How would the Sapphire Guard have fared if...*spoilers?*

[FlyingCandles]

I can never remember what these forums regard as spoilers, so please excuse me if that label (and the next one) are unnecessary.

If things had played out differently in Azure City (say, Miko and Hinjo hadn't heard Shojo's discussion with Roy) so that Miko hadn't gone over the edge and killed Shojo, Shojo had remained in power without ruining Hinjo and Miko's trust in him, and Miko was still stable enough to fight alongside the rest of the Sapphire Guard and the Order (as I'm sure Shojo could convince her to with Xykon knocking on the city's door), how do you think things would have played out against Xykon's army?

Things to consider: 1. The morale of the Sapphire Guard would be much higher with Shojo still in power and no talk of treachery within their ranks.

2. Even being just one fighter, Miko's presence would surely mean the death of several goblins and zombies. Not to mention that if she was fighting on the front lines the whole time, there probably wouldn't be anyone to interfere when the Sapphire Ghosts kicked Xykon's tail, and the Gate may have stayed in tact (for better or for worse).

3. With less desperation before the battle (and with more wisdom regarding the risks), Shojo may not have released the prisoners, meaning Shizuki (is that her name?) couldn't help Xykon (though she might end up joining The Linear Guild),and the rogue guy couldn't have any influence with Belkar, though how that would change anything is snyone's guess.



Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?

[Ron Miel]

I don't think there's any need for spoilers. It's part of the online comic, and not the prequel books.

If Miko hadn't fallen, we can say for certain she'd be in the throne room when Xykon attacked. She might have died with all the others. Or perhaps she'd avoid the madness and would have completed O'chul's destruction of the gate anyway.

[NerfTW]

As for spoilers, only prequel books. Anything else is based on an old, defunct rule in the FAQ about Rich not liking speculation that hasn't been relevant in years and years. (He's said so himself recently. The FAQ just hasn't been updated.)

As for the battle, Miko would have been a non issue. Like O'chul said, even a high level character who can only be hit on criticals will die when a volley of arrows from an army comes at them.

The real turning point in the battle would have been Shojo. His death resulted in many of the nobles taking their soldiers and fleeing. This was caused by Hinjo's lack of experience with politics combined with his desire to keep the gate a secret. (As we see in the strip where Kuboto leaves) He felt "Because it's right" was enough for the nobles. Shojo would have given them a reason to stay and fight, probably turning the battle in their favor.

Xykon's tactics were actually pretty terrible if the city had been properly defended. Everyone marched from one direction, and then charged one point in the wall. Had the city been fully manned, there would have been a second line of defense already massing when the charge began. It would have failed.

Not to mention, at the end, Xykon and Redcloak were only saved by Miko's foolishly destroying the gate, distracting Soon. Had she been there in the first place, she would have seen the entire fight and realized Soon was in fact about to win, preventing any need for destroying the gate.

And on top of that, Redcloak would have never made it all the way inside to tell Xykon how to beat the Ghost Paladins, AND start dispelling them. Xykon would have been beaten in short order, long before any goblins had made it into the tower.

[Red XIV]

If Miko hadn't fallen, we can say for certain she'd be in the throne room when Xykon attacked. She might have died with all the others. Or perhaps she'd avoid the madness and would have completed O'chul's destruction of the gate anyway.
As the highest-level character Azure City had, she would've surely been on the front lines, far away from the throne room. Thus, the gate wouldn't have been destroyed, and Soon's spirit would've killed Redcloak and destroyed Xykon's body. That's assuming the rest of the battle worked out the same way, of course.

[John Cribati]

As the highest-level character Azure City had, she would've surely been on the front lines, far away from the throne room.

No. As a Paladin of the Sapphire Guard, she would surely have been in the throne room with the others.

[rbetieh]

No. As a Paladin of the Sapphire Guard, she would surely have been in the throne room with the others.

The highest level paladin was in charge of marshalling the city defenses. Hinjo would have been in the throne room and Miko would have been bossing everyone around. She might possibly have cut down Elan and Haley for passing notes during the battle (did they ever get that note back?)

[Whiffet]

As the highest-level character Azure City had, she would've surely been on the front lines, far away from the throne room. Thus, the gate wouldn't have been destroyed, and Soon's spirit would've killed Redcloak and destroyed Xykon's body. That's assuming the rest of the battle worked out the same way, of course.

But she was a paladin. All Azure City paladins except Hinjo, Lien, "newbies", and those who were away ended up in the throne room. Why would being high level make things different for Miko? The fact that new paladins weren't in the throne room implies higher-leveled paladins are preferred, really.

EDIT:

The highest level paladin was in charge of marshalling the city defenses. Hinjo would have been in the throne room and Miko would have been bossing everyone around. She might possibly have cut down Elan and Haley for passing notes during the battle (did they ever get that note back?)

:smallconfused: Hinjo inherited that responsibility from Shojo. It has nothing to do with level. Or did I completely miss something?

[Emanick]

But she was a paladin. All Azure City paladins except Hinjo, Lien, "newbies", and those who were away ended up in the throne room. Why would being high level make things different for Miko? The fact that new paladins weren't in the throne room implies higher-leveled paladins are preferred, really.

EDIT:


:smallconfused: Hinjo inherited that responsibility from Shojo. It has nothing to do with level. Or did I completely miss something?

I actually don't think it was explicitly stated why Hinjo was in charge, besides, you know, the fact that he was the Lord of Azure City and young enough to lead the charge. I don't think there's enough information available for us to know who would have been out there on the walls if Shojo was still alive.

I'd bet on Hinjo, personally. True, he isn't as powerful as Miko, but he's a much better leader - and keeps a much cooler head - than Miko ever did; Rich calls him a "passable commander" in the WaX commentaries. Unless our favorite recipient of Treasure Type O had a hidden talent for battle administration, a talent we were never informed of, she would probably have been stationed with the rest of the paladins in the Throne Room.

[factotum]

It's a tricky one, really. Given Miko's level she would naturally have been expected to be in charge wherever she happened to be, but Shojo presumably knew she didn't play well with other people, which is why he kept sending her on solo missions! I think he would therefore have put her in the throne room, on the grounds that was the absolute last line of defence; if it was required the situation was already so appallingly bad that Miko couldn't really mess it up any further, and as a Ghost-Paladin she would come under Soon's direct command.

The situation out on the walls would have been substantially the same, with Hinjo commanding on the ground--I don't think Shojo ever claimed to be a great field commander. The big difference would have been the addition of the noble's troops, which would have given a big enough boost that maybe Shojo wouldn't have felt the need to let the prisoners out--that decision was overall a problem, given that it delivered Tsukiko into Xykon's hands.

[Unisus]

Xykon's tactics were actually pretty terrible if the city had been properly defended. Everyone marched from one direction, and then charged one point in the wall. Had the city been fully manned, there would have been a second line of defense already massing when the charge began. It would have failed.

Actually that were not Xykon's tactics but Redcloak's, and the intention was not to conquer the city by force, but only to distract the defense, so Xykon could easily slip behind the lines (you know, something like Gondor attacking Mordor at it's gate without the slightest chance of victory, just to keep Sauron from finding Frodo).

The weak spot was actually the sanctum in the throne room, without that the plan would have worked perfectly.

[Lvl45DM!]

