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flabort
2011-11-24, 12:26 PM
So, I understand some of the basic mechanics of ToB. Each class has a recovery mechanic, and gains a number of maneuvers/stances each level.

I know how the IL system works, that maneuver classes grant separate full ILs, non maneuver classes advance it by half, and maneuver granting PrCs advance ALL ILs by the full amount. I know that when you learn a maneuver, you may pick any that you qualify for, and the highest level you can pick is equal to your IL in that class, divided by two.

But I don't actually have access to ToB beyond the Warblade (which is online), and homebrew. :smallfrown: So I can't dissect the official stuff to create my own ToB homebrew. So I need to ask some questions.

1) Within a given school, how many maneuvers should it have per level?

2) I've noticed that homebrew schools don't grant stances each level. Are they supposed to, or if not, what levels should a school generally grant a stance?

3) As with (2), but for Strikes/Counters/Boosts.

4) So a strike is pretty straight forward, so is a stance. But how do Counters and Boosts work? Do they require actions, when can they be used, etc.?

5) What do a school's associated weapon/skill do? What's the point, what benefit do they grant?

6) As to prerequisites, is 'Must know X maneuvers, and maybe Y of a certain level, from The Same School' the most common form for a maneuver? Can a maneuver ever require knowledge of maneuvers from a different school? Can a maneuver ever require stuff from outside ToB (Say, Feat Z, or Class Feature W (like Rage, or spells))?

7) If I were to, say, make a school with twice the number of maneuvers of normal, and each maneuver said something along the lines of "When you learn this maneuver, you automatically also learn <another maneuver>; If you instead chose <the same maneuver> to learn, you automatically also learn this maneuver. These two maneuvers only count as one for purposes of maneuvers known.", and made it so that one of those two was a 'starter', and the other was a 'response', so that when you use the starter, somebody else who knows it will use the response, but if no-one nearby knows it, you can't use the starter, would that work?

8) Did I make question (7) too hard to understand?

9) How do I make it so that a pre-existing class is capable of using my homebrew school?

10) If I make a homebrew ToB class, do I have to list a number of schools it must use?

11) What pattern (In addition to those used by normal classes) do ToB classes use for tables/features. In comparison to a short blurb in the class text talking about the class's spells, how would I write something for a ToB class?

12) Can a ToB PrC have it's own recovery mechanic (Say if it was the UrPreist to ToB's cleric, by which I mean required a character to not have any maneuvers at all yet)?

Thanks. In case you're wondering about some of the questions, (6) is because I want to make a school that requires you to either be a TO king to get the top level maneuvers, or be gestalted, because certain maneuvers would require an ability to cast spells to learn. Some would be simple, like "Make an Attack as a Standard action, if you hit it delivers a touch spell capable of being cast as a standard action or quicker, and deals normal damage", or some such junk (You may actually already be able to do that one NORMALLY, I'm not sure).
Number (7) is because I want a... Tag-team school. One maneuver might involve making a throw attack using a "weapon" two size categories larger than an adjacent ally (Say it was a medium creature, the "weapon" thrown would count as huge for fighting with an inappropriately sized weapon purposes) who uses the response maneuver, who deals falling damage AND the damage of an attack of their own to the target of the person who used the Starter maneuver, and winds up adjacent to that target. That's just one example, throwing an ally, but in general, I want it to be that two allies with access to that school work REALLY well together, but someone who took that school who's alone is completely useless.

Again, thank you for any help you can provide. I understand if you are shocked or appalled at what I want to try, but I still thank you for taking the time to read all this.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-11-24, 12:38 PM
This is all from the book...most of the rules can be broken or altered with homebrew.


1) Within a given school, how many maneuvers should it have per level?


Average = 4
Average = 3
Average = 3
Average = 2
Average = 3
Average = 3
Average = 2
Average = 2
One capstone


Total Average: 23. Highest school has 27, and I think the lowest is 21. So there's a bit of leeway each way at every level.


2) I've noticed that homebrew schools don't grant stances each level. Are they supposed to, or if not, what levels should a school generally grant a stance?

Levels that have Stances: 1 (always), 3 (always), 5, 6, 8 (always). 1, 3, and 8 I'd stick with, but feel free to be fluid with the others.


3) As with (2), but for Strikes/Counters/Boosts.

