Additional "ability scores"

[Morph Bark]

Unearthed Arcana has Sanity, Honor and Reputation. Player's Handbook II has Affiliation scores. Heroes of Horror has Taint (which can be split into corruption and depravity). Fiendish Codex II has Corruption (your evilness) and Obeisance (your lawfulness).

Anything else? I thought Fiendish Codex I might have something that shows your chaoticness, but I cannot seem to find it.

[Ozymandias]

BoEF has "attractiveness" or "beauty" or something.

[sonofzeal]

BoEF has "attractiveness" or "beauty" or something.
Appearance, I'm pretty sure.

[Eldan]

Didn't something also have a Comeliness score, or am I imagining that?

Edit: Wiki says:

Comeliness (COM): In the original version of AD&D Comeliness was introduced as a 7th Ability Score/Stat in the supplemental rulebook Unearthed Arcana to differentiate between physical attractiveness and Charisma. Comeliness has not appeared as an officially supported ability score since, although the second edition rules Player's Option: Skills & Powers introduced a subability score named "Appearance."


Which is strange, as I certainly haven't read any of those AD&D books.

[BIGMamaSloth]

Doesn't Heroes of Battle have some form of reputation that amounts to your ranking in the army? would that count?

[NeoSeraphi]

Which is strange, as I certainly haven't read any of those AD&D books.

It was also mentioned in the AD&D version of Oriental Adventures, if that helps.

[Morph Bark]

Shame that dinna carry over to 3.0 OA then. What was it used for exactly?

I think you're right about Heroes of Battle, BIGMamaSloth. Commander score, maybe? I'll take a looksie in my copy.

[Keneth]

Appearance, I'm pretty sure. We always roll for appearance in our games since charisma has nothing to do with how good (or bad) you look. And as the gods of balance would have it, the stats are usually vastly different (18 Cha and 5 App or the inverse are not uncommon). :smallbiggrin:

[NeoSeraphi]

Shame that dinna carry over to 3.0 OA then. What was it used for exactly?

The Comeliness ability score was used to make an Infatuation check. Based on your Comeliness score, all creatures of the same type (humanoid, in most cases) and the opposite gender who interacted with you needed to make a d% roll. If they rolled under 2x your Comeliness score - their Wisdom score, they become intensely attracted to you for all roleplaying purposes and interactions.

(For example, if I had a Comeliness score of 20, and I met a girl with a Wisdom of 10, upon first seeing me she would make a d% roll, and if she rolled 20 or under, she became infatuated with me)

[NeoSeraphi]

We always roll for appearance in our games since charisma has nothing to do with how good (or bad) you look. And as the gods of balance would have it, the stats are usually vastly different (18 Cha and 5 App or the inverse are not uncommon). :smallbiggrin:

From the SRD:


Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

Emphasis mine.

[Keneth]

Emphasis mine. I wasn't talking about game rules. And it's considered a mental stat for a reason, polymorphing into a different creature has no effect on your charisma, ergo charisma has nothing to do with your appearance.

[Gullintanni]

From the SRD:

Emphasis mine.


I wasn't talking about game rules. And it's considered a mental stat for a reason, polymorphing into a different creature has no effect on your charisma, ergo charisma has nothing to do with your appearance.

As a technicality, Physical Attractiveness is, as NeoSeraphi pointed out, subsumed by your Charisma score. The easy fluff justification for not changing CHA when you polymorph is twofold.

First, Physical Attractiveness is the smallest part of the CHA score. A character can be beautiful with a CHA score of 6, but have a horribly off putting personality.

Second, when you polymorph, you take the form of a creature who is as physically attractive among it's kind as you are to yours. So you have a 16 CHA...you polymorph into a dragon, and relative to dragons, your CHA is still 16, even though you're probably less physically attractive to humanoids. It's all relative.

That said, Charisma isn't treated at all like a physical score, even though it has a minor physical component, and as a result, the physical component probably SHOULD be separated off into a separate category. But overall, D&D doesn't really care how physically attractive you are. The system's simply not designed for it, so including it as a component of the CHA score doesn't really present any gameplay issues.