I am Shojo. I am very smart, aware of all of Miko's flaws and most importantly in charge. Do I A) give Miko control of lots of non-paladin troops including a bunch of chaotic northerners or B) give her command of a bunch of paladins in the one circumstance where every paladin would listen to her?
Miko would be in the throne room if Shojo was alive
Not only does Miko inflict considerably more damage to Xykon before dying, but she doesn't stop Soon from killing Xykon and Redcloak. Hell she could've killed Redcloak herself either alive or in ghost-martyr form.

I put Hinjo in charge of the battle but order him to defer to Roy's leadership, which he figured out on his own. So mostly the non throne room battle goes the same. Sure the good guys pull through a little better with extra troops and higher morale but Redcloaks charge on that wall was getting through. Roy still dies but is raised the next day.

[Ron Miel]

I am Shojo. I am very smart, aware of all of Miko's flaws and most importantly in charge. Do I A) give Miko control of lots of non-paladin troops including a bunch of chaotic northerners or B) give her command of a bunch of paladins in the one circumstance where every paladin would listen to her?
Miko would be in the throne room if Shojo was alive

Miko was a tough fighter, but she wasn't exactly leadership material even before she snapped. She'd have been in the throne room, but O'Chul would have been the leader.

[BaronOfHell]

I think there's a whole lot of small stuff that could have differed, which would have changed the whole plot, because it's always assumed that
1) only Miko would destroy the gate.
2) Xykon and co. would always lose to Soon.

So if Miko, e.g. had never been a paladin at all, that could also mean Xykon would have been defeated, etc.

[The Pilgrim]

First of all, the Sapphire Guard was not an official part of the administration of the City. Most of the azurites didn't even know about it's existence. Miko being the highest-level paladin means nothing, command goes still to the Lord of the City.

If Shojo had been alive, his choice to lead the troops would have been Hinjo (the City Lord's Heir, and a capable commander) over Miko (officially a nobody, with no skills for leadership at all), undoubtely. Miko would have been assigned to the Throne Room with the rest of the Paladins. Then either the Sapphire Guard would have defeated Xykon before the Ghost-Spirits had to move, or Miko would have been able to finish what O-Chul attemped - the destruction of the Gate, also before Soon had entered the scene.

The real important fact about the Battle of Azure City if Shojo hadn't been slayed, isn't Miko. It's the reaction of the city's nobility. With Shojo alive, I don't know if Kubota and the rest of the nobles would have been able to weasel off out of the battle with their household troops.

Their presence on the battlefield would undoubtely have made a difference and, either the hobbos would have been kept beyond the city walls, giving the victory to the Azurites, or Kubota would have defected to the hobgoblins' side in the middle of the battle, making it easier for Redcloack to win the battle.

[Jay R]

Miko would have been picked for a long mission. In a foreign country. Which would have kept her away from home for months (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html).

[AutomatedTeller]

Given that Xykon and Redcloak were completely defeated when Miko destroyed the gate, I would speculate that Azure City would have been fine, Roy would still be dead, Eugene would be able to get into Heaven, Belkar would be in jail, Haley and Elan would be off to free her father (perhaps with Durkon and V)

[Ron Miel]

The real important fact about the Battle of Azure City if Shojo hadn't been slayed, isn't Miko. It's the reaction of the city's nobility. With Shojo alive, I don't know if Kubota and the rest of the nobles would have been able to weasel off out of the battle with their household troops.

The nobles are doo-doo heads (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html). Especially Kubota. He's a coward who would have run away from the fight no matter what.

[dps]

My thoughts:

Miko being in the throne room probably wouldn't have enabled the paladins there to defeat Xykon--they would have still been slaughtered--but had she been with them, she wouldn't have blown the gate, and Soon would have defeated Xykon and Redcloak.

However, at that point, the walls were already breached, and the defenders were badly outnumbered. The city would have still fallen to the hobgoblins, I think. What they'd do with it without Redcloak's leadership I don't know.

OTOH, with Shojo alive, the nobles and their troops may well have not abandoned the city. (Even though Kubota was a coward, under different circumstances he might have hidden or secretly fled but left his troops to fight.) That might have been enough to change the course of the battle, but we don't know how many troops the nobles controlled or what their levels were. Their presence might have been signicifant--just Kubota's ninjas under Therkla's command could have had a considerable impact.

[Pyron]

However, at that point, the walls were already breached, and the defenders were badly outnumbered. The city would have still fallen to the hobgoblins, I think. What they'd do with it without Redcloak's leadership I don't know.

OTOH, with Shojo alive, the nobles and their troops may well have not abandoned the city. (Even though Kubota was a coward, under different circumstances he might have hidden or secretly fled but left his troops to fight.) That might have been enough to change the course of the battle, but we don't know how many troops the nobles controlled or what their levels were. Their presence might have been signicifant--just Kubota's ninjas under Therkla's command could have had a considerable impact.

According to General Chang's estimates (this is prior to the nobility high-tailing it with their soldiers), the two armies would had been an even fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html).

This is significant because it would had slowed Redcloak down as he reached the throne room, if not stopping him outright. Without Recloak, Xykon would had been using fire and lightning on the Ghost Martyrs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html).

However, with Miko's presence in the throne (assuming that's her station), I see two possible outcome: she dies with all the other paladins in the throne room or destroys the gate. There's also a good possibility that Xykon would had fallen either way, but if Redcloak didn't make it to the throne room then he would regenerate a week or so later.

[Metahuman1]

Miko was a tough fighter, but she wasn't exactly leadership material even before she snapped. She'd have been in the throne room, but O'Chul would have been the leader.

Heck, if I'd been Shojo, I'd have even given her something along the lines of this for the logic to justify ordering her to take orders form O'chul.


"Miko, you are individually the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire guard. But you've always, through out your entire career, and I should know as I've seen the whole thing, been best at operating on your own. This is not a bad thing, it is the way of the world that some people simply function better outside of groups, the whole mentality of he-travels-fastest-who-travels-alone. But in this instance, personal power is not going to be enough, for formidable as you are, you cannot defeat the Lich on your own. No one in the city can. And O'Chul as demonstrated himself on a number of occasions to be capable of functioning very well both as a group leader and as a personal combatant. Thus, I entrust him with command of defending the gate, and I assign you to defend the gate under his command. "

And yes, Miko might have been able to still be standing when Redcloak got in the room and kill him before he could do anything. Or at least have cost Xykon enough HP that he had already lost his body and had his Phylactery destroyed by the time Redclock got to the room.

[Da'Shain]

Didn't Miko's slaying of Shojo lead directly to Xykon finding out precisely where the gate is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html)?

In other words, if Miko had not snapped and killed her lord, Xykon and Redcloak would not have known where the gate was. Thus Xykon would be far less "this army of low level mooks is boring, I'm skipping straight to the final dungeon" and more "I'm going to destroy this entire army until someone tells me where the gate is, and then I'll destroy the rest anyway." If Xykon does not have the information to make a beeline for his goal, he's going to actually be a battlefield presence as opposed to killing Roy and Sangwaan and then doing nothing else. Likewise, it's more likely that he'd actually either take Redcloak with him when he does find the gate, or have blasted a path through the enemy forces that Redcloak can follow very quickly.

Xykon actually being part of the battle would, IMO, render it pretty much unwinnable for Azure City, even with the extra troops if the nobles stay. The Sapphire Guard would almost certainly still be, well, guarding the sapphire, and thus the net gain to both armies would be a few thousand low level troops on one side, and an epic level sorcerous lich on the other. I know which army I'd bet on.

