Official Pathfinder broken spells

[warmachine]

One of my Pathfinder DMs is allowing all, official Pathfinder spells but, of course, reserves the right to ban or fix them if they turn out to be broken. I know some spells, such as Glitterdust, were nerfed, so the list should be manageable. So, which official spells are broken? You can suggest a fix if you like.

[ericgrau]

They did nerf various spells. Yet I think the new problem spells involve power creep than anything. Most brokenness can, like 3.5e, be solved by not trying to exploit rules loopholes.

One such spell, which I am guilty of using, is the first level cleric spell called grace. First Pathfinder nerfs tumble by making it harder to automatically succeed, then they make a level 1 spell that automatically succeeds without a roll. At full speed, in heavy armor. I think there are other such spells like this in the advanced player's guide and ultimate magic. Whether or not they're too much for your group, I cannot say. Some power creep is in line with Pathfinder's boost in general to everything which means it no longer fits the definition of power creep, but I think the later books take it a step further.

[Baroncognito]

One such spell, which I am guilty of using, is the first level cleric spell called grace. First Pathfinder nerfs tumble by making it harder to automatically succeed, then they make a level 1 spell that automatically succeeds without a roll. At full speed, in heavy armor.

Grace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/grace) is a second level cleric Spell (first level paladin) and it lasts until the end of your turn.

That hardly seems broken. Grace, unlike tumble, has a limit to the number of times per combat you can use it.

[Chained Birds]

Feat: Fire God's Blessing
+
Orison: Spark
+
Torch (Or other item(s) that can be subject to the spark spell multiple times.)
=
Infinite healing!

A nifty trick for any half-orc cleric in that anytime they cast a spell with the [Fire] descriptor (i.e. spark) they may heal a target equal to half the caster's lvl. As spark is an orison capable of being cast an infinite number of times, all you need is something to burn (then put out if you're a good guy and don't want to get on Smokey's bad side) and now you never need to buy a wand of cure light wounds ever again.

[Curious]

Oppressive Boredom - a 2nd level spell that knocks you out of the combat for rounds/level on a successful save.

[Baroncognito]

Oppressive Boredom - a 2nd level spell that knocks you out of the combat for rounds/level on a successful save.

You're reading that wrong.


You fill your target with boredom. The target loses all interest in its current task and must make a Will save against the spell’s effect in order to perform its next action. If the target fails, it takes no action that round. The boredom lasts until the duration expires or the target breaks the spell’s effect with a successful Will save.

So, Will negates, and the target gets to make one will save in each round that it attempts an action.

[Curious]

You're reading that wrong.



So, Will negates, and the target gets to make one will save in each round that it attempts an action.

Hm, should have read it myself before going off word-of-keyboard. Thanks for the clarification.

[Akisa]

I have to say Solid Fog is broken, but because it's over powered but the fact that it's way too weak for its level.

[Bhaakon]

Feat: Fire God's Blessing
+
Orison: Spark
+
Torch (Or other item(s) that can be subject to the spark spell multiple times.)
=
Infinite healing!


Unless your character has some kind of blood feud going against well-seasoned lumber, I don't think casting spark on a torch counts as dealing fire damage to an enemy combatant

[Baroncognito]

Unless your character has some kind of blood feud going against well-seasoned lumber, I don't think casting spark on a torch counts as dealing fire damage to an enemy combatant

I'd hazard that the feat being considered is actually Glorious Heat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/glorious-heat).

[Ravens_cry]

I'd hazard that the feat being considered is actually Glorious Heat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/glorious-heat).
Heh, two divine casters could heal the whole party out of combat with that, assuming you do not count as your own ally.
Even with one, you can heal everyone but yourself, still pretty nice.

[ericgrau]

Grace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/grace) is a second level cleric Spell (first level paladin) and it lasts until the end of your turn.

That hardly seems broken. Grace, unlike tumble, has a limit to the number of times per combat you can use it.
Oops, I need to fix that. There hasn't yet been a time when my mistake would have made the slightest difference though. Even at level 2, you will still never ever run out. A typical rogue tumbles maybe once or twice per combat, if at all. A battle cleric uses it about as often and a healbot the same or maybe 1 more. And I'm being generous: so far it's come up 0 or 1 times per fight as a healbot.

[legomaster00156]

I'd hazard that the feat being considered is actually Glorious Heat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/glorious-heat).

Huh. I might recommend that feat to the cleric of Sarenrae in my party. I doubt she'll figure out the loophole to abuse it. :smallamused:

[Ravens_cry]

Just be sure cover your ears for the squee of joy if she does.
It would be much more balanced, though perhaps the other way, if it functioned as "the level of the spell" for the hit points regained.

[Keneth]

Well it's hardly broken as it is. It would heal 10hp at lvl20 in exchange for a standard action. Sure, the cleric can use it infinitely but I've always advocated that the cleric shouldn't run out of basic healing spells in the same way a wizard never runs out of basic damaging spells (hence orisons and cantrips no longer have expendable slots).

[Frosty]

Huh. I might recommend that feat to the cleric of Sarenrae in my party. I doubt she'll figure out the loophole to abuse it. :smallamused:
They errata'ed it. Or if not officially yet, then on the Paizo forums the makers of the game have stated they will put the fix in the next errata. Effectively, the change is now: Heal equal to Spell Level instead of 1/2 Caster Level. So, Orisons heal 0.

[Keneth]

They errata'ed it. Or if not officially yet, then on the Paizo forums the makers of the game have stated they will put the fix in the next errata. Effectively, the change is now: Heal equal to Spell Level instead of 1/2 Caster Level. So, Orisons heal 0. Meh, forcing the players to wait around for the cleric to regain spell in order to heal up is counter productive to the game flow. They should be fixing stuff that actually is broken, like the monk.

[ericgrau]

That's what dirt cheap wands of cure light wounds are for. And at low levels, you're supposed to actually care about mundane things. The main plot point for the beginning of one campaign I was in was disease. Even putting low level PCs aside, ending the world's problems for the low level masses via unlimited anything leads to the tippyverse. Whether actually available at level 1 or reasonably administered at will to thousands by each of the level 5 leaders.

[Keneth]

Any clerics with unlimited healing abilities willing to apply them to general population are offset by spellcasters with equally unlimited potential to deal damage. Besides, unless you're playing E6, all universes have the potential to be tippyverses even without unlimited abilities, they're not simply because all the adventurers are out for personal glory. I have never ever gone to the slums of any city to feed or cure the less fortunate, having unlimited amounts of healing wouldn't really change that, I've got monsters to kill and princesses to save after all.

[ericgrau]

They're not because commoners outnumber even low level adventurers 1,000-10,000 to 1. Clerics in particular have plenty of selfless, gloryless members serving as NPCs in churches, letting others adventure. But beyond 1st-3rd level there simply aren't that many, and even level 1 clerics are under 5% of the population (I forget the exact number).

Even at-will damage is impractical to occur for more than a few rounds, as the subject struggles a bit more than a patient being healed. At-will healing happens for hours, thousands of rounds.

Just get a wand if you're adventuring, assuming low level slots and channeling doesn't already cover it.

[Keneth]

You're implying that out of those thousands that outnumber you, all get grievously wounded on a daily basis. Other than wars and plagues, nothing would really tax the collective spellcasters so much that they couldn't make hospitals, farmers, stonemasons etc. obsolete.

[ericgrau]

At level 3, and much fewer at level 5, they could not make enough food or stone to make farming and construction obsolete.