[NeoSeraphi]

Second, when you polymorph, you take the form of a creature who is as physically attractive among it's kind as you are to yours. So you have a 16 CHA...you polymorph into a dragon, and relative to dragons, your CHA is still 16, even though you're probably less physically attractive to humanoids. It's all relative.

This is very elegantly explained, thank you.



That said, Charisma isn't treated at all like a physical score, even though it has a minor physical component, and as a result, the physical component probably SHOULD be separated off into a separate category.

True. After all, you don't get more physically attractive as you age. (Middle Age is debatable, but I definitely don't find a 70 year old human female more attractive than she was when she was 25)

[Keneth]

Second, when you polymorph, you take the form of a creature who is as physically attractive among it's kind as you are to yours. So you have a 16 CHA...you polymorph into a dragon, and relative to dragons, your CHA is still 16, even though you're probably less physically attractive to humanoids. It's all relative. This is the most common rationalization but the fact of the matter is that polymorphing isn't really such a fine art that you could influence your personal appearance (unless you want to advocate that it comes naturally).

But yes, by default physical attractiveness is subsumed into the charisma score, which is fine as far as D&D is concerned because the way you look is generally irrelevant in the game (unless the DM wants to specifically target that aspect of your character). We do it mostly for fun because it adds another layer of roleplaying, it rarely affects anything, although sometimes being pretty when you miserably fail a diplomacy check does come in handy. :smallbiggrin:

[Gullintanni]

This is the most common rationalization but the fact of the matter is that polymorphing isn't really such a fine art that you could influence your personal appearance (unless you want to advocate that it comes naturally).

Bolded for emphasis. This is how I'd probably run it. You're not intentionally polymorphing yourself to look like a CHA 16 dragon, it just happens that way as the spell reshapes you into the closest analog of yourself among your new polymorphed forms species.


But yes, by default physical attractiveness is subsumed into the charisma score, which is fine as far as D&D is concerned because the way you look is generally irrelevant in the game (unless the DM wants to specifically target that aspect of your character). We do it mostly for fun because it adds another layer of roleplaying, it rarely affects anything, although sometimes being pretty when you miserably fail a diplomacy check does come in handy. :smallbiggrin:

I agree with this. Physical attractiveness in D&D is more a rule of fun thing. :smallsmile:

[Morph Bark]

The Comeliness ability score was used to make an Infatuation check. Based on your Comeliness score, all creatures of the same type (humanoid, in most cases) and the opposite gender who interacted with you needed to make a d% roll. If they rolled under 2x your Comeliness score - their Wisdom score, they become intensely attracted to you for all roleplaying purposes and interactions.

(For example, if I had a Comeliness score of 20, and I met a girl with a Wisdom of 10, upon first seeing me she would make a d% roll, and if she rolled 20 or under, she became infatuated with me)

Would you double both your Comeliness and their Wisdom, or only your Comeliness?

Mathematically, would the formula be 2x([your Comeliness] - [their Wisdom]) or 2x[your Comeliness] - [their Wisdom]?


Second, when you polymorph, you take the form of a creature who is as physically attractive among it's kind as you are to yours. So you have a 16 CHA...you polymorph into a dragon, and relative to dragons, your CHA is still 16, even though you're probably less physically attractive to humanoids. It's all relative.

Would you say that, if you use Comeliness/Appearance, you'd add [your C/A - 10] to the C/A of the creature you polymorph into, to reflect the relatively greater prettiness you have with regards to any other creature of the kind whose form you currently have?


True. After all, you don't get more physically attractive as you age. (Middle Age is debatable, but I definitely don't find a 70 year old human female more attractive than she was when she was 25)

The -1 penalty for middle age doesn't lower the modifier half the time is why. :smallwink:

[The Dark Fiddler]

...and relative to dragons, your CHA is still 16, even though you're probably less physically attractive to humanoids.

I dunno, all those half-dragons have to come from somewhere...


This is the most common rationalization but the fact of the matter is that polymorphing isn't really such a fine art that you could influence your personal appearance (unless you want to advocate that it comes naturally).