[Warren Dew]

The real turning point in the battle would have been Shojo. His death resulted in many of the nobles taking their soldiers and fleeing. This was caused by Hinjo's lack of experience with politics combined with his desire to keep the gate a secret. (As we see in the strip where Kuboto leaves) He felt "Because it's right" was enough for the nobles. Shojo would have given them a reason to stay and fight, probably turning the battle in their favor.
Agreed. In addition, some of the nobles were probably much better military commanders than Hinjo. Likely the battle defenses would have held.

However:


Not to mention, at the end, Xykon and Redcloak were only saved by Miko's foolishly destroying the gate, distracting Soon. Had she been there in the first place, she would have seen the entire fight and realized Soon was in fact about to win, preventing any need for destroying the gate.
To the contrary, she might well have slowed Xykon down enough that O'Chul's attempt to destroy the gate was successful, before Soon even showed up.

For some reason, everyone seems to forget that Miko was not the first person to try to destroy the Sapphire Gate, only the first one to succeed.

[factotum]

Miko would have been picked for a long mission. In a foreign country. Which would have kept her away from home for months (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html).

No, she wouldn't. She arrived literally a day or two before Xykon's forces did, so not only would there not have been time to send her out on another mission, but it would be ridiculous to try--no matter how personally unlikable she is, you do *not* throw away one of your highest level assets just before a major battle!

[Joerg]

There have been quite a few good points here already. I would see two likely paths:

1) Xykon doesn't learn the location of the Gate. Then I agree with Da'Shain: Team Evil wins the battle easily, no matter what the nobles do and what the morale of Azure City is. Afterwards, they will eventually win the Gate (Redcloak will be able to help Xykon earlier; but even if Soon wins once, Xykon will be able to regenerate because there are no humans there to destroy the phylactery).

2) Xykon learns the location anyway, because e.g. Shojo talks with Miko about it. Because of the additional troops and better morale, Redcloak will arrive in the throne room too late; he may even be unable to take the city in the first attack. Xykon will be killed either by Soon and the ghosts or even earlier if Miko manages to destroy the Gate. Then he will regenerate outside the city. Then, he will continue by obliterating the Azure City army; and Redcloak will have a plan for the ghosts. (If the Gate has been destroyed, Redcloak will still want to win the war and occupy the city and will talk Xykon into it the same way he talked him into staying there).

So, in either case, the outcome isn't better for the city.

[Dr.Epic]

2. Even being just one fighter, Miko's presence would surely mean the death of several goblins and zombies. Not to mention that if she was fighting on the front lines the whole time, there probably wouldn't be anyone to interfere when the Sapphire Ghosts kicked Xykon's tail, and the Gate may have stayed in tact (for better or for worse).

Several goblins and zombies? Team Evil won with SEVERAL THOUSAND troops still alive. Aside from Miko not destroying the Gate and Xykon getting killed right there, I don't see how her fighting in the front lines would have made a difference.


3. With less desperation before the battle (and with more wisdom regarding the risks), Shojo may not have released the prisoners, meaning Shizuki (is that her name?) couldn't help Xykon (though she might end up joining The Linear Guild),and the rogue guy couldn't have any influence with Belkar, though how that would change anything is snyone's guess.

Hard to say. The nobles had troops that didn't help, but the prisoners were of a decent level, so maybe he still would have used prisoners.

I'd say, Xykon and Red Cloak may have met their ends there, but the hobgoblins would have still taken the city.

[Mutant Sheep]

1) Xykon doesn't learn the location of the Gate. Then I agree with Da'Shain: Team Evil wins the battle easily, no matter what the nobles do and what the morale of Azure City is. Afterwards, they will eventually win the Gate (Redcloak will be able to help Xykon earlier; but even if Soon wins once, Xykon will be able to regenerate because there are no humans there to destroy the phylactery).

But Xykon would be regenerating in the throne room.:smallconfused: Where Soon then breaks his reforming body again. And again. And again.

[FujinAkari]

But Xykon would be regenerating in the throne room.:smallconfused: Where Soon then breaks his reforming body again. And again. And again.

Until Soon is destroyed by aforementioned thousands and thousands of troops. Not to mention that it is very unclear how long Soon -could- remain in the throneroom. Would he be able to persist indefinately? Because Xykon -can- keep coming back for as long as it takes...

[dps]

But Xykon would be regenerating in the throne room.:smallconfused: Where Soon then breaks his reforming body again. And again. And again.

Only if Redcloak was also killed in the throne room. Otherwise, he'd be regenerating where-ever Redcloak is (whether or not Redcloak is dead).

[Joerg]

But Xykon would be regenerating in the throne room.:smallconfused: Where Soon then breaks his reforming body again. And again. And again.

I think this was discussed at the time already. The hobgoblins could remove the phylactery from the throne room even if Soon kills both Xykon and Redcloak there.

[factotum]

I think this was discussed at the time already. The hobgoblins could remove the phylactery from the throne room even if Soon kills both Xykon and Redcloak there.

Because Soon would just stand idly by and cheer them while they do this, apparently? I mean, seriously, the guy fought Redcloak and Xykon, probably the two most powerful corporeal characters in the entire strip, and won easily--you think a few hobgoblins will be a problem for him?

[FujinAkari]

Because Soon would just stand idly by and cheer them while they do this, apparently? I mean, seriously, the guy fought Redcloak and Xykon, probably the two most powerful corporeal characters in the entire strip, and won easily--you think a few hobgoblins will be a problem for him?

Soon still only gets one AoO per round and, likely, cannot leave the Throne Room. His appearance strongly implies he is only able to act when the Sapphire Gate is directly threatened, so it is questionable if he would even still persist once Xykon was defeated and the threat was (temporarily) ended. Being able to pursue the hobgoblins away from the throneroom seems a stretch.

[SoC175]

Because Soon would just stand idly by and cheer them while they do this, apparently? I mean, seriously, the guy fought Redcloak and Xykon, probably the two most powerful corporeal characters in the entire strip, and won easily--you think a few hobgoblins will be a problem for him?
Depends on how suicidally loyal they are. It also doesn't need that many being loyal enough, have ten or twenty rush in an pick it up to throw it toward the exit is more than Soon can slay each round before they manage to get it out of the throne room

[rbetieh]

I am Shojo. I am very smart, aware of all of Miko's flaws and most importantly in charge. Do I A) give Miko control of lots of non-paladin troops including a bunch of chaotic northerners or B) give her command of a bunch of paladins in the one circumstance where every paladin would listen to her?
Miko would be in the throne room if Shojo was alive
Not only does Miko inflict considerably more damage to Xykon before dying, but she doesn't stop Soon from killing Xykon and Redcloak. Hell she could've killed Redcloak herself either alive or in ghost-martyr form.

I put Hinjo in charge of the battle but order him to defer to Roy's leadership, which he figured out on his own. So mostly the non throne room battle goes the same. Sure the good guys pull through a little better with extra troops and higher morale but Redcloaks charge on that wall was getting through. Roy still dies but is raised the next day.

You guys are allowing your good sense to overshadow proper procedure. Shojo is alive, still pretending to be a Senile Paladin, which means he still has to act like a paladin. He sent Miko on the faraway missions on the excuse that they are the most dangerous and thus the Best paladin must go. Same thing really, he's tied down by Paladin rules. How many times can he use Mr. Scruffy before the nobles catch on? Its a sad state, but thats Azure city politics for you.