These are mixed liberally, but a preference towards Strikes in every school.


4) So a strike is pretty straight forward, so is a stance. But how do Counters and Boosts work? Do they require actions, when can they be used, etc.?

Counters are immediate actions in response to certain events (or just by themselves [with no triggering action] and offering a benefit that could be useful in response to something), and Boosts are Swift actions that grant benefits or specific events.


5) What do a school's associated weapon/skill do? What's the point, what benefit do they grant?

They work with feats and class features, and occasionally the skill will be used in a discipline maneuver (but not always). They are really nothing more than flavor aside from that.


6) As to prerequisites, is 'Must know X maneuvers, and maybe Y of a certain level, from The Same School' the most common form for a maneuver? Can a maneuver ever require knowledge of maneuvers from a different school? Can a maneuver ever require stuff from outside ToB (Say, Feat Z, or Class Feature W (like Rage, or spells))?

All current requirements are "X number of maneuvers from this school." No level of maneuver requirement is given. No outside schools or external things are given...those could both change with homebrew, but I'd say you'd need a very good reason to do so, and in that case I'd just make the entire school only accessible to a certain class with that ability or after a certain feat with those requirements.


7) If I were to, say, make a school with twice the number of maneuvers of normal, and each maneuver said something along the lines of "When you learn this maneuver, you automatically also learn <another maneuver>; If you instead chose <the same maneuver> to learn, you automatically also learn this maneuver. These two maneuvers only count as one for purposes of maneuvers known.", and made it so that one of those two was a 'starter', and the other was a 'response', so that when you use the starter, somebody else who knows it will use the response, but if no-one nearby knows it, you can't use the starter, would that work?

That would be rather complicated, and I don't like the idea of being unable to use the starter maneuver in that case, as there go a number of my tricks. It's an interesting idea, but feels underpowered without an ally, and possibly overpowered (and limiting in options, since you'll have two characters with the same abilities) when you have an ally. I'd recommend against it.


9) How do I make it so that a pre-existing class is capable of using my homebrew school?

Say that they are. Perhaps offer a trade of X discipline for your homebrew discipline.


10) If I make a homebrew ToB class, do I have to list a number of schools it must use?

Generally, yes. List the schools that it has access to, rather than just a number.


11) What pattern (In addition to those used by normal classes) do ToB classes use for tables/features. In comparison to a short blurb in the class text talking about the class's spells, how would I write something for a ToB class?

There are many examples on these boards. With a bit of searching you can probably find them. Alternatively, here's the Martial Compendium (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19525674/Martial_Compendium), although many of the links in it are probably dead by now, and it's outdated as far as completeness goes.


12) Can a ToB PrC have it's own recovery mechanic (Say if it was the UrPreist to ToB's cleric, by which I mean required a character to not have any maneuvers at all yet)?

Yes it could. Think it out carefully though.

DeAnno
2011-11-24, 12:51 PM
1) Within a given school, how many maneuvers should it have per level?

Two, sometimes three, maneuvers per level. Devoted Spirit is a rare case with the alignment basis and sometimes has four (one a piece). Only one per level at 9th, and generally more towards two at high levels.

2) I've noticed that homebrew schools don't grant stances each level. Are they supposed to, or if not, what levels should a school generally grant a stance?

There are no stances at 2nd, 4th, or 9th level, and no school has stances in consecutive levels. There are two stances for a couple schools at first level, and all schools have at least one first level stance.

3) As with (2), but for Strikes/Counters/Boosts.

These are generally interchangable, but all 9th level maneuvers are strikes.

4) So a strike is pretty straight forward, so is a stance. But how do Counters and Boosts work? Do they require actions, when can they be used, etc.?

Boosts are swift actions, Counters are immediate actions. One Diamond Mind stance gives a free action counter 1/round.

5) What do a school's associated weapon/skill do? What's the point, what benefit do they grant?

There isn't that much point to the weapons really, it ties into a couple borderline useless feats. The skills can be anywhere from useless to the discipline (Iron Heart) to used in more than half the maneuvers (Diamond Mind)

6) As to prerequisites, is 'Must know X maneuvers, and maybe Y of a certain level, from The Same School' the most common form for a maneuver? Can a maneuver ever require knowledge of maneuvers from a different school? Can a maneuver ever require stuff from outside ToB (Say, Feat Z, or Class Feature W (like Rage, or spells))?