A plague is precisely the plot point I described earlier, the crux of an entire adventure, and with the rarity of remove disease even with other common diseases you're better off getting someone to make a few heal checks than to find the only 5th level cleric per thousands of people. He has better things to do, more important people to cure, etc. The standard 150 gp fee is not unreasonable for the low supply, and those that can't pay are left out. People still get sick all the time or else have some other condition besides disease that needs fixing.

[Keneth]

I've already established that I'm not talking about low-level casters.

And yes natural disasters and plagues could overwhelm casters but there should really be people dedicated to monitoring the environment for such things and quench disease outbreaks before they spread out, or evacuate people before a tornado ravages a town. There is no absolutely no good reason why any such things should pose a problem apart from general "human" selfishness, unlimited resources merely ensure that the machine works smoothly.

But back to the original gist of the discussion, having unlimited healing capabilities doesn't automatically result in a tippyverse. The current clergy of the good gods should already be able to fully cover any actual healing that the people need, while not having to worry about their spell resources surely would increase their potential to heal, there simply is not enough opportunity to do so. This would only really shine in a war campaign where injuries are many and constant but even then it wouldn't make much of a difference mechanically.

[ericgrau]

Simple solution to make sure it doesn't happen at low levels: bump up the caster level requirement on the feat to make its users that much more rare among NPCs or better yet give it a virtually but not actually unlimited number of uses per day, say 20-50.

[Gettles]

Am I alone in thinking that Create Pi (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-pit)t is really good for a second level spell?

[ericgrau]

2nd level reflex save-or-lose hitting 1-2 targets? And most things can't get out of it until it ends with climb DC 25. Ya that is too much for 2nd level. Especially right after they nerfed glitterdust which at least lets you fight blind.

[Karoht]

Blessing of Fervor is an awesome party buff. Cleric Spell, I want to say 4th level but I think it might actually be 5th. My memory just sucks today.
You get to choose between 1 of 4 effects, every round.
-1 extra attack on a full round attack (doesn't stack with haste)
-+2 bonus to AC and Reflex, I think hit rolls as well.
-No penalty for getting up quickly
-Free metamagic (from a list of 4 feats) for First and Second Level spells.
It's party wide.
If you're into Divine Metamagic and are willing to give up a Channel or two a day, I hear tell that you can have this or other buffs up pretty much constantly. I've never touched DMM so I wouldn't know.

[Akisa]

2nd level reflex save-or-lose hitting 1-2 targets? And most things can't get out of it until it ends with climb DC 25. Ya that is too much for 2nd level. Especially right after they nerfed glitterdust which at least lets you fight blind.

But looses its umph once you start facing against flying creatures.

[Bigthink]

Unless your character has some kind of blood feud going against well-seasoned lumber, I don't think casting spark on a torch counts as dealing fire damage to an enemy combatant

So Durkon would have no problems abusing a rule like this, eh?

[Khosan]

2nd level reflex save-or-lose hitting 1-2 targets? And most things can't get out of it until it ends with climb DC 25. Ya that is too much for 2nd level. Especially right after they nerfed glitterdust which at least lets you fight blind.

Technically it's DC 20 to climb out. There's corners to brace against which lower the DC by 5 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/climb).

[Golkiwu]

Blessing of Fervor is an awesome party buff. Cleric Spell, I want to say 4th level but I think it might actually be 5th. My memory just sucks today.
You get to choose between 1 of 4 effects, every round.
-1 extra attack on a full round attack (doesn't stack with haste)
-+2 bonus to AC and Reflex, I think hit rolls as well.
-No penalty for getting up quickly
-Free metamagic (from a list of 4 feats) for First and Second Level spells.
It's party wide.
If you're into Divine Metamagic and are willing to give up a Channel or two a day, I hear tell that you can have this or other buffs up pretty much constantly. I've never touched DMM so I wouldn't know.

It is 4th Level. Awesome Spell. I use it often with my Dwarven Cleric(s).

[Stux]

Paragon Surge. Standard action to get, amongst other things, any feat you qualify for temporarily for 1 minute per/level.

Lots of potential abuses for that, but the classic one is for Improved Eldritch Heritage, taking the 9th level Arcane bloodline power - thus allowing you to temporarily know any spell for the wizard list at a moments notice.

Whether it is actually broken, well I'm not sure. There is much debate. But it is powerful enough to seriously piss off a DM if they aren't expecting it!

[Drachasor]

1. Blood Money (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money): probably the most broken spell in that it allows you to replace all material costs of other spells with strength loss. Free wishes? Quite doable.

2. Simulacrum: They got rid of the material component. Best answer I got as to why was because the DM had to adjudicate it anyway. Weird. Now you can simulacrum anything if you just know about it.

3. Maybe not broken, but the Summon Monster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster)spells got major buffs (Nature's Ally got significantly nerfed). This is to the point where SM will summon the same thing as NA, but then adds a template on top (this takes a few spell levels to get to...I think it kicks in around SM IV). There's an additional feat now so you get +1 monster when summoning multiples.

4. Minor, but Crafter's Curse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/crafter-s-curse) gives the target -5 on all Craft checks for 1 day/level. It's a first level spell. That's really nasty to NPC crafters. (probably not literally broken in that it won't upset the game, but too powerful for the level, I think).

5. It's metamagic, but Dazing Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/dazing-spell-metamagic) is ridiculously powerful. Toss it on something that does a bit of damage every round, and you guarantee a stunlock on enemies. Worst case, you might need to coat an area in two such spells.

6. Burning Disarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/burning-disarm) is pretty good. Target takes 1d4/level damage or disarms himself. One of the few spells where it is a Save to TAKE damage. (First level spell again)

7. Ok, not broken, but Determine Depth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/determine-depth) is something in the running for worst 2nd level spell that does something. This is literally something that would be ok as a cantrip.

8. Speaking of Cantrips, Daze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/daze) is pretty good now. Only works on humanoids of no more than 4HD, but making them lose an action is nice. But you can only make them lose an action once in a minute. You CAN keep casting until they fail a save though. Probably not broken though.

9. Mirror Image (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mirror-image) can't be cleaved now (in part since they changed how Cleave works). Not broken, but really, really good.

Veered off a bit of broken spells there. I'll look through some more spells later.

[avr]

Crafter's curse is nice for extorting money from skilled workers I guess, but it seems entirely appropriate at level 1 to me.

Burning disarm sounds good until you realise they can choose to just take the damage and keep their weapon. Then you realise it's magic missile with limitations.

[Drachasor]

Crafter's curse is nice for extorting money from skilled workers I guess, but it seems entirely appropriate at level 1 to me.

Burning disarm sounds good until you realise they can choose to just take the damage and keep their weapon. Then you realise it's magic missile with limitations.

If it didn't last days, I'd agree. But it seems like a very large penalty for a long time for a 1st level spell, even with the limit to craft checks.

As for Burning Disarm, while its max damage is just 5d4, it ramps up much faster (1d4/level, not every other level). So at 5th level that's 5d4 damage vs. Magic Missiles 3d4+3, optionally on a successful save. Otherwise the target is disarmed (if they are disarmed, best to have your unseen servant grab the weapon and run back with it). I'd say the faster ramp makes it more metamagic friendly (for certain metamagics anyhow).

I went off on weird spells a bit more than OP ones though, I admit. Burning Disarm is more weird than anything.

[Psyren]

I love that Paragon Surge, Blood Money and Simulacrum took two pages to be mentioned :smalltongue:

Create Pit is fine.