[hamishspence]

He's never claimed to be a paladin (not even to the Sapphire Guard)- he's an Aristocrat.

[Kish]

The Sapphire Guard believed Shojo followed the paladin code.

No one, least of all the nobles who didn't know the Sapphire Guard even existed, thought he was actually a paladin. Paladins are immune to all diseases, and senility is a name for a group of mental diseases; anyone who ever formulated the concept "senile paladin" should have immediately realized that Shojo could be a maximum of one of those words. Nor would any part of his facade prevent him from positioning Miko as he saw fit on the front lines, in the throne room, or in another country, unless the Sapphire Guard had a specific rule stating that all paladins who weren't the Lord of the city had to be in the throne room.

[rbetieh]

The Sapphire Guard believed Shojo followed the paladin code.

No one, least of all the nobles who didn't know the Sapphire Guard even existed, thought he was actually a paladin. Paladins are immune to all diseases, and senility is a name for a group of mental diseases; anyone who ever formulated the concept "senile paladin" should have immediately realized that Shojo could be a maximum of one of those words. Nor would any part of his facade prevent him from positioning Miko as he saw fit on the front lines, in the throne room, or in another country, unless the Sapphire Guard had a specific rule stating that all paladins who weren't the Lord of the city had to be in the throne room.

Senility is not a Disease, its a condition. You can have a 1-armed paladin right? Or can I just re-grow limbs by taking 4 levels of Paladin?

[Kish]

You can have a 1-armed paladin right?
Not only that, by redefining diseases as "conditions," you can have a paladin who has flu, cancer, and syphilis if you want!

[rbetieh]

Not only that, by redefining diseases as "conditions," you can have a paladin who has flu, cancer, and syphilis if you want!

There is a difference between something caused by the introduction of an outside organism (pathological, is I think the right word) and something that is genetic or happenstance (Cystic Fibrosis, blindness due to exposure to blinding light, Phenalkatenuria, some - but not all - cancers, etc.) I think someone born with Cystic Fibrosis doesnt just get cured because they choose to be paladins. The same is true with Senility.

[Kish]

If I was playing in your campaign, I would appreciate the warning that you redefine "disease" to mean "disease caused by a virus or bacteria."

I'm not, however. And in any case, you realize that even if Shojo could have believably claimed to be a "senile paladin," that would still leave most of my and all of hamispence's posts.

[dps]

The Sapphire Guard believed Shojo followed the paladin code.

No one, least of all the nobles who didn't know the Sapphire Guard even existed, thought he was actually a paladin. Paladins are immune to all diseases, and senility is a name for a group of mental diseases; anyone who ever formulated the concept "senile paladin" should have immediately realized that Shojo could be a maximum of one of those words.

AFAIK, the recognition that senility is a symptom of several different diseases that affect older people is a relatively recent development. In the past, it was seen as a natural (though not necessarily inevitable) result of growing old. We don't know exactly what the state of medical knowledge in the OotS-world is, but I could certainly buy the idea that senility would not been seen as a disease in the setting.

EDIT: to clarify, I am not arguing that this means the Shojo was pretending to be a paladin, simply that being senile might not automatically mean that no one would believe that he was a paladin.

[rbetieh]

And in any case, you realize that even if Shojo could have believably claimed to be a "senile paladin," that would still leave most of my and all of hamispence's posts.


Every time he does anything the paladins wouldn't agree with, they think its because he's senile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) See also: O-Chul being asked to put Nale in jail. The Pallys can only tolerate but so much "rule-bending". What is he gonna say "Mr. Scruffy really likes Mikos long hair, so she should stay here next to me?" If Soon set up a bunch of rules for the Saphire Guard, it doesn't matter if the rules don't fit any more,the rules have to be followed.

[Lvl45DM!]

You're assuming the hobgoblins know about the phylactery. Durkon didn't know about it even as a mid-level cleric. Neither did V or Roy who know a lot about magic. There's no reason to assume that mook hobbos know about it

[MesiDoomstalker]

Didn't Miko's slaying of Shojo lead directly to Xykon finding out precisely where the gate is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html)?

In other words, if Miko had not snapped and killed her lord, Xykon and Redcloak would not have known where the gate was. Thus Xykon would be far less "this army of low level mooks is boring, I'm skipping straight to the final dungeon" and more "I'm going to destroy this entire army until someone tells me where the gate is, and then I'll destroy the rest anyway." If Xykon does not have the information to make a beeline for his goal, he's going to actually be a battlefield presence as opposed to killing Roy and Sangwaan and then doing nothing else. Likewise, it's more likely that he'd actually either take Redcloak with him when he does find the gate, or have blasted a path through the enemy forces that Redcloak can follow very quickly.

Xykon actually being part of the battle would, IMO, render it pretty much unwinnable for Azure City, even with the extra troops if the nobles stay. The Sapphire Guard would almost certainly still be, well, guarding the sapphire, and thus the net gain to both armies would be a few thousand low level troops on one side, and an epic level sorcerous lich on the other. I know which army I'd bet on.

Wrong. They figure out where the gate is because they can't scry on her when she enters the throne room and conclude the gate must be there. We are assuming Miko does not hear Shojo's confession of guilt and cracks (nor Hinjo). So we must decide when Miko enters the throne room at that point; either immidiatly after the confession but without hearing anything incriminating or immidiatly prior also not hearing anything incriminating. In either case, I don't see how that would affect Redcloak and Xykon's conclusion of the location of the gate.

So thus I conclude that Xykon's presence on the battle field would not change a single bit except he'd be ultimatly destroyed either by Miko-reinforced Paladins or Soon and the Ghost-Martyr squad. Redcloak may or may not have gotten to throne room and I'm not confident we can determine wheather he'd be successful if the nobles troops were present or not.

EDIT: I'd like to revise my statement: they don't figure out the location till after Miko falls. So when Miko enters the throne room and when she leaves (and who's talking) deteremines if they know the location of the gate.

[Kish]

Every time he does anything the paladins wouldn't agree with, they think its because he's senile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) See also: O-Chul being asked to put Nale in jail. The Pallys can only tolerate but so much "rule-bending". What is he gonna say "Mr. Scruffy really likes Mikos long hair, so she should stay here next to me?" If Soon set up a bunch of rules for the Saphire Guard, it doesn't matter if the rules don't fit any more,the rules have to be followed.
Relevance? Are you suggesting that Soon set up a rule that says "if there is ever a paladin in the Guard named Miko Miyazaki, she has to be sent out of Azure City at all times, including when an epic-level evil sorcerer leading a huge army is attacking the Gate"?

As I said, "All paladins who weren't the Lord of the city must be in the throne room in the event of an active threat to the Gate" would be a rule the Sapphire Guard might have had. This requirement for Miko to be out of the city constantly yes-even-then that you're arguing for, though? Not so much.

