Is there a way to cast Divine spells as Arcane?

[JamesW]

So, a group that I play with really needs a cleric. Only, I don't really like playing clerics. So, is there a class, not PrC, that can choose to cast divine spells as arcane?

I'm specifically looking for healing and resurrecting spells.

Thanks in advance!

[Necroticplague]

Adept NPC class, can select its spells from wizard, cleric, and druid list.

[W3bDragon]

If you drop the resurrection requirement, a bard would do.

[ILM]

To answer your question, the Southern Magician feat allows you to cast arcane spells as divine and vice versa, but doesn't let you learn divine spells when you're an arcane caster.

Sorc/wiz with Arcane Disciple (Healing) would give you one of each level per day. Bards get healing spells on their list. Doesn't Wu-jen or Warmage get some healing spells as well?

edit: answer is no. However, you could get similar effects with Bard/ Sublime Chord/ Combat Medic shenanigans.

[Demon of Death]

Adept NPC class, can select its spells from wizard, cleric, and druid list.

If your DM doesn't let you play NPC Classes (some don't), you can try for the Archivist in Heroes of Horror. It chooses spell from any divine list, so not quite what you're looking for, but with some sort of cheese some say you can cast arcane spells as well.

[Elric VIII]

Arcane Disciple for the Healing Domain will allow you to use wands of CLW.

[Psyren]

Required reading for your group. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_(And,_why_you_will_be_J ust_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal)) Tell them "healer" is not a required role and can actually hold the group back.

If you don't like healing though, chances are it's because you just aren't playing a class or build that makes it fun. In 3.5, some of my favorite healing builds are the Eldritch Disciple (with Healing Blast), Incarnate (with Lifebond Vestments,) Binder (with Buer), or any psionic class with a 3-level Sangehirn dip.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Bard is solid; the Arcane Preparation feat lets you get into Wyrm Wizard, which gets you access to the healing spells that Bards don't normally get. Bard/Wyrm Wizard/Sublime Chord is one of my favorite builds.

If you can talk your DM into Pathfinder material, the Witch from the Advanced Player's Guide gets almost all of the relevant spells and you can take the Hedge Witch archetype for spontaneous healing like a Cleric after 4th. (Really, spontaneous healing and empathic healing should just be Hex options in the first place.)

If your problem has more to do with being a Cleric or having to use the Cleric spell list than divine magic itself, consider Shugenja. Charisma-based spontaneous divine caster with a varied spell list.

Likewise, Chameleon. Chameleon is the answer to almost everything-- if it could get 9th level spells before epic it would be Tier -2. Cast ALL the spells.

[Anthrowhale]

Archivist includes many arcane spells via domains, and many more via Anyspell.

[Cog]

...via Anyspell.
Though that's not very useful until you get your archivist some domain slots to plug those spells into.

[Elric VIII]

Though that's not very useful until you get your archivist some domain slots to plug those spells into.

I think the plan is to have your Cleric buddy cast Anyspell and make a divine scroll of the spell. Either that or get a Warlock cohort.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Research arcane versions of the required spells as an arcane caster.

[Doc Roc]

There's a little-known PrC called Hexer. It'll get you most of what you want, if you combine it with a couple other sources of off-list spells.

It's also hilarious.

[Thespianus]

There's a little-known PrC called Hexer. It'll get you most of what you want, if you combine it with a couple other sources of off-list spells.

It's also hilarious.
I like hilarious, where can I find this Hilarious Hexer? :)

[Cog]

Hexer comes from Masters of the Wild.

[Venger]

Hexer requires you to be a monstrous humanoid, giant, goblinoid, or "other primitive humanoid such as orc or gnoll" though and cast lightning bolt as a divine spell. this is normally only possible if you are an adept, which was the RAI since races of faerun was published after masters of the wild. however, a sor/wizard (since they are the only people who can cast lightning bolt) with the southern magician feat could cast lightning bolt "as a divine spell" (you must be a Mulan human (races of faerun p95) and able to cast 2nd lvl spells)

as the name suggests, mulan humans are based rather heavily off of ancient chinese culture being very isolated and having a very different interpretation of the afterlife than the other human races in faerun. they also speak their own language and interact little with other cultures believing them inferior on basis of race. they are very traditional, emphasizing respect to elders and authority figures and averse to change.

as long as you could make it clear to your DM that you were reading "primitive humanoid" on a purely technological level and not in any kind of horrible racist way (the physical description describes the mulan human's as "slim, sallow-skinned....[and] lack[ing] much body hair" but just because the splatbooks are racists don't mean you have to be. then I think he would probably allow you to play as a mulan hexer. thematically it's got the whole "mystic orient" thing going on and because the mulan people seldom venture away from their homeland (as you would imagine, they are rather tight with thayans due to their similar ideology) so when NPCs saw them they might not recognise them as one of the human races they are familiar with.

