I'd have to go with Wizards though, in the end, because of that greater versatility in general.


*Which of the two is more deadly?

That depends more upon the individual character's playstyle, the realities of the campaign and divination in it, and a few other factors that don't immediately come to mind. The wizard's faster spell progression is an advantage there, as he throws around better DC'd spells that much more quickly, and with enough prep time can come up with the spells to wreck anyone, as well as have developed multiple ways of getting armies of minions.


*Who has a better chance; Wizard Vs. Sorcerer (both 15th level)

Given that XP is a river... a Wizard could have gotten in a lot more crafting compared to a sorcerer just based upon their wider array of spells to choose from...

Disregarding that kind of violation of the spirit of the match-up, the wizard's going to have a bit of an edge due to having 8th level spells, but it mostly boils down to build, who gets the jump on the other one, and the luck of the dice.


Look at Xykon. He beat Dorukan by (SOD spoilers)
Layering negative levels onto him until Dorukan couldn't cast any of his high level spells. Didn't matter what Dorukan had, Xykon was just wiping out his high level spell slots. Didn't matter what tactics Dorukan used, Xykon was making him progressively weaker and weaker.

At that level of play, negative levels are trivial for a caster to defend against. :smallconfused: That's kind of the point of that story, the wizard was being an idiot.
Because love makes fools of us all.

[Calanon]

Please, let's not get into a "how to smash the other best" match. This is about who is better.

Hmm... this might be the first and probably the only time I am ever justified in saying this but: "You started it" :smallconfused:

But yes you are correct, this isn't about who can smash the other the better fastest and funniest... Because if it was I wouldn't let this "debate" die


Wizards have more potential power due to being capable of learning every wizard spell in the game by core rules more easily and much more cheaply than a sorcerer.


*In your opinion what is the most powerful of the two? A Wizard or A Sorcerer and explain why?

A wizard can specialize twice and get the same number of spells per day as a Sorcerer, but with more freedom and more ability to exploit downtime and crafting on their own. It's cheaper for them to learn all of their spells due to items like a boccob's blessed book or the half-sized crystal equivalent from eberron.

Wizards also have less opportunity cost for taking minion-making and money-making spells that they're not going to use all of the time. Planar Binding and Wall of Salt can add up, as can animate dead, chain metamagic'd command undead/dominate person, and create dread warrior. Heck, spells like Animate Dread warrior mean you can have a whole family of pet necromancer clerics.


*Which is the better casting Class,why?

Wizards have more utility to them at the macro level and reach their peak of power more quickly but are more complicated to learn and play, since a sorcerer can choose a go-to couple of combat spells and Heighten and make a baseline contribution of utility spells all the time whereas the wizard has to decide how to prep and what loadout to make his general one, though, really, it's about making the decision essentially once and with the ability to switch it out a little bit at level up or if you can find a friendly psion to psychic reformation you versus being able to make that decision every day if one would like to do so.

I'd have to go with Wizards though, in the end, because of that greater versatility in general.


*Which of the two is more deadly?

That depends more upon the individual character's playstyle, the realities of the campaign and divination in it, and a few other factors that don't immediately come to mind. The wizard's faster spell progression is an advantage there, as he throws around better DC'd spells that much more quickly, and with enough prep time can come up with the spells to wreck anyone, as well as have developed multiple ways of getting armies of minions.


*Who has a better chance; Wizard Vs. Sorcerer (both 15th level)

Given that XP is a river... a Wizard could have gotten in a lot more crafting compared to a sorcerer just based upon their wider array of spells to choose from...

Disregarding that kind of violation of the spirit of the match-up, the wizard's going to have a bit of an edge due to having 8th level spells, but it mostly boils down to build, who gets the jump on the other one, and the luck of the dice.


Look at Xykon. He beat Dorukan by (SOD spoilers)
Layering negative levels onto him until Dorukan couldn't cast any of his high level spells. Didn't matter what Dorukan had, Xykon was just wiping out his high level spell slots. Didn't matter what tactics Dorukan used, Xykon was making him progressively weaker and weaker.

At that level of play, negative levels are trivial for a caster to defend against. :smallconfused: That's kind of the point of that story, the wizard was being an idiot.
Because love makes fools of us all.

I believe Coidzor's comment would satisfy the debate

[FMArthur]

The 'more spells' sorcerer angle is a bit of an illusion unless you mean low-level spells, which are only a backup at best for the full power you wield. FYI a Specialist wizard always has the same number of highest-level spell slots on even levels as a sorcerer (and 1 less than Sorc for the level below that, and 2 less at the level below that). On odd levels there is obviously no competition.

Focused Specialists always have more high-level slots than sorcerers until sorcerers catch up at 20th level. At odd levels they absolutely blow sorcerers out of the water, gaining enough top-level slots immediately to rely on them throughout a normal day. Even levels are hardly better because they get to have 5 different spells to the sorcerer's 1 spell cast 4 times.

Another thing that sort of bothers me is the claim of the supposed flexibility of spontaneous casting. Really, sorcerers are just preparing their spells once - and permanently - when they gain a level. Is that really flexible?

Sorcerers are just easier. There's nothing else to it. Their advantages are part illusion and things like Uncanny Forethought give those advantages to wizards anyway. The only reasons to play a sorcerer over a wizard are self-restriction, story reasons or just to have less bookkeeping. I've used sorcerers for all three reasons and happen to enjoy playing them. That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge how much better a wizard is; they are caster kings.

[Big Fau]

Wings of Cover. See that Empowered Orb of Acid get through that.

And of course, a Sorceror will almost certainly get as many as or more than spells as the Wizard, allowing the Sorceror to just Counterspell if necessary. Admittedly the sorceror couldn't counterspell everything, but having a Conjuration, an Evocation and a Transmutation spell would cover most eventualities.

1st: Wizards can use Quicken Spell without needing to dip outside of Core. Sorcerers can't. You Wings of Cover? I can quicken a Melf's Acid Arrow and still get the job done.

2nd: Counterspelling requires using the spell you are countering, not a spell of the same school. If I'm casting an Orb of Acid, you have to know Orb of Acid and have to use it to counter mine.

3rd: PVP, again, is the worst way to judge class power. Especially when dealing with Tiers 1&2. Classes in 3.5 were not balanced for PVP play at all.

[Doc Roc]

And it's particularly bad here, because at most levels of optimization, sorcerer has a couple of tricks that are especially useful in RAW-centric PvP. I prefer sorcerer, but I think wizard may be more powerful in the abstract.

[Calanon]

And it's particularly bad here, because at most levels of optimization, sorcerer has a couple of tricks that are especially useful in RAW-centric PvP. I prefer sorcerer, but I think wizard may be more powerful in the abstract.

I have never seen a Sorcerer Optimization before... I haven't even seen a Sorcerer Handbook or nothing like this :smallconfused:

[Doc Roc]

I have never seen a Sorcerer Optimization before... I haven't even seen a Sorcerer Handbook or nothing like this :smallconfused:

Look, I'm basically out of the optimization community. If someone wants to lay down the eight-fold path here, feel free. Solo's guides are a decent jumping off point for sorcerer info. If the black tactica guide to sorcerer's is still around, it might not be bad either.

Ed:

It's still around, but never got finished (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872258/Sorcerers_Guide._Your_help_wanted.).

[Big Fau]

Look, I'm basically out of the optimization community. If someone wants to lay down the eight-fold path here, feel free. Solo's guides are a decent jumping off point for sorcerer info. If the black tactica guide to sorcerer's is still around, it might not be bad either.

Ed:

It's still around, but never got finished (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872258/Sorcerers_Guide._Your_help_wanted.).

More recently, this. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=487)

[Doc Roc]

More recently, this. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=487)

That is one dude who I will never regret sharing a bowl of pho with.

[candycorn]

Bottom line, a focused specialist wizard will, at most levels (all levels after level 8), rival or exceed the sorceror in spells per day.

Also, 5 schools of magic may be less flexible than 6, or 8, but it's still an order of magnitude more than a caster who must select a few spells, and that's it.

Sorceror only spells can help make up for this, but they don't negate it completely. This is countered by Mnemonic Enhancer which, when combined with item creation feats, can further enhance spells per day. (eternal wands or normal wands of Mnemonic enhancer can increase a daily loadout of lower level spells by more than a little)

[Wings of Peace]

Generalists get free Metamagic few times per day still... I think that's by far the strongest "specialization" other than losing out on getting extra spell slots. So if you can maneuver with one less I'd always go Generalist.

Are you referring to Universalists? Because they don't get that feature until 8th level. And even then it's only 1/day, that number only grows once every two levels thereafter. I'd rather never be surprised and get Wizard Level/2 as an initiative bonus. On top of all that I also get Prescience which is just plain handy for manipulating the odds of an important roll.

[adecoy95]

i like the sorcerer more than the wizard, personally. while you have a limited selection of spells compared to the wizard, a sorceror can cast as many of any one spell as he needs. if a wizard prepares one dispel magic but needed more, oh well, a sorcerer can just keep pumping them out every round as long as its got the spells per day for it.

[Incanur]

As everybody and their simulacrum has noted, wizards win in overall power. They're tier 1 for a reason. However, sorcerers do have a few advantages. Int trumps Cha overall, but the latter can prove valuable. For example, sorcerers make better use of shapechange because of this.

[Eldariel]

Are you referring to Universalists? Because they don't get that feature until 8th level. And even then it's only 1/day, that number only grows once every two levels thereafter. I'd rather never be surprised and get Wizard Level/2 as an initiative bonus. On top of all that I also get Prescience which is just plain handy for manipulating the odds of an important roll.

Universalist, Generalist, something like that. *shrug* Prescience is great, granted, but I find Universalist has the better midgame tools. Guess it's ultimately down to where you want your bonuses.

[Callista]

Which one is better depends on which party you are trying to fit the character into.

If you're playing a high power level party which already has a utility or battlefield control wizard and/or well-played cleric, then the Sorcerer will definitely play second fiddle. You can design a sorcerer to be as powerful as an average wizard, though. There are lots of guides out there.

If you're playing a medium-powered party, the Sorcerer will fit right in as artillery and battlefield-control. A very min-maxed Sorcerer may be the most powerful character in the party, but since the most powerful sorcerers tend to do things like hampering the enemy and buffing the party while letting the other party members do the actual killing, that's not the end of the world because he's still depending on the rest of the party to be effective.

If you're playing a low-powered party, the Sorcerer will overpower the rest of the party after about 5th-8th level. For this Sorcerer, it's probably best to just play a blaster--evocation and chip away at the enemy's hit points. That reduces your flexibility enough that you can fit in with your lower-powered party.

If you're new to D&D, managing your character's and your party's power level is probably one of the most important skills to learn--right after general fair play and the ability to read the PHB through at least once, so you know what you're doing. Unlike most games, you're not competing with the other people you're playing with; you're trying to form a cohesive team. You can't do that with uneven power levels. If you have uneven power levels, the DM can't challenge the powerful characters without destroying the weaker ones, and that's no fun for anyone involved.