[Da'Shain]

Wrong. They figure out where the gate is because they can't scry on her when she enters the throne room and conclude the gate must be there. We are assuming Miko does not hear Shojo's confession of guilt and cracks (nor Hinjo). So we must decide when Miko enters the throne room at that point; either immidiatly after the confession but without hearing anything incriminating or immidiatly prior also not hearing anything incriminating. In either case, I don't see how that would affect Redcloak and Xykon's conclusion of the location of the gate.Er, read the comic I linked. When the throne room is shielded against scrying, they simply take that as being normal. It's only when Hinjo walks out of there while explaining to Roy exactly what and where the Gate is that they find out, well, what and where it is. Hinjo would have no reason to do so if Miko had not just come within a few inches of destroying it, which she would have no reason to do if she hadn't flipped out and killed Shojo. Furthermore, Shojo would still have been alive, so that even if the Gate's location was divulged, it would almost certainly have come from him and he's experienced enough to know NOT to divulge such information outside the scrying protection. So unless Xykon and Redcloak deduce that the Gate is in the throne room solely based on the scrying protection (which seems unlikely, as really, protection from scrying is a pretty standard thing for a place where state secrets are discussed), they would not be in possession of the Gate's location.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Er, read the comic I linked. When the throne room is shielded against scrying, they simply take that as being normal. It's only when Hinjo walks out of there while explaining to Roy exactly what and where the Gate is that they find out, well, what and where it is. Hinjo would have no reason to do so if Miko had not just come within a few inches of destroying it, which she would have no reason to do if she hadn't flipped out and killed Shojo. Furthermore, Shojo would still have been alive, so that even if the Gate's location was divulged, it would almost certainly have come from him and he's experienced enough to know NOT to divulge such information outside the scrying protection. So unless Xykon and Redcloak deduce that the Gate is in the throne room solely based on the scrying protection (which seems unlikely, as really, protection from scrying is a pretty standard thing for a place where state secrets are discussed), they would not be in possession of the Gate's location.

Read my edit. I realized my error and revised my statment. I didn't delete it as it still contains relevant data depending on how that scene plays out differently. We don't know how it would play differently. Its possible they maybe able to devise the location from the scry-blocking or possible that further Miko-scrying would eventually divulge the location but we just don't know.

When actual battle plans are layed out, Roy or some other member of the Order probably would ask why all the Paladins are stationed in the throne room and Hinjo would probably explain why. Whether Miko would be nearby is unkown.

[Da'Shain]

Read my edit. I realized my error and revised my statment. I didn't delete it as it still contains relevant data depending on how that scene plays out differently. We don't know how it would play differently. Its possible they maybe able to devise the location from the scry-blocking or possible that further Miko-scrying would eventually divulge the location but we just don't know.

When actual battle plans are layed out, Roy or some other member of the Order probably would ask why all the Paladins are stationed in the throne room and Hinjo would probably explain why. Whether Miko would be nearby is unkown.I apologize if that sounded brusque, but I disagree. Without the chance of the Gate having been destroyed somehow, there's no reason for the location of the Gate to be discussed outside of the throne room. Hinjo, being the new de facto ruler of Azure City in the wake of his uncle's death, made a judgment call in telling Roy exactly where the gate is, and either did not know or forgot that the throne room was warded against scrying specifically to prevent that kind of information getting out. Shojo is far more canny and experienced, and if he was still alive, would have been the one to decide whether to tell Roy or not; and he definitely knew not to talk about such things in an unprotected area.

It's certainly possible that Xykon and Redcloak could have found out about it some other way, but with Shojo alive and knowing perfectly well what their goal is, I doubt they would have found out easily if at all. The much more likely end in that case, IMO at least, is that they don't find out and either make an educated guess (even if they do guess the throne room, they're far less likely to just make a beeline for it since they don't know) or simply focus on taking the city and worry about the gate afterwards.

[rbetieh]

Relevance? Are you suggesting that Soon set up a rule that says "if there is ever a paladin in the Guard named Miko Miyazaki, she has to be sent out of Azure City at all times, including when an epic-level evil sorcerer leading a huge army is attacking the Gate"?

As I said, "All paladins who weren't the Lord of the city must be in the throne room in the event of an active threat to the Gate" would be a rule the Sapphire Guard might have had. This requirement for Miko to be out of the city constantly yes-even-then that you're arguing for, though? Not so much.


I stated she would have taken Hinjos spot and Hinjo would have been in the throne room. Its the Guards prime directive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) to defend the gate; but not every paladin is in the throne room. Somebody has to act as military commander, it wont be Shojo, because he is too old (and "senile"). My contention is that the decision of "In case of invasion, the military commander of the city falls to the top ranking Paladin in the guard" is the kind of decision a Paladin (like Soon) would have made, and that Shojo would have had a hard time contorting the rules in a way the Paladins could have understood.

[rewinn]

When actual battle plans are layed out, Roy or some other member of the Order probably would ask why all the Paladins are stationed in the throne room and Hinjo would probably explain why. Whether Miko would be nearby is unkown.
No, that didn't happen in the story as it actually occurred. The survival of Miko would change that not at all.

[factotum]

they're far less likely to just make a beeline for it since they don't know) or simply focus on taking the city and worry about the gate afterwards.

Which, of course, changes the entire tactics they used for the battle--Xykon wouldn't be flying straight for the castle on his undead dragon, for a start.

Of course, this all raises another point. Let's assume that Xykon and Redcloak succeed in taking the city, destroying Soon and his ghost paladins, and all the other stuff they'd have to do if Miko didn't kill Shojo, and furthermore, that none of the paladins in the throne room attempted to destroy the Gate. Given all that, how would they actually *find* the Gate in order to do anything with it? It's tiny, after all, and embedded in a perfectly ordinary looking gem in the back of the throne, so unless a hobgoblin tries to move the gem in order to sell it or something, I think they'd be looking for the thing for months.

[FujinAkari]

Paladins are immune to all diseases, and senility is a name for a group of mental diseases; anyone who ever formulated the concept "senile paladin" should have immediately realized that Shojo could be a maximum of one of those words.

Fun fact: You know another mental "disease" that Paladin's aren't immune too? Insanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)

D&D has a very specific definition of disease, and it isn't the one you're using.

Edit: Additionally, remember that Miko's attack on Shojo has been described numerous times as a mental breakdown, one which shouldn't be possible if your interpretation is to be believed. Miko was very clearly still a Paladin at the time she attacked, which either means The Giant is wrong in describing the attack as resulting from a mental breakdown, or you are wrong in assuming that immunity from disease prevents mental disorders.

[EnragedFilia]

More importantly, it can be deduced that whatever form of senility Shojo is faking would not be expected to respond to remove disease. If it did, his act would have been exposed as soon as they tried to remove it years ago. Similarly, then, disease immunity would almost certainly not apply.

[Unisus]

Depends on how suicidally loyal they are. It also doesn't need that many being loyal enough, have ten or twenty rush in an pick it up to throw it toward the exit is more than Soon can slay each round before they manage to get it out of the throne room

And why exactly would thy do that? I mean, without Xykon and Redcloak, they would just leave the throne room alone as soon as they realize, that it is deadly to enter.

[Ron Miel]

Given all that, how would they actually *find* the Gate in order to do anything with it? ... I think they'd be looking for the thing for months.

Remember that they were scrying on Miko. Even if she hadn't fallen, the likelihood is that she, or someone around her, would have mentioned the gate's location.

[Kish]

More importantly, it can be deduced that whatever form of senility Shojo is faking would not be expected to respond to remove disease. If it did, his act would have been exposed as soon as they tried to remove it years ago.

Ah, good point. Clearly Shojo was able to believably claim that his madness was not subject to paladin curing, indeed.