[Reaver225]

At level 14 limited wish can duplicate raise dead. A better option if you want to spend twice as much XP is revenance and then revivify which also means you don't have to have diamonds on hand.

[Venger]

At level 14 limited wish can duplicate raise dead. A better option if you want to spend twice as much XP is revenance and then revivify which also means you don't have to have diamonds on hand.

start every day with a contingencied revivify. collect your DM's tears for later use.

[Reaver225]

start every day with a contingencied revivify. collect your DM's tears for later use.


This spell functions like raise dead (PH 268), except that the raised creature receives no level loss, no Constitution loss, and no loss of spells. The creature has –1 hit points (but is stable).

"The orc frowns, shrugs, and hits you with the battleaxe again."

[dextercorvia]

You can use the Sorcerer 'predominantly' clause to see if you can learn the status removal spells. It seems like a waste of resources to me.

You could also try Favored Soul, Druid, or Mystic.

[Venger]

"The orc frowns, shrugs, and hits you with the battleaxe again."

1: you are hit with a blow that would kill you (in order to trigger the contingencied revivify condition of "go off when I die" or "go off when I hit -10hp" depending on how immersion vs break the 4th wall your group is)
2: you drop to the ground, unconscious and bleeding your ass off
3: the orc hits you again as opposed to your party members who are alive (and more importantly kicking?)

I would cry foul if a DM pulled that if I'd gone to the time and effort of having a contingincied revivify on me all the time (which I originally intended as a joke, in case that wasn't clear earlier) since you'd have to be able to cast 6th lvl wizard spells, have a CL of at least 15, and 5th lvl cleric spells and it'd cost you 1000gp every15 in-game days, which is a hell of an upkeep cost, even at level 15.

not like it'd break the game or anything, I doubt you'd walk around with both of those spells prepared all the time (kinda the point of contingencying revivify) so if you were killed and revived then it'd take you another day to recast the spells on yourself (and your money rotation may be thrown off depending on how big a buffer you left for yourself) and for the rest of the day you'd be vulnerable to being killed just like any other chump

[Lord.Sorasen]

Is there a possibility you can use pathfinder material? Infernal healing works sort of if you don't mind being evil, and it is a wizard spell. Works like lesser vigor, and you could put it through a wand for a decent effect. I should note though that it would take a minute to cure 10 hp, and if you have a time sensitive DM it could theoretically cause problems.

[jiriku]

Required reading for your group. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_(And,_why_you_will_be_J ust_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal)) Tell them "healer" is not a required role and can actually hold the group back.

If you don't like healing though, chances are it's because you just aren't playing a class or build that makes it fun. In 3.5, some of my favorite healing builds are the Eldritch Disciple (with Healing Blast), Incarnate (with Lifebond Vestments,) Binder (with Buer), or any psionic class with a 3-level Sangehirn dip.

The healer's guide should indeed be required reading for every group. Some suggestions I'd make for arcane healing:
1. Play a wizard or wu jen.
2. Take Arcane Disciple (healing) for 1/day access to all spells on the healing domain list.
3. Have the party invest in a wand of cure light wounds (which you will use to heal the group between combats), and a few healing belts for emergency healing in combat.
4. At higher levels, splash the appropriate feats and class levels into a class that allows you to spontaneously convert any spell into a specific known spell (which will be heal). Options include dweomerkeeper 1, magelord 7, or the Uncanny Forethought feat. Alternately, use the sanctum repeat mordenkainen's lucubration combo to repeatedly cast the same sanctum heal spell throughout the day. Congratulations, you now spontaneously cast heal as an arcane caster.

[Coidzor]

Archivist. You're a wizard with class features that casts divine spells. Bam.

Only real problem is that you're really vulnerable to the DM being unreasonable, a jerk, or just plain messing with you.
There's a little-known PrC called Hexer. It'll get you most of what you want, if you combine it with a couple other sources of off-list spells.

It's also hilarious.

How is it hilarious? Other than that primitives get a better PrC for gishing than devoted gishes like the elves do?