Really? Because that seems like just the thing a skilled transmuter would be able to do. Where's it say that? :smallconfused:

[NeoSeraphi]

Would you double both your Comeliness and their Wisdom, or only your Comeliness?

Mathematically, would the formula be 2x([your Comeliness] - [their Wisdom]) or 2x[your Comeliness] - [their Wisdom]?


No, you don't double their Wisdom. Look

I have a Comeliness of 20. She has a Wisdom of 10...wait...lol my bad!

So it would be 40-10, which would be 30. She'd have to roll under 30 to be enchanted, not 20. That's why you were confused. *hits self in the head*

[Gullintanni]

Would you double both your Comeliness and their Wisdom, or only your Comeliness?

Mathematically, would the formula be 2x([your Comeliness] - [their Wisdom]) or 2x[your Comeliness] - [their Wisdom]?

Would you say that, if you use Comeliness/Appearance, you'd add [your C/A - 10] to the C/A of the creature you polymorph into, to reflect the relatively greater prettiness you have with regards to any other creature of the kind whose form you currently have?

The latter equation I believe. As for adjudicating C/A well...I don't really use either stat. I'd probably just give a penalty for dealing with creatures not of your race, and when you're polymorphed you qualify as the race of whatever you polymorph into. Perhaps you'd only get 1.5x[your Comeliness] - [their Wisdom] against non-consistent species.


I dunno, all those half-dragons have to come from somewhere...


Yes, possibly an unfortunate racial choice, I do admit, but this is D&D where all adventurers are racist and evidently a few have very liberal ideas about inter-species erotica. :smalltongue:

[prufock]

You could include Leadership score in this group as well.

Didn't 2nd edition AD&D actually have 2 "subscores" for each ability? IE Charisma was Persuasiveness and Attractiveness (or something like that). You could trade off up to 2 points. So for instance if your Cha was 12, you could have 10 persuasiveness and 14 attractiveness. Can't really remember what each subscore was called.

[Morph Bark]

No, you don't double their Wisdom. Look

I have a Comeliness of 20. She has a Wisdom of 10...wait...lol my bad!

So it would be 40-10, which would be 30. She'd have to roll under 30 to be enchanted, not 20. That's why you were confused. *hits self in the head*

Yes. Yes, that is why. :smalltongue:


I dunno, all those half-dragons have to come from somewhere...

The Half-Dragons exist because all Dragons have a relatively high C/A, so the cross-species penalty does not matter. :smallwink:


You could include Leadership score in this group as well.

Didn't 2nd edition AD&D actually have 2 "subscores" for each ability? IE Charisma was Persuasiveness and Attractiveness (or something like that). You could trade off up to 2 points. So for instance if your Cha was 12, you could have 10 persuasiveness and 14 attractiveness. Can't really remember what each subscore was called.

Leadership is a good point.

And did it? I've never played anything pre-3.5 (though I use some 3.0 materials), so I dunno.

[lorddrake]

Second, when you polymorph, you take the form of a creature who is as physically attractive among it's kind as you are to yours. So you have a 16 CHA...you polymorph into a dragon, and relative to dragons, your CHA is still 16, even though you're probably less physically attractive to humanoids. It's all relative.


Yes. Everybody is in love with that neat sorcerer who happens to be a demilich. Yummy!

[NeoSeraphi]

Yes. Everybody is in love with that neat sorcerer who happens to be a demilich. Yummy!

That is the difference between the demilich wizard and the demilich sorcerer. The demilich sorcerer makes it look good. :smallcool:

[Gullintanni]

The Half-Dragons exist because all Dragons have a relatively high C/A, so the cross-species penalty does not matter. :smallwink:



That is the difference between the demilich wizard and the demilich sorcerer. The demilich sorcerer makes it look good. :smallcool:

And thus the Dracolich was born? :smalltongue:

[Diefje]

I love how "Physical Attractiveness" immediately becomes "Bangability". Makes you think you should maybe introduce a "Standards" score.