[MesiDoomstalker]

No, that didn't happen in the story as it actually occurred. The survival of Miko would change that not at all.

I'm not proposing this is what happened in the actual timeline. I'm proposing that this is a likely occurance given the OP's situation. Who asks, who responds, where they are, and Miko's presence or absence are all variables that we can't be certain of. We can presume that someone involved in the battle plans, such as Roy, would ask and that someone high in the Guard, such as Hinjo or Shojo would respond (or possibly not), and we can presume that it would be asked as the battle plans are laid out. If Shojo was present, he would only divulge such info if properly protected. I'm going to guess where they were making battle plans were equally protected as the throne room against scrying, as thats seems logical. So sans Miko's betrayal, chances of directly discovering the Gate's location is severly reduced. But it is all speculation that I do not claim to be the only way this scenario could occur.

[Querzis]

And why exactly would thy do that? I mean, without Xykon and Redcloak, they would just leave the throne room alone as soon as they realize, that it is deadly to enter.

Indeed. They werent even following Xykon, they were just following Redcloak and we have already seen from how Redcloak got the job that when their leader die, they dont really make a big deal about it. So I have really no idea why you would assume they would go into suicidal waves into the Throne room, especially since, well, its not like they give a damn about the Throne room, they dont even know about the gate.

Also, the fighting was still going on inside the castle when the gate exploded and the Order was preparing to sneak into the castle before the gate exploded so I would most definitly argue against the fact that no humans would ever get to the throne room to destroy Xykon Phylactery, Haley sneak is more then good enough to get the to throne room without a scratch...also, you know, O-chul was there and an epic level-paladin like Soon got plenty of spells that can remove paralysis so I have no idea why he would even have to wait for an human to enter the room.

Now of course, Miko inclusion into this kinda make things harder to figure out. Hell, we dont even know if Xykon would have gone straight to the Throne room.


Remember that they were scrying on Miko. Even if she hadn't fallen, the likelihood is that she, or someone around her, would have mentioned the gate's location.

Why? It was a big secret among the Saphire Guard and we never see them discuss it...thats kinda the point of it being a secret. And paladins are pretty big on keeping promise like:«dont talk about the location of the gate». Beside, Miko would most likely have been sent to the throne room to guard the gate and the throne room is warded against scrying anyway.

By the way, you guys dont understand why the nobles left with their soldiers. It wasnt about being scared, it was about the fact that they werent in control anymore. They thought they controlled Shojo and Shojo wasnt there anymore so they had lost their power over the city. Of course they werent gonna follow Hinjo out of loyalty but if Shojo would still have been alive then yes, you can be sure as hell they would have fought for their city because it would still have been their city instead of Hinjo city. I have absolutely no doubt the Nobles would have fought for their city if Shojo would still have been alive and I have absolutely no doubt it would have made a really big difference.

Oh and also, if Shojo had still been alive, he would have used that diamond to resurect his highest level wizard that could cast teleport instead of wasting it on himself. One cloudkill into that breach would have been all it take to hold the Hobgobelins army.

[Forikroder]

she would ahve died in the throne room with everyone else, her sence of honour and justice would ahve had her be the first one to attack Xykon and been one of the first casualties

her level in monk would ahve helped the will save (im assuming symbol of insanity is a will save) but Xykon probably would have had a special spot in his cold void around where his left lung was and taken her out first

besides Ochul only got close to the gate becuase Xycon allowed him to, if he thought there was any serious chance of a paladin actually taking the swing he would have forcegaged the throne

with an extra high level paladin among Soons troops she might have been able to resist redcloaks "turning" and perhaps taken redcloak out herself

as for the nobles Shojo might have been able to make some of them stay (at least none of the nobles would be sending any ninja death squads after the commanding officer or bribing combatants) Belkar might have had his mark of jsutice removed or temporarily disabled meaning he could ahve joined in the battle alot sooner

plus with Shojo alive teh wizard would ahve been ressurected and might have had a spell available to force Xykon onto the ground or have roy change his tactic of jumping onto the dragon keeping him in the battle

[Joerg]

Indeed. They werent even following Xykon, they were just following Redcloak and we have already seen from how Redcloak got the job that when their leader die, they dont really make a big deal about it. So I have really no idea why you would assume they would go into suicidal waves into the Throne room, especially since, well, its not like they give a damn about the Throne room, they dont even know about the gate.

Because they want to retrieve the body of Redcloak so that they can raise him from the dead. Or because they want to retrieve the Red Cloak itself because their actual god tells them to.



Also, the fighting was still going on inside the castle when the gate exploded and the Order was preparing to sneak into the castle before the gate exploded so I would most definitly argue against the fact that no humans would ever get to the throne room to destroy Xykon Phylactery, Haley sneak is more then good enough to get the to throne room without a scratch...


We were just talking about a hypothetical scenario where Team Evil first takes the city and then goes after the Gate. Where Xykon was helping to take the city. So its improbable that the fighting still continues and also improbable that the Order still prepares to defend the throne room.

Besides, their plans for that 'sneak' were not the best ...



also, you know, O-chul was there and an epic level-paladin like Soon got plenty of spells that can remove paralysis so I have no idea why he would even have to wait for an human to enter the room.


He himself says he would have to wait. Perhaps he couldn't cast such spells on paralyzed persons in his ghost form.

[Querzis]

Because they want to retrieve the body of Redcloak so that they can raise him from the dead. Or because they want to retrieve the Red Cloak itself because their actual god tells them to.

...they didnt raise their last boss from the dead (we dont even know if they got a cleric high-level enough to do that, redcloak was by far their highest level cleric) and we havent seen the Dark One speak directly to anyone except Redcloak. Hell, we havent seen any gods speak directly to their cleric anywhere else then when Redcloak got the cloak. Durkon thought a frigging storm was a sign Thor wanted him to do something, thats about as good as it would get for them.

Beside, I really doubt the Dark one care that much about Redcloak, he would just find someone else to accomplish his goal.


We were just talking about a hypothetical scenario where Team Evil first takes the city and then goes after the Gate.Where Xykon was helping to take the city. So its improbable that the fighting still continues and also improbable that the Order still prepares to defend the throne room.

Honestly? If Xykon actually helped conquering Azure city, I think he'd have ended up killing as many hobgobelins as humans. And he doesnt have unlimited spells either, running out of those before running into the OOTS woudnt have turned out that good for him, Roy was maybe totally outclassed, but his sword did hurt Xykon quite a bit.

And by the way, yes, as long as the gate didnt explode, the Order is planning to defend the throne room. It woudnt even have changed anything if every AC defenders were dead, they have to get to the throne room to stop Xykon from destroying the world, running doesnt really help in that situation.


Besides, their plans for that 'sneak' were not the best ...

Oh come on, Belkar plans dont count.


He himself says he would have to wait.

And Redcloak and Xykon themselves said they were screwed. They were both not expecting any help anytime soon, why would you?


Perhaps he couldn't cast such spells on paralyzed persons in his ghost form.

He could cast smite evil and hit people with it in his ghost form, why would he have a restriction on which abilities he can use? Hes a ghost, one of the greatest thing about becoming a ghost is that you get to keep all you magic abilities, just ask V.

Oh and by the way, why would people assume Soon cant leave the Throne room? Thats stupid, that would be like the crappiest defense system ever, it would mean that Xykon could quite litterally just stand right next to the door and blast magic missile at Soon until it killed him. If every threat to the gate can save themselves and then take months of planning their next assault just by frigging running out of the room then Soon deserve everything Girard said about him.