[Snowbluff]

Simulacrum is really good. I think it's slightly weaker than the 3.5 version unless PF has made some crazy powerful monsters. Solars are still an option, IIRC. It's still one of my favorite spells ever. There's even a lesser version so you can get your gossamer and snow fix for a day or so. :smalltongue:



9. Mirror Image (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mirror-image) can't be cleaved now (in part since they changed how Cleave works). Not broken, but really, really good.

Um... it could only be cleaved by people with a very poor understanding of the rules in the first place. Mirror images do not have HP to be dropped.

[Psyren]

Simulacrum is really only broken if your DM is lazy. The spell requires them to limit what you get out of it and some are not willing to make the effort.

If they're not willing to do so they should probably just ban it.

[Snowbluff]

Simulacrum is really only broken if your DM is lazy. The spell requires them to limit what you get out of it and some are not willing to make the effort.

If they're not willing to do so they should probably just ban it.

Not that it means anything. If the DM nerfs it, that doesn't change the fact the spell is broken. However, you can't get anything stronger than yourself most of the time. Having abilities of a creature that HD would probably include spellcasting. A 14 HD solar would have 14th level cleric casting, for example.

[Psyren]

Not that it means anything. If the DM nerfs it, that doesn't change the fact the spell is broken.

It's not the DM nerfing it though - it's the DM doing what the spell tells him to do, i.e. the creature should have half its HD worth of abilities. There is a difference between outright houseruling, and interpreting RAW.

Also, you can't get a 14 HD Solar from the spell - the max you can get is 11, because Solars are 22.

[Alent]

Even after being fixed with Errata, Limp Lash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/limp-lash) is still really good for killing anything huge or larger.

[Snowbluff]

It's not the DM nerfing it though - it's the DM doing what the spell tells him to do, i.e. the creature should have half its HD worth of abilities. There is a difference between outright houseruling, and interpreting RAW.

Also, you can't get a 14 HD Solar from the spell - the max you can get is 11, because Solars are 22.
Even with half of the HD, these creatures are really strong. That has nothing to do with the DM in the first place. 11 HD solar with 11th level cleric casting, SR 21, and regeneration still makes for a fierce companion.

You are right about the solar, it seems. In 3.5, Solars could be huge and have 66 HD. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

That's where the questions come in though. Would a 11HD Solar have SR 21? You could just as easily argue for SR 17 (half of 34). Would it have regeneration at all? The 12 HD Movanic Deva doesn't. And so on. Like all monster creation, it is as much art as science. Would it have CL 11? Even at 22 HD it only has CL 20, so you could as easily say it only has CL 10 and thus deny it 6th-level spells. And so on down the line.

The spell is purposefully vague to allow for this kind of interplay between player and DM.

[Snowbluff]

I'm only going to the things I could easily take a knife to. 10+HD is a common guideline for SR. Regeneration isn't as big of a deal as it is in 3.5. CL 10 sounds arguable. It says the abilities should be appropriate for a creature of that level (11), so 11 would work as well. The only tough one is the SLAs, in which case I say chop everything about 6th level. Feats would be cut in reverse order.

[Psyren]

Totally agreed on taking a knife and your reasoning.

I guess what I'm ultimately saying is that it's probably a good idea to chat with the DM on what exactly you'll get out of the spell before you start casting it. Usually it takes long enough to cast it that both of you will have a little time to hash things out a bit, though there are exceptions (e.g. Wish.)

[The Trickster]

Maybe these are just broken for my group and I, but I still feel that Black Tentacles, even while nerfed, is still strong.

Blindness/Deafness as a level 2 spell seems strong as well (at least early on).

Teleport is usually banned in every game I play in, so I suppose I can call that broken.

[Vortenger]

Aqueous Orb and Geyser are both well known powerful spells. Aqueous Orb combos well with things like Hideous Laughter, and Geyser is a metamagic dream, or so I hear.

Edit: Didn't Black Tentacles actually get buffed? In 3.5 the spell fired once and unless you left and re-entered the area, it ignored those who resisted the members. In PF that thing fires off every round trying to grab people again and again.

[Allanimal]

How about "Terrible Remorse"


You fill a target with such profound remorse that it begins to harm itself. Each round, the target must save or deal 1d8 points of damage + its Strength modifier to itself using an item held in its hand or with unarmed attacks. If the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow, can take no actions, and takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class.

Even if the target makes its save, it cannot act...
Pretty broken, especially for a 3rd level Bard spell.

[Psyren]

How about "Terrible Remorse"



Even if the target makes its save, it cannot act...
Pretty broken, especially for a 3rd level Bard spell.

That spell got errata'ed twice actually, make sure you're looking at the latest version.

[Snowbluff]

Aboleth Lung is pretty crazy. If the guy doesn't know he has to get to water, you've killed him.


Totally agreed on taking a knife and your reasoning.

I guess what I'm ultimately saying is that it's probably a good idea to chat with the DM on what exactly you'll get out of the spell before you start casting it. Usually it takes long enough to cast it that both of you will have a little time to hash things out a bit, though there are exceptions (e.g. Wish.)
I usually work on the "if you have to ask..." basis. I am not sure their it has a place in most campaigns, even if you get a lousy fighter for it.

Aqueous Orb and Geyser are both well known powerful spells. Aqueous Orb combos well with things like Hideous Laughter, and Geyser is a metamagic dream, or so I hear.

Geyser is good with Dazing spell, since it hits in a wide area several times.

[Allanimal]

That spell got errata'ed twice actually, make sure you're looking at the latest version.

I didn't know that. Never looked again after my DM said "nope, that won't fly. Pick a different spell."...

[Dalebert]

That's what dirt cheap wands of cure light wounds are for.

This. Healing is supposed to be harder than damaging. Anyone can deal damage, even in our non-magical real world, but it takes (usually) divine magic to heal. Healing out of combat becomes a trivial but non-zero (as it should be) cost to any party at relatively low levels via 1st-lvl wands but the actual act of magical healing should never be a zero cost thing. That makes it far too trivial and would have to be assumed to affect the culture of the entire game.


Technically it's DC 20 to climb out. There's corners to brace against which lower the DC by 5 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/climb).

But the spell specifically says DC 25 which I assume takes precedent over the general case. Maybe the walls are shaped in such a way to make climbing more difficult.

I'm not finding it now, but I could swear simulacrum had a clause that said a magical laboratory was the only way to repair it. I'm now only seeing that in ice assassin (Yes, just 3.5, I believe) so maybe that's where I read it.


Damage caused to the ice assassin can be repaired only via a complex process requiring 1 day, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped laboratory.

By that reading, ice assassin's would not be able to benefit from regeneration abilities or any other form of healing/repair, which apparently makes them inferior to simulacrums in one crucial way. I see no reason why you couldn't just cast cure spells on a simulacrum in either 3.5 or PF based on those RAW.

[Psyren]

But the spell specifically says DC 25 which I assume takes precedent over the general case. Maybe the walls are shaped in such a way to make climbing more difficult.

No, the spell is just giving the DC of its walls (every wall in the game has a climb DC.) Other factors like having pitons or using a spell that makes climbing easier will still apply normally.

The corner thing basically limits where you can emerge from the pit if you use it, i.e. you have to come out at one of the diagonals.

[Drachasor]

Simulacrum is really only broken if your DM is lazy. The spell requires them to limit what you get out of it and some are not willing to make the effort.

If they're not willing to do so they should probably just ban it.