"What's your CHA? Oh well lucky for you, I have low STA"

[MukkTB]

By RAW its a combination mental stat + physical stat. Our group feels that's stupid and house ruled it only mental. Depending on the DM we either use a comeliness role or just declare what our characters look like using descriptors without value judgement.

For example a human might be described as :5'7", 170 LBS, Brown Eyes, Short Hair, Average Sized Nose, Large Chin.

But back on subject by RAW a 65 year old woman is more physically attractive than a 25 year old. By RAW your looks contribute to your ability to cast magic. That kind of magic won't even work for ugly people. By RAW a good looking person is more intimidating than a bad #############. By RAW granny is more intimidating than a bad #############. Its not enough to be a good person. If you want the gods to rain healing on you you need to look good. Maybe there's a sign at the paladin recruitment office. 'NO FAT CHICKS OR UGLY DUDES.'

[Keneth]

Really? Because that seems like just the thing a skilled transmuter would be able to do. Where's it say that? :smallconfused: Well barring some specific exceptions (I'm sure there are some, I'm not a huge fan of transmutation school), the polymorph line is based off of alter self which has a specific limitation:

You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form's race.
Emphasis mine. Yes, you do get to fiddle around with general details but it's not a precise art like painting a picture, that's what disguise is for.

[Mnemnosyne]

On the subabilities from 2nd Edition comments, they were introduced in Player's Option: Skills & Powers, and every ability had them. They split various things about each score. You would wind up with your base score, and the two sub-scores, which you could adjust by removing up to two points from one sub-score and adding them to its opposite.

Strength was divided into Stamina and Muscle, the former of which determined your weight allowance and the latter of which determined everything else (attack, damage, how much you could lift for a brief moment, and your open doors and bend bars/lift gates chances).

Dexterity was divided into Aim and Balance, with Aim determining THAC0 adjustment for missile weapons and supplying a pick pockets and open locks modifier, while balance supplied your reaction adjustment (aka, initiative modifier), AC adjustment, and supplied a move silently and climb walls modifier.

Constitution was divided into Health and Fitness, with the former determining your system shock (something you rolled to see if you survived shocks to your system - like being polymorphed, for instance. Someone might polymorph you, and you fail the system shock roll and instantly die from the shock of having your body changed so radically.) and poison save, while Fitness determined your hit point adjustment and resurrection chance (even after someone casts resurrection, you have to roll to see if it works or not).

Intelligence was divided into Reason and Knowledge. Reason determined the maximum level of spells you could cast, as well as how many spells of each level you could scribe into your book, as well as what level of illusion spells you're simply immune to (anyone with an int(reason) of 19 or more is simply immune to 1st level illusions, for instance). Knowledge determined your bonus proficiencies and your chance to learn a spell when you tried to scribe it into your book.

Wisdom was divided into Intuition and Willpower. Intuition determined a priest's bonus spells and chance for spell failure (a priest with 12 wis(intuition) or less had a 5% chance of any spell simply failing when cast, while 13 or higher always indicated at least one bonus spell of 1st level or higher). Willpower determined magical defense adjustment, which was basically a saving throw bonus/penalty to mind-affecting spells, and spell immunity, which granted complete immunity to a specific list of spells if you have wisdom of 19 or more.

Finally, Charisma, as previously noted, was divided into Leadership and Appearance. Leadership determined the base loyalty of your henchmen and the maximum number of them (2nd Edition had specific morale rules to determine when NPC's would turn and flee, and increased loyalty would make them less likely to do this) while Appearance determined reaction adjustment, which was basically an adjustment to the initial attitude of anything you encounter.

[Novawurmson]

I guess beauty is in the eye of the COPYRIGHTED CONTENT REMOVED (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/designdev_beholder3.jpg).

[Zale]

The substat thing sound interesting.

I wonder how that would play.

[Morph Bark]

I looked through my Heroes of Battle and found the Commander Rating. SCORE! :smallbiggrin:

I also looked through my Fiendish Codex I again and could not find the chaotic equivalent of Obeisance. Not score. :smallfrown:

Anyone else got more scores?