[Joerg]

...they didnt raise their last boss from the dead (we dont even know if they got a cleric high-level enough to do that, redcloak was by far their highest level cleric) and we havent seen the Dark One speak directly to anyone except Redcloak.

Presumably, the Dark One spoke directly to the first cleric who received the Red Cloak. Redcloak wasn't particularly interested in raising the last boss, but someone like Jirix may be interested in raising the one who was High Priest of the Dark One and who led the hobgoblins to their greatest victory since the time of the Dark One.



Honestly? If Xykon actually helped conquering Azure city, I think he'd have ended up killing as many hobgobelins as humans. And he doesnt have unlimited spells either, running out of those before running into the OOTS woudnt have turned out that good for him, Roy was maybe totally outclassed, but his sword did hurt Xykon quite a bit.


It seems to be a low-percentage scenario to me that Xykon will meet the Order without spells left.



And by the way, yes, as long as the gate didnt explode, the Order is planning to defend the throne room. It woudnt even have changed anything if every AC defenders were dead, they have to get to the throne room to stop Xykon from destroying the world, running doesnt really help in that situation.


Well, they could be dead.



Oh come on, Belkar plans dont count.

<g> I actually meant the other plan, too.



And Redcloak and Xykon themselves said they were screwed. They were both not expecting any help anytime soon, why would you?

It's possible that they didn't think too clearly with just a few hitpoints left. Also, Miko was just entering the throne room.



He could cast smite evil and hit people with it in his ghost form, why would he have a restriction on which abilities he can use? Hes a ghost, one of the greatest thing about becoming a ghost is that you get to keep all you magic abilities, just ask V.

I'm not an expert, but he clearly wasn't a normal ghost, he was something 'homebrewed'. Also, Smite Evil isn't a spell.


Oh and by the way, why would people assume Soon cant leave the Throne room? Thats stupid, that would be like the crappiest defense system ever, it would mean that Xykon could quite litterally just stand right next to the door and blast magic missile at Soon until it killed him. If every threat to the gate can save themselves and then take months of planning their next assault just by frigging running out of the room then Soon deserve everything Girard said about him.

I can't really answer that, but you could also ask why ghost-Soon wasn't still leading the Sapphire Guard. It's probable that his manifestation abilities were limited somehow.

[FujinAkari]

Oh and by the way, why would people assume Soon cant leave the Throne room? Thats stupid, that would be like the crappiest defense system ever, it would mean that Xykon could quite litterally just stand right next to the door and blast magic missile at Soon until it killed him. If every threat to the gate can save themselves and then take months of planning their next assault just by frigging running out of the room then Soon deserve everything Girard said about him.

We're not assuming he can't leave the throneroom in and of itself, we're saying that, judging from WHEN he chose to enter the battle (after the sapphire guard were wiped out and the city was breached, when O-chul was about to smash the crystal) that his ability to manifest seems linked to direct threats against the Sapphire itself.

If he had defeated Xykon and Redcloak, it is doubtful that he could have remained around, since there would no longer be a direct threat. He certainly doesn't seem to be able to go running about slaughtering the invading enemes seeing as, ya know, he didn't. He went back to Celestia. ((Granted, the Sapphire actually being smashed may have contributed to that, but even then that seems to support a theory about Soon being linked to the sapphire rather than able to do whatever he wants))

[Querzis]

Presumably, the Dark One spoke directly to the first cleric who received the Red Cloak. Redcloak wasn't particularly interested in raising the last boss, but someone like Jirix may be interested in raising the one who was High Priest of the Dark One and who led the hobgoblins to their greatest victory since the time of the Dark One.

Considering the fact that Jirix was right outside the room, he'd most likely have gotten killed too. But anyway, once again, I very highly doubt they got any cleric high-level enough to cast a rez, Redcloak was by far their highest level cleric. Hell, Jirix is presumably their second highest level cleric and he got one-shotted by O-chul.


It seems to be a low-percentage scenario to me that Xykon will meet the Order without spells left.

Hey, he was reduced to using very low-level spells in the throne room. And with Shojo alive, you got quite a few more high-level people on the field that wont go down from low-level spells from him such as Shojo magician or Therkla. Beside, if he really start using his best spells on the OOTS and the human army, that bsically mean he wont have spells left to fight Soon once he get to the throne room...not especially better.


<g> I actually meant the other plan, too.

The gouda one? Honestly, from what I had seen from the hobgobelins (especially them getting fooled so easely by Elan illusion) I kinda half-expect it to have worked. This is OOTS, the more silly a plan is, the more chance it has to succeed especially when Elan is concerned...belt of gender changing anyone?


It's possible that they didn't think too clearly with just a few hitpoints left. Also, Miko was just entering the throne room.

True on Miko but that doesnt change the fact that finding another human in the Castle when the fight is even still going on in the courtyard shoudnt be that hard. And bringing them back alive for a guy like Soon shouldnt be a problem either.



I'm not an expert, but he clearly wasn't a normal ghost, he was something 'homebrewed'. Also, Smite Evil isn't a spell

Nope but its a class ability and, judging from the fact that Soon was so much stronger then all the others, he obviously got to keep his paladin levels. So really, not much reason why he coudnt, ethereal being can interact with living (or undead) beings just fine regardless of if its to curse them or heal them, its just that they go right through object so unless you consider O-chul an object, yeah, he can touch him just as well as he can slash Xykon and Redcloak.


I can't really answer that, but you could also ask why ghost-Soon wasn't still leading the Sapphire Guard. It's probable that his manifestation abilities were limited somehow.

We're not assuming he can't leave the throneroom in and of itself, we're saying that, judging from WHEN he chose to enter the battle (after the sapphire guard were wiped out and the city was breached, when O-chul was about to smash the crystal) that his ability to manifest seems linked to direct threats against the Sapphire itself.

Oh definitly, I'm not denying that but:


If he had defeated Xykon and Redcloak, it is doubtful that he could have remained around, since there would no longer be a direct threat.

Yes Xykon would most definitly still be. As long as the philactery isnt destroyed, Xykon is just as much a direct threat as someone who just ran out of the room would be, hes gonna be back soon enough. Now I dont deny that he might just go away once Xykon is destroyed even if the hobgobelins are still holding the city but really, at that point, I dont see why it would matter all that much either.


He certainly doesn't seem to be able to go running about slaughtering the invading enemes seeing as, ya know, he didn't.

He was kinda too busy fighting Xykon to kill anything else.When he appeared, Xykon was there, why would he go fight anything else? If he need to get out of the room to find an human and get him back to the throne room to destroy the philactery though, I really see absolutely no reason why he coudnt (and if he really cant then, once again, that means his ritual is incredibly stupid and shortsighted. I doubt he got to epic level by making huge obvious mistake like this.) Also, dont tell me all the humans were dead already, thats obviously false, there was still plenty of humans fighting in the castle as well as the courtyard, hell the prison guards were still at their post when Nale escaped. Also, the guerilla was still strong months after the invasion and hobgobelins captured plenty of people to use as slaves.


He went back to Celestia. ((Granted, the Sapphire actually being smashed may have contributed to that, but even then that seems to support a theory about Soon being linked to the sapphire rather than able to do whatever he wants))

Oh definitly, he said himself that with the gate destroyed he'd have to go back to Celestia.