Not at all true. You get it at level 13, and you can immediately make level 10 clerics that do whatever you say via Solars (whatever else you might argue, they'd certainly have that much). The cost is ridiculously cheap. Want wizards or other casters? If you KNOW of any you can make simulacrums of them too. Immediately and with little effort. For 500gp per hit die this is an extraordinarily cheap way to get a lot of spells each day for buffs, healing, utility, etc. No need to use them in combat, of course, since you have plenty of use for them elsewhere. Frees up your spells so you don't need utility uses. Though you could potentially use them fairly safely in combat with Ring Gates (just cover up the "in" side) and other clever tricks.

And that's assuming there's nothing like Fast Healing or the like on what you make a Simulacrum from, because there's nothing remotely in the rules that indicates they can't be healed by alternate means. Not that this is necessary, of course.

I don't see how you can think that's balanced.

It's even worse if there are casters who are greater than level 20 in the world.

And that's assuming you DON'T point out that there are creatures with 10 or so hit dice that can cast wish. Kind of skews the whole "appropriate for the hit dice" thing, which is already an extremely vague guideline and doesn't entirely hold true (such as if you simulacrum a dragon, it isn't going to be smaller in size).

Oh, and let's not forget all the spells that can be cast to increase the power of another caster. Again, ring gates come in handy here to keep the simulacrums safe. PF has at least a couple to add metamagic or to allow slots not to be expended, etc.


But the spell specifically says DC 25 which I assume takes precedent over the general case. Maybe the walls are shaped in such a way to make climbing more difficult.

Really I don't think the DC 20 was intended (or it probably would be mentioned). I think the writer forgot about the corner cases (haha). That said, it makes the spell slightly more balanced, but still ridiculously good.


I'm not finding it now, but I could swear simulacrum had a clause that said a magical laboratory was the only way to repair it. I'm now only seeing that in ice assassin (Yes, just 3.5, I believe) so maybe that's where I read it.

...

By that reading, ice assassin's would not be able to benefit from regeneration abilities or any other form of healing/repair, which apparently makes them inferior to simulacrums in one crucial way. I see no reason why you couldn't just cast cure spells on a simulacrum in either 3.5 or PF based on those RAW.

True. I think even a harsher reading that normal magic doesn't repair them would still leave open the idea that natural abilities that repair damage should work. Rather like how Fast Healing works for constructs.

[Psyren]

Not at all true. You get it at level 13, and you can immediately make level 10 clerics that do whatever you say via Solars (whatever else you might argue, they'd certainly have that much).

In that same 12 hours you could simply hire a level 10 cleric. I stand by my statement that lazy DMs lead to most of the problems with this spell.

[Drachasor]

In that same 12 hours you could simply hire a level 10 cleric. I stand by my statement that lazy DMs lead to most of the problems with this spell.

Except you get the 10th level cleric FOREVER and he'll do whatever you want and never need a share of the treasure or the like.

Given how much an individual spell costs, that's a huge savings.

[Psyren]

Except you get the 10th level cleric FOREVER and he'll do whatever you want and never need a share of the treasure or the like.

Given how much an individual spell costs, that's a huge savings.

But the cleric can level up, be healed normally, and gain power. By RAW a Simulacrum can't even buff itself. It's strong, obviously, but at the same time if you have half a day of downtime to do this there isn't much going on in your campaign anyway as far as I'm concerned.

[Snowbluff]

Having buffing spells doesn't count as having a way of becoming more powerful. :smalltongue:

[Drachasor]

But the cleric can level up, be healed normally, and gain power. By RAW a Simulacrum can't even buff itself. It's strong, obviously, but at the same time if you have half a day of downtime to do this there isn't much going on in your campaign anyway as far as I'm concerned.

I already addressed the healing issue, and that's pretty twisted reasoning to say the Simulacrum can't buff itself. Something I doubt even you'd actually practice in a game.

Wow, so if the PCs ever have even half a day of downtime then nothing is going on? That's a pretty ridiculous standard to have. And rather unfairly dismissive of the vast majority of campaigns out there.

[Psyren]

Having buffing spells doesn't count as having a way of becoming more powerful. :smalltongue:

A buff quite clearly "increases your abilities" - otherwise you wouldn't be using it.
There are plenty of other spells they can cast, or they can buff others, just not themselves.


I already addressed the healing issue, and that's pretty twisted reasoning to say the Simulacrum can't buff itself. Something I doubt even you'd actually practice in a game.

Call it what you like, RAW is RAW.

[Drachasor]

A buff quite clearly "increases your abilities" - otherwise you wouldn't be using it.

It's an APPLICATION of your abilities. There's a pretty big difference.

[Psyren]

It's an APPLICATION of your abilities. There's a pretty big difference.

So if I cast bull's strength on myself, I don't get any stronger than before I cast it? Does haste not make me faster than before?

[Drachasor]

So if I cast bull's strength on myself, I don't get any stronger than before I cast it? Does haste not make me faster than before?

Again, an application OF abilities is different than an increase in abilities. Especially when the context makes it very clear what it is talking about:


A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities.

If it couldn't be buffed, they'd explicitly say that. Instead they're talking about level, natural increase in monster abilities (like a dragon growing older), and stuff like that.

But hey, if you want to ignore obvious RAI and toss in a weird reading of the rules to support what you are saying, go ahead.

Even with that weird reading, it is still too powerful. I imagine the only reason you brought up that reading is because you recognize this.

[Psyren]

You're free to imagine what you like! I'm just reading the text, and it says - they cannot increase their level or abilities. The spell makes no distinction between "application" and increase, whatever that means.

So there are strong disadvantages built into the spell (the above, plus the half-HD thing) and DMs who have problems with it generally do so because they are ignoring one or both.

[Drachasor]

You're free to imagine what you like! I'm just reading the text, and it says - they cannot increase their level or abilities. The spell makes no distinction between "application" and increase, whatever that means.

So there are strong disadvantages built into the spell (the above, plus the half-HD thing) and DMs who have problems with it generally do so because they are ignoring one or both.

Sure. Wish I believed you were actually serious. But if I was to argue it semi-seriously, I'd just have the other simulacra do the buffing. It can't increase its abilities, but that leaves the door open for others to do so. Not sure why you always feel the need to twist yourself up like a pretzel to defend PF all the time. It does more harm than good, imho.*

Doesn't matter though. Most of the applications I gave didn't have anything to do with Simulacra buffing themselves, because there's no need for it. Instead you have them handle a lot of the daily buffs and spells so you don't have to. Then you can use ring gates to let them toss out spells, apply buffs in combat, etc, etc. And of course they can handle all the healing, ability damaging curing, etc, etc that's needed between combat too. And they can handle recharging a lot of staves as well, if you like that sort of thing.

Edit: *But sure, maybe I'm wrong. Now, you decided to be in this thread, so do you think there are any spells in PF that are broken? If so, can you name them? Bonus points if you manage more than one (and Blood Money doesn't count, but feel free to defend Blood Money if you think it is fine).

[Psyren]

Reading plain text is "twisting" now? :smalltongue: How odd!

Sure, you can make two and have them buff each other. That's now 24 hours and over 100k of rubies spent on your minions... at level 13. You may as well give one all your gear instead, since you probably had to hock it all to afford that strategy, but sure, you certainly could do that.

Using one to recharge staves, or buff you, I have no problem with. You could do much the same with a planar ally or similar after all.

[Drachasor]

Reading plain text is "twisting" now? :smalltongue: How odd!