"The orc frowns, shrugs, and hits you with the battleaxe again."

That doesn't particularly make sense for anything other than a non-self preserving entity with Deathwatch or some ability to sense life, and just sounds like the DM going out of his way to be a jerk.


start every day with a contingencied revivify. collect your DM's tears for later use.

...If the DM will cry because he doesn't get to add a notch into his bed post for a PC death, perhaps you shouldn't be playing with them. :smallconfused:

[Siosilvar]

Rainbow Servant (CD) adds the entire Cleric list to your class list at 10th level. If you're a spontaneous full-list caster like Beguiler or Warmage you can then cast the entire Cleric list spontaneously.

However, the table only gives you 6/10 casting progression, while the text gives full casting. It's listed as Moderate Casting earlier in the book and the majority of translations give it 6/10 casting in both text and table. Text trumps table, but don't be surprised if your DM houserules it to provide only 6/10 casting progression.

EDIT: Whoops, just noticed the non-PrC requirement in the OP. Never mind.

[Venger]

That doesn't particularly make sense for anything other than a non-self preserving entity with Deathwatch or some ability to sense life, and just sounds like the DM going out of his way to be a jerk.



...If the DM will cry because he doesn't get to add a notch into his bed post for a PC death, perhaps you shouldn't be playing with them. :smallconfused:

exactly. that makes no sense and is just the DM being a douche. if the DM will cry because he doesn't get to nonsensically kill your character and notch the bedpost of the bed that he cries himself to sleep in alone every night, then he should be made to cry. no, I would concur you shouldn't play with this hypothetical DM who doesn't know how the rules or basic logic works.


(Rainbow Servant stuff)

nope, rainbow servant is full casting. it's been errata'd. and when in doubt, as you said, text over table

[Curmudgeon]

I think the plan is to have your Cleric buddy cast Anyspell and make a divine scroll of the spell.
The Clerical spell Anyspell is a divine spell. The spell that they can prepare with Anyspell is arcane, though, and that doesn't change when the Cleric makes a scroll of that arcane spell. The class(es) of the scriber don't matter when using Scribe Scroll.

[olentu]

The Clerical spell Anyspell is a divine spell. The spell that they can prepare with Anyspell is arcane, though, and that doesn't change when the Cleric makes a scroll of that arcane spell. The class(es) of the scriber don't matter when using Scribe Scroll.

I seem to recall a passage that says that the type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class. That would seem to be completely contradictory to your assertion.

[Heliomance]

nope, rainbow servant is full casting. it's been errata'd. and when in doubt, as you said, text over table

Pretty sure it's never been errata'd. Text trumps table is the official line, but there's still debate over it, and if there'd been errata there wouldn't be.

[Venger]

Pretty sure it's never been errata'd. Text trumps table is the official line, but there's still debate over it, and if there'd been errata there wouldn't be.

upon further inspection, you are right. I must have been confusing it with a different class. my mistake, but text says full, so that's what's used.

[Reaver225]

That doesn't particularly make sense for anything other than a non-self preserving entity with Deathwatch or some ability to sense life, and just sounds like the DM going out of his way to be a jerk.I was thinking it wouldn't really stop a DM killing you if he really wanted to kill you or a TPK was occuring: if EVERYONE is in the negatives, revivify isn't going to help and a contingent raise dead might be a better option to start off in the negatives.

Especially if you're, for example, picking fights with dragons with giant orc armies at their disposal who are otherwise trying to talk to you or whatever and then laughing in the DM's face in order to make him cry because you're dragging the party into fights and having them waste perfectly good plot hooks because you you want to say "but I spent resources into coming back from the dead, I should be allowed to do anything I like and be killed with no strings or issues whatsoever!"

But this is all conjecture and away from the topic of the thread. I'm not bitter at all.

It really is conjecture because I haven't DM'd before so yeah

[Curmudgeon]

I seem to recall a passage that says that the type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class. That would seem to be completely contradictory to your assertion.
Can you cite a source other than your memory, please?

[Coidzor]

I was thinking it wouldn't really stop a DM killing you if he really wanted to kill you or a TPK was occuring: if EVERYONE is in the negatives, revivify isn't going to help and a contingent raise dead might be a better option to start off in the negatives.

Especially if you're, for example, picking fights with dragons with giant orc armies at their disposal who are otherwise trying to talk to you or whatever and then laughing in the DM's face in order to make him cry because you're dragging the party into fights and having them waste perfectly good plot hooks because you you want to say "but I spent resources into coming back from the dead, I should be allowed to do anything I like and be killed with no strings or issues whatsoever!"

