Ray of Enfeeblement, Effects of Overencumbered

[Menteith]

Ray of Enfeeblement reads;

A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1.

This is not ability damage or ability drain, it's an unnamed penalty. Unnamed bonuses/penalties should stack with all other kinds of bonuses/penalties. However, in the PHB, on page 172, under "Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths...

In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same example, only the best one applies. For example, if a character takes a -4 penalty to Strength from a ray of enfeeblement spell, and then receives a second ray of enfeeblement spell that applies a -6 penalty, he or she takes only the -6 penalty.

Ray of Enfeeblement applies an unnamed ability modifier. Unnamed ability modifiers stack with all other modifiers (PHB, pg 172, "A bonus that isn't named...stacks with any bonus"). Multiple Ray of Enfeeblement spells do not stack with each other according to RAW. Why is this the case, and what other ability modifiers will/will not stack with the effect provided by Ray of Enfeeblement?

Side Question - I can't find the actual rules for having more weight than the maximum weight limit. What happens if Strength is decreased to 1 while wearing Full Plate? Are you immobilized, helpless, pinned? Can you cast Spells?

[gomipile]

Well, if carrying more than one's maximum heavy load, but less than double that, one "loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action)." (source:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm)

Above that, one wouldn't even be able to move 5 feet as a full round action, I would suppose.

[Menteith]

Above that, one wouldn't even be able to move 5 feet as a full round action, I would suppose.

Would that restrict spell casting, though? It's entirely possible to hit a caster down to 1 Str off an Empowered (9-16 Str damage)/Maximized (11 Str damage) Ray of Enfeeblement, and odds are they're carrying greater than 20lbs. The way that they're incapacitated makes a difference.

[Godskook]

This is not ability damage or ability drain, it's an unnamed penalty. Unnamed bonuses/penalties should stack with all other kinds of bonuses/penalties. However, in the PHB, on page 172, under "Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths...

unnamed penalties from different sources should stack. Two penalties from Ray of Enfeeblement are both from the same source, and thus, shouldn't stack.


Side Question - I can't find the actual rules for having more weight than the maximum weight limit. What happens if Strength is decreased to 1 while wearing Full Plate? Are you immobilized, helpless, pinned? Can you cast Spells?

I don't think the rules proplerly address these situations, however, I would assume you're pinned if you become over-loaded more than what you can drag.

[Jeraa]

By the rules, casting is unaffected. It doesn't matter how far your strength is reduced, you can still cast. Unless your strength is dropped to 0, in which case you can't move at all. Encumbrance has no effect on casting.

[Menteith]

By the rules, casting is unaffected. It doesn't matter how far your strength is reduced, you can still cast. Unless your strength is dropped to 0, in which case you can't move at all. Encumbrance has no effect on casting.

If you were unable to move (Pinned, or another modifier) spells with a Somatic descriptor are prevented, as is retrieving spell components, which shut down a decent amount of spells. There doesn't seem to be a source that gives us a clear RAW for individuals who have more than double their maximum weight limit - what would be the most reasonable way to rule this situation? (If there is a definitive source on the matter, please let me know)

Thanks for all the feedback so far everyone!

[Lord Vukodlak]

If you were unable to move (Pinned, or another modifier) spells with a Somatic descriptor are prevented, as is retrieving spell components, which shut down a decent amount of spells. There doesn't seem to be a source that gives us a clear RAW for individuals who have more than double their maximum weight limit - what would be the most reasonable way to rule this situation? (If there is a definitive source on the matter, please let me know)

Thanks for all the feedback so far everyone!

Imagine wearing a backpack that was suddenly to heavy for you to lift you'd fall on your ass the same would be true of the caster. He wouldn't be helpless but would likely be denied his dexterity bonus to AC to the difficulty.
I don't see somatic components being a problem in most cases as the weight isn't pinning there arms

[Menteith]

Imagine wearing a backpack that was suddenly to heavy for you to lift you'd fall on your ass the same would be true of the caster. He wouldn't be helpless but would likely be denied his dexterity bonus to AC to the difficulty.
I don't see somatic components being a problem in most cases as the weight isn't pinning there arms

How about a Cleric in Full Plate or other armored caster?

[Lord Vukodlak]

How about a Cleric in Full Plate or other armored caster?

I'd imagine they'd still have the strength to lift his arms, in this case I see the turtle on its back, he can kinda rock back and forth but thats about it...

[deuxhero]

Just make sure the cleric isn't slightly on his side.

[Menteith]

I'd imagine they'd still have the strength to lift his arms, in this case I see the turtle on its back, he can kinda rock back and forth but thats about it...