Sure, you can make two and have them buff each other. That's now 24 hours and over 100k of rubies spent on your minions... at level 13. You may as well give one all your gear instead, since you probably had to hock it all to afford that strategy, but sure, you certainly could do that.

Using one to recharge staves, or buff you, I have no problem with. You could do much the same with a planar ally or similar after all.

500gp per hit die. 10 hit dice is 5000gp. Two such creatures is 10k, not 100k. At level 13 the WBL is 140k. So it is not an extravagant expense.

And it is extra twisty for you. You'll argue RAI in PF when it suits your purpose and now are using a "RAW" that's very clearly not the sort of "abilities" or increase the spell is talking about. It's clearly NOT the same standard you use on other game text based on what you've said before. And generally ignoring the CONTEXT is not considered RAW, btw. But whatever floats your boat.

You might have missed it since I added it in an edit, but do you consider ANY spells in PF to be broken? Or is anything broken the fault of stupid DMs who run horrible campaigns where PCs might have as much as 12 hours of free time!

[Psyren]

Of course I do, and I mentioned two of them in this very thread (Blood Money and Paragon Surge.) Those do get altered in my games.

Simulacrum though I feel has enough RAW knobs for the DM to tweak to rein it in just fine, so long as s/he is willing to use them. Not sure why you're getting defensive about it, but hey.

[Drachasor]

Of course I do, and I mentioned two of them in this very thread (Blood Money and Paragon Surge.) Those do get altered in my games.

Simulacrum though I feel has enough RAW knobs for the DM to tweak to rein it in just fine, so long as s/he is willing to use them. Not sure why you're getting defensive about it, but hey.

Not defensive, but annoyed. There's a difference. You often seem to bend over backwards to defend PF to the point of being inconsistent on how you read the rules (sometimes going with weird RAW, sometimes talking about how RAI is most important, etc, etc). And with all due respect, other people have noticed this sort of thing from you regarding PF....and that you much more freely criticize 3.5. So wondering if you think PF has any problems isn't a ridiculous question.

And before this you hadn't actually said you thought any spell was broken. You mentioned Blood Money, Paragon Surge, and Simulacrum together in a list...but then started defending Simulacrum in another post.

Frankly, it is rather bizarre to claim that 5k for for a ton of out-of-combat spells and buffs each day isn't remarkable overpowered compared to any other way you could get that number of spells. Again, just paying a Cleric to cast those spells in one day is more expensive, and that doesn't include asking the Cleric to risk combat.

[Renegade Paladin]

I didn't know that. Never looked again after my DM said "nope, that won't fly. Pick a different spell."...
Post-errata (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/terrible-remorse), the spell ends after a successful save.

[Aquillion]

2nd level reflex save-or-lose hitting 1-2 targets? And most things can't get out of it until it ends with climb DC 25. Ya that is too much for 2nd level. Especially right after they nerfed glitterdust which at least lets you fight blind.It also doesn't say what happens when you make a successful reflex save -- I don't fall, but do I get to take a 'free' five-foot step? It doesn't actually say I do, so technically it leaves me hovering in the air over the pit...

[Psyren]

You often seem to bend over backwards to defend PF to the point of being inconsistent on how you read the rules (sometimes going with weird RAW, sometimes talking about how RAI is most important, etc, etc).

There is no inconsistency here. Look back at my history every single time Simulacrum has been discussed and you'll see me mentioning the need for the DM to truly enforce the half-HD limitation and not to treat the spell like Ice Assassin Lite.

Your due respect is noted.



And before this you hadn't actually said you thought any spell was broken. You mentioned Blood Money, Paragon Surge, and Simulacrum together in a list...but then started defending Simulacrum in another post.

So shouldn't it be pretty obvious that I wasn't defending the two that I wasn't defending? I mean, come on :smallconfused:



Frankly, it is rather bizarre to claim that 5k for for a ton of out-of-combat spells and buffs each day isn't remarkable overpowered compared to any other way you could get that number of spells. Again, just paying a Cleric to cast those spells in one day is more expensive, and that doesn't include asking the Cleric to risk combat.

As I said above (multiple times) the hired cleric has advantages that justify the premium. I'm not saying that the spell is bad - it's very good. But it can be manageable in a campaign if the DM isn't being lazy about it. (There, consistency again.)

[Slipperychicken]

1. Blood Money (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money): probably the most broken spell in that it allows you to replace all material costs of other spells with strength loss. Free wishes? Quite doable.


Negating wish's cost would take ~51 Strength damage, which would almost always render the caster immobile before he can cast the spell. The only way I could think of to negate that involved some other casters readying actions with blood money'd Greater Restorations.

[andreww]

Negating wish's cost would take ~51 Strength damage, which would almost always render the caster immobile before he can cast the spell. The only way I could think of to negate that involved some other casters readying actions with blood money'd Greater Restorations.
Sadly not true. There are various short term strength buffs you can stack to get to at least 55. Or you can Magic Jar into something with enormous strength and start buffing from there. The real issue is whether or not the material components are used as soon as you start casting the spell or you have to have them for the whole cast time. If the latter then it takes out things like Simulacrum.

On powerful spells then I would recommend Emergency Force Sphere (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/emergency-force-sphere). It is functional immortality if you can act in the surprise round like a Diviner Wizard or Battle Oracle and extremely powerful for anyone else. The new Arcanist and the Teleport School Wizard get particular benefit from it being able to leave them sphere on their own turn and still act rather than having to spend an action teleporting/dimension dooring out or dismissing it.

I have been a huge fan of Plane Shift as an offensive spell for a long time, especially for Clerics who more easily add Persistent Spell to it. You do lose any treasure the creature has but many of the things you will use it on (giant animals, dinosaurs, purple worms, the tarrasque) wont have any treasure on them so sending them for a vacation on the negative material plane is no hardship.

Dominate Person is obviously a lot of fun but far more so now that the Giant monster type has become a sub category of Huamnoid. You can now dominate Trolls, Ogres and Giants far sooner than you used to be able to.

Confusion remains an incredibly powerful encounter ending spell if there is more than one creature. If a confused creature is attacked then it will focus on its attacker as its next target. If a confused enemy attacks another confused enemy they are now locked into a confusion attack loop until someone else hits one of them or one of them is dead. Just make sure to warn your party.

Mind Blank is now even better for spellcasters. No longer can people become outright immune to your compulsions but it retains the immunity to see invisible and true seeing. Make sure to invest in a ring of invisibility. Yes protection from alignment spells still exist but they wont be up all the time every time like Mind Blank could be with its 24 hour duration.

Ball Lightning. On its own a rather subpar blasting spell. Combined with Dazing Spell and/or Persistent spell your enemy can be forced to make 5-10 saves or be dazed for 4 rounds and then repeat those saves every round. Use on Bestiary 1 Dragons for real hilarity.

Paragon Surge has already been mentioned but only partially. You don't need to mess around with Eldritch Heritage as a spontaneous caster. Just take Expanded Arcana. Oracles take Improved Eldritch Heritage to access all Wizard Spells. Prepared casters have to know Heighten Spell and then choose Preferred Spell for immediate access to any spell of their type.

Snowball (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/snowball) isn't a bad blasting spell having no SR, no save against the damage and possibly staggering. Intensified and Empowered from a level 3 slot with lineage for 15d6+30 plus isn't terrible if you don't think the game is going much past 10.

Elemental Body 1 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/elemental-body), a great buff spell (small size so increases to AC and hit, stat boosts, natural armour) and a superb movement spell. Its a mixture of Fly, some form of swim spell (Wizards and Clerics make terrible swimmers but cant always avoid going in the drink) and Earth Glide which is an amazing scouting and defensive ability.