But this is all conjecture and away from the topic of the thread. I'm not bitter at all.

It really is conjecture because I haven't DM'd before so yeah

Awfully specific and weird example to bring up though.

[olentu]

Can you cite a source other than your memory, please?

You know what why not. I mean technically you should be the one presenting evidence for your unsupported claim given that you opened the discussion on the point but I am a nice guy so sure I will let this one slide.

"The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class. For example, clerics create scrolls of divine spells, wizards create scrolls of arcane spells, and so forth." DMG page 238

So either the cleric makes a scroll of a divine version of the spell or it is absolutely impossible for the cleric to make a scroll of the spell. Either way it would seem that the class is the determining factor as to what type of spell is on the created scroll.

[Curmudgeon]

"The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class. For example, clerics create scrolls of divine spells, wizards create scrolls of arcane spells, and so forth." DMG page 238

So either the cleric makes a scroll of a divine version of the spell or it is absolutely impossible for the cleric to make a scroll of the spell. Either way it would seem that the class is the determining factor as to what type of spell is on the created scroll.
That DMG statement is only a generalization for the simple cases. (Anyspell did not exist at the time that was written.) It's also descriptive rather than proscriptive. That means that a Wizard/Cleric character doesn't create scrolls that are always both arcane and divine; instead, such a character can create scrolls containing the spells they know, from both the arcane and divine spells available to them, with each spell maintaining its type as it's scribed.

[olentu]

That DMG statement is only a generalization for the simple cases. (Anyspell did not exist at the time that was written.) It's also descriptive rather than proscriptive. That means that a Wizard/Cleric character doesn't create scrolls that are always both arcane and divine; instead, such a character can create scrolls containing the spells they know, from both the arcane and divine spells available to them, with each spell maintaining its type as it's scribed.

Sorry but it is an explicit statement that "The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.". Even if only a reminder it is an explicit restatement of the rule it is reminding one of. And as you know any rule in the core books absolutely and without fail overrides other books (barring possibly the rules compendium). And don't bring in the it was not a problem at the time argument. With the ability of casters to cooperate on magic items it was perfectly possible at the time that rule was written for a cleric to create a scroll of a previously arcane spell that was provided by a wizard.

Class must without fail determine the type of scroll created. If you say that the spell determines the type of scroll instead of the class then you are breaking the rules.

[Heliomance]

Sorry but it is an explicit statement that "The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.". Even if only a reminder it is an explicit restatement of the rule it is reminding one of. And as you know any rule in the core books absolutely and without fail overrides other books (barring possibly the rules compendium). And don't bring in the it was not a problem at the time argument. With the ability of casters to cooperate on magic items it was perfectly possible at the time that rule was written for a cleric to create a scroll of a previously arcane spell that was provided by a wizard.

Class must without fail determine the type of scroll created. If you say that the spell determines the type of scroll instead of the class then you are breaking the rules.
So what happens in the case of a wizard/cleric multiclass?

Not that I think you're wrong. I'm enjoying seeing someone get one over Curmudgeon in the RAW-off!

[Necroticplague]

So what happens in the case of a wizard/cleric multiclass?

Not that I think you're wrong. I'm enjoying seeing someone get one over Curmudgeon in the RAW-off!

They create divine/arcane combination scrolls? Although this does remind me of a similar question, what are scrolls created by archivists, since they aren't spellcasters? Do they create scrolls that are neither divine nor Arcane in nature and can only be activated via UMD?

[Chronos]

I think you mean artificers, there, not archivists. And IIRC, the scrolls they create can in fact only be used via UMD.

On the Archivist/Anyspell question, it doesn't even matter if a cleric can make a scroll of it, since Archivists do get a few spells for free as they level up. Just choose Anyspell for one of those.

And back to the OP, what is it about playing a cleric that you don't like? That'll determine what our restriction on "not like a cleric, because I don't like those" really is.

[olentu]

So what happens in the case of a wizard/cleric multiclass?

Not that I think you're wrong. I'm enjoying seeing someone get one over Curmudgeon in the RAW-off!

Unfortunatly once you get past pure wizard or cleric you have to go on the "and so forth" bit for things like rangers, bards, casters not included in the core rules, and the like. I mean they don't even give a hint on the assassin so even within the core rules there is rather large ambiguity.