[Joerg]

Querzis: I'm not going into all the separate points here again. I just want to point out that I'm talking about a hypothetical scenario where the hobgoblins have taken the city first, while you seem to be talking about the actual situation that happened. So, in the scene I'm discussing, there is no fighting any more in the courtyard, Xykon may have rested and refreshed his spells after the battle and before attacking the throne room, and no-one can say where Jirix is.

BTW, O-Chul didn't one-shot Jirix, the goblin was already hit by V's chain lightning. I personally have no problem imagining that Jirix is 9th level.

[Querzis]

Querzis: I'm not going into all the separate points here again. I just want to point out that I'm talking about a hypothetical scenario where the hobgoblins have taken the city first, while you seem to be talking about the actual situation that happened. So, in the scene I'm discussing, there is no fighting any more in the courtyard, Xykon may have rested and refreshed his spells after the battle and before attacking the throne room, and no-one can say where Jirix is.

But that make no sense. If Xykon helped in the battle, that means he doesnt know where the Gate is and therefore, yes, he would go into the throne room after a while since that would still be where all the paladins are and nobody else then him could really take them. Its Xykon, of course he would go for the Throne room sooner or later, especially when he learn thats where the paladins are holed up. And if he know where the gate is, well, he obviously went into the throne room. One way or another, hes going there before the battle is over. Also, once again, Xykon might just end up killing as many hobgobelins as humans, its frigging Xykon, so I think they might very well have a good shot at defending the city if Shojo was still alive regardless of if Xykon helped or not.


BTW, O-Chul didn't one-shot Jirix, the goblin was already hit by V's chain lightning. I personally have no problem imagining that Jirix is 9th level.

Honestly, getting two-shotted isnt that much better, O-chul didnt even use smite evil and had an improvised weapon. Also, Jirix was the hobgobelin cleric standing outside the throne room so even if he didnt get one-shot by O-chul, he most definitly got one-shot by Miko.

[rbetieh]

Honestly, getting two-shotted isnt that much better, O-chul didnt even use smite evil and had an improvised weapon. Also, Jirix was the hobgobelin cleric standing outside the throne room so even if he didnt get one-shot by O-chul, he most definitly got one-shot by Miko.

Divine might? Does the comic require Pallys to say they are using DM before using it? Then again, I cant see it adding more than 5 or 6 damage at the very most.

[Kish]

What's Divine Might? *googles* Oh, Deities and Demigods feat. No indication that it exists in the OotS setting at all.

[eulmanis12]

Two possible scenarios:
A: Xycon does not know where the gate is and thus joins the battle.

B:Xycon finds out about the gate anyway by scrying/other means and goes directly for the gate.

In A:
There is no reason for Xycon to hide where he is, the Order concentrates their collective power on a single target, and engages him, either defeating him, or severely damaging him (remember they already beat him once, its not impossible for them to do it . Meanwhile the rest of the battle rages with extra troops on azure city's side. The ninjas employed by the nobles, instead of going after hinjo, engage high/mid profile evil targets, possibly preventing the goblin ninjas from opening the castle gates. Miko is most likely in the throne room, Hinjo probably is too, The Azurite general commands the defence, being a general he probably does a decent job as commander. I doubt evil would have won a resounding victory. Most likely the initial battle would have been a stalemate with both sides taking heavy casualties, then a siege sets in. Azurite troops that were not recalled for the initial battle muster outside the city and attack the evil troops from behind. Azure city's allies might come to its aid since it is still a power at large and there is something to be gained by helping it. I predict the city holding.

In B: Xycon enteres the throne room, Soon destroys him again, Miko either helps or just dies like all the others, Ochul still gets parilized or incapacitated, Miko does not destroy the gate because she will likely have a much better understanding of what is going on. She only destroyed the gate because she thought it was going to be captured, if she had been there the whole time she would not have made that mistake. Redcloak eventualy fights his way to the throne room and either, watches Xycon die, or gets killed alongside him, the phylatery gets destroyed by either Soon, or the Order (who are aware of its existance)


Either way, I think that Miko's fall being avoided would have had a positive effect for the Azurites in the outcome of the battle.

[Forum Explorer]

Two possible scenarios:
A: Xycon does not know where the gate is and thus joins the battle.

B:Xycon finds out about the gate anyway by scrying/other means and goes directly for the gate.

In A:
There is no reason for Xycon to hide where he is, the Order concentrates their collective power on a single target, and engages him, either defeating him, or severely damaging him (remember they already beat him once, its not impossible for them to do it . Meanwhile the rest of the battle rages with extra troops on azure city's side. The ninjas employed by the nobles, instead of going after hinjo, engage high/mid profile evil targets, possibly preventing the goblin ninjas from opening the castle gates. Miko is most likely in the throne room, Hinjo probably is too, The Azurite general commands the defence, being a general he probably does a decent job as commander. I doubt evil would have won a resounding victory. Most likely the initial battle would have been a stalemate with both sides taking heavy casualties, then a siege sets in. Azurite troops that were not recalled for the initial battle muster outside the city and attack the evil troops from behind. Azure city's allies might come to its aid since it is still a power at large and there is something to be gained by helping it. I predict the city holding.

I

Last time they killed Xykon with a Mcguffin that would instant kill evil creatures. Besides that they did zero damage while he was only cast magic missile and symbol of pain. This time he wouldn't hold back and would decimate the walls with meteor swarms and symbols of insanity. The OotS would not be able to engage him except for perhaps Roy where we would get a repeat of what happened in the original fight.

[rbetieh]

Last time they killed Xykon with a Mcguffin that would instant kill evil creatures. Besides that they did zero damage while he was only cast magic missile and symbol of pain. This time he wouldn't hold back and would decimate the walls with meteor swarms and symbols of insanity. The OotS would not be able to engage him except for perhaps Roy where we would get a repeat of what happened in the original fight.

I think Xykon also gained a level or two. He had to fight every good aligned monster in the monster manual.

[eulmanis12]

The OotS also had gained levels since their first encounter with Xycon. I'm fairly certain that the entire order would be able to engage Xycon if he weren't trying to sneak into the throne room, He wouldn't have been invisible, and there wouldn't have been

:mitd: "Xycon is a triplet!?"

I'm fairly certain that with the help of V and Durkon alone, Roy could have beaten or at least stood off Xycon. Add Belkar (who is allowed to kill Xycon because he is undead), Elan, and Haley into the mix and Xycon might have bitten off more than he could chew.

[Kish]

I'm fairly certain that the entire order would be able to engage Xycon if he weren't trying to sneak into the throne room, He wouldn't have been invisible, and there wouldn't have been

:mitd: "Xycon is a triplet!?"
The plan was never for Xykon to sneak into the throne room. Nothing they did with the decoys hinges on knowing the Gate is in the throne room. :redcloak: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) "The idea was, the real Xykon would sneak into the castle, kill everyone there and animate them as zombies. Summon a few monsters for flavor and boom, we've opened up a second front behind the defenders." What part of that hinges on, or even involves, them specifically knowing where the Gate is? If anything, Xykon is likely to follow Redcloak's plan for longer if he can't say, "Bored now, off to the Gate!"

"How would the Sapphire Guard have fared if there had been no decoys and no invisible Xykon attacking the walls?" is an entirely separate question from the one in the thread title.