That seems about right. Alright everyone, thanks for the clarification. Questions answered.

[Curmudgeon]

I'd imagine they'd still have the strength to lift his arms, in this case I see the turtle on its back, he can kinda rock back and forth but thats about it...
Lift arms, maybe. But spellcasting requires a bit more than that.
A character can lift as much as double his or her maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action). Staggering around doesn't seem conducive to spellcasting with somatic components:
Somatic (S)

A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand.
To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). When the weight of gear dragging your shoulders down only lets you stagger, that doesn't seem like it would allow much manipulation of components or focuses, either.

I recommend you to talk over this scenario with your individual DM beforehand.

[jiriku]

Why is this the case, and what other ability modifiers will/will not stack with the effect provided by Ray of Enfeeblement?

The easy ones are fatigue (-2) and exhaustion (-6).

[Mnemnosyne]

Armor doesn't interfere with divine spellcasting though, so from that we can surmise that divine somatic components are pretty simple; along the lines of 'hold out holy symbol and thrust hand forward' rather than 'intricately twiddle your fingers in this precise pattern while raising your arm a precise distance from your body with your elbow bent at exactly a 72 degree angle.'

There's also the issue that the armor itself isn't that heavy. At least not any armor an arcane caster is going to be wearing. Even full plate, if made of Mithril (which would be the minimum any arcane caster would need in order to wear that) only weighs 25 pounds, which is only 5 pounds over the limit. Backpack and other gear might weigh more, but if we're arguing what effect the armor itself has on restricting your spellcasting, only the armor's weight should be considered.

Given these considerations, if I were DM when such a question came up, I would rule that only arcane casters have to worry about it, and only if the armor itself, not their total load, weighs more than 2x their max load. So assuming strength was reduced to 1, the armor itself would have to weigh more than 20 pounds in order to incur penalties. At that point, I would say that each pound over 20 incurs 5% Arcane Spell Failure chance even if they otherwise would not suffer ASF from that armor. Therefore a bard or warlock, for instance, in mithril full plate, with the battle caster feat, would have 25% ASF if their strength dropped to 1. A wizard, on the other hand, would be highly unlikely to be wearing any armor heavy enough for this ever to come into play, but if they were, the same concept would follow.

[Reaver225]

The easy ones are fatigue (-2) and exhaustion (-6).

Ray of exhaustion is a decent way to hit this, level 3 spell is not out of reach.

I personally think Shadow Spray from Spell Compendium is a good contender to cause strength damage, especially to casters: 5 ft burst for 4 points of strength damage (over 1 round/level? I'm not sure exactly) and daze for one round. Sor/Wiz 2 spell, too, and can hit more than one person.

Ability damage means the damage doesn't go away, and it stacks with ability penalty nicely.

Another fun thing is Escalating Enfeeblement from Complete Mage, which for a Sor/Wiz 2 spell does exactly the same thing as Ray of Enfeeblement, except it does 1d10+1/two levels instead if the person is suffering from ability penalties/damage already (doesn't stack with Ray of Enfeeblement, though)

[Gwendol]

I've wondered how to apply sneak attack damage to RoE?

[Reaver225]

Technically it doesn't for Ray of Enfeeblement, because it's an ability penalty and not damage, but it's fairly easily houseruled to do negative energy damage equal to your sneak attack roll.

Whenever you deal negative levels or ability damage it's assumed to be negative energy damage. For anything else, it's the same energy type as your spell.

[Menteith]

I recommend you to talk over this scenario with your individual DM beforehand.

I'm the DM in this situation. It hasn't come up yet, but I anticipate that it will, and would like to be able to give a definitive ruling about it before it does. I think I'm going to use a system similar to Mnemnosyne's solution, applied to both Divine and Arcane spellcasters. It's just a matter of balancing numbers correctly now.

[ericgrau]

Would that restrict spell casting, though? It's entirely possible to hit a caster down to 1 Str off an Empowered (9-16 Str damage)/Maximized (11 Str damage) Ray of Enfeeblement, and odds are they're carrying greater than 20lbs. The way that they're incapacitated makes a difference.

He can't manage his backpack weight but he can still move his arm freely, so it would not impede spell-casting. If it's more than his heavy load and less than his maximum load, he can still stand and finger wiggle. Beyond that he may stagger and fall over, but he can still cast while lying on the ground. If some of the weight is on his arm that's a different story, but that's rare.



I've wondered how to apply sneak attack damage to RoE?
Ability damage/drain/penalty sneak attacks with negative energy hit point damage.