However the important thing is that whatever the DM rules on the matter the class must determine the type of scroll for it to be valid.

[JaronK]

So what happens in the case of a wizard/cleric multiclass?

Pick one of your classes, make the scroll with that class. After all, you had to be using one of their casting abilities to make the scroll. I'd recommend the one you have a higher caster level in (assuming you have a higher caster level in one than the other, such as a Wizard/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge or something).

But yes, the type of the scroll is determined by your class.

To answer the OP's question though... why not just play an Archivist? Then you get to act like a Wizard, but you get the all the divine spells you wanted. The other, cheesier option is to be a Dragonwrought Kobold Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, or Warmage. Use the right Sovereign Archetype and you can add all Cleric spells to your list (and they're arcane).

JaronK

[The Dark Fiddler]

And as you know any rule in the core books absolutely and without fail overrides other books (barring possibly the rules compendium).

You're kidding, right? :smallconfused:

[dextercorvia]

You're kidding, right? :smallconfused:

If there is a contradiction between the two. Supplements are free to make new rules, but they must be consistent with core.

[olentu]

You're kidding, right? :smallconfused:

dextercorvia seems to have explained the point.

[The Dark Fiddler]

If there is a contradiction between the two. Supplements are free to make new rules, but they must be consistent with core.

Honestly, that seems backwards to me. The newer book, being... newer, should trump the older ruling. I can't imagine where I'd find anything that says this, though, so...

Edit: Also, I'd imagine it'd be a bit difficult to tell the difference between new rule and contradiction, at some points.

[dextercorvia]

Honestly, that seems backwards to me. The newer book, being... newer, should trump the older ruling. I can't imagine where I'd find anything that says this, though, so...

Edit: Also, I'd imagine it'd be a bit difficult to tell the difference between new rule and contradiction, at some points.

Newer trumps older as far as splats go -- if for example, two feats have the same name, you use the one from most recent supplement you are playing with. Remember, splats are supposed to be supplements -- releasing 'errata' in a splat would contradict everything they say about what you need to have to play the game.

[DigoDragon]

But this is all conjecture and away from the topic of the thread. I'm not bitter at all.[/SIZE]

As a DM, I did that accidently. Red dragon took the wizard to negatives, his contingent spell goes off and brings him up to -4. Then in the next round the dragon used his fire breath on the fighter and the unconscious wizard happened to be just within the cone. Oops. :smalleek:


But uh, on topic, one nice trick I like doing for BBEGs that don't have clerics handy is to equip them with Rings of Spell Storing that have some healing spells loaded on. This trick works well with PCs too, as anyone can make use of the rings, plus the party wizard with the Arcane Disciple [Healing] feat can reload the rings later (abit slowly if by wrote memory).

Also, what is the viability with Rune Staffs from the Magic Item Compendium? I don't have much experience with them yet, but if I recall how the work correctly, the wizard could attune himself and have it filled with healing spells (useable 3 times per day) for the extra healing edge as needed. Does that sound right?

[dextercorvia]

Also, what is the viability with Rune Staffs from the Magic Item Compendium? I don't have much experience with them yet, but if I recall how the work correctly, the wizard could attune himself and have it filled with healing spells (useable 3 times per day) for the extra healing edge as needed. Does that sound right?

You have to have the spell on your list to cast it from a Runestaff. It might let a Wizard with Arcane Disciple do it more than once per day, but if you are going the item route, just buy Belts of Healing. It'll be cheaper in GP, and in daily resources like spell slots.

Probably, I would go with getting UMD as a class skill (or just using it cross class), and as many wands of Lesser Vigor (say 10 charges instead of 50 if that is available) as seemed prudent based on the possibility of 'breaking' one until the next day.

[lunar2]

yes, you can cast spells from the cleric list as a sorcerer if your DM allows it, no research required. remember that a spell is divine if cast by a divine caster, and arcane if cast by an arcane caster. the spell itself doesn't matter. arcane casters cast arcane spells, always with no exceptions. they can cast resurrection if allowed, but it's an arcane spell when they cast it.

[DigoDragon]

You have to have the spell on your list to cast it from a Runestaff. It might let a Wizard with Arcane Disciple do it more than once per day, but if you are going the item route, just buy Belts of Healing. It'll be cheaper in GP, and in daily resources like spell slots.

That would probably be more efficient if all you need are healing spells. Though depending on the Domain chosen, you could have some other nifty divine spells at your disposal. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and I agree on your UMD comment. Best skill ever.