Lots of old standbys remain as good as they ever were. Suggestion, Greater Invisibility, Grease, Glitterdust (even with the extra save, just persist it), Dispel Magic (better now as they removed the +10 cap), Contingency, Time Stop, Polymorph any Object etc.

If we are talking Feats then it is all about getting to Spell Perfection and picking the right spell for it. Whatever you pick will have its DC boosted and will tear through SR like it wasn't there. I tend to pick a level 5 spell, or 6 with magical lineage to make sure I can quicken it. I have also seen it used with Animate Dead and some caster level/HD feat boosts (Undead Lord, Spell Specialisation) to increase your control limit through the roof.

You must have 3 metamagic feats to qualify for it. Quicken is likely to be on by level 13. Personally I wouldn't take any caster focused character without Persistent Spell. Targeting a bad save and making them roll twice takes that 30% chance to save and drops it to around 10%. After that it is probably some sort of toss up between Dazing and maybe Reach Spell (for divine casters anyway). Other decent options include Piercing, Extend and maybe Widen for Heavens Oracles knocking everything out with enormous area Colour Sprays.

[Turion]

Fickle Winds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fickle-winds). whole-party minutes/level buff that makes everyone immune to arrows. I seriously have no idea what the thought process was behind this spell. I mean, they obviously thought playing an archer past level 9 was a viable choice, and then they give every caster class this spell. ???

Also, Emergency Force Sphere (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/emergency-force-sphere). Apparently casters didn't have enough ways to say "screw you" to melee, either. As an immediate action, stop a charge or full-attack cold, and give you and those nearby time to buff. Acts as wall of force.

[andreww]

Also, Emergency Force Sphere (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/emergency-force-sphere). Apparently casters didn't have enough ways to say "screw you" to melee, either. As an immediate action, stop a charge or full-attack cold, and give you and those nearby time to buff. Acts as wall of force.
Not just melee but spell casters and everyone else as well. Are you about to be included within the area of effect of some hideous magical assault. Well I just broke line of effect, suck on that sucker! The only thing getting through is probably a gaze attack.

[The Random NPC]

Don't forget the feat Additional Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits). You're just 1 Paragon Surge away from -2 metamagics on any spell.

[andreww]

Don't forget the feat Additional Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits). You're just 1 Paragon Surge away from -2 metamagics on any spell.
Not any spell, Wayang Spell Hunter only applies to level 3 and lower spells.

[The Random NPC]

Not any spell, Wayang Spell Hunter only applies to level 3 and lower spells.

I forgot about that, but still, having a floating -1 or -2 is nice.

[Stux]

You can use it for spell perfection if you meet the prereqs though.

[andreww]

Negating wish's cost would take ~51 Strength damage, which would almost always render the caster immobile before he can cast the spell. The only way I could think of to negate that involved some other casters readying actions with blood money'd Greater Restorations.
For reaching the 51 strength required to cast Wish for free use:

9 Base STR
+10 size Form of the Dragon 3 (use shapechange for the longer duration)
+10 morale Blood Rage
+2 profane Succubus Boon
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection)
+8 inherent Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a +8 Inherent option for 2k
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (reduces the damage by 6) =

Effective 51 strength or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left

If you need to start with a higher strength then magic jar into something first.

[Gemini476]

For reaching the 51 strength required to cast Wish for free use:

9 Base STR
+10 size Form of the Dragon 3 (use shapechange for the longer duration)
+10 morale Blood Rage
+2 profane Succubus Boon
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection)
+8 inherent Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a +8 Inherent option for 2k
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (reduces the damage by 6) =

Effective 51 strength or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left

If you need to start with a higher strength then magic jar into something first.
Or, if you want less cheesy boost-stacking, use Blood Money with Fabricate to save your Blood Money for later. Make a bunch of smaller diamonds during downtime and use Fabricate to make them into a big 25k gp diamond.

It's still cheesy, but has less boost-stacking.

[Aquillion]

Also, Emergency Force Sphere (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/emergency-force-sphere). Apparently casters didn't have enough ways to say "screw you" to melee, either. As an immediate action, stop a charge or full-attack cold, and give you and those nearby time to buff. Acts as wall of force.Level four? That's insane! I skimmed it and assumed it was level seven or eight (and it would still be one of the best spells available in those levels.) An immediate-action get-out-of-jail-free card that instantly stops almost anything with no roll, and continues to protect you for a significant number of rounds, at level four?

I also like how the write-up seems obsessed with using it against avalanches, which is a bit like talking about how good Excalibur is at opening letters. My guess is that they wanted to make a spell to save you from cave-ins and simply didn't think about how overwhelmingly powerful it would be in combat or, well, anything else.

I mean, for a great many applications it's going to be superior to Wall of Force, which is considered one of the game's most useful spells and doesn't come online until a level later.

[andreww]

It is crazily good and pretty much an auto pick for me on any character capable of casting it. It does prevent you from affecting things outside of it in subsequent rounds but it can be a great place to spend time casting summon monster spells.

One handy trick is using it with either the Arcanist or Teleport school wizard. Both have shift/move action teleport abilities so you can shield yourself and shift out of it on your turn and still get a spell off.

[Psyren]

It is crazily good and pretty much an auto pick for me on any character capable of casting it. It does prevent you from affecting things outside of it in subsequent rounds but it can be a great place to spend time casting summon monster spells.

This doesn't work; The force sphere blocks line of effect, so you can't stand in your safety bubble and summon willy-nilly.

[andreww]

This doesn't work; The force sphere blocks line of effect, so you can't stand in your safety bubble and summon willy-nilly.
You certainly can, you just have to summon them inside the sphere. If you are stuck with full round casting summoning it works well. Sure there may be space issues but it can work.

[Psyren]

You certainly can, you just have to summon them inside the sphere. If you are stuck with full round casting summoning it works well. Sure there may be space issues but it can work.

Oh, I read it as 5ft. diameter instead of radius. Still, that means you're limited to small and medium critters, so you're very limited in terms of what you can actually bring out.

[skyth]

500gp per hit die. 10 hit dice is 5000gp. Two such creatures is 10k, not 100k. At level 13 the WBL is 140k. So it is not an extravagant expense.

And it is extra twisty for you. You'll argue RAI in PF when it suits your purpose and now are using a "RAW" that's very clearly not the sort of "abilities" or increase the spell is talking about. It's clearly NOT the same standard you use on other game text based on what you've said before. And generally ignoring the CONTEXT is not considered RAW, btw. But whatever floats your boat.




Also, you have to consider that under RAW, money can be manufacturered rather quickly in Pathfinder by any character that has at least 100 gp. So costly material components aren't really a concern.

Plus the Simulacrum can have the leadership feat :) Combine the two ideas above...Well, you got a nice pretty much game-breaking situation. (Well, just the Simulacrum having leadership is potentially game breaking).

[The Random NPC]

For reaching the 51 strength required to cast Wish for free use:

9 Base STR
+10 size Form of the Dragon 3 (use shapechange for the longer duration)
+10 morale Blood Rage
+2 profane Succubus Boon
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection)
+8 inherent Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a +8 Inherent option for 2k
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (reduces the damage by 6) =

Effective 51 strength or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left

If you need to start with a higher strength then magic jar into something first.

Even better, I've been collecting various methods of fueling Blood Money, and I've found a way that doesn't involve other, potentially treacherous, creatures.
7 Base
+10 Size: Form of the Dragon 3 spell
+10 Morale: Blood Rage spell
+8 Enhancement: Heart of the Mammoth spell
+8 Inherent: Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess item
+6 Prevented: Ring of Inner Fortitude item
+2 Boost: +5 Courageous Weapon weapon enchantment
51 strength total, now all we need is another +6 stacking bonus to strength and we can play anything.


Also, you have to consider that under RAW, money can be manufacturered rather quickly in Pathfinder by any character that has at least 100 gp. So costly material components aren't really a concern.

Plus the Simulacrum can have the leadership feat :) Combine the two ideas above...Well, you got a nice pretty much game-breaking situation. (Well, just the Simulacrum having leadership is potentially game breaking).

Would you mind elaborating? I'd like to know how to make money quickly.

[skyth]

Would you mind elaborating? I'd like to know how to make money quickly.

If you have 100 gp, take the wealthy cost of living. This allows you to search your house and find any nonmagic item up to 5gp in 1d10 minutes. Keep on looking for 5gp gems. Every 5.5 minutes, on average, you will find one. This means that you'll make around 500 gp every 8 hours doing that. If you have 1000 gp, you can go for the extravagant lifestyle which will multiply this by 5. Add in leadership and having all your followers do this...Is a lot of cash :) Nested leadership and a demi-plane with double speed on a 20th level character means several million gp per day.


Plus, if you're a caster, you can sell the casting of your orisons...Which means you can make 12,000 gp in an 8 hour day. (2.5 gp per cast, 1 cast per round)

All per RAW, but I'd never let fly in a campaign I'm running.

[Splendor]

Making money Quick? High levels its easy, how about at a low level (like 5th)

1) Master Alchemist feat allows you to make alot of money.

+5 - Ranks in Craft (Alchemy)
+5 - Crafter's Fortune Spell
+2 - Master Alchemist
+4 - Int Bonus
+2 - Alchemist's Lab
+2 - Propitiation (or any other bonus)
Is an easy +20, so by taking 10 you can get DC 30.
Purple worm poison is DC 24
Normally you'd make 720sp worth of of poison in 1 week, but with Master Alchemist feat you make 4 doses in 1 week and it would cost you 934gp. You sell those all four doses for 1/2 price and you make 700gp profit for 1 week's worth of work.

You can also make normal alchemical items just remember you produce GP work per week not SP. So a week making and selling alchemist's fire and you'll make 150gp/week.

2) Traits and Item creation
Merchant Family Trait (Source Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition Player's Guide pg. 4) or Favored Son (Ameiko) + ANY ITEM CRAFTING FEAT.

Merchant Family and Favored Son both allow you to sell items for an additional +10%. If you read this as selling for 60% or selling for 50%+10% you get alot of money.

So with crafting you can make a 1000gp magical item per day for 500gp. With the traits you sell it for 550 (or 600 depending on how you interpret the reading of the trait). So each day you make 50gp (or 100 gp).

If you combine this with trait hedge magician (-5% to item creation costs) then you make a 1000gp magical item for 475gp and sell it for 550 (or 600gp) and you make 75gp (or 125gp) each day.

3) Gaining and Using Capital + Item creation

Skilled Work: If you have ranks in a useful skill, you can spend 1 day working in a settlement to earn more capital than you would doing unskilled work.

Although you can't sell capital, you can use it for its listed Purchased Cost as payment toward any applicable downtime activity that requires you to spend gp. For example, if you are brewing a potion, you can spend 1 point of Magic toward the cost of the materials needed to make the potion as if that point were equal to 100 gp.
Lets say you don't have any useable skills you can still make a character level check to earn capital (d20+stat+level-5). So lets be nice and say you have a +5 in your stat and are 5th level. You take 10 and your total is 15. This earns you 1 point of "Magic" Capital.
You work 5 days for 5 "Magic Capital" then using this capital you make a 1000gp base magic item (which you spend 500gp or 5 magic capital) making. Then sell the item for 1/2 price and you make 500gp for 6 days worth of work (5 days working, 1 day crafting).

If you have ranks in actual usable skills you can make alot more this way.

[Roog]

Blood Money + Masterwork Transformation will earn you 150gp/day at level 3.

Add a way to recover STR damage, and you can earn several times that.

[deuxhero]

I assume line of effect stops you from targeting the flame in a bullseye lantern with pyrotechnics without having line of sight to the fire for the effect, but if I'm wrong it's 3.5 glitterdust in a cone.

[Slipperychicken]

Add a way to recover STR damage, and you can earn several times that.

If you have two high-level Clerics (one with True Rez, one with Greater Restoration) both with readied actions and some way to access Blood Money (scroll? potion? custom item?), you could effectively cast True Rez for almost nothing.

Basically, it goes like this:

Cleric #1 casts Blood Money to create the 25,000gp component for true rez, and gets paralyzed by strength damage.
Cleric #2 casts blood money to get the material component for Restoration and casts it on Cleric #1 before the round ends (in the process healing the strength damage and waking him up).
Then, Cleric #1 actually casts True Rez for free.


This combo should work for other expensive spells (i.e. Wish), and Cleric #1 can be replaced with basically any spellcaster class.

[DarthMask]

Cleric #1 casts Blood Money to create the 25,000gp component for true rez, and gets paralyzed by strength damage.
Cleric #2 casts blood money to get the material component for Restoration and casts it on Cleric #1 before the round ends (in the process healing the strength damage and waking him up).
Then, Cleric #1 actually casts True Rez for free.


No, I keep hearing this "broken" combo with Blood Money and (while I don't disagree that the spell is OP) it will NOT work.

Simple reason: Casting time for Blood Money (Swift Action, not Immediate) and this clause: Material components created by blood money transform back into blood at the end of the round if they have not been used as a material component.

Complicated Reason: True resurrection has a 10 minute cast time, STR damage lowering STR to 0 or less causes unconsciousness, not paralysis (breaking concentration on a cast-time spell longer than 1 action), and you cannot ready any action that takes longer than a standard action (nor can you ready while unconscious)!

Now, there is nothing saying that you can't do some of the other (less broken) stuff that Blood Money allows, but things like True Rez and Wish simply cannot be done for free using this method.

[Aquillion]

No, I keep hearing this "broken" combo with Blood Money and (while I don't disagree that the spell is OP) it will NOT work.

Simple reason: Casting time for Blood Money (Swift Action, not Immediate) and this clause: Material components created by blood money transform back into blood at the end of the round if they have not been used as a material component.

Complicated Reason: True resurrection has a 10 minute cast time, STR damage lowering STR to 0 or less causes unconsciousness, not paralysis (breaking concentration on a cast-time spell longer than 1 action), and you cannot ready any action that takes longer than a standard action (nor can you ready while unconscious)!

Now, there is nothing saying that you can't do some of the other (less broken) stuff that Blood Money allows, but things like True Rez and Wish simply cannot be done for free using this method.Wait, can't you just... have one cleric cast Blood Money to cast True Resurrection (and go unconscious rather than actually casting it), then have the second cleric (who has previously adjusted their initiative to after the first Cleric) pick up the diamond before the round ends and use it to cast True Rez? Nothing says you have to use the diamond yourself; and once Cleric 2 starts casting, the diamond won't vanish, since it's being used as a material component.

Obviously Cleric 2 restores Cleric 1 after they're done.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Surprised I haven't seen this particular mention of Simulacrum potential abuse: meet the Drakainia. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/drakainia) She is CR 25, with a Mythic rank of 10. Her inspiration can be traced to Echidna, Mother of Monsters. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echidna_(mythology)) You'd need 12,500 gp worth of powdered rubies to cover the material component.