The only Prerequisite a maneuver ever has is X maneuvers of the same school. Due to either mysterious thinking or poor editing, maneuver requirements are all over the board, but some disciplines tend to be stricter about them than others.

7) If I were to, say, make a school with twice the number of maneuvers of normal, and each maneuver said something along the lines of "When you learn this maneuver, you automatically also learn <another maneuver>; If you instead chose <the same maneuver> to learn, you automatically also learn this maneuver. These two maneuvers only count as one for purposes of maneuvers known.", and made it so that one of those two was a 'starter', and the other was a 'response', so that when you use the starter, somebody else who knows it will use the response, but if no-one nearby knows it, you can't use the starter, would that work?

Hmm...

8) Did I make question (7) too hard to understand?

Probably.

9) How do I make it so that a pre-existing class is capable of using my homebrew school?

Just say that they're allowed access. If you feel like it you could specify that they must trade access to some other school for it, possibly a specific one.

10) If I make a homebrew ToB class, do I have to list a number of schools it must use?

You have to list all the schools it uses, by name.

11) What pattern (In addition to those used by normal classes) do ToB classes use for tables/features. In comparison to a short blurb in the class text talking about the class's spells, how would I write something for a ToB class?

Class tables use "Maneuvers Known", "Maneuvers Readied", and "Stances Known". Usually Maneuvers Readied starts out equal to maneuvers known, and is about half maneuvers known at level 20. Usually the first two progress in linear fashion, but Stances are seemingly assigned at random levels. If you want to make people happy give them Stances at levels where they can get new higher level ones. Also, all classes get a Stance at first level, and its always a First Level stances regardless of IL.

12) Can a ToB PrC have it's own recovery mechanic (Say if it was the UrPreist to ToB's cleric, by which I mean required a character to not have any maneuvers at all yet)?

No ToB PrCs have their own recovery mechanic, but they operate in a pretty shifty way and most of them are intended for someone who is an adept already.

Siosilvar
2011-11-24, 05:36 PM
Well, let's see if I can come up with any responses Djinn and DeAnno haven't already used.

3) Go wild. I would highly recommend at least one strike per level, because sitting around waiting for other people to do things isn't much fun, and it's neat to have special attacks instead of boosts for your others.

7) Making a character useless without an ally is exceedingly poor design. If you're set on this, let anybody take the response action and don't require a maneuver for it. Even the White Raven maneuvers don't require an ally.

9) Say they can. Usually homebrewers allow a feat to choose maneuvers or allow the class to trade a discipline for theirs, because having so many new options is very powerful.

10) Generally, you'd list a couple of schools they get. Some homebrew classes have "choose three of the five or six schools listed" or "choose any one or two schools".

12) ToB PrCs could have their own recovery mechanic, but they're all designed for those with maneuvers already. I'm not sure it fits fluff to require not having maneuvers yet, because they're pretty generic techniques that anyone could learn (though not necessarily call by name, that falls under skill points in Martial Lore). For example, one of the first-level Diamond Mind strikes lets you focus with a Concentration check and deal additional damage. Anybody could do that, but it's still a maneuver.

flabort
2011-11-24, 05:42 PM
'kay, that was actually real helpful. Thanks.

So the partnership series of maneuvers is basically a bad idea, you say. OK.

Now, generally, what power level, compared to say spells of the same level, would a maneuver be? generally weaker, or generally stronger?

DeAnno
2011-11-24, 05:54 PM
Generally weaker, though boosts and counters tend to be about as strong as similar leveled swift/immediate spells. Remember, maneuvers are (many) per encounter, and stances are continuous whereas spells are per day (though you do get ~4x more of spells).

As an example of strikes with bonus damage (usually accompanied by minor effects), you see ~2d6 at level 2, ~6d6 at level 5, ~12d6 at 7, and 100 at level 9.

Stances are generally weaker than similar-leveled buffs, but some have exotic effects which defy this (Aura of Perfect Order and its take 11 1/round @6 stands out).

EDIT: remembered devoted spirit stuff sometimes has an align requirement

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-11-24, 05:57 PM
'kay, that was actually real helpful. Thanks.

So the partnership series of maneuvers is basically a bad idea, you say. OK.

Now, generally, what power level, compared to say spells of the same level, would a maneuver be? generally weaker, or generally stronger?