In theory, if you do that, you have a monster factory. Now, technically, the Drakainia's children have no reason to listen to her... well, unless they fear Invert Birth.

[Snowbluff]

Surprised I haven't seen this particular mention of Simulacrum potential abuse: meet the Drakainia. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/drakainia) She is CR 25, with a Mythic rank of 10. Her inspiration can be traced to Echidna, Mother of Monsters. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echidna_(mythology)) You'd need 12,500 gp worth of powdered rubies to cover the material component.

In theory, if you do that, you have a monster factory. Now, technically, the Drakainia's children have no reason to listen to her... well, unless they fear Invert Birth.

Well, I was talking about this to someone on minmax.

Simulacrum a Samsaran Witch 20 who knows Simulacrum (from summoner list) and Blood Money. The level 10 simulacra can keep producing more of themselves from that original.

[The Random NPC]

No, I keep hearing this "broken" combo with Blood Money and (while I don't disagree that the spell is OP) it will NOT work.

Simple reason: Casting time for Blood Money (Swift Action, not Immediate) and this clause: Material components created by blood money transform back into blood at the end of the round if they have not been used as a material component.

Complicated Reason: True resurrection has a 10 minute cast time, STR damage lowering STR to 0 or less causes unconsciousness, not paralysis (breaking concentration on a cast-time spell longer than 1 action), and you cannot ready any action that takes longer than a standard action (nor can you ready while unconscious)!

Now, there is nothing saying that you can't do some of the other (less broken) stuff that Blood Money allows, but things like True Rez and Wish simply cannot be done for free using this method.

I was going to say that Strength damage results in paralyzation, but it seems they changed that.
James Jacob has said that all you need to do is start casting a spell to use Blood Money components, but I think he changed his mind later.
Wish is a Standard Action, and with a base of 8 Strength, you can buff up to 51. That will allow you to remain standing, allowing you to cast it.

[Slipperychicken]

No, I keep hearing this "broken" combo with Blood Money and (while I don't disagree that the spell is OP) it will NOT work.

Simple reason: Casting time for Blood Money (Swift Action, not Immediate) and this clause: Material components created by blood money transform back into blood at the end of the round if they have not been used as a material component.

Complicated Reason: True resurrection has a 10 minute cast time, STR damage lowering STR to 0 or less causes unconsciousness, not paralysis (breaking concentration on a cast-time spell longer than 1 action), and you cannot ready any action that takes longer than a standard action (nor can you ready while unconscious)!

Now, there is nothing saying that you can't do some of the other (less broken) stuff that Blood Money allows, but things like True Rez and Wish simply cannot be done for free using this method.

It took me a bit to find it (the post you quoted is more than a year old), but I remember my reasoning now.


The idea is that when Cleric #1 returns to his senses and begins casting True Resurrection, he is then using the blood (which turned into a diamond) as a material component, and that satisfies the requirement. Blood Money (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money) does not require the spell to be completed within that round, nor for the material component to be consumed within that round; only that the blood-diamond be used as a material component. Considering that the caster needs to be able to manipulate the material component (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Choosing-a-Spell) to cast a spell which requires it, I think it's safe to say that it is being used from the moment the casting process begins. The duration of Blood Money (instantaneous) does not pose any restriction either.

The rule-change to unconsciousness from paralysis can be dealt with easily: Cleric #2 will instead cast Blood Money on his turn, then ready his action to cast Greater Restoration on Cleric #1's turn (after the latter casts Blood Money and falls unconscious). Then, Cleric #1 will wake up on his turn and begin casting True Resurrection.

[The Random NPC]

It took me a bit to find it (the post you quoted is more than a year old), but I remember my reasoning now.


The idea is that when Cleric #1 returns to his senses and begins casting True Resurrection, he is then using the blood (which turned into a diamond) as a material component, and that satisfies the requirement. Blood Money (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money) does not require the spell to be completed within that round, nor for the material component to be consumed within that round; only that the blood-diamond be used as a material component. Considering that the caster needs to be able to manipulate the material component (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Choosing-a-Spell) to cast a spell which requires it, I think it's safe to say that it is being used from the moment the casting process begins. The duration of Blood Money (instantaneous) does not pose any restriction either.

The rule-change to unconsciousness from paralysis can be dealt with easily: Cleric #2 will instead cast Blood Money on his turn, then ready his action to cast Greater Restoration on Cleric #1's turn (after the latter casts Blood Money and falls unconscious). Then, Cleric #1 will wake up on his turn and begin casting True Resurrection.

Unfortunately, there's a forum post that says you can only use Blood Money with spells that take less than a round to cast.

[Pex]

Oops, I need to fix that. There hasn't yet been a time when my mistake would have made the slightest difference though. Even at level 2, you will still never ever run out. A typical rogue tumbles maybe once or twice per combat, if at all. A battle cleric uses it about as often and a healbot the same or maybe 1 more. And I'm being generous: so far it's come up 0 or 1 times per fight as a healbot.

As a cleric you're limited by the amount of times you prepare it. Use it as an oracle like I do, and yowza! I don't think it's broken, just a very nice thing to have.

[atemu1234]

They errata'ed it.

That's something I'll never get used to in Pathfinder. I got so used to 3.5 being dead and unchanging that I'll never get used to something changing in the rules. Does this make my love of 3.5 necrophilia?

[Snowbluff]

They errata'ed it. Or if not officially yet, then on the Paizo forums the makers of the game have stated they will put the fix in the next errata. Effectively, the change is now: Heal equal to Spell Level instead of 1/2 Caster Level. So, Orisons heal 0.

Meh, Wayang Spellhunter can still use it with Merciful Spell, if you really want to spend a trait on it. Either that, or heighten a cantrip with Sacred Geometry.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

No no, Sacred Geometry is a different kind of broken.

[atemu1234]

No no, Sacred Geometry is a different kind of broken.

It's both, honestly.

[Snowbluff]

No no, Sacred Geometry is a different kind of broken. Yeah, the fun kind.

I'm speaking specifically in terms of using that particular feat to heal from cantrips. Though you can probably just combo Wayung Spellhunter with CLW to make CLW a cantrip. *shrug*

[quilciri]

A buff quite clearly "increases your abilities" - otherwise you wouldn't be using it.
There are plenty of other spells they can cast, or they can buff others, just not themselves.



Call it what you like, RAW is RAW.

Sorry for the necro, but my "something is wrong on the internet" instinct is strong right now.

"Ability" is a specific term (e.g. supernatural ability, spell-like ability, class ability, etc)., not just a reference to any aspect of a creature. Simulacrum specifically includes all special abilities (which by definition covers supernatural, spell-like, etc). a Simulacrum using one of its special abilities to buff itself is not "increasing it's abilities".

Nor is the simulacrum becoming more powerful by buffing itself. This is simply potential (stored) vs kinetic. A creature with an expended ability and a buff running is no more powerful than a creature with no buff that retains the ability slot. You could even argue that unless the ability is at will, the creature that has a buff running is less powerful in an absolute sense, since some of the duration has already been lost vs. the creature with an unused ability.

I don't know whether or not the simulacrum would get any actual spells the creature possesses. I would say no by RAW, since spellcasting isn't listed under special abilities.

BTW, you are right about create pit because the wording specifies "the pit has stone walls with a climb DC of 25", which means the climb DC isn't a direct part of the spell but a mundane aspect of the created wall.

cheers!