Weaker, but used a lot more often over the course of a day...Warblades and the like can Nova every other couple of rounds, all day long.

Prime32
2011-11-24, 07:03 PM
But I don't actually have access to ToB beyond the Warblade (which is online), and homebrew. :smallfrown: So I can't dissect the official stuff to create my own ToB homebrew.Incorrect. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a)

jiriku
2011-11-25, 01:16 AM
I have seen many people state that 9th level maneuvers are about equal to 6th level spells. To me, that feels about right, although I've seen some unimpressive 7th level spells that I'd put in that same class as well.

bobthe6th
2011-11-25, 02:15 AM
there are 6th levels that deal 100 damage?

DeAnno
2011-11-25, 02:22 AM
there are 6th levels that deal 100 damage?

Empowered Orb of Fire is 6th level, and at CL 15 deals an average of 78.75 damage, with no optimization at all. It's sort of similar in that it requires an attack roll and doesn't allow SR or saves.

Siosilvar
2011-11-25, 11:13 AM
there are 6th levels that deal 100 damage?

Disintegrate does 28d6 damage at 14th level. It's single-target untyped. The 100-damage maneuver is AoE fire. That balances out quite nicely.

flabort
2011-11-25, 04:11 PM
Hmm....
How often do maneuvers grant extra actions, or allow use of an action in a smaller time frame than normal?
Say, if there was a maneuver that allowed an attack during a move action, or one that allowed a full attack in a standard. Or one that was a charge, using move + attack actions, but allowed another move action afterwards?

Roughly, what actions granted, or used in a smaller action, are usually granted at what levels?

DeAnno
2011-11-25, 04:20 PM
Miscellaneous:
Swift Leap (Tiger Claw 1) allows you to move your jump check as a swift action. Quicksilver Motion (Diamond Mind 7) gives you a move action as a swift action. Moment of Alacrity (DM 6) gives your current initiative +20 as a swift (sometimes allowing two turns in a row, from moving from the bottom of the order to the top). White Raven Tactics (White Raven 3) moves an ally's initiative to right after yours as a swift action.

Attacks:
Pouncing Charge (Tiger Claw 5) lets you Pounce as a full-round action. Dancing Mongoose (TC 5) gives you an extra attack with up to two weapons during your full attack as a swift, and Raging Mongoose (TC 7) gives you two extra attacks with up to two weapons during your full attack as a swift. Time Stands Still (Diamond Mind 9) lets you make two full attacks as a full-round action.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-11-25, 04:25 PM
How often do maneuvers grant extra actions, or allow use of an action in a smaller time frame than normal?

Maneuvers that grant action equivalents (a few more allow you to make other attacks, and/or move a small distance as part of the maneuver):

Level 1: Sudden Leap -- Grants a Jump check (and allows you to move the resulting distance) as a Swift action.
Level 3: White Raven Tactics -- Change an Ally's initiative count, granting him his turn sooner (Swift action).
Level 4: Bounding Attack -- Move up to twice your speed (not just in a straight line) and attack (full round action).
Level 5: Mirrored Pursuit -- Follow your foes when he moves (Immediate action).
Level 7: Shadow Blink -- Teleport up to 50ft as a Swift action.
Level 7: Quicksilver Motion -- Gain an extra Move action (Swift action).
Level 7: Clarion Call -- When you kill a single foe, allies within range can make a free attack or take a free move action (Swift action).
Level 8: Stance of Alacrity -- Gain a free counter each round (equates to a free Immediate Action that must be used to initiate a counter maneuver).
Level 9: Time Stands Still -- Make 2 full-attack actions as a single full-round action.

So not very many, and many of those that do grant extra "actions" are very specific. Breaking the action economy doesn't come cheap.

Agent_0042
2011-11-25, 06:48 PM
There are many examples on these boards. With a bit of searching you can probably find them. Alternatively, here's the Martial Compendium (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19525674/Martial_Compendium), although many of the links in it are probably dead by now, and it's outdated as far as completeness goes.


I just wanted to add that I have all the recoverable material from the Martial Compendium reposted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165675).

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-11-25, 07:04 PM
I just wanted to add that I have all the recoverable material from the Martial Compendium reposted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165675).

...that's *really* useful. Thanks! :smallbiggrin: