LGBTAitp - Part Eighteen!

[KenderWizard]

Hi everyone! And welcome to the all-grown-up excellent eighteenth incarnation of the LGBTAitp thread!

This is a thread where we Playgrounders, and LGBTAitp in particular, gather to discuss, share our experiences, give general advice and support one another in such matters as arise relating to, well, the world beyond heteronormativity.

Please note that although the title of the thread names only the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Asexual communities, it is intended as an all inclusive environment.


Everyone is welcome. Let's try to keep from seeming otherwise.
Keep this topic free of politics and religion. (so, don't violate the board rules, plz)
It's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss whether LGBT is "Right." (And really, most discussions probably should avoid moralizing too much anyway)
Please refrain from posting sexually explicit content. (Keep it friendly as well as board safe :smallsmile:)

If you would rather be anonymous when asking for advice or sharing your story or views, you can use the address below to send a message to be posted in this thread via proxy.

http://anonmail.smeenet.org/

Keep in mind that content which contain strong language may be filtered (Plus, y'know, the forum-filters), and content that violates the forum rules won't be posted at all.

Here are the links for the previous threads, where much of use or interest may be found:
LGBT people in the playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62225)

LGBT people in the playground - part II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86066)

LGBTitp - part III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5663140#post5663140)

LGBTitp 4: We are a family? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129235)

LGBTitp - Part Five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143424)

LGBTitp - Part Six (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147832)

LGBTitp - Part Seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157312)

LGBTitp - Part Eight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167395)

LGBTitp - Part Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172747)

LGBTAitp - Part Ten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177253)

LGBTAitp - Part Eleven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181683)

LGBTAitp - Part Twelve (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10335967#)

LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192714)

LGBTAitp - Part Fourteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200329)

LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207987)

LGBTAitp - Part Sixteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11820872#)

LGBTAitp - Part Seventeen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219966)




And, for reference, here is the Thousand&Wordster Dictionary of Commonly Used LGBTAitp Words and Phrases

Lagerbeta: A fine brewski to be drunk by queers and allies.
LGBT: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans*
Trans*: Transsexual and Transgender
LGBTA: LGBT+Asexual/Allies
QUILTBAG: Q - Queer and Questioning
U - Unidentified
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay, Genderqueer
Allies: Straight people that support equality for sexuality and gender minorities.
MtF: Male-to-Female: A woman born with male nibblies, who may or may not be seeking HRT and/or SRS. (AKA: trans woman)
FtM: Female-to-Male: A man born with female nibblies, who may or may not be seeking HRT and/or SRS. (AKA: trans man)
GQ: Genderqueer.
CS: Cis-sexual: sex and gender match (a male with male nibblies, a female with female nibblies.
TS: Transsexual: Sex and gender disparity.
HRT: Hormone replacement therapy. MtF's take more progestrogens and oestrogens and FtM's take more testosterone (I think?)
SRS: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Surgery to replace/transform a vagina into a penis, or vice versa depending on direction. Mastectomies or plastic surgery may be used on breasts.
FFS: Facial Feminization Surgery: Plastic surgery to reduce chin/nose/cheekbones. Not very common.

Man: A cisman or transman. Male.
Woman: A ciswoman or transwoman. Female.
Androgyne: Gender Identity with male and female aspects.
Genderfluid: Someone who fluctuates between male and female.
Agendered: Someone who feels neither male nor female.
Third-gendered: Someone who fits in a local society's third gender, usually male performing female tasks, occasionally vice versa.
Masculine: Something generally associated with men.
Feminine: Something generally associated with women.

Lesbian: A woman who is attracted to women.
Gay: A man who is attracted to men.
Homosexual: A person who is attracted to members of their gender.
Heterosexual: A person who is attracted to members of the opposite gender.
Bisexual: A person who is attracted to both male and female people.
Pansexual: A person who is attracted to people regardless of gender.
Asexual: A person who does not feel any/some sexual attraction.
Demisexual: A person who is only sexually attracted to someone(s) they have formed an intense emotional relationship with.
Androsexual: A person (of any gender identity) who is sexually attracted to the male-bodied form.
Gynosexual: A person (of any gender identity) who is sexually attracted to the female-bodied form
Polyamorous: A person who is interested in a relationship with more than one person.
Radosexual: A person who is only attracted to rad people.
Pomosexual: A person who avoids SO labels.

Sexual Orientation: How one identifies who they are attracted to. (SO)
Gender Identity: How one feels inside society's idea of "man, woman, or other". (GI)
Gender Expression: How one expresses their GI to society. (GE)
Significant Other(s): Person you are in a relationship with. (SO)

[Nix Nihila]

New thread!

Thanks everyone for the hugs and well-wishes (and lollipops). And I always fancied myself as a spy when I was little, so that's a fun way to look at it too! Neither LGBT stuff nor religious stuff has been brought up in my visit so far, so I'm not in a fountain of hate exactly, but it's still pretty awful to present as male.


*hugs*

I hope you get through it without too much suckiness. :smallfrown:

Slightly off-topic: I know you've had your new avi for a while, but just wanted to say that it's really rad. :smallsmile:


Thanks! I'm rather fond of it too.

[The Succubus]

"LGBTAitp Eighteen: We're legally allowed to now!" :smalltongue:

...or some other reference to the age of consent. :smallwink:

EDIT: Huh, never came across the term "Pomosexual" until I checked the dictionary above. Is it something to do with Australians that are attracted to us British types? :smallwink:

[Al'izh'dheg]

New thread!

Thanks everyone for the hugs and well-wishes (and lollipops). And I always fancied myself as a spy when I was little, so that's a fun way to look at it too! Neither LGBT stuff nor religious stuff has been brought up in my visit so far, so I'm not in a fountain of hate exactly, but it's still pretty awful to present as male.



Thanks! I'm rather fond of it too.

Heya Nix, good to hear. I'm glad it's not turning out *quite* as bad as you were thinking. I also hope you had a good dinner last night. :)

Edit: I forgot to thank you for posting. I've been worried about you as Thanksgiving approached.

[Asta Kask]

LGBTA Eighteen - no longer jailbait!

Those of you in non-English countries - what is the local equivalent of LGBTA?

In Sweden it's HBT (Homo-, Bi-, Transsexuality). Asexuals haven't been discovered over here. :smallsmile:

[KenderWizard]

"LGBTAitp Eighteen: We're legally allowed to now!" :smalltongue:

...or some other reference to the age of consent. :smallwink:



LGBTA Eighteen - no longer jailbait!


I was thinking of it, but I didn't want to be all about the sex. Also, age of consent is different in different places, so that'd be a bit weird. (We've been legal for a whole thread as far as I'm concerned! :smallwink:) I did say in the welcome line that we're all-grown-up! :smallsmile:

[Mina Kobold]

What about a thread name having to do with voting? Or golf!

Rainbow golf!

I also forgot to do something last thread, sorry.

*Glomps Nix Nihila*

:smallsmile:

[Qaera]

EDIT: Huh, never came across the term "Pomosexual" until I checked the dictionary above. Is it something to do with Australians that are attracted to us British types? :smallwink:

It's kind of a joke, for me at least. The Pomo stands for "postmodern" so it's like, moving beyond sexuality labels. I think of it kind of like pansexuals, like you're attracted to who you're attracted to and the rest doesn't really matter.

I'm kind of surprised that my list got there. :smallredface:

~ ♅

[Astrella]

LGBTA Eighteen - no longer jailbait!

Those of you in non-English countries - what is the local equivalent of LGBTA?

In Sweden it's HBT (Homo-, Bi-, Transsexuality). Asexuals haven't been discovered over here. :smallsmile:

Holebi around here. (Which stands for "Homo, lesbisch of biseksueel." Trans* isn't included; though transgender is the all-encompassing term for it around here.)



I'm kind of surprised that my list got there. :smallredface:

List is handy.

Also, *glomps*.

[bluewind95]

I like "LGBTAitp Eighteen: We're legally allowed to now!" because it kind of references not only age of consent, but the fact this thread was made a little earlier than usual. We're legally allowed to that now :smalltongue:.

[KenderWizard]

It's kind of a joke, for me at least. The Pomo stands for "postmodern" so it's like, moving beyond sexuality labels. I think of it kind of like pansexuals, like you're attracted to who you're attracted to and the rest doesn't really matter.

I'm kind of surprised that my list got there. :smallredface:

~ ♅

It's really useful and you clearly put some effort into it! :smallsmile:

If anyone has anything they want to add to it, by the way, let me know!

Also, I really like holebi!

[noparlpf]

"LGBTAitp Eighteen: We're legally allowed to now!" :smalltongue:

...or some other reference to the age of consent. :smallwink:

I'm going to school in Massachusetts, so the age of consent is sixteen. I'm also used to Connecticut laws, and it's also sixteen there. (Though according to my twelfth-grade CT law class, there's no age of consent for males...I'm not sure how accurate that is.)

[Al'izh'dheg]

LGBTA Eighteen - no longer jailbait!

Those of you in non-English countries - what is the local equivalent of LGBTA?

In Sweden it's HBT (Homo-, Bi-, Transsexuality). Asexuals haven't been discovered over here. :smallsmile:

I've been meaning to ask about asexuality. It seems like I've seen it used in two different contexts. One seems to be an indication of a lack of sexual desire/drive. This definition doesn't seem to preclude romance, but describes a lack of wanting to take that romance to the sexual realm of touching, etc.

The other definition seems to instead refer not to orientation but to gender identity. This reference seems to indicate they do not identify themselves as male or female, but either something in between (something I would call gender-fluid), or that they are "gender blind". Gender just doesn't matter to them at all.

Which of these definitions is the "correct" one, and what is the other really called? Or are they both correct and you're supposed to figure out which one through context?

[noparlpf]

I've been meaning to ask about asexuality. It seems like I've seen it used in two different contexts. One seems to be an indication of a lack of sexual desire/drive. This definition doesn't seem to preclude romance, but describes a lack of wanting to take that romance to the sexual realm of touching, etc.

The other definition seems to instead refer not to orientation but to gender identity. This reference seems to indicate they do not identify themselves as male or female, but either something in between (something I would call gender-fluid), or that they are "gender blind". Gender just doesn't matter to them at all.

Which of these definitions is the "correct" one, and what is the other really called? Or are they both correct and you're supposed to figure out which one through context?

When I say that I'm asexual, I mean that I don't have a sex drive, but I do have a gender identity; I am cis-male. I usually hear "agendered" used to refer to "gender-blind" people.

[Mina Kobold]

I've been meaning to ask about asexuality. It seems like I've seen it used in two different contexts. One seems to be an indication of a lack of sexual desire/drive. This definition doesn't seem to preclude romance, but describes a lack of wanting to take that romance to the sexual realm of touching, etc.

The other definition seems to instead refer not to orientation but to gender identity. This reference seems to indicate they do not identify themselves as male or female, but either something in between (something I would call gender-fluid), or that they are "gender blind". Gender just doesn't matter to them at all.

Which of these definitions is the "correct" one, and what is the other really called? Or are they both correct and you're supposed to figure out which one through context?

Never heard anyone use asexual as anything but a lack of sexual interest or desire. I personally would use agendered or gender-queer to describe the gender variety, but I am no expert on orientational semantics.

Do take my experience with a grain of apeppered salt, though. I have met few in the physical world who even know what asexuality is. :smallsmile:

[KenderWizard]

I don't think I've come across asexual to mean "gender blind". I would always think of it as "not interested in sexual relations" or "of no sexual orientation".

[Anethiel]

My magical redirect link (http://dpcris85.altervista.org/lgbtaitp) to the latest post of the latest LGBTAitP thread has been updated. (By the way, it's also available through the banner in my signature).

Also, fresh and awesome news: starting today, gay couples living in the city of Naples (Italy) can register their civil union. :smallsmile:
Italy currently has no nation-wide recognition of same-sex unions, but they will have the same rights of married couples for everything pertaining to the municipal administration (eg. municipal housing). They also will be able to obtain a "family status" document from the municipality, stating that they are a registered family.
Naples is the third large city to introduce this type of recognition, after Turin and Milan. I'm extra happy for this because I live in a town near Naples and, if everything goes smooth, I should move to the city itself by the next 6 months. :smallbiggrin:

[SMEE]

I find myself very confused. In real life, I'm pretty "normal". I'm attracted to girls, and I know what I like when I see it. It's my fantasy life that confuses me. Namely the parts where I fantasize about a heterosexual encounter, except that I'm the girl. My fantasies aren't exclusively that, but the fact that those exist at all confuses me. Normal? Slightly odd? Thoughts?

This is just in at the anonmail.

[Mono Vertigo]

In response to the anonmail:
Before all, if you describe it as a fantasy, then it is just that, a fantasy. A sort of fetish that is extremely unlikely happen, but still is pleasing to imagine. Much like dreams, it doesn't have to mean anything deep about yourself. It doesn't have to mean you actually are a girl.
Now, if you imagine yourself as a girl in other contexts or find yourself regretting your body is not that of a girl, then it may be worth investigating further.
Alone, though, fantasies that don't leave the realm of your mind... not very concerning.
Hope it helps.

[Yora]

I regard such a thing as being part of me being of androgyne gender. I think sexual reproduction with individuals specialized for parts of mating was one of the big mistakes of evolution.
We should all have been like snails. Anyone with anyone, it's a match!

As I see it, even with all our openness regarding gender, the dynamics of relationships, especially romanic ones, are influenced by gender. You can't just transfer a specific scenario to other people who would be a different combination of genders. And if a specific situation seems appealing to you, it might just not work with your in your own sex.

If it is an indicator for (but not proof!) for a possible genderqueer identity, I don't know. For me it is, and I only realized that when I was 23.


LGBTA Eighteen - no longer jailbait!

Those of you in non-English countries - what is the local equivalent of LGBTA?
We are germans, we are cooler! We don't translate new words.

Or we are so lame, that when completely lack vital concepts and out of sheer frustration sometimes have to resolve to use whatever english had to offer. I'm not sure.

[Triscuitable]

New thread!

Thanks everyone for the hugs and well-wishes (and lollipops). And I always fancied myself as a spy when I was little, so that's a fun way to look at it too! Neither LGBT stuff nor religious stuff has been brought up in my visit so far, so I'm not in a fountain of hate exactly, but it's still pretty awful to present as male.



Thanks! I'm rather fond of it too.

I'd forgotten to mention how much your avatar has picked up in awesomeness!

[Heliomance]

I also assumed that pomosexual meant attraction to Brits :P

And you're still missing andro/gynosexual.

[Yora]

So pomosexual is what hipsters are?

[noparlpf]

So pomosexual is what hipsters are?

I think it means people who are attracted to hipsters.

[Lanaya]

Anonmail: How about that. I was just about to ask the exact same thing, except my fantasies are exclusively about being the girl. Even if I force myself to fantasise about the male perspective, it just doesn't do it for me at all. No idea if there's any kind of cause behind it or fancy name to use, but at least you're not alone. :smallsmile:

[H Birchgrove]

@ A bit confused: I wish I could help you there, but I think the other posters have said what can be said on the topic.

<.<

>.>

I have imagined how it would be like to be female, but while it would be interesting in many regards, the moment I remember how much I resemble my sister even as a male, I shudder and stop thinking about it. When I've thought about it in terms of a story with an Author Avatar, it's solved with the Wizard/Cleric character using illusions or something to make me look like a blonde or Asian or...

:miko: "What is this I don't even and who are those Asians you keep talking about?"

... anyway, after some time the Wizard/Cleric removes curse spell on the Belt of Changing Gender and it's back to status quo. :smallredface:

I suppose this could serve as a warming up for what I planned to post.

Even before I posted the link to the crappy article short text about and the photo gallery with the gorgeous Japanese (trans)woman, I've realised that I feel attraction toward pre-op transwomen. Not as much as ciswomen or post-op transwomen, perhaps, but definately as much as toward cismen. I wouldn't mind being with a transman, but I don't think about transmen as much, I've to confess.

But for some reason, I feel ashamed of it. :smallfrown: I don't feel this ashamed of being bi (unless I consider my family's hypothetical reactions to coming out of the closet, though that is less about being ashamed and more about being worried). Maybe I'm worried that transpersons would be disturbed that I or any other cisperson would feel attraction when they still have the "wrong" parts. Because this I admit: I wouldn't mind having sex with a woman with male genitals or a man with female ones. (I've also watched porn with transwomen, and I *liked* it despite the idiotic use of the slang term that I'll avoid if possible. At least they got pronouns right.) But if the hypotethical girlfriend or boyfriend wanted to go through Sex Reassignment Surgery, I would support her or him all the way and beyond.

Please comment.

[KenderWizard]

I also assumed that pomosexual meant attraction to Brits :P

And you're still missing andro/gynosexual.

Can you make definitions for them and I'll pop them in?


@H Birchgrove: I always think you can't really help what you find attractive in a person, and I don't see anything there that you should be ashamed about. You seem to be open and accepting, and I don't think someone could ask more from you than that. Then, I'm not trans+, so there could be things I don't pick up on.

[Coidzor]

Can you make definitions for them and I'll pop them in?

Bam? :smallconfused:

androsexual - sexually attracted to the male-bodied form.

gynosexual - sexually attracted to the female-bodied form.

[golentan]

Hey, new thread. For the Awesome!

[Yora]

Well, it's a complicated issue, which I've always been thinking a lot about.

Attraction to trans-people is a difficult thing. On the one hand, you could just ignore it. But that would be like denying the fact that they are able and have the right to have a sexual life as well. Or you admit your attraction and then you are getting turned on by a condition that causes the people who are affected by it considerable suffering and harship.
Shying away from transsexuality is unfair, being open to it exploits transsexuals. Either way, you could feel bad.

I think for myself, I have come to the solution to think "I find these people attractive, but I would do so if they were not transsexual as well". Once again, pansexuality comes to the rescue.

I also have to admit, that I am very open to sexual relationships with trans-people, but the thought of sexual reasignment surgery makes me feel uncomfortable.I know I should support it and should feel happy for the people who finally can feel a bit more normal than they used to, but I think it would be something really difficult for me to handle.

[Knaight]

Attraction to trans-people is a difficult thing. On the one hand, you could just ignore it. But that would be like denying the fact that they are able and have the right to have a sexual life as well. Or you admit your attraction and then you are getting turned on by a condition that causes the people who are affected by it considerable suffering and harship.
Shying away from transsexuality is unfair, being open to it exploits transsexuals. Either way, you could feel bad.

I think for myself, I have come to the solution to think "I find these people attractive, but I would do so if they were not transsexual as well". Once again, pansexuality comes to the rescue.

I wouldn't say that being attracted to trans-people is exploitative. It isn't the condition that people are attracted to, it is the person, and that is no different than any other attraction. Though, being asexual myself, I can't really comment past that.

[golentan]

Well, it's a complicated issue, which I've always been thinking a lot about.

Attraction to trans-people is a difficult thing. On the one hand, you could just ignore it. But that would be like denying the fact that they are able and have the right to have a sexual life as well. Or you admit your attraction and then you are getting turned on by a condition that causes the people who are affected by it considerable suffering and harship.
Shying away from transsexuality is unfair, being open to it exploits transsexuals. Either way, you could feel bad.

I think for myself, I have come to the solution to think "I find these people attractive, but I would do so if they were not transsexual as well". Once again, pansexuality comes to the rescue.

I also have to admit, that I am very open to sexual relationships with trans-people, but the thought of sexual reasignment surgery makes me feel uncomfortable.I know I should support it and should feel happy for the people who finally can feel a bit more normal than they used to, but I think it would be something really difficult for me to handle.

Agreeing with Knaight. It's not exploitation to find someone attractive: that's like saying that being attracted to women is exploitative because society is sexist and so being a woman gives them problems.

[Coidzor]

I wouldn't say exploitative, but it definitely can be treated in such a way as to be uncomfortably close to fetishization of the condition. How commonly it is, I couldn't say, but I hope it's rather low.


I also have to admit, that I am very open to sexual relationships with trans-people, but the thought of sexual reasignment surgery makes me feel uncomfortable.I know I should support it and should feel happy for the people who finally can feel a bit more normal than they used to, but I think it would be something really difficult for me to handle.

I don't think anyone expects others to think it's all sunshine and daisies. Especially for those who are comfortable with their male parts, emasculation is one of those culturally ground in dreads that goes pretty deep. But surgery is generally best not dwelt upon in general, especially if it's not one's own.


I wouldn't mind being with a transman, but I don't think about transmen as much, I've to confess.

Not many do, they are kind of a forgotten people at times.


But for some reason, I feel ashamed of it. :smallfrown:

I'm sorry to hear that. It's definitely not anything to be ashamed of though.


Maybe I'm worried that transpersons would be disturbed that I or any other cisperson would feel attraction when they still have the "wrong" parts.

Well, I can't speak for others, but, from what I've gathered, most of them who are the type that'd be receptive to anything have tended to have reactions that were more similar to being flattered than disturbed or offended. In my limited experience and imperfect memory of things people have said in this thread.

[Nix Nihila]

Heya Nix, good to hear. I'm glad it's not turning out *quite* as bad as you were thinking. I also hope you had a good dinner last night. :)

Edit: I forgot to thank you for posting. I've been worried about you as Thanksgiving approached.

:smallredface: Thanks for keeping me in your thoughts. I did end up having a delicious meal in spite of my discomfort.


What about a thread name having to do with voting? Or golf!

Rainbow golf!

I also forgot to do something last thread, sorry.

*Glomps Nix Nihila*

:smallsmile:

*squeezes back tightly* Thanks! :smallsmile:


I'd forgotten to mention how much your avatar has picked up in awesomeness!

Thank you! I do feel that it's more me than either of my previous avatars (even though I loved them both).

[bluewind95]

I'm glad you had a yummy dinner, Nix. I've been quietly sitting in the corner and giving you best wishes.

[turkishproverb]

"LGBTAitp Eighteen: We're legally allowed to now!" :smalltongue:

...or some other reference to the age of consent. :smallwink:


...

Don't explain the Joke. :smallyuk:

[Triscuitable]

...

Don't explain the Joke. :smallyuk:

We will explain every joke. For we are... Steve.

[Yora]

I wouldn't say exploitative, but it definitely can be treated in such a way as to be uncomfortably close to fetishization of the condition. How commonly it is, I couldn't say, but I hope it's rather low.
Okay, wrong word. Me fail english, but you get the idea. :smallbiggrin:

[Knaight]

Okay, wrong word. Me fail english, but you get the idea. :smallbiggrin:

Even then, that almost certainly isn't the typical situation. People tend to be attracted to other people, not to a body with an aesthetic associated with one gender which is attached to genitals associated with the other. That is similar to being attracted to the general concept of "cisgendered (fe)male", theoretically possible but unlikely.

[Heliomance]

Not many do, they are kind of a forgotten people at times.

Of the 4 or so trans people I know, one of them is FtM. It's now got to the point where I can't think of him as anything other than a guy, and when I occasionally remember "Oh yeah, he used to be Emma, didn't he," it comes as a surprise. The MtFs I know, I still have to sometimes conciously remember to use female pronouns, and they aren't automatically filed as "female" in my brain.


Even then, that almost certainly isn't the typical situation. People tend to be attracted to other people, not to a body with an aesthetic associated with one gender which is attached to genitals associated with the other. That is similar to being attracted to the general concept of "cisgendered (fe)male", theoretically possible but unlikely.

...actually, I'd say that being attracted to cisgendered (fe)males is the "norm". :smallconfused:

[Knaight]

...actually, I'd say that being attracted to cisgendered (fe)males is the "norm". :smallconfused:

Being attracted to individuals who are cisgendered (fe)males is the norm. Being attracted to the very concept of the body of a cisgendered (fe)male where the individual isn't even considered isn't.

[Heliomance]

How do you explain the popularity of porn then? I guarantee you that the vast majority of people watching porn aren't considering the individuals involved.

[Knaight]

How do you explain the popularity of porn then? I guarantee you that the vast majority of people watching porn aren't considering the individuals involved.

The porn still presents images of individuals, and as I understand it, it is conventional for them to at least have something of a personality attached. At the very least, there are actual concrete appearances, and not just abstract concepts thereof, which is the distinction I've been making from the beginning.

[Mina Kobold]

Even then, that almost certainly isn't the typical situation. People tend to be attracted to other people, not to a body with an aesthetic associated with one gender which is attached to genitals associated with the other. That is similar to being attracted to the general concept of "cisgendered (fe)male", theoretically possible but unlikely.

I think the point of worry is what it is about them that they are attracted to.

I am no expert on sexual attraction, being asexual as well, but I presume that genitalia, physiology and gender cues are part of it for most sexual people. Otherwise I am not sure how one could be purely attracted to one sex. There probably are other reasons, but that one seems pretty important.

Considering that hypothesis, it would then be possible to be attracted to someone because of a physiological detail that causes them distress, be it the wrong genitalia or anything else. Which would probably register as an obscure variant of schadenfreude to the brain.

If that is correct, then I believe it is nothing to feel ashamed of in and of itself. Attraction is, after all, not something you* choose. What you do choose, is how you treat the people.
So just make sure everybody has a great time, and it won't matter why you find them attractive. :smallsmile:

*Using unspecific "You" here, I am not trying to imply that Knaight believes they can manipulate people's attractions. :smalltongue:

[Caustic Soda]

Those of you in non-English countries - what is the local equivalent of LGBTA?


The organization in Denmark is actually called LGBT Danmark. Probably becaause the Danish phrasing would have two Bs (Lesbiske, Bøsser, Biseksuelle & Transpersoner). Kinda boring, but there you have it.

[Al'izh'dheg]

The organization in Denmark is actually called LGBT Danmark. Probably becaause the Danish phrasing would have two Bs (Lesbiske, Bøsser, Biseksuelle & Transpersoner). Kinda boring, but there you have it.

I actually find it fascinating. :)

[H Birchgrove]

I actually find it fascinating. :)

I'm not an expert in Danish, but from what I've read in Humon Comics (Niels) by humon, bøsser can mean gun or gunman, which reminds me how "gunsel" used to mean gay male prostitute but changed meaning to gunman because readers and editors misunderstood the slang word when Dashiell Hammet used it in Maltese Falcon (which he counted on). Wiktionary agrees with me on the latter (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gunsel), Danes and Danish-speakers are free to correct me on the former.

[Yora]

From a linguistic standpoint, I find the acronym BDSM really elegant. Combining three two letter acronyms into one four letter one. I like that. :smallbiggrin:

[Mina Kobold]

The organization in Denmark is actually called LGBT Danmark. Probably becaause the Danish phrasing would have two Bs (Lesbiske, Bøsser, Biseksuelle & Transpersoner). Kinda boring, but there you have it.

I did not know we had a LGBT organisation, thank you for mentioning it. :smallsmile:

On the same note, both my classmates and G'Morgen Danmark (a sort-of news discussion show for those not in Copenhagen) used "transseksuelle", if I recall correctly, to describe transsexuals.

Not that that's the correct term, but it makes me wonder if we have an official word for it. Any idea if we do?

EDIT: "Bøsse" does indeed refer to certain guns, although I have not heard it used for gunmen, but only a certain category. :smallsmile:

[Lix Lorn]

We will explain every joke. For we are... Steve.
I don't get it...
...can you explain that? :smalltongue:

[Yora]

On the same note, both my classmates and G'Morgen Danmark (a sort-of news discussion show for those not in Copenhagen) used "transseksuelle", if I recall correctly, to describe transsexuals.

Not that that's the correct term, but it makes me wonder if we have an official word for it. Any idea if we do?

What's wrong with that? In German we have "transsexuelle", which is just the same except we didn't drop the X from our aplhabet as you silly scandinavians did. :smallbiggrin:

[Asta Kask]

What's wrong with that? In German we have "transsexuelle", which is just the same except we didn't drop the X from our aplhabet as you silly scandinavians did. :smallbiggrin:

Transsexuella or transpersoner in Swedish.

[Mina Kobold]

What's wrong with that? In German we have "transsexuelle", which is just the same except we didn't drop the X from our aplhabet as you silly scandinavians did. :smallbiggrin:

Well, having official words would probably make it easier for LGBTA peeps to meet, discuss and share experiences.

We have the X, it's just used at random. Sex is the same in Danish, for example. Trying to make sense of Danish is not the best idea.

[Al'izh'dheg]

Transsexuella or transpersoner in Swedish.

That's interesting. In Al'izh'dhegia "transsexualla" translates roughly to "person full of awesome". Go figure. :smallwink:

[Arachu]

:random interruption:

On the way to bed last night, I snagged my hair on something - when I checked I realized that it was my shoulder. :smallbiggrin:


Also, what happened in regards to the age of consent (and where did it happen)?

[Asta Kask]

Well, having official words would probably make it easier for LGBTA peeps to meet, discuss and share experiences.

We have the X, it's just used at random. Sex is the same in Danish, for example. Trying to make sense of Danish is not the best idea.

Swedish has kept the 'x' - probably because the Danish didn't. We did everything in our power to be different from the Danish a few centuries ago.

[H Birchgrove]

Thanks for the support, very much appreciated. I feel much better about myself now.


EDIT: "Bøsse" does indeed refer to certain guns, although I have not heard it used for gunmen, but only a certain category. :smallsmile:

Thanks for the clarification. :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

Of the 4 or so trans people I know, one of them is FtM. It's now got to the point where I can't think of him as anything other than a guy, and when I occasionally remember "Oh yeah, he used to be Emma, didn't he," it comes as a surprise. The MtFs I know, I still have to sometimes conciously remember to use female pronouns, and they aren't automatically filed as "female" in my brain.

*shrug* I've known, depending upon how you wanna define it, three or four people who either were or at one time thought they might be FtM, all of them had done modeling prior to openly broaching the topic and one of them was a girlfriend of mine. Worryingly-to-annoyingly in the greater context of such things, I'd carried or still carry a torch for each of them. Not as odd as the year where I managed to develop a gaydar and only manage to pursue women who were lesbians or bisexual and only dating women, but still...

If anything, it's rather hard to think of someone one has had intimate carnal relations with as the opposite sex from what one interacted with, especially during or after a longterm romantic and physical relationship.

But I wasn't talking about that kind of interpersonal connection so much as the general invisibility in the overall culture, where people can know MtFs exist but have never heard of or even considered the possibility of FtMs.

Though the whole passing thing and how even an FtM who can't completely pass is going to fall well within expected norms, generally anyway, to be able to go without real comment.


Even then, that almost certainly isn't the typical situation. People tend to be attracted to other people, not to a body with an aesthetic associated with one gender which is attached to genitals associated with the other. That is similar to being attracted to the general concept of "cisgendered (fe)male", theoretically possible but unlikely.

:smallconfused: People generally tend to be attracted to others based entirely on physical properties, that's why pansexuals and other similar individuals are the exception, rather than the norm, and have a tendency to be controversial. Interpersonal qualities and things like personality are more what determine compatibility and whether the possibility for a relationship exists.

And generally being attracted to metaphysical concepts is the purview of fetishization anyway, so that dovetails nicely. But one doesn't even have to be attracted to the metaphysics of it, per se, to have a fetishization of the bodies of transitioning or transitioned individuals. As said, I'm going to have to assume it's rather low, as this is to preserve my own good-will towards man.

[Lix Lorn]

That's interesting. In Al'izh'dhegia "transsexualla" translates roughly to "person full of awesome". Go figure. :smallwink:
Sounds accurate to me. :smalltongue:

[Triscuitable]

I don't get it...
...can you explain that? :smalltongue:

Steve can explain everything, for we are... Steve.

[golentan]

Urge... to make... innuendo... rising!

[Qaera]

I don't get it...
...can you explain that? :smalltongue:

Either YGOTAS or TLI:JTG, methinks.
Yu-Gi-Oh The Abridged Series
The Lonely Island: Just Two Guys (go have fun with your snake, Steve)

~ ♅

[golentan]

Can't fight it anymore.


That's interesting. In Al'izh'dhegia "transsexualla" translates roughly to "person full of awesome". Go figure. :smallwink:

Hello, I'm golentan, I'm awesome, and my girlfriend is a transsexualla.

[Yora]

Hahaha... :smallbiggrin:

[Triscuitable]

Either YGOTAS or TLI:JTG, methinks.
Yu-Gi-Oh The Abridged Series
The Lonely Island: Just Two Guys (go have fun with your snake, Steve)

~ ♅

STEVE WILL NOT FALL PREY TO SOME PETTY JOKE! But you're awfully well informed.

[Asta Kask]

Hello, I'm golentan, I'm awesome, and my girlfriend is a transsexualla.

'Transsexuella' would be plural.

[Yora]

Either YGOTAS or TLI:JTG, methinks.

Well, Steve is a ****. :smallbiggrin:

[golentan]

'Transsexuella' would be plural.

*shrug*

Details.

[KenderWizard]

Bam? :smallconfused:

androsexual - sexually attracted to the male-bodied form.

gynosexual - sexually attracted to the female-bodied form.

I'll add them. Bam?


:smallredface: Thanks for keeping me in your thoughts. I did end up having a delicious meal in spite of my discomfort.


I'm really glad you had a good meal! Also, I would like to join the Nix's Avatar FanClub. :smallsmile:


From a linguistic standpoint, I find the acronym BDSM really elegant. Combining three two letter acronyms into one four letter one. I like that. :smallbiggrin:

I've always really liked that too! It's so clever!

[Eldest]

Hey, new thread! That was fast.

[Qaera]

Well, Steve is a ****. :smallbiggrin:

Why did it bleep out "jerk"? ;P

~ ♅

[noparlpf]

Can't fight it anymore.



Hello, I'm golentan, I'm awesome, and my girlfriend is a transsexualla.

I actually laughed out loud. :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

I'll add them. Bam?

I dunno, sort of surprised they hadn't already been defined. <<; That and I figured there was a good chance that I'd draw some flak and find out why they hadn't been easily defined earlier.

[turkishproverb]

We will explain every joke. For we are... Steve.

Steve?

...

Wait...

Were you in a certain WOD larp?

[Triscuitable]

Why did it bleep out "jerk"? ;P

~ ♅

The Giant considers the word flaming. Steve finds this understandable, considering it can be used in aggravating context.


Steve?

...

Wait...

Were you in a certain WOD larp?

Steve was indeed in such a larp. Once. We do not remember the specifics, however. We apologize. However, your post does not portray Steve correctly, which dishonors us greatly. We have taking the liberty of "fix'd"-ing it for you.

[Asta Kask]

Why did it bleep out "jerk"? ;P

~ ♅

Check the etymology...

[Mina Kobold]

Check the etymology...

According to Merriam Webster, it most likely originated as a variant of Yerk, which in turn was just a Middle-English word meaning "to bind tightly".

I am not sure what is so objectionable about tying something up, unless there is a rule against discussing BDSM. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

I am not sure what is so objectionable about tying something up, unless there is a rule against discussing BDSM. :smalltongue:

Um, yeah. Anything sexually explicit is verboten.

[Mina Kobold]

Um, yeah. Anything sexually explicit is verboten.

Well aware, I was merely joking about the discussion that had just been on the acronym. Sorry for the confusion. :smallsmile:

Besides, we're in a thread about sexuality, I think we could figure out how to discuss it without going into that. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

Besides, we're in a thread about sexuality, I think we could figure out how to discuss it without going into that. :smalltongue:

*shrug* Eh, that's going far too into modaphysical matters for me.

[Caustic Soda]

I did not know we had a LGBT organisation, thank you for mentioning it. :smallsmile:

It is the current version of the old organisation for Gays and Lesbians (Landsforeningen for Bøsser og Lesbiske). I found out about the name change last year, when I googled their old name.

[Asta Kask]

It is the current version of the old organisation for Gays and Lesbians (Landsforeningen for Bøsser og Lesbiske). I found out about the name change last year, when I googled their old name.

More useless trivia - Bøsse is the same word as the Swedish bössa, meaning rifle (or firearm in general) and also 'collection box'.

[KenderWizard]

I dunno, sort of surprised they hadn't already been defined. <<; That and I figured there was a good chance that I'd draw some flak and find out why they hadn't been easily defined earlier.

Nope, I think you're good!


Um, yeah. Anything sexually explicit is verboten.

BDSM does not have to be sexually explicit. It's a wide-ranging term, everything from a little kink in an otherwise vanilla heteronormative monogamous relationship like using handcuffs or a blindfold, through into people who identify as being into BDSM, who express that in the bedroom, outside the bedroom, in clubs, in a whole load of explicitly sexual and not-explicitly sexual and not-really-sexual-at-all ways, right through to a 24-7 lifestyle choice, like a full-time consensual Master/slave relationship. It can even be totally non-sexual to an observer and be sexual only in that it makes one or all parties feel aroused. And really, as far as any of us know, anyone around us could be aroused by anything at any time, so we can't exactly police that.

[Partysan]

BDSM does not have to be sexually explicit. It's a wide-ranging term, everything from a little kink in an otherwise vanilla heteronormative monogamous relationship like using handcuffs or a blindfold, through into people who identify as being into BDSM, who express that in the bedroom, outside the bedroom, in clubs, in a whole load of explicitly sexual and not-explicitly sexual and not-really-sexual-at-all ways, right through to a 24-7 lifestyle choice, like a full-time consensual Master/slave relationship. It can even be totally non-sexual to an observer and be sexual only in that it makes one or all parties feel aroused. And really, as far as any of us know, anyone around us could be aroused by anything at any time, so we can't exactly police that.

Yep. In fact, there are a substantial number of people in the scene who do not do anything directly sexual during their sessions and little that has to do with BDSM in their bedrooms, effectively separating sex and BDSM to a certain, even high degree. I can't give you numbers, but there are more than you'd expect. And the hard core of them will react furiously when you call BDSM something like a fetish or any other word used for sexual specifics.
Not me though. I mean, I can appreciate nonsexual sessions, especially for their often high aesthetic value, but I will always make the connection.

[Coidzor]

BDSM does not have to be sexually explicit.

And anything sexually explicit about it is verboten.


And really, as far as any of us know, anyone around us could be aroused by anything at any time, so we can't exactly police that.

As for that, good taste would have to be trusted. But, well, that's a bit like common sense. And now you have to wonder about what's being said in here to intentionally turn someone on and fly in under the board rules thanks to broaching the subject. :smallsigh:

[Al'izh'dheg]

Nope, I think you're good!



BDSM does not have to be sexually explicit. It's a wide-ranging term, everything from a little kink in an otherwise vanilla heteronormative monogamous relationship like using handcuffs or a blindfold, through into people who identify as being into BDSM, who express that in the bedroom, outside the bedroom, in clubs, in a whole load of explicitly sexual and not-explicitly sexual and not-really-sexual-at-all ways, right through to a 24-7 lifestyle choice, like a full-time consensual Master/slave relationship. It can even be totally non-sexual to an observer and be sexual only in that it makes one or all parties feel aroused. And really, as far as any of us know, anyone around us could be aroused by anything at any time, so we can't exactly police that.

Yes, and being a submissive lesbian transwoman makes life quite challenging. :) Erm... so I've heard. Allegedly. *slinks off before making it worse*

[Nix Nihila]

I just got back home. I'm rather exhausted, but very relieved to be getting back into my usual routine.

And I don't know why I forgot to post this before, but happy birthday, Kender!

[Qaera]

So ehm, skype... group? Is it still happening?

~ ♅

[Triscuitable]

So ehm, skype... group? Is it still happening?

~ ♅

Call me. My Skype username is triscuitable.

[Nix Nihila]

So ehm, skype... group? Is it still happening?

~ ♅

Er, yes, sorry. A combination of depression, busyness, and lack of privacy has made me sort of bad about that. *is feeling guilty*

But yes, it is still happening.

[Qaera]

Call me. My Skype username is triscuitable.
Talk to me BABE :smallwink::smallwink::smallwink:


Er, yes, sorry. A combination of depression, busyness, and lack of privacy has made me sort of bad about that. *is feeling guilty*

But yes, it is still happening.

:smallfrown: I've been there... like all of there. *hugs* Don't feel guilty now I' guilty about making you guilty aghhh

Yay~ ^_^

~ ♅

[Lyesmith]

Has this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_TBd-UCwVAY) been posted yet? It made me go all 'Dawwww!' which basically nothing ever manages.

[Kneenibble]

Has this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_TBd-UCwVAY) been posted yet? It made me go all 'Dawwww!' which basically nothing ever manages.

Wow: excuse me while I cry for fifteen minutes or so. That's so beautiful.

[Astrella]

Has this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_TBd-UCwVAY) been posted yet? It made me go all 'Dawwww!' which basically nothing ever manages.

That was really beautiful. :smallsmile:

[Lix Lorn]

Aww... it woulda hit harda if it hadn't been posted here, cause I guessed what it was, but still... <3

[KenderWizard]

I just got back home. I'm rather exhausted, but very relieved to be getting back into my usual routine.

And I don't know why I forgot to post this before, but happy birthday, Kender!

Thank you! :smallsmile: I'm glad you're back home safe and sound.


Has this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_TBd-UCwVAY) been posted yet? It made me go all 'Dawwww!' which basically nothing ever manages.

Oh my gosh! :smalleek::smallredface::smallsmile: That's beautiful.

[noparlpf]

Has this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_TBd-UCwVAY) been posted yet? It made me go all 'Dawwww!' which basically nothing ever manages.

That's really cute.


Aww... it woulda hit harda if it hadn't been posted here, cause I guessed what it was, but still... <3

I think I might still have guessed because of how obviously they were trying to keep the second guy out of the picture to make it a surprise.

[Callista]

Hey guys--Does anybody know of a useful resource for terminology? Kind of like the one we have at the beginning of this thread, but more comprehensive. I'm looking especially for things that'll show how terms are used--what circumstances, whether it's considered clinical or slang or offensive or a reclaimed term that is only okay for people to use if they're deliberately using it to be defiant (kind of the way a person might describe themselves as a "crip" to express disability pride). I'm getting interested in this lately and have a blog I've been writing for a long time, so I want to be sure I communicate properly.

[Coidzor]

(kind of the way a person might describe themselves as a "crip" to express disability pride).

...Huh. Never heard of anyone doing or desiring to do that. :smallconfused:

As for resources, just about every GLBT group online I've come across has had some nod at least towards what you want and at least two I can recall even had nods towards usage and reclamation. Can't remember the names of the organizations since the last time I looked up that stuff was frosh year.


Has this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_TBd-UCwVAY) been posted yet? It made me go all 'Dawwww!' which basically nothing ever manages.

Never understood the draw of that kind of camera work, I must admit.


I think I might still have guessed because of how obviously they were trying to keep the second guy out of the picture to make it a surprise.

Managed to avoid catching a glimpse at the top comment, eh?

[KenderWizard]

I have a friend who embraces "cripple". I have a friend who embraces cripples. Sorry, sounded funny!

Also, first comment for me on that video (which I didn't see until I scrolled down because I have a little netbook) is about a certain infamous church basically being trolls so to ignore them. So that might have been a clue, but not a total giveaway. Actually, halfway through the video I was like "This is TOO obvious, it's going to turn out to be a woman! No! A transwoman! No! A ! No! A ! ... " Also, I was worried something horrible would happen.

[Kneenibble]

Okay, now that I've caught up on the thread after distraction by sexy husband fantasies:

Happy belated birthday, Kender Wizard. May you have been pleasantly but not obfuscatedly drunk and jolly.


I just got back home. I'm rather exhausted, but very relieved to be getting back into my usual routine.

And I don't know why I forgot to post this before, but happy birthday, Kender!

A question unto you -- and unto transpeople more broadly -- how far do you have to go to play your birth sex in such situations? Is it a matter of external trappings only, or is there a kind of 'acting' involved as well -- insofar as gestures, mannerisms, voice, &c?

I'm glad you survived.


Hey guys--Does anybody know of a useful resource for terminology? Kind of like the one we have at the beginning of this thread, but more comprehensive. I'm looking especially for things that'll show how terms are used--what circumstances, whether it's considered clinical or slang or offensive or a reclaimed term that is only okay for people to use if they're deliberately using it to be defiant (kind of the way a person might describe themselves as a "crip" to express disability pride). I'm getting interested in this lately and have a blog I've been writing for a long time, so I want to be sure I communicate properly.

Often the sex-ed pamphlets that get distributed to older teenagers these days -- the groovy urban sex-ed pamphlets, that is, not the dated 1950s-in-disguise ones -- have a list of lingo. I can't think of a written guide off the top of my head, especially considering the fluctuating spectrum of slang-offense-empowered reclamation-clinical usage.

Hang around in a queer bar listening to people talk for a few nights, I'm sure you'll get plenty educated. :smallwink:

[Kindablue]

Has this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_TBd-UCwVAY) been posted yet? It made me go all 'Dawwww!' which basically nothing ever manages.

Thanks for posting that. :smallsmile:

[Callista]

I've... uhm... got something in my eye... :smalltongue:


Hang around in a queer bar listening to people talk for a few nights, I'm sure you'll get plenty educated. :smallwink:Pleh! I have never been to a bar in my life and I don't plan to start now. They just sound too chaotic and socially charged. Give me a nice coffee place any day... Hmm, are there queer coffee places? If there aren't, there should be. The best ones, the kind where the chairs are all mismatched and there are random books lying around for just anybody to read, and students come and buy a latte and sit there for three hours reading their textbooks and nobody shoos them out...

[noparlpf]

Managed to avoid catching a glimpse at the top comment, eh?

What did the first comment say for you? I'm getting "If this video doesn't make you smile and feel happy for these two...then something is deeply wrong with your soul. Or perhaps you are simply lacking of one! Very touching :)"


I have a friend who embraces "cripple". I have a friend who embraces cripples. Sorry, sounded funny!

Also, first comment for me on that video (which I didn't see until I scrolled down because I have a little netbook) is about a certain infamous church basically being trolls so to ignore them. So that might have been a clue, but not a total giveaway. Actually, halfway through the video I was like "This is TOO obvious, it's going to turn out to be a woman! No! A transwoman! No! A ! No! A ! ... " Also, I was worried something horrible would happen.

Yeah, I was actually wondering midway through what the twist would be. I was like, "...wait, it can't be this obvious." The possibility that it might turn out to be a transwoman occurred to me, but how would we be able to tell? So it couldn't be.

[Kneenibble]

Pleh! I have never been to a bar in my life and I don't plan to start now. They just sound too chaotic and socially charged. Give me a nice coffee place any day... Hmm, are there queer coffee places? If there aren't, there should be. The best ones, the kind where the chairs are all mismatched and there are random books lying around for just anybody to read, and students come and buy a latte and sit there for three hours reading their textbooks and nobody shoos them out...

And yet is it not For Science, madame?! Put on an imaginary spacesuit and brave the social wilderness of phrenetic sensory overload to gather precious, precious data.

There's certainly queer coffee places, but their educational value is poor.

[KenderWizard]

Happy belated birthday, Kender Wizard. May you have been pleasantly but not obfuscatedly drunk and jolly.


Ah, if only. I was only able for three glasses of whiskey; I've been very tired recently, and sick since my birthday. Sore throat. :smallsigh: I had intended to go to the pub after the meal, but I ended up having a quiet drink at home with my partner after everyone left and going to bed. I'm having drinks on Wednesday, though, and with my parents next weekend. It's important to stretch these things out.

The same to you, by the way. :smallsmile: Good day?



Pleh! I have never been to a bar in my life and I don't plan to start now. They just sound too chaotic and socially charged. Give me a nice coffee place any day... Hmm, are there queer coffee places? If there aren't, there should be. The best ones, the kind where the chairs are all mismatched and there are random books lying around for just anybody to read, and students come and buy a latte and sit there for three hours reading their textbooks and nobody shoos them out...

Ooh! I know a bar just like that! Because in Ireland, all functions are covered by the pub. :smallwink: Well, I dunno about textbooks, since it's been a while since I brought a textbook around with me instead of the newspaper, but, tell you what, I'll give it a go next time I'm there!

Also, I used to hate the idea of the pub, and now I'm a proper Irish functioning alcoholic very dependent on it very fond of it.



Yeah, I was actually wondering midway through what the twist would be. I was like, "...wait, it can't be this obvious." The possibility that it might turn out to be a transwoman occurred to me, but how would we be able to tell? So it couldn't be.

Yeah, it'd be basically impossible, I think. You'd have to use words, and that'd be telling, not showing.

[Coidzor]

I have a friend who embraces "cripple". I have a friend who embraces cripples. Sorry, sounded funny!

:smallconfused: How?


What did the first comment say for you? I'm getting "If this video doesn't make you smile and feel happy for these two...then something is deeply wrong with your soul. Or perhaps you are simply lacking of one! Very touching :)"

Something about it being very moving from when the guys first met to yadda yadda to when the mother died and the actual reveal.

How about that, going to doublecheck and the top comments are different, guess this is the first youtube video that's new that I've bothered to look at more than once...

:smallfrown: Kind of depresssing how vapid the current batch of top comments is right now though. :smallsigh: People that can't tell that this is Australian rather than American... :smallyuk:



Though, really, the biggest tip off is the link about the same-sex marriage petition put there by the video uploader. Since there's not really going to be a trans marriage petition... whatever that would actually entail... until a fair bit of progress on the larger, same-sex marriage issue that anything trans-related would also be bound up in.

[Kneenibble]

Coidzor, have you not learned by now that reading Youtube comments is our present-day Necronomicon? In that even in brushing over them with your eyes you have collected a madness that you cannot wash away?


Ah, if only. I was only able for three glasses of whiskey; I've been very tired recently, and sick since my birthday. Sore throat. :smallsigh: I had intended to go to the pub after the meal, but I ended up having a quiet drink at home with my partner after everyone left and going to bed. I'm having drinks on Wednesday, though, and with my parents next weekend. It's important to stretch these things out.

The same to you, by the way. :smallsmile: Good day?

Ahh, I'm sorry. You'll have to consider Wednesday and the weekend your make-up events. :smallwink:

Thank you. My day was fabulous: I took the day off from work, ate Turkish Delight and coffee in bed, and went with my parents and BFF to my favourite restaurant for an absurdly decadent dinner. Some of the food was so good I cried a little.

[noparlpf]

Something about it being very moving from when the guys first met to yadda yadda to when the mother died and the actual reveal.

How about that, going to doublecheck and the top comments are different, guess this is the first youtube video that's new that I've bothered to look at more than once...

:smallfrown: Kind of depresssing how vapid the current batch of top comments is right now though. :smallsigh: People that can't tell that this is Australian rather than American... :smallyuk:


Though, really, the biggest tip off is the link about the same-sex marriage petition put there by the video uploader. Since there's not really going to be a trans marriage petition... whatever that would actually entail... until a fair bit of progress on the larger, same-sex marriage issue that anything trans-related would also be bound up in.

Huh. Yeah, those would be spoilers. Good thing I ordinarily never scroll down to the comments on a YouTube page.
Yeah, the top one right now is about the Super Bowl. I kind of doubt that Americans viewing this would have much say in Australian lawmaking.
Looks like it's also a good thing that I rarely look at the poster's comments on a YouTube page either.

[Nix Nihila]

:smallfrown: I've been there... like all of there. *hugs* Don't feel guilty now I' guilty about making you guilty aghhh

Yay~ ^_^

~ ♅

Don't! I'll get around to it faster because of it.



A question unto you -- and unto transpeople more broadly -- how far do you have to go to play your birth sex in such situations? Is it a matter of external trappings only, or is there a kind of 'acting' involved as well -- insofar as gestures, mannerisms, voice, &c?

I'm glad you survived.


The way I speak is definitely a lot different. My female voice is more melodic then my male voice, and I tend to elaborate more and use nicer sounding words. I'm pithier when I'm presenting as male. I have no idea if this will make any sense to anyone other than myself, but the words I use when I'm female tend to be brightly colored, often in the bluish-green range, whereas the words I use when I'm male are darker, like deep maroon or chestnut. I also gesture a lot more when I'm presenting as female (I'm not really sure why I do that), and I'm much more shy when I'm presenting as male, but that's more due to discomfort than anything else.

[Triscuitable]

The way I speak is definitely a lot different. My female voice is more melodic then my male voice, and I tend to elaborate more and use nicer sounding words. I'm pithier when I'm presenting as male. I have no idea if this will make any sense to anyone other than myself, but the words I use when I'm female tend to be brightly colored, often in the bluish-green range, whereas the words I use when I'm male are darker, like deep maroon or chestnut. I also gesture a lot more when I'm presenting as female (I'm not really sure why I do that), and I'm much more shy when I'm presenting as male, but that's more due to discomfort than anything else.

I tend to prefer the female walk of the bouncy-hips. Plus, it's fun! Aside from that, I guess the only was I represent a gender (in that I try NOT to) is facial hair. It's unstoppable. Here's a tip, get wax. It's gross to have thick hairs grow around where I put my fork.

[Coidzor]

Good thing I ordinarily never scroll down to the comments on a YouTube page.

...What kind of browser are you using that the top comments and uploader comments aren't in the same frame as the video? :smallconfused:


Coidzor, have you not learned by now that reading Youtube comments is our present-day Necronomicon? In that even in brushing over them with your eyes you have collected a madness that you cannot wash away?

Now you're just exaggerating. The uploaders hardly ever put mind-shattering secrets in their video descriptions.

And I routinely see more disturbing things discussed or brought up in this thread than I do on youtube. The only maddening thing there is that people on youtube actually speak out in favor of the things that are getting decried in here.

[Arachu]

I don't need a soul to smile at that video. :smallsmile: :smalltongue:

(Also it amuses me how condescending some of the pro-homosexual-marriage retorts are.)


On another note, my aunt has started making jokes about lending me hair barrettes in an obvious attempt to get me to cut my hair. :roach:

[Kneenibble]

The way I speak is definitely a lot different. My female voice is more melodic then my male voice, and I tend to elaborate more and use nicer sounding words. I'm pithier when I'm presenting as male. I have no idea if this will make any sense to anyone other than myself, but the words I use when I'm female tend to be brightly colored, often in the bluish-green range, whereas the words I use when I'm male are darker, like deep maroon or chestnut. I also gesture a lot more when I'm presenting as female (I'm not really sure why I do that), and I'm much more shy when I'm presenting as male, but that's more due to discomfort than anything else.

It makes sense only insofar as I appreciate the idea of synesthesia, but I enjoyed reading about it nevertheless.

I suppose it would be asking too much for words that are bluish-green, or words that are redder and browner. Examples would bruise the sweet mystery.

[Heliomance]

I kind of understand what you mean, Nix. While I don't associate words with colours myself, the colours make me think of a certain "feel", as it were, and I can imagine speech patterns that would produce the same "feel". It's kinda hard to explain in words, it's association on a very conceptual level.

ION, just walked into a computer lab at my uni library and saw a book on the side called "Undoing Gender". Amused me slightly, for no good reason.

[noparlpf]

...What kind of browser are you using that the top comments and uploader comments aren't in the same frame as the video? :smallconfused:

I'm just using Firefox 8.0.1. The way I have the sizes set, I can't see the comments without scrolling down. As for the uploader's comments, I just don't look at them.


On another note, my aunt has started making jokes about lending me hair barrettes in an obvious attempt to get me to cut my hair. :roach:

I remember those days...I've actually had relatives offer me 50 USD to get a haircut.

[KenderWizard]

:smallconfused: How?


Goes by a nickname that references it.



Ahh, I'm sorry. You'll have to consider Wednesday and the weekend your make-up events. :smallwink:

Thank you. My day was fabulous: I took the day off from work, ate Turkish Delight and coffee in bed, and went with my parents and BFF to my favourite restaurant for an absurdly decadent dinner. Some of the food was so good I cried a little.

That sounds fantastic! I had a lecture, but I gave out lollipops, which made the whole thing more fun. The lecturer was sad he couldn't have one because he had to talk, but I gave him one at the end. Then I released balloons with Women's Aid to protest domestic violence. I went to the place I did geophysics research over the summer to work on some scientific diagrams, and then had a gluten-free bagel from my favourite bagel place as a picnic with my partner. Then shopped for food, met my godmother for wine, decorated the apartment, and hosted a Thanksbirthday meal, which was fantastic. Gave everyone a party bucket as they left, then whiskey on the roof with my partner, and bed!



The way I speak is definitely a lot different. My female voice is more melodic then my male voice, and I tend to elaborate more and use nicer sounding words. I'm pithier when I'm presenting as male. I have no idea if this will make any sense to anyone other than myself, but the words I use when I'm female tend to be brightly colored, often in the bluish-green range, whereas the words I use when I'm male are darker, like deep maroon or chestnut. I also gesture a lot more when I'm presenting as female (I'm not really sure why I do that), and I'm much more shy when I'm presenting as male, but that's more due to discomfort than anything else.

I understand; I get colours and shapes. Not always very strongly, but stronger in phrases and with emotional words.

[Callista]

If you have long hair, I just have to say--please please take good care of it, keep it clean and tangle-free. I've seen too many people (mostly guys, but some girls) think that it looked just fine to let their greasy, dirty hair hang all over the place.

Of course, that's coming from someone whose idea of fashion is "don't wear sweatpants to a job interview"... So maybe I'm not one to talk.

Synesthesia seems to be pretty common around here. Pretty cool! Numbers have shapes, for me. Or, more properly, volume. Primes are long, awkward sticks that try to fold over but can't; composites are rectangles and squares and prisms, sometimes with more than three dimensions. Trying to think of a number like 64 makes my brain kind of hurt because it's got so many facets and it keeps on flipping from one configuration into another, and I can't see its true shape because there are too many dimensions.

I have no idea whether that's synesthesia or just the effect of a visual thinker's understanding of numbers. I think it's probably the latter, because I didn't start thinking of numbers this way until my early teens and didn't get the hang of multiplication until I did. Either way, I like it. It gives me an intuitive understanding of higher math--calculus, statistics, linear algebra and such. You can visualize a lot of that stuff as shapes rather than numbers. I never did get into tensors, though. That's where my math ability peters out, I think.

I feel kind of jealous of people who have music/color synesthesia. It must be like getting a free light show every time they listen to music...

[noparlpf]

If you have long hair, I just have to say--please please take good care of it, keep it clean and tangle-free. I've seen too many people (mostly guys, but some girls) think that it looked just fine to let their greasy, dirty hair hang all over the place.

Of course, that's coming from someone whose idea of fashion is "don't wear sweatpants to a job interview"... So maybe I'm not one to talk.

My roommate from last year is one of the guys who doesn't keep his hair neat. It's not very long, but it's long enough that it would probably look better if he combed it occasionally and washed it a bit more often. I've known some guys with incredibly nasty hair, and personally I think that any hair with too many products in it is kind of gross (I'm looking at you, 90% of the girls from high school).
I personally have fairly short hair now, at least compared to what I'm used to. I cut off around 18", or about 45 cm, back in April, and I'm still not used to it. Now it's only down to about my breast pocket (at least it is when I wear shirts with breast pockets). I take good care of it and it is very nice.

[The Succubus]

My roommate from last year is one of the guys who doesn't keep his hair neat. It's not very long, but it's long enough that it would probably look better if he combed it occasionally and washed it a bit more often. I've known some guys with incredibly nasty hair, and personally I think that any hair with too many products in it is kind of gross (I'm looking at you, 90% of the girls from high school).
I personally have fairly short hair now, at least compared to what I'm used to. I cut off around 18", or about 45 cm, back in April, and I'm still not used to it. Now it's only down to about my breast pocket (at least it is when I wear shirts with breast pockets). I take good care of it and it is very nice.

I'd be happy just to keep what little hair I have left. :smallannoyed:

[Yora]

All I do to my hair is to wash it ever two days and have it cut a bit every 3 or 4 years. And I think it looks really good. Never understood what people complain that long hair takes so much work. But maybe my family has been blessed with very easy to tend to hair.

[Lix Lorn]

A question unto you -- and unto transpeople more broadly -- how far do you have to go to play your birth sex in such situations? Is it a matter of external trappings only, or is there a kind of 'acting' involved as well -- insofar as gestures, mannerisms, voice, &c?
Well, I'm not trying to pass yet, but for what it's worth, I don't really think about it. I can drop into my female voice pretty much at will now, and I do change my speech patterns noticeably other than just the tone. (Apparently I sound a little irish.)
I guess they're both as easy as each other. I can act as me-as-I-have-been as easily as I can act as me-as-I-will-be. They may both be masks, but neither is any work.

In random other news, some random cold call for my mother when she was away referred to me as madame even with my normal voice. I was highly amused and did not say anything. xD

[noparlpf]

All I do to my hair is to wash it ever two days and have it cut a bit every 3 or 4 years. And I think it looks really good. Never understood what people complain that long hair takes so much work. But maybe my family has been blessed with very easy to tend to hair.

When my hair was down to my waist it was bothersome because it took absolutely ages to dry and usually around ten minutes to brush--on a good day. On a bad day it was more like half an hour. My hair is fairly straight, it's just thick and tends to tangle in the back.

[Yora]

Currently my hair seems to have reached the 50 cm mark (yeah!) and I'd like to get at least 20 to 30 cm more. After getting most of the water out with a towel and let it air dry, and brushing takes less than a minute.
I really don't have any idea what else to do with it.

[Hawkflight]

How DO you get long hair, anyways? I try to let it just grow out, but it never seems to reach past my neckline. :\

[Yora]

Pro-Tip: Don't cut it! :smallbiggrin:

The thing with hair is, that you always judge its length in relation to how long it was before. If you have really short hair, you can see the difference in length after a month or two. But from 2 cm to 3 cm is a completely different thing than from 22 cm to 23 cm, so even if hair actually grows at a constant rate (not sure about that), it becomes more and more difficult to notice the difference.

I've also read somewhere that cutting the ends is usually not neccessary and something made up by hairdressers who want their customers to come back soon.

Also, less chemicals in your hair is always better. When you put stuff into it to counter the negative side effects of other stuff you've put in a minute before, you know something is wrong.

[noparlpf]

Pro-Tip: Don't cut it! :smallbiggrin:

The thing with hair is, that you always judge its length in relation to how long it was before. If you have really short hair, you can see the difference in length after a month or two. But from 2 cm to 3 cm is a completely different thing than from 22 cm to 23 cm, so even if hair actually grows at a constant rate (not sure about that), it becomes more and more difficult to notice the difference.

I've also read somewhere that cutting the ends is usually not necessary and something made up by hairdressers who want their customers to come back soon.

Also, less chemicals in your hair is always better. When you put stuff into it to counter the negative side effects of other stuff you've put in a minute before, you know something is wrong.

I've always just had my mother trim a few inches off every 8-12 months. If you do develop split ends it is better to trim them off, but I trim it a little even though I don't usually get split ends just to make it more even because it always seems to end up uneven after a while.
I don't put anything in my hair. I wash it every few days and use conditioner. That's enough for me.

[Yora]

With average growth speed of 6 inches per year "a few inces every 8-12 months" is quite a bit.

If you have a problem with split ends, you might look into ways to reduce exactly that, so you can reduce the amount that you have to cut off and increase the rate at which it gets longer.

[noparlpf]

With average growth speed of 6 inches per year "a few inches every 8-12 months" is quite a bit.

I estimate that my hair grows at around 9" a year. I guess that's a lot?

[Eldest]

I've also read somewhere that cutting the ends is usually not neccessary and something made up by hairdressers who want their customers to come back soon.

I've never heard that, and doubt it. I haven't gotten a haircut in a year, and haven't had any problem with my hair.

[KenderWizard]

If you have long hair, I just have to say--please please take good care of it, keep it clean and tangle-free. I've seen too many people (mostly guys, but some girls) think that it looked just fine to let their greasy, dirty hair hang all over the place.

Of course, that's coming from someone whose idea of fashion is "don't wear sweatpants to a job interview"... So maybe I'm not one to talk.

Synesthesia seems to be pretty common around here. Pretty cool! Numbers have shapes, for me. Or, more properly, volume. Primes are long, awkward sticks that try to fold over but can't; composites are rectangles and squares and prisms, sometimes with more than three dimensions. Trying to think of a number like 64 makes my brain kind of hurt because it's got so many facets and it keeps on flipping from one configuration into another, and I can't see its true shape because there are too many dimensions.

I have no idea whether that's synesthesia or just the effect of a visual thinker's understanding of numbers. I think it's probably the latter, because I didn't start thinking of numbers this way until my early teens and didn't get the hang of multiplication until I did. Either way, I like it. It gives me an intuitive understanding of higher math--calculus, statistics, linear algebra and such. You can visualize a lot of that stuff as shapes rather than numbers. I never did get into tensors, though. That's where my math ability peters out, I think.

I feel kind of jealous of people who have music/color synesthesia. It must be like getting a free light show every time they listen to music...

Yeah, I'd love to get the really strong colours and stuff. I have to close my eyes to be able to concentrate on music properly. Makes it difficult to listen to music casually! I heard of one person who didn't realise not everyone had vivid music->colour synaesthesia and thought that they dimmed the lights for orchestras so people could watch the colours more easily.

I have a number line to do maths with that turns and curves and stuff so I always know where I am and it really helps me keep track of orders of magnitude and stuff like that.


How DO you get long hair, anyways? I try to let it just grow out, but it never seems to reach past my neckline. :\

I don't know about you, but at a certain point, my hair starts to curl at the ends slightly, which really hides how long it's getting. Then it grows past that and becomes obviously Long.

I generally find it bothersome when people don't take care of themselves. Maybe it's because I have a pretty good sense of smell, but some people really smell bad. I try very hard not to judge people I don't know for it, because maybe they don't have the money for hot water or something, but most people I interact with are middle class university students or graduates, so they probably do. It only takes a quick shower every two days to make you Not Stink. It's possible to shower in 5 minutes, because that's how long it takes me when I'm going fast. So for the sake of 5 minutes out of every 48 hours... At a certain point, I consider it rude, to insist on making other people put up with a bad smell.

In relevant news, I went to the LGBT society (or Qsoc) room today for tea. It was a bit awkward because I didn't know anyone, and two of the guys said slut-shaming things (not to me or anyone there, about a girl in someone's class), which bothered me, but the committee members were really nice, and I bought an AIDS awareness ribbon.

[noparlpf]

I generally find it bothersome when people don't take care of themselves. Maybe it's because I have a pretty good sense of smell, but some people really smell bad. I try very hard not to judge people I don't know for it, because maybe they don't have the money for hot water or something, but most people I interact with are middle class university students or graduates, so they probably do. It only takes a quick shower every two days to make you Not Stink. It's possible to shower in 5 minutes, because that's how long it takes me when I'm going fast. So for the sake of 5 minutes out of every 48 hours... At a certain point, I consider it rude, to insist on making other people put up with a bad smell.

I find it bothersome when people don't take care of themselves because I'm kind of a germophobe or [insert whatever proper word you're familiar with here; I've heard three or four], not to mention my sense of smell. But you know, for some people it takes more than that to keep from smelling bad. Some people just have bad body odor. Oddly, I find that I have a stronger reaction to my own smell than other people do, which is another reason why I shower daily, and occasionally more often. Conversely, my younger brother definitely smells bad even if he showers daily and uses deodorant.

[Callista]

In relevant news, I went to the LGBT society (or Qsoc) room today for tea. It was a bit awkward because I didn't know anyone, and two of the guys said slut-shaming things (not to me or anyone there, about a girl in someone's class), which bothered me, but the committee members were really nice, and I bought an AIDS awareness ribbon.LOL, well, it's not like LGBT people are any nicer or better than anybody else! Wonder what my school's rainbow society would say if a random asexual walked in... I'm betting on at least one "you're probably a repressed lesbian". :P

[Heliomance]

So I'm hopefully going to be playing a TG character in D&D fairly soon. I'm playing an illusion specialist, and so I had the idea of a girl who has Disguise Self up 24/7 to hide the fact that she's physically male. Then I looked at Disguise Self and found it had duration 1 minute per level. So hopefully the DM will let me have a second level version that lasts 2 hours per level.

[H Birchgrove]

So I'm hopefully going to be playing a TG character in D&D fairly soon. I'm playing an illusion specialist, and so I had the idea of a girl who has Disguise Self up 24/7 to hide the fact that she's physically male. Then I looked at Disguise Self and found it had duration 1 minute per level. So hopefully the DM will let me have a second level version that lasts 2 hours per level.

That's cool! I didn't even know that there was a spell like that!

Will use it for characters based on pulp heroes.

What will you, or your PC, do if the DM brings up the Belt of Changing Gender? Sorry, I'm a bit obsessed about that thing.

[Coidzor]

Goes by a nickname that references it.

Ahh, forgot you were Irish for a moment there. x.x

[Heliomance]

There isn't, it would be homebrew. To be honest, I doubt he will. I also doubt the TGness will ever come up unless I eat a Dispel Magic that takes it down.

[H Birchgrove]

There isn't, it would be homebrew. To be honest, I doubt he will. I also doubt the TGness will ever come up unless I eat a Dispel Magic that takes it down.

You should go Haley on him:

:haley: "Excuse me for doing something I like to call 'role-playing'."

:smallwink:

[Asta Kask]

So I'm hopefully going to be playing a TG character in D&D fairly soon. I'm playing an illusion specialist, and so I had the idea of a girl who has Disguise Self up 24/7 to hide the fact that she's physically male. Then I looked at Disguise Self and found it had duration 1 minute per level. So hopefully the DM will let me have a second level version that lasts 2 hours per level.

Do as much as possible via nonmagical means. They're not vulnerable to Detect Magic and Dispel Magic. How difficult is it for a small-chested girl to pass as a man anyway? Anyone know?

[Yora]

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/8967/motivatord3a6ef265ca9f4.jpg
I made this one about a year back.

[Callista]

How about a Hat of Disguise?

[H Birchgrove]

A few levels in Psion so you can "cloud men's minds"? :smallwink:

[Asta Kask]

Apparently it was done all the time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossdressing_during_wartime) so it can't have been that difficult.

[Callista]

Yeah, but weren't a lot of those just girls who dressed up as guys so they could be soldiers? Or else, just used men's clothing because they didn't make the equivalent female styles? I think that's a pretty easy thing to do, comparatively--an army with lots of young men in it, younger than sixteen in many cases; a twenty-year-old girl could pass as a sixteen-year-old guy... Are there historical records of cross-dressing the other way 'round, guys passing as girls? What about historical trans women? How did they manage, before modern medicine?

There's the beard, for one thing; you'd probably need to get rid of that magically, ideally--maybe Prestidigitation, or a specially designed magic item? It shouldn't be that expensive. Having a five o'clock shadow could really blow your Disguise check.

On the other hand, maybe in a magical society, cross-dressing and transgendered people are more easily accepted. In the Real World, we haven't had too long (in cultural terms) to get used to the extent of what hormones and surgery can do; whereas, in a magical society, you'd get lots of rather easily available options, given that you weren't a peasant, to change your physical body--all the way from a masterwork disguise kit and some Prestidigitation, to Alter Self, to Polymorph Any Object. If you had enough money, you could completely change your body.

Actually, that makes me wonder whether there might not be people who are trans-species. Like--say, physically human, mentally elf... Maybe it could come from an ancestor's experience with a polymorph spell; or a trace of elven blood coming to the forefront after generations. Lots of possibilities there.

[noparlpf]

Do as much as possible via nonmagical means. They're not vulnerable to Detect Magic and Dispel Magic. How difficult is it for a small-chested girl to pass as a man anyway? Anyone know?

It depends on the person, really. A lot of it is dress and hairstyle, but males and females do have different body shapes. Most of the time, I incorrectly identify pre-op transmen as women the first time I meet them. This is why I've decided not to trust my own instincts do determine what genders people are.

[Mina Kobold]

So I'm hopefully going to be playing a TG character in D&D fairly soon. I'm playing an illusion specialist, and so I had the idea of a girl who has Disguise Self up 24/7 to hide the fact that she's physically male. Then I looked at Disguise Self and found it had duration 1 minute per level. So hopefully the DM will let me have a second level version that lasts 2 hours per level.

If you're willing to spend a feat on it, I believe there are metamagic feats in the 3.5 core books that could extend the duration of a spell like that at the cost of raising it a level. :smallsmile:

It might also be possible to use lesser disguise spells for similar purposes, but I am not an expert on the finer details of D&D wizardry and sorcery.

On another note, I might be guilty of letting my hair tangle more than I should. I do try to untangle it by hand, but I really should brush it more often. Sorries!

I do not apologise for not showering every day, though. Denmark gets cold when you're a cold-blooded Kobold!

[Callista]

It depends on the person, really. A lot of it is dress and hairstyle, but males and females do have different body shapes. Most of the time, I incorrectly identify pre-op transmen as women the first time I meet them. This is why I've decided not to trust my own instincts do determine what genders people are.Loose clothing goes a long way to disguise the hips. I've had people call me "sir" occasionally, but always when seen from the back. I think that's because I do have an obvious chest, which can't be seen from the back. Ideally, you want to wear a rather long, loose shirt which hangs over your waist to about the middle of your butt, so that your waist isn't so obvious.

I am pretty sure that lots of FtMs use weight loss as part of their strategy; it does make you a bit less curvy.

[Heliomance]

You should go Haley on him:

:haley: "Excuse me for doing something I like to call 'role-playing'."

:smallwink:
Oops, ambiguous wording there. I meant I don't think he'll bring up the belt of gender changing.


Do as much as possible via nonmagical means. They're not vulnerable to Detect Magic and Dispel Magic. How difficult is it for a small-chested girl to pass as a man anyway? Anyone know?
I'm going the other way. She'll be MtF. But yes, I've put ranks in Disguise.


If you're willing to spend a feat on it, I believe there are metamagic feats in the 3.5 core books that could extend the duration of a spell like that at the cost of raising it a level. :smallsmile:
The only one that would take it to anything like long enough is Persist Spell, which requires two feats and raises the spell six levels.

[Lix Lorn]

On another note, I might be guilty of letting my hair tangle more than I should. I do try to untangle it by hand, but I really should brush it more often. Sorries!
Snap.
:smallfrown: :smallbiggrin:

[noparlpf]

Loose clothing goes a long way to disguise the hips. I've had people call me "sir" occasionally, but always when seen from the back. I think that's because I do have an obvious chest, which can't be seen from the back. Ideally, you want to wear a rather long, loose shirt which hangs over your waist to about the middle of your butt, so that your waist isn't so obvious.

I am pretty sure that lots of FtMs use weight loss as part of their strategy; it does make you a bit less curvy.

Longer, looser shirts do probably help.
One trans-guy I know was actually anorexic for a while because of his issues with his body.

[Asta Kask]

I'm going the other way. She'll be MtF. But yes, I've put ranks in Disguise.

That's not what you wrote, but nevermind. In that case I'd say hairiness is your main problem. Take care of that and get some believable padding...

Oh, and voice training.

[KenderWizard]

I find it bothersome when people don't take care of themselves because I'm kind of a germophobe or [insert whatever proper word you're familiar with here; I've heard three or four], not to mention my sense of smell. But you know, for some people it takes more than that to keep from smelling bad. Some people just have bad body odor. Oddly, I find that I have a stronger reaction to my own smell than other people do, which is another reason why I shower daily, and occasionally more often. Conversely, my younger brother definitely smells bad even if he showers daily and uses deodorant.

It's also important to change clothes regularly. Yes, at a certain point, everyone has an in-built smell that another person can just find not very nice. I don't get cross about that because they can't help it. It's clearly not washing yourself that I have trouble with!


LOL, well, it's not like LGBT people are any nicer or better than anybody else! Wonder what my school's rainbow society would say if a random asexual walked in... I'm betting on at least one "you're probably a repressed lesbian". :P

Yeah, it's so easy to divide people into "Good" and "Bad", or, more accurately, "My Side" and "The Other Side", but people can be totally cool about some stuff and then turn out to be wildly racist or something.


Ahh, forgot you were Irish for a moment there. x.x

We are mad! :smallsmile: I'm not sure what you're referencing, though. Do Irish people have a reputation for nicknames?

[golentan]

I generally find it bothersome when people don't take care of themselves. Maybe it's because I have a pretty good sense of smell, but some people really smell bad. I try very hard not to judge people I don't know for it, because maybe they don't have the money for hot water or something, but most people I interact with are middle class university students or graduates, so they probably do. It only takes a quick shower every two days to make you Not Stink. It's possible to shower in 5 minutes, because that's how long it takes me when I'm going fast. So for the sake of 5 minutes out of every 48 hours... At a certain point, I consider it rude, to insist on making other people put up with a bad smell.

That's really not true. I shower daily and use a clinical strength deodorant, and I still have body odor problems.

[Coidzor]

What about historical trans women? How did they manage, before modern medicine?

Cross-dressing, mostly, though a few cultures, though the only one I can think of offhand is an anecdotal reference to a single native american culture whose name escapes me, had a category and place for such individuals.

I imagine there's a fair bit of overlap between people we retroactively identify as intersexed (in the absence of any knowledge about their genitals) and trans individuals, but I've never thought to delve into it beyond what a cursory read on the subject would grant, which hasn't been much.

If anyone has resources to share on the matter that'd be rather interesting or possibly just depressing, one or the other or both, really.


Actually, that makes me wonder whether there might not be people who are trans-species. Like--say, physically human, mentally elf... Maybe it could come from an ancestor's experience with a polymorph spell; or a trace of elven blood coming to the forefront after generations. Lots of possibilities there.

More likely throwbacks, like a flightless bird-analogue whose brain insists that it's still able to fly. Otherwise wizards would basically be unable to produce viable offspring to become more wizards, as it's one thing to have the brain develop into that of a woman or even a dwarf, quite a different thing for it to develop into the brain of, say, a hydra. Then again, maybe that's where things like Fleshwarpers and Renegade Mastermakers really come from.


It depends on the person, really. A lot of it is dress and hairstyle, but males and females do have different body shapes. Most of the time, I incorrectly identify pre-op transmen as women the first time I meet them. This is why I've decided not to trust my own instincts do determine what genders people are.

:smallconfused: Means you've got a better eye for anatomy than most people do. That is a gift in and of itself, though how one could make use of it fails me at the moment, since it doesn't necessarily translate into the two outlets of fashion and medicine that a natural feel for anatomy and an eye for detail could aid.


We are mad! :smallsmile: I'm not sure what you're referencing, though. Do Irish people have a reputation for nicknames?

In my experience, the only people who reference that organization in their handles in the U.S. are trying to be internet tough guys as opposed to joking about it.

Those little cultural differences, as I imagine that the organization does not exist at all in Ireland, and so it is slightly less than real to your people as a result.

[KenderWizard]

That's not what you wrote, but nevermind. In that case I'd say hairiness is your main problem. Take care of that and get some believable padding...

Oh, and voice training.

It is, ce said:


So I'm hopefully going to be playing a TG character in D&D fairly soon. I'm playing an illusion specialist, and so I had the idea of a girl who has Disguise Self up 24/7 to hide the fact that she's physically male. Then I looked at Disguise Self and found it had duration 1 minute per level. So hopefully the DM will let me have a second level version that lasts 2 hours per level.




That's really not true. I shower daily and use a clinical strength deodorant, and I still have body odor problems.

:smallfrown: I'm sorry. Like I said, I wouldn't be cross with you about that, because it's not your fault. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

[noparlpf]

Cross-dressing, mostly, though a few cultures, though the only one I can think of offhand is an anecdotal reference to a single native american culture whose name escapes me, had a category and place for such individuals.

I imagine there's a fair bit of overlap between people we retroactively identify as intersexed (in the absence of any knowledge about their genitals) and trans individuals, but I've never thought to delve into it beyond what a cursory read on the subject would grant, which hasn't been much.

If anyone has resources to share on the matter that'd be rather interesting or possibly just depressing, one or the other or both, really.

I think I've heard of the native American thing before, but I don't remember any details. The rest seems fairly likely, and I'd be interested if anybody who's studied this has more to say on it.


:smallconfused: Means you've got a better eye for anatomy than most people do. That is a gift in and of itself, though how one could make use of it fails me at the moment, since it doesn't necessarily translate into the two outlets of fashion and medicine that a natural feel for anatomy and an eye for detail could aid.

I'm terrible at drawing, so that's out, and fashion is one of those human foibles I fail to understand, so that's out too. I could probably go into medicine without much academic difficulty, but I'm probably too squeamish. So, like most of my other talents, this one will probably go to waste. Anyway, it's probably just observation.

[Asta Kask]

It is, ce said:

Well, if you're going to nitpick aboout it... :smallwink:

[Yora]

I think I've heard of the native American thing before, but I don't remember any details. The rest seems fairly likely, and I'd be interested if anybody who's studied this has more to say on it.
I remember that one interpretation of the third gender was something about a male and female spirit sharing a body. But can't say much else about it.

In siberia, transsexuality had an association with shamanism. No idea if training as a shaman was for all transsexuals, or the assuming of a new gender role was part of the shaman training under some circumstances, but there seems to have been a notacably high number of transsexuals among shamans.
But they were effectivly treated as persons of their new gender, with the appropriate clothing and able to marry according to their new gender.

[Kneenibble]

I remember that one interpretation of the third gender was something about a male and female spirit sharing a body. But can't say much else about it.

Yora, what you refer to is the title Two-Spirited. It is actually a modern appellation that some aboriginal people use as an alternative to LGBT -- many acronyms in my part of Canada, having a high(er than normal) urban aboriginal population, include TS for that reason. It's not historically based whatsoever, though, and came about in the cultural studies discourse of the 1970s.

(The Two-Spirited Association of my province recently donated its records to my archives, so I'll soon be learning a lot more about it)

One can't make any generalizations about this kind of thing: "Native American" is about as specific a category as "Asian." A nation in modern-day Quebec/Ontario had a cultural precedent for transgender people -- males who wore women's clothes and did women's work, women who wore men's clothes and participated in the hunt and in warfare. The former transwomen were, apparently, highly desired by warriors as wives. Another nation a little further west was awfully homophobic. There was a nation in which young adolescent braves practiced bullying upon less-accomplished warriors that could be sexual (I probably wouldn't complain :smallwink:). & all across the spectrum, depending on the nation: I can't recall any more specifics off the top of my head.

[Al'izh'dheg]

So I'm hopefully going to be playing a TG character in D&D fairly soon. I'm playing an illusion specialist, and so I had the idea of a girl who has Disguise Self up 24/7 to hide the fact that she's physically male. Then I looked at Disguise Self and found it had duration 1 minute per level. So hopefully the DM will let me have a second level version that lasts 2 hours per level.

You could always spend some coin on having a higher level mage make it permanent through the Permanency spell. Not sure if you're looking to roleplay the switching back and forth part though, so that may not suit your needs.

[noparlpf]

That's pretty neat. It's good to know that not everybody is as homo/transphobic as the Western world.


One can't make any generalizations about this kind of thing: "Native American" is about as specific a category as "Asian".

Of course not; I simple said "native American" for lack of a more specific label.

[Kneenibble]

That wasn't a jab at you, love -- just a blanket caution for a common mistake.

& many nations were just as homo & transphobic as "the Western world." But that's a bad generalization to make, too.

Regarding historical transwomen: I give you the gift of le Chevalier d'Eon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevalier_d'Eon) (whom I played in the play "Monsieur d'Eon is a Woman" in '09 :smallsmile:).

[noparlpf]

That wasn't a jab at you, love -- just a blanket caution for a common mistake.

& many nations were just as homo & transphobic as "the Western world." But that's a bad generalization to make, too.

Regarding historical transwomen: I give you the gift of le Chevalier d'Eon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevalier_d'Eon) (whom I played in the play "Monsieur d'Eon is a Woman" in '09 :smallsmile:).

Yeah, I suppose so. My experience with history is so limited that I probably shouldn't make generalizations.

Was d'Eon actually trans? That Wikipedia article isn't very detailed, and consistently uses male pronouns.

[Coidzor]

Yora, what you refer to is the title Two-Spirited. It is actually a modern appellation that some aboriginal people use as an alternative to LGBT -- many acronyms in my part of Canada, having a high(er than normal) urban aboriginal population, include TS for that reason. It's not historically based whatsoever, though, and came about in the cultural studies discourse of the 1970s.

...Well, that's an amusing bit of rebellion against the overculture if that's the case.


One can't make any generalizations about this kind of thing: "Native American" is about as specific a category as "Asian."

Hence why I said I'd heard of one such culture. Probably apocryphal, but I'm a pessimist when I'm not an optimist.


There was a nation in which young adolescent braves practiced bullying upon less-accomplished warriors that could be sexual (I probably wouldn't complain :smallwink:).

That's a horrible thing to say. :smalleek:

[Kneenibble]

It's not the worst thing I've said on these forums, by far.


Was d'Eon actually trans? That Wikipedia article isn't very detailed, and consistently uses male pronouns.

That's a debate right there. d'Eon predates any kind of transgender discourse, and likely the historians who study him-her are not particularly sympathetic. He -- she -- was born male and lived the second half of her life as a female, though, without recourse to surgery or hormone therapy. - besides being an extraordinary and fascinating human being for other reasons too.

To be honest my mind muddles up the play and the actual historical sources.

[Heliomance]

It is, ce said:

Ick, I don't like the artificial gender neutral pronouns. I'd far rather mix and match! :P

[Coidzor]

It's not the worst thing I've said on these forums, by far.

I'd say that I haven't seen you say anything actually bad until now, as the only things that even came close to toeing the line were of a very clear non-seriousness, jocular nature. You can't or really shouldn't be tongue in cheek or jocular about that kind of thing. :smallannoyed:

So, no, I would contend that you haven't unless you meant to say something completely different to what was transmitted.

[Al'izh'dheg]

I'd say that I haven't seen you say anything actually bad until now, as the only things that even came close to toeing the line were of a very clear non-seriousness, jocular nature. You can't or really shouldn't be tongue in cheek or jocular about that kind of thing. :smallannoyed:

So, no, I would contend that you haven't unless you meant to say something completely different to what was transmitted.

This is most likely a miscommunication hon. I don't know Kneenibble to be malicious in any way, shape, or form.

I've been busy at my new job the last 2 days though, so I can't comment directly. I will just say the benefit of doubt may need to be extended. ;)

[Arachu]

I try to remember to use deodorant, but it's rarely effective once I've actually started sweating (I'm not sure if :smallfrown: or :smallmad: would fit best here).

Fortunately I don't sweat very often (as I am lazy).

@ Coidzor: I think Kneenibble's statement referred to him personally - it carried some unfortunate implications, but I don't think they were intended.

I suppose if they were intended it'd be rather insensitive, but if that's the case [no comment].


I remember those days...I've actually had relatives offer me 50 USD to get a haircut.

My mom started at $10 and didn't give up until $200 (she's kind of immature). Come to think of it, I actually got video games out of it growing up... That's not even remotely worth it, though.

I tried growing it in high school, but my dad had a nightmare that featured me with a ponytail. :roy:


Synesthesia seems to be pretty common around here. Pretty cool! Numbers have shapes, for me. Or, more properly, volume. Primes are long, awkward sticks that try to fold over but can't; composites are rectangles and squares and prisms, sometimes with more than three dimensions. Trying to think of a number like 64 makes my brain kind of hurt because it's got so many facets and it keeps on flipping from one configuration into another, and I can't see its true shape because there are too many dimensions.

I have no idea whether that's synesthesia or just the effect of a visual thinker's understanding of numbers. I think it's probably the latter, because I didn't start thinking of numbers this way until my early teens and didn't get the hang of multiplication until I did. Either way, I like it. It gives me an intuitive understanding of higher math--calculus, statistics, linear algebra and such. You can visualize a lot of that stuff as shapes rather than numbers. I never did get into tensors, though. That's where my math ability peters out, I think.

I feel kind of jealous of people who have music/color synesthesia. It must be like getting a free light show every time they listen to music...

Lucky. It took me months just to comprehend the hypercube. :roach:

I've tried simulating synesthesia in my head, but it seems that that's rather difficult. Judging by the way my voice makes my throat feel... I think it would be brownish? Hm...


My roommate from last year is one of the guys who doesn't keep his hair neat. It's not very long, but it's long enough that it would probably look better if he combed it occasionally and washed it a bit more often. I've known some guys with incredibly nasty hair, and personally I think that any hair with too many products in it is kind of gross (I'm looking at you, 90% of the girls from high school).
I personally have fairly short hair now, at least compared to what I'm used to. I cut off around 18", or about 45 cm, back in April, and I'm still not used to it. Now it's only down to about my breast pocket (at least it is when I wear shirts with breast pockets). I take good care of it and it is very nice.

How does one measure hair? I'm tempted to just hold some of it apart from my head and measure it, but it would probably vary from place to place...


I don't know about you, but at a certain point, my hair starts to curl at the ends slightly, which really hides how long it's getting. Then it grows past that and becomes obviously Long.

Mine was doing that after covering my ears, but only on one side - I think I was sleeping on it.

It would have looked kind of neat, if it were on the side I parted the rest of my hair to (left).


In relevant news, I went to the LGBT society (or Qsoc) room today for tea. It was a bit awkward because I didn't know anyone, and two of the guys said slut-shaming things (not to me or anyone there, about a girl in someone's class), which bothered me, but the committee members were really nice, and I bought an AIDS awareness ribbon.

In irrelevant news, I wish that I could drink tea because it's associated with smart people. :smalltongue:

I also wish I could have talked to someone about it in school - my (close) friends knew about my bisexuality, but they obviously had some misconceptions about what that means. "You'll end up choosing one or the other", "sex isn't everything", that sort of thing.*

It was usually kind of annoying, but my response to 'you have to be with a man before you know you're into them' still amuses me to this day.

* - (The former isn't even an issue - if I 'choose' then I've 'chosen', you see. The second one was a bit of a misinterpretation of what I was actually saying, though I admit it was a justified conclusion to draw.)

[Yora]

Yora, what you refer to is the title Two-Spirited. It is actually a modern appellation that some aboriginal people use as an alternative to LGBT -- many acronyms in my part of Canada, having a high(er than normal) urban aboriginal population, include TS for that reason. It's not historically based whatsoever, though, and came about in the cultural studies discourse of the 1970s.
I have been really thinking about adding a sentence that I got that info from a rather old book from a time where I wouldn't put my hand into the fire for any type of cultural science publications, but thought that might get to far into showing off my cultural studies education. :smallbiggrin:

[Darklady2831]

Has this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_TBd-UCwVAY) been posted yet? It made me go all 'Dawwww!' which basically nothing ever manages.

I know this is late, but EEP~ Now I'm more lonely :( Why can't I find a boyfriend. :smallfrown:

[Eldest]

Lucky. It took me months just to comprehend the hypercube. :roach:


Why? It's just the different steps up. Point-line-square-cube-tesseract-etc.

Also, I have similar hair to who ever it was that said as it gets longer it curls (can't remember), but I still haven't gotten to the point where it gets past the curl. It's getting close, though

[Kneenibble]

I'd say that I haven't seen you say anything actually bad until now, as the only things that even came close to toeing the line were of a very clear non-seriousness, jocular nature. You can't or really shouldn't be tongue in cheek or jocular about that kind of thing. :smallannoyed:

So, no, I would contend that you haven't unless you meant to say something completely different to what was transmitted.

Actually in retrospect, what came across was a little grosser than I meant. The joke was that I wouldn't complain about being pushed around a little and objectified by some sexy buckskin-clad warriors. Ooh yeah, ride down my valley and hunt my buffalo.

No semantic trespass into the realm of ephebophilia or sexual abuse was intended. I apologize.


I have been really thinking about adding a sentence that I got that info from a rather old book from a time where I wouldn't put my hand into the fire for any type of cultural science publications, but thought that might get to far into showing off my cultural studies education. :smallbiggrin:

Okay fair enough (please show off your education, I will touch it), but maybe I'm not using the right words. I mean the kind of various minority studies discourse that came around in the 70s, that was often useful and lucid and often really freaking weird. Or is that what you meant?


This is most likely a miscommunication hon. I don't know Kneenibble to be malicious in any way, shape, or form.

I've been busy at my new job the last 2 days though, so I can't comment directly. I will just say the benefit of doubt may need to be extended. ;)

You, madame, are a sweetie. :smalltongue:

What's the new job if I may ask?

[golentan]

Actually in retrospect, what came across was a little grosser than I meant. The joke was that I wouldn't complain about being pushed around a little and objectified by some sexy buckskin-clad warriors. Ooh yeah, ride down my valley and hunt my buffalo.

No semantic trespass into the realm of ephebophilia or sexual abuse was intended. I apologize.

Okay, that's much better than it sounded at first in my mind.

...

Can I show you my hunting spear?

[H Birchgrove]

Oops, ambiguous wording there. I meant I don't think he'll bring up the belt of gender changing.

Oh, that's not so bad I guess.

[Arachu]

[insert joke about knife sharpening]


Why? It's just the different steps up. Point-line-square-cube-tesseract-etc.

Because I have very harsh expectations of myself - I understood the concept and how the hypercube is defined pretty quickly, but I didn't say that I got the shape itself until I could picture it spinning and grasp the idea of multiple cubes being in the 'same' place.

... Come to think of it, that might have counted...

*angrily stares at Rubik's Cube anyway*


Also, I have similar hair to who ever it was that said as it gets longer it curls (can't remember), but I still haven't gotten to the point where it gets past the curl. It's getting close, though

I have a cousin who'd grow an afro if he grew it out. Mine is almost unnaturally straight, but I like it that way.

[Eldest]

Because I have very harsh expectations of myself - I understood the concept and how the hypercube is defined pretty quickly, but I didn't say that I got the shape itself until I could picture it spinning and grasp the idea of multiple cubes being in the 'same' place.

... Come to think of it, that might have counted...

*angrily stares at Rubik's Cube anyway*


I found the concept in... some book. Hm.
*googles*
A Wrinkle In Time, and the various sequels. It made sense at the time, and then I saw a picture of a tesseract and it just clicked. The higher ones are far harder to visualize.

[Kneenibble]

Okay, that's much better than it sounded at first in my mind.

...

Can I show you my hunting spear?

Just careful where you stab me, that you not ruin the pelt. :smallamused:

[blackfox]

music/color synesthesiaKind of. It's more like the color is part of the sound than it being a thing designed for the sound, that might not correlate whatsoever.
Argh I should say an on-topic thing but do not know what to say, wat do

[Worira]

Quick talk about breasts

[Arachu]

It seems that my chest is the only part of me that isn't losing weight (which would be neater if I didn't have a Slavic ribcage).

EDIT: That would be less awkward if it weren't at the top of the page...

[Eurus]

Quick talk about breasts

They're pretty great, eh?

[bluewind95]

Quick talk about breasts

I hate mine. I want them to go away. :smallfrown:

[Nix Nihila]

I kind of understand what you mean, Nix. While I don't associate words with colours myself, the colours make me think of a certain "feel", as it were, and I can imagine speech patterns that would produce the same "feel". It's kinda hard to explain in words, it's association on a very conceptual level.

ION, just walked into a computer lab at my uni library and saw a book on the side called "Undoing Gender". Amused me slightly, for no good reason.

Interesting. As in tactile feelings? Or emotional feelings?

And am I the only one who wants to read that book?



I'm terrible at drawing, so that's out, and fashion is one of those human foibles I fail to understand, so that's out too. I could probably go into medicine without much academic difficulty, but I'm probably too squeamish. So, like most of my other talents, this one will probably go to waste. Anyway, it's probably just observation.

D:

Fashion is not a foible! It's lovely. Just like any other form of art. Unfortunately, it's rather commercial, and there's a tendency to invalidate alternative forms of fashion.

EDIT: Oh.. Or do you mean it like eccentricity?


They're pretty great, eh?

They are! But I'm unfortunately lacking in that department. I want boobs. :smallfrown:

@^ :smallfrown: Trade?

[Triscuitable]

Quick talk about breasts

Those things used to supply infants with the nutrients they require, and reel in men like salmon to a lure. I don't see any physical need for them. I guess some people see them as a defining trait, but isn't that what the face is for?

Thought I'd ask, anyone here find it hard to relate to people, so you went to animals instead? I'd just like to say that I have two cats who spend most of their time around me, because I'm not hyperactive. These two are so easy to relate to. Funny thing is, on top of all this, they're gay. Yes, I have two gay cats. :smallamused:

[Odentin]

Thought I'd ask, anyone here find it hard to relate to people, so you went to animals instead? I'd just like to say that I have two cats who spend most of their time around me, because I'm not hyperactive. These two are so easy to relate to. Funny thing is, on top of all this, they're gay. Yes, I have two gay cats. :smallamused:

My cousin has always been like that. Incredibly antisocial, can't handle relationships or human contact for too long without losing his mind.

On the other hand, he's always been great with animals, content just to spend time with his cows, pigs, etc.

Right now he lives out in Beverly Hills, alone in a cabin with a bunch of goats. And he's the happiest he's been in years...

[Nix Nihila]

I'm curious. Do you guys think that trans people should reveal their status as trans before casual sex? I think it's fairly clear that something like that should be revealed in a long term relationship, but it seems that it's rather controversial when it comes to one-night-stands.

I'm of the opinion that in this case, it should not be the responsibility of the trans person to reveal that they are trans. If someone doesn't want to sleep with a trans person for whatever reason, I think they ought to make that clear before sleeping with someone, and not just assume that everybody is cis. But apparently it would be seen as insulting to ask someone whether or not they're trans, so people don't want to do that (it makes me rather sad that it would be seen as insulting).

Was just curious what all of you lovely people thought on the matter.

[Triscuitable]

I'm curious. Do you guys think that trans people should reveal their status as trans before casual sex? I think it's fairly clear that something like that should be revealed in a long term relationship, but it seems that it's rather controversial when it comes to one-night-stands.

I'm of the opinion that in this case, it should not be the responsibility of the trans person to reveal that they are trans. If someone doesn't want to sleep with a trans person for whatever reason, I think they ought to make that clear before sleeping with someone, and not just assume that everybody is cis. But apparently it would be seen as insulting to ask someone whether or not they're trans, so people don't want to do that (it makes me rather sad that it would be seen as insulting).

Was just curious what all of you lovely people thought on the matter.

Were I to be approached for casual sex, I would display my right hand's middle finger prominently. It's not an insult, rather I have the black ring to symbolize my sexuality. They wouldn't bother past that.

[Knaight]

I'm curious. Do you guys think that trans people should reveal their status as trans before casual sex? I think it's fairly clear that something like that should be revealed in a long term relationship, but it seems that it's rather controversial when it comes to one-night-stands.

My understanding is that casual sex is usually done nude, and as such most trans people don't have a choice in the matter, given how few actually are able to get all the surgeries, hormone treatments, etc. needed to not be visibly trans once fully nude. Now, if you mean before entering into the social contract to perform casual sex later, I would say no. If the other person involved has an issue with transgendered people and failed to bring it up, that is their problem.

[Triscuitable]

Here's my two cents:

People will feel possibly weirded out or frustrated with you if you were to "do the deed" and then learn you're trans. It's best to tell them for the purpose of not lying to them, or just not do it.

[Coidzor]

I'm curious. Do you guys think that trans people should reveal their status as trans before casual sex? I think it's fairly clear that something like that should be revealed in a long term relationship, but it seems that it's rather controversial when it comes to one-night-stands.

Considering the all-too-real risk of physical violence... If not yes, then only in a context and setting where there's no question of something untoward happening if they get naked and then get rejected.

If the other party can't tell through physical examination and sexual intercourse, then I don't see any issues for something that's only ever going to be casual. Unless we're talking casual sex with friends, then things get a bit muddier, though I suppose it'd just fall under the aegis of how one deals with one's friends anyway.


Were I to be approached for casual sex, I would display my right hand's middle finger prominently. It's not an insult, rather I have the black ring to symbolize my sexuality. They wouldn't bother past that.

You mean it's both and very few people would understand the black ring and would just take the middle finger at face value. As was likely intended by the people who started the practice. :smalltongue:

Heck, a simple google search doesn't yield anything about black rings being a symbol of any sexuality. I had to specifically search for asexuality first before I'd get anything.

[Triscuitable]

You mean it's both and very few people would understand the black ring and would just take the middle finger at face value. As was likely intended by the people who started the practice. :smalltongue:

Heck, a simple google search doesn't yield anything about black rings being a symbol of any sexuality. I had to specifically search for asexuality first before I'd get anything.

I don't think they intended it to be flipping the bird when people showed it. I mean like fold my fingers to show it, not give them the tweet of evil.

[Arachu]

Maybe a white ring with the word "ASEXUAL" written on it (or "NO ADMISSION")?


Those things used to supply infants with the nutrients they require, and reel in men like salmon to a lure. I don't see any physical need for them. I guess some people see them as a defining trait, but isn't that what the face is for?

From an evolutionary standpoint, breasts are both tools with which to feed infants and signs of fertility. Having them implies that one's descendants will also have them (though I doubt that that's always true).

Psychologically, however, we aren't instinctually aware that genes exist to begin with, so it seems more likely (to me) that a couple of generations observed that correlation and told their sons that large breasts were preferable to get the point across.

Considering that sexual intercourse is itself instinctual, however, the first case may be default.

Personally, I think it's the softness. (And/or a deeply-ingrained desire to best one's father by acquiring larger breasts than he could. :smalltongue:)



Thought I'd ask, anyone here find it hard to relate to people, so you went to animals instead? I'd just like to say that I have two cats who spend most of their time around me, because I'm not hyperactive. These two are so easy to relate to. Funny thing is, on top of all this, they're gay. Yes, I have two gay cats. :smallamused:

Oh, all the time. I'm asocial and my face and tone don't convey my emotions very effectively, but I can pet dogs/cats so I can be much more affectionate towards them (both for societal and psychological reasons).

Plus, I have freakin' claws (which are another thing people call feminine in an attempt to get me to keep them short).

("Dogs are my brothers, cats are my cousins and humans are pending", or whatever it was I said a while back.)

[Kittenwolf]

Now, if you mean before entering into the social contract to perform casual sex later, I would say no. If the other person involved has an issue with transgendered people and failed to bring it up, that is their problem.

I can understand where people are coming from with "if the other party has a problem, it's up to them to say so", but just to play devil's advocate, what if it's not up to them?

What if a Trans person meets a person of a specific religion that forbids sex with the "same" gender?
*Deleted*
Ok, I did have a bunch of essay-style stuff here but it got kind of convoluted, lets do that in a short, dot point method:
1) FtM trans person meets a girl in a bar. They get along well, and decide to head back to the girl's place for "Coffee"
2) Girl is part of Religion X. Religion X bans same-gender, well, sex.
3) Some time ago BigWig Joe (Religion X's leader) declared that 'gender' is determined by your birth genitalia, so in Religion X's eyes a FtM trans is Female.
4) Our bar girl personally thinks this is dumb, but BigWig Joe's word is law, so she goes along with it.
5) FtM trans and Bar Girl have a great, steamy night together and go on their merry way.
6) Bar Girl has now, from Religion X's point of view, sinned and is now going to hell

Who bears responsibility for this? Is it the responsibility of the trans person to tell their sexual partners "By the way, I'm trans" or is it the responsibility of the bar girl to ask her sexual partners "By the way, you're not trans are you?"

I realise this is hypothetical and a pretty far-out one at that, but hopefully it gets the meaning across.

[Triscuitable]

Maybe a white ring with the word "ASEXUAL" written on it (or "NO ADMISSION")?

:smallamused: I just know I can find a site that I can buy a pearl ring off of, with a custom engraving.




From an evolutionary standpoint, breasts are both tools with which to feed infants and signs of fertility. Having them implies that one's descendants will also have them (though I doubt that that's always true).

Let me tell you an interesting fact. Out of 8 children born in my family this generation, only one has been a girl: my sister.



Psychologically, however, we aren't instinctually aware that genes exist to begin with, so it seems more likely (to me) that a couple of generations observed that correlation and told their sons that large breasts were preferable to get the point across.

Considering that sexual intercourse is itself instinctual, however, the first case may be default.

Not for me! It's a matter of yucky private parts! :smalltongue:



Personally, I think it's the softness. (And/or a deeply-ingrained desire to best one's father by acquiring larger breasts than he could. :smalltongue:)

CrossFit. I do it, my mom does it. My dad does it. And oh dear lord, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vhJza-2xiI) it hurts so much. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_Dq_NCzj8M)

[Coidzor]

I realise this is hypothetical and a pretty far-out one at that, but hopefully it gets the meaning across.

Indeed, things get more complicated the more parties have a stake in the bedroom.

[Kittenwolf]

Indeed, things get more complicated the more parties have a stake in the bedroom.

... my brain has just gone immediately to vampires and Buffy *heathump* :smallsmile:

[bluewind95]

They are! But I'm unfortunately lacking in that department. I want boobs. :smallfrown:

@^ :smallfrown: Trade?

If I could, I'd GLADLY trade.

[Arachu]

:smallamused: I just know I can find a site that I can buy a pearl ring off of, with a custom engraving.

Why dance on eggshells when you can just write "NO" on your middle finger?


Let me tell you an interesting fact. Out of 8 children born in my family this generation, only one has been a girl: my sister.

Out of 1 child born in my family only about half were female. :smalltongue:

I do admit that not specifying "'female' descendants" is out of character for me, though. I'm usually more obsessive than that.


CrossFit. I do it, my mom does it. My dad does it. And oh dear lord, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vhJza-2xiI) it hurts so much. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_Dq_NCzj8M)

OH DEAR GOD SOMEONE BURN THE MEMORY FROM MY BRAIN

*ahem* I'm glad my father and physical therapist didn't know about that... I've done every part of that first one (but never all at once like that), and I ended up with an aversion to traditional workout methods (and a phobia of treadmills, but that's another matter).

I also did the second one... Maybe a year back. That one wasn't quite as bad. I bet I'd be all over that now. My legs are much stronger than they need to be.

... If I do do that, I may want to watch out for the low ceiling...

[Heliomance]

[insert joke about knife sharpening]



Because I have very harsh expectations of myself - I understood the concept and how the hypercube is defined pretty quickly, but I didn't say that I got the shape itself until I could picture it spinning and grasp the idea of multiple cubes being in the 'same' place.

Now try and imagine a torus with a major axis of zero, but still acting like a torus and not a sphere.

[Arachu]

Now try and imagine a torus with a major axis of zero, but still acting like a torus and not a sphere.

Kind of looks like a bunch of Slinkies mating. :smallconfused:

EDIT: I should have said "and that's where Slinkies come from"... Yeah, that would have been clever.

[The Succubus]

:smallamused: I just know I can find a site that I can buy a pearl ring off of, with a custom engraving.

Or perhaps a "STOP" sign picked out in rubies and silver? :smallbiggrin:

[Serpentine]

So I'm hopefully going to be playing a TG character in D&D fairly soon. I'm playing an illusion specialist, and so I had the idea of a girl who has Disguise Self up 24/7 to hide the fact that she's physically male. Then I looked at Disguise Self and found it had duration 1 minute per level. So hopefully the DM will let me have a second level version that lasts 2 hours per level.I'm playing a character who likes to pretend to be a very old man. He uses mundane make-up and stuff, but also my DM let me homebrew a spell:

AGE SELF
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 hour/level
You stare into your mirror and mutter to yourself, then draw your hands over your face and your hair. Your creases deepen, grey appears in your hair, and suddenly you look 15 years older.
You make yourself look younger or older than you actually are. You appear up to 10 years + 1/level older or younger (to a minimum of birth).
This spell does not affect your physical abilities, voice, equipment, perceived tactile properties or anything else, just appearance.
This spell gives you a +10 bonus to Trickery checks to seem older or younger (or, for example, more or less feeble) than you are. It does not disguise your features or render you unrecognisable from anyone who knows you.
A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.

It's lower level than Disguise Self, despite its much longer duration, because it doesn't actually make you look like someone else, just a different version of you. Anyone who knew what you look like would recognise you. I don't think a similar spell that simply makes you look like an opposite-sexed version of yourself would be unreasonable.


I'm curious. Do you guys think that trans people should reveal their status as trans before casual sex? I think it's fairly clear that something like that should be revealed in a long term relationship, but it seems that it's rather controversial when it comes to one-night-stands.

I'm of the opinion that in this case, it should not be the responsibility of the trans person to reveal that they are trans. If someone doesn't want to sleep with a trans person for whatever reason, I think they ought to make that clear before sleeping with someone, and not just assume that everybody is cis. But apparently it would be seen as insulting to ask someone whether or not they're trans, so people don't want to do that (it makes me rather sad that it would be seen as insulting).

Was just curious what all of you lovely people thought on the matter.The vast majority of people are cis. It is not an unreasonable assumption by any stretch of the imagination.
I think that in the case of pre-/non-op it would be best to be brought up sometime ahead of time, to avoid unpleasant surprises for both parties, and simple misunderstandings and similar. Post-op... I don't know enough about the results to say for sure. Probably I think there wouldn't be any need to bring it up.
Note that I don't think it's a bad thing and it shouldn't be an "unpleasant surprise". I just don't think "naked and horny" is a particularly good time to be trying to challenge someone's ingrained prejudices and ideologies.

[Kittenwolf]

I just don't think "naked and horny" is a particularly good time to be trying to challenge someone's ingrained prejudices and ideologies.

That's so sig worthy :)

[noparlpf]

That's a debate right there. d'Eon predates any kind of transgender discourse, and likely the historians who study him-her are not particularly sympathetic. He -- she -- was born male and lived the second half of her life as a female, though, without recourse to surgery or hormone therapy. - besides being an extraordinary and fascinating human being for other reasons too.

To be honest my mind muddles up the play and the actual historical sources.

It's times like this that historical things are actually sort of interesting and I wish history classes taught trivia like this instead of all the stuff about wars and politics.


My mom started at $10 and didn't give up until $200 (she's kind of immature). Come to think of it, I actually got video games out of it growing up... That's not even remotely worth it, though.

I tried growing it in high school, but my dad had a nightmare that featured me with a ponytail. :roy:

Jeez, that's a lot of money. My mother never had an issue with my hair as long as I kept it clean and neat. My father got over it eventually. It was mostly the older generations asking me to cut it.


How does one measure hair? I'm tempted to just hold some of it apart from my head and measure it, but it would probably vary from place to place...

It does vary somewhat. I just measured the part we cut off and it was about 18". If I were to attempt to measure the hair on my head I'd probably spend several minutes measuring locks of hair from random parts of my head and then I'd average the numbers.


Because I have very harsh expectations of myself - I understood the concept and how the hypercube is defined pretty quickly, but I didn't say that I got the shape itself until I could picture it spinning and grasp the idea of multiple cubes being in the 'same' place.

... Come to think of it, that might have counted...

*angrily stares at Rubik's Cube anyway*

I think I first encountered the tesseract in a short story by Heinlein... "And He Built a Crooked House".
I have a vague image of it in my head, which was helped by building a 3D model of it instead of just looking at the 2D models of 3D models that Wikipedia has.
I have a whole shelf of Rubik's Cubes right behind me...the 5x5x5 one keeps mocking me for never having finished it.


Quick talk about breasts

The breast is the upper ventral region of the torso of a primate, in left and right sides, which in a female contains the mammary gland that secretes milk used to feed infants.



D:

Fashion is not a foible! It's lovely. Just like any other form of art. Unfortunately, it's rather commercial, and there's a tendency to invalidate alternative forms of fashion.

EDIT: Oh.. Or do you mean it like eccentricity?

Umm...maybe more like eccentricity. I'm not quite sure. Fashion as art is kind of neat, but what I meant was that I don't understand the need to ornament oneself (though I can understand things like a devout Christian wearing a cross or Triscuitable's ring, where there's some meaning besides just the appearance of it). I dress pretty practically--I wear brown cargo pants, most of my t-shirts were free or purchased by other people, and my shoes are over two years old and all that's holding them together is my faith in them. (That and the heavy-duty string I've sewn them back together with.)
And fashion as this lady wearing what appears to be a tent (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1075/1149615959_400baac7cd.jpg) is something I completely fail to understand.


You mean it's both and very few people would understand the black ring and would just take the middle finger at face value. As was likely intended by the people who started the practice. :smalltongue:

Heck, a simple google search doesn't yield anything about black rings being a symbol of any sexuality. I had to specifically search for asexuality first before I'd get anything.

I'd never heard of this before, but it's an amusing coincidence that I recently considered wearing a black ring for exactly that reason.
As for my Google search, I typed in "black rings symbolism" and the first link was about asexuality. The second gave several possible answers, one of which was a symbol of equality in marriage, and a refusal to marry until LGBT+ people are allowed equal rights with regards to marriage.

[Serpentine]

It's times like this that historical things are actually sort of interesting and I wish history classes taught trivia like this instead of all the stuff about wars and politics.University history is da bomb. I even did an assignment all about ancient Roman sexuality. I don't think any transexuality-type stuff came up, but I have absolutely no doubt such classes exist, and such topics will increase in frequency with time.
I think "sexuality history" or similar is even a Thing, along with "black history", "women's history" and "gender history".

[noparlpf]

University history is da bomb. I even did an assignment all about ancient Roman sexuality. I don't think any transexuality-type stuff came up, but I have absolutely no doubt such classes exist, and such topics will increase in frequency with time.
I think "sexuality history" or similar is even a Thing, along with "black history", "women's history" and "gender history".

Hmm. Registration for next semester is next week, I think. Actually, I'm supposed to meet with my adviser this afternoon to talk about it. I'm at a very small school, so I'm pretty sure we don't have anything like that. We have very few history classes at all.

[KenderWizard]

Well, if you're going to nitpick aboout it... :smallwink:

So there! :smalltongue:


Ick, I don't like the artificial gender neutral pronouns. I'd far rather mix and match! :P

But there was only one pronoun needed and I couldn't decide! :smallfrown: I'm sorry!


I'm curious. Do you guys think that trans people should reveal their status as trans before casual sex? I think it's fairly clear that something like that should be revealed in a long term relationship, but it seems that it's rather controversial when it comes to one-night-stands.

I'm of the opinion that in this case, it should not be the responsibility of the trans person to reveal that they are trans. If someone doesn't want to sleep with a trans person for whatever reason, I think they ought to make that clear before sleeping with someone, and not just assume that everybody is cis. But apparently it would be seen as insulting to ask someone whether or not they're trans, so people don't want to do that (it makes me rather sad that it would be seen as insulting).

Was just curious what all of you lovely people thought on the matter.

I'm not sure, because I don't like the idea of casual sex At All, because you have to get at least a bit naked and also very close and how are you supposed to know you can trust some person you found in a bar? They could do anything! Anyway, if I did end up having casual sex with someone, and they turned out to have the opposite equipment than I was expecting, I would be very surprised and thrown off, same as if they were unexpectedly anything else, especially something pretty relevant to the activity at hand. Like if I was with a guy who turned out to be FtM, that would change the kind of sex I was expecting to have. This scenario is so far away from anything I would do in real life, though, it's kind of weirding me out to think about. Anyway, from the trans person's point of view, surely you wouldn't like to have sex with someone who turned out to be anti-trans, so it's better to bring it up?

[Serpentine]

Like if I was with a guy who turned out to be FtM, that would change the kind of sex I was expecting to have.I was thinking about including this aspect, but I couldn't work out how to word it. Turns out it's really simple...

[Callista]

I don't see how anyone in the world would want to have sex with someone they couldn't trust enough to tell them they were trans beforehand. And it's not like they wouldn't find out anyway. Taking off your pants seems like kind of an odd way to come out.

Then again, I'm quite a traditionalist. Sex is a very intimate thing that I don't think should even take place between people who aren't in a committed relationship. I can't really insist on it much because I'm ace and that kind of puts me outside the circle of relevance for the issue; but I've seen too many people hurt because they rushed into it too early and had their hearts broken. Some of them were people who married too quickly; others started having sex too early in the relationship; but whichever way it happened, I've never seen it end well.

[Odentin]

That's why they mentioned "casual" sex, meaning sex with someone whom you're NOT in any kind of relationship with. Sex without any kind of emotional connection is, for some, quite a thrill, if even just for the orgasm(s).

I think most will agree that in a dedicated relationship, open communication is key. For casual sexual encounters, though? I don't think it needs to come up, at all. For hook-ups and one night stands, there's going to be a lot the other person doesn't know about you, and it's very unlikely that an emotional connection is going to be made, so why should it be necessary to reveal something so personal and emotional?

[Heliomance]

So there! :smalltongue:



But there was only one pronoun needed and I couldn't decide! :smallfrown: I'm sorry!

It's fine, you haven't offended me! :P


That's why they mentioned "casual" sex, meaning sex with someone whom you're NOT in any kind of relationship with. Sex without any kind of emotional connection is, for some, quite a thrill, if even just for the orgasm(s).

I think most will agree that in a dedicated relationship, open communication is key. For casual sexual encounters, though? I don't think it needs to come up, at all. For hook-ups and one night stands, there's going to be a lot the other person doesn't know about you, and it's very unlikely that an emotional connection is going to be made, so why should it be necessary to reveal something so personal and emotional?

Uh... because if you're planning on your genitals doing things with their genitals, and you genitals don't match what they're expecting, it could be bad?

[Mono Vertigo]

My 2 cents: seconding KenderWizard.
It's casual sex, therefore the purpose is not mutual understanding, but that both parties have an enjoyable session of sex (duh). Genitals are generally involved in sexual intercourse, therefore it is wise to inform your partner beforehand if, for whatever reason, your genitals don't match what is expected from your general appearance, or have any particularity. It is a matter of respect for both parts. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with not finding sex with a physically male/female person enjoyable. Similarly, I suppose I would enjoy if my partner told me beforehand about the presence of piercings at particular locations and such. Big surprises are rarely good whenever sex is involved.

But what do I know about casual sex. :smallyuk:

[Nix Nihila]

I suppose I should have made it known that I was curious specifically about cases where the person is post-op and completely passable as their preferred gender (including genitals, and yes, I realize that this is usually not going to be the case).



The vast majority of people are cis. It is not an unreasonable assumption by any stretch of the imagination.

Out of curiosity (and do let me know if I'm coming across as hostile, sometimes I do in cases like these, and it is certainly not my intention), would you say that it is reasonable to assume that all people are heterosexual? If not, how low does the percentage of the population that has quality x have to be for it to be reasonable to assume that any particular person you interact with does not have it?

[Heliomance]

Out of curiosity (and do let me know if I'm coming across as hostile, sometimes I do in cases like these, and it is certainly not my intention), would you say that it is reasonable to assume that all people are heterosexual? If not, how low does the percentage of the population that has quality x have to be for it to be reasonable to assume that any particular person you interact with does not have it?

Ah, but that's the kind of thing that is likely to be noticed earlier. If someone isn't interested in your presented gender through being homosexual, they won't respond to your initial advances, and the situation will stop before it gets to the "we're naked and I'm not liking what I'm seeing" stage.

In the case where the transperson in question can pass perfectly even naked, I'd say it's none of anyone's damned business unless the transperson decided to tell them.

[Al'izh'dheg]

I suppose I should have made it known that I was curious specifically about cases where the person is post-op and completely passable as their preferred gender (including genitals, and yes, I realize that this is usually not going to be the case).



Out of curiosity (and do let me know if I'm coming across as hostile, sometimes I do in cases like these, and it is certainly not my intention), would you say that it is reasonable to assume that all people are heterosexual? If not, how low does the percentage of the population that has quality x have to be for it to be reasonable to assume that any particular person you interact with does not have it?

Ah, this is different than your original question then. I was originally going to respond by asking if you've seen The Crying Game. Chances of violence or religious violations aside, I don't think anybody would want to deal with somebody getting violently ill when you disrobe. It's a bit of a blow to the ego (one that I don't think my fragile ego could take).

I've read that many transgendered folks no longer consider themselves as trans post-op. Once that journey is complete, they feel they have reached their target gender and are comfortable in their own skins. So a transwoman would now be simply a woman and a transman would simply be a man.

Not everybody is like that, buy many are. I would like to think I would fall under than category, and if I were to have casual sex (not bloody likely), I would presumably not consider mentioning it. There would be no reason to.

I don't know all the specifics of a FtM surgery, so I don't know how "passable" the genitalia are post-op. I would suppose that would make a difference as well.

[WarKitty]

Honestly, I feel like it wouldn't be such an issue if people weren't so hung up on how things look. Or if we didn't have such an idea of having to have sex once you've gotten to a certain point.

Way I see it, casual encounters should work more like "let's go somewhere and mess around and see where it goes." Even with the understanding that it's probably going to lead to sex, if at any point someone stops being comfortable they can call the encounter off. No harm done other than maybe a wasted evening.

The issues usually arise when someone's not comfortable with being attracted to a trans* person.

Edit: Mind, this is an "in my ideal world" solution. In the actual world, it's probably best to tell potential partners beforehand, to lower the risk of bigot problems.

[Callista]

Out of curiosity (and do let me know if I'm coming across as hostile, sometimes I do in cases like these, and it is certainly not my intention), would you say that it is reasonable to assume that all people are heterosexual? If not, how low does the percentage of the population that has quality x have to be for it to be reasonable to assume that any particular person you interact with does not have it?Well, if you're a statistician, you can define "unusual" as "5% or less" and very unusual (an outlier) as "0.5% or less". Those are at two and three standard deviations, respectively. Those standards are what we use when we do the numbers to determine whether an experiment has produced results that support our claim. The 0.5% level (a p-value of 0.01) is considered to be pretty dependable--there's only a .5% chance of randomly getting results that support a false claim. So, there's some support for calling something that happens with a frequency of 1:20 or less "unusual".

Uhm. Anyway. So, I guess you could say that being a transsexual is a statistical outlier and thus very unusual; and being gay hovers somewhere around the border of "unusual" (depending on what percentage you use). Statistically, you can say that you don't expect a randomly chosen person to be trans; but you're probably not safe expecting them to be straight--gay plus bi makes more than five percent (8%, I think?), so you'd be wrong too often for it to be a reasonable assumption.

Just remember that being unusual is neither good nor bad. Being an Olympic athlete or a Nobel prizewinner is unusual, too, after all. So is being seven feet tall, working as a tightrope walker, or having six cats...

[Astrella]

Some backtracking, I should just post more regularly methinks. :smalltongue:


It's really useful and you clearly put some effort into it! :smallsmile:

If anyone has anything they want to add to it, by the way, let me know!

Also, I really like holebi!

It is a pretty awesome word. Shame off course trans* isn't included, but then again, it was really hard to find any trans-related resources around here.

Also, happy bebelated birthday! *hugs and cake*
(Sorry for being so late with it. :( )


@ A bit confused: I wish I could help you there, but I think the other posters have said what can be said on the topic.

Well, obviously you can't really help feeling attracted to people and trans folk have romantic interest as well, so that's not really the problem. It could be iffy if you are attracted to someone in a way that doesn't matches their gender identity? (Say, being attracted to a FtM as a girl, rather then as a man. Not saying that's there's anything wrong with that, just that it will make a relationship very difficult and more likely impossible.) And if you're attracted to someone solely because they're trans...? Well, having someone attracted to you over a condition that causes you a lot of anguish isn't a foundation for a healthy relationship. :s


I just got back home. I'm rather exhausted, but very relieved to be getting back into my usual routine.

And I don't know why I forgot to post this before, but happy birthday, Kender!

Glad you got home safely. :smallsmile:


Er, yes, sorry. A combination of depression, busyness, and lack of privacy has made me sort of bad about that. *is feeling guilty*

But yes, it is still happening.

It's okay, don't feel pressured about it.


Hey guys--Does anybody know of a useful resource for terminology? Kind of like the one we have at the beginning of this thread, but more comprehensive. I'm looking especially for things that'll show how terms are used--what circumstances, whether it's considered clinical or slang or offensive or a reclaimed term that is only okay for people to use if they're deliberately using it to be defiant (kind of the way a person might describe themselves as a "crip" to express disability pride). I'm getting interested in this lately and have a blog I've been writing for a long time, so I want to be sure I communicate properly.

Hmmm, I can't really think of an extensive comprehensive list, but you can always ask in the thread if you're unfamiliar with a certain term / not certain what term to use; I'm sure our collective knowledge can be of help.

[Asta Kask]

Out of curiosity (and do let me know if I'm coming across as hostile, sometimes I do in cases like these, and it is certainly not my intention), would you say that it is reasonable to assume that all people are heterosexual? If not, how low does the percentage of the population that has quality x have to be for it to be reasonable to assume that any particular person you interact with does not have it?

That depends a lot on the stakes. If the stakes are "embarassment all around", then that's one thing. If the stakes are "I will rape you and kill you" then that's another thing entirely. So it's not a question to which an unequivocal answer can be given.

[Asta Kask]

Hey guys--Does anybody know of a useful resource for terminology? Kind of like the one we have at the beginning of this thread, but more comprehensive. I'm looking especially for things that'll show how terms are used--what circumstances, whether it's considered clinical or slang or offensive or a reclaimed term that is only okay for people to use if they're deliberately using it to be defiant (kind of the way a person might describe themselves as a "crip" to express disability pride). I'm getting interested in this lately and have a blog I've been writing for a long time, so I want to be sure I communicate properly.

Transgender terms thread (http://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,38783.0.html) on another forum. Posts 2, 3, and 4 are especially relevant. This is the woman who was selected to become one of the Skepchicks, so we're pretty proud of her. :smallsmile:

[Yora]

Out of curiosity (and do let me know if I'm coming across as hostile, sometimes I do in cases like these, and it is certainly not my intention), would you say that it is reasonable to assume that all people are heterosexual? If not, how low does the percentage of the population that has quality x have to be for it to be reasonable to assume that any particular person you interact with does not have it?
I would say under 50%. If more than 50% are x, than x is the default assumption. Of x is lower than 50%, not-x is the default.

[Coidzor]

I suppose I should have made it known that I was curious specifically about cases where the person is post-op and completely passable as their preferred gender (including genitals, and yes, I realize that this is usually not going to be the case).

Is that even possible for FtMs? Last I heard they hadn't even made steps towards constructing the pièce de résistance of physical maleness.


Out of curiosity (and do let me know if I'm coming across as hostile, sometimes I do in cases like these, and it is certainly not my intention), would you say that it is reasonable to assume that all people are heterosexual? If not, how low does the percentage of the population that has quality x have to be for it to be reasonable to assume that any particular person you interact with does not have it?

No. It is, however, about as reasonable an assumption as one can make of one's friends if they're not new and haven't said anything about it yet. One might be wrong, but there's not exactly a whole lot of justification for anger in such a case, so much as, y'know, sharing of information.

Depending upon the area one is in, the common figure given is that 1 in 10 will be non-heteronormative, so if it becomes relevant to one's thoughts and there's no indication to the contrary, it is usually reasonable to assume heteronormativity of a given individual until such time they show otherwise, as there's a roughly 90% chance that such an assessment would be correct.

Somewhere like certain well-known neighbourhoods of San Francisco, those figures change and will even reverse.

But we're not talking about all people, at least, it seems unlikely that we would be, since just knowing that ~10% of all people are going to be non heteronormative means you can't assume all people are. So it seems more likely that we're talking about assessing any given individual. Which makes a 90% chance of being right the safest guess in a vacuum. However, we're not operating in a vacuuum, generally speaking.

So, let's say there's a man in a bar and he is presenting as a man and anyone who would be observing him would note that he is pursuing individuals who are presenting as women exclusively when not regrouping with whatever group he originally came there with. So, any individual that is presenting as a woman is going to be assessed against the total population that would be presenting as a woman. So basically the set of which are going to be ciswomen, transwomen, or non-obvious drag queens. Of this set, heterosexual, ciswomen are going to be, statistically, the overwhelming majority of respondents who respond favorably to him, even assuming that he's going to be equally attractive to all members of that set.

Additionally, any individual presenting as a woman who sets out to pursue him is going to observe his pursuit of individuals presenting as women. Barring certain locales which would influence this, the default assumption of such a man would be that he was interested in ciswomen, otherwise he'd be trying this in one of those aforementioned certain locales which would render the whole scenario moot anyway, since ciswomen don't go to that kind of place in order to have sexual encounters with cismen. So, in light of that, there does seem to be some point where ascertaining what's what is necessary for those who are not living in the best of all possible worlds, even disregarding physical safety. Because if they are living in the best of all possible worlds then the transwoman would be giving him exactly what his behavior stated that he wanted anyway.

I honestly can't think of any friends I've had that haven't indicated a romantic or sexual interest that haven't also indicated their asexuality, so I'm going to hope I'm being respected with honesty from them and take them at face value as whatever their sexuality is. Though I imagine I'd only be all that upset if they were deceiving me if I became interested in them and they didn't settle things diplomatically at the outset.

But, then, I have a pet peeve about ex-girlfriends who lie about being bisexual and then come out and accuse me of lying when I express a sense of being misused when it comes out that they informed everyone but myself of their lesbian status and that they're just using me as a bearded date to their prom that their mother would approve of taking her when I would've done exactly that for her if she had simply asked directly. And then go and date my best friend behind my back while repeatedly reminding him that she's a lesbian and not interested in him in the slightest as a way of controlling his low self esteem. This, of course, kind of expended all of her friendship capital with me, but, of course, because I am a man and straight, I was the bad guy.

So I might be slightly more likely to overreact in terms of getting annoyed with people and their petty deceptions as a result.

On the whole though, I somehow doubt that was what you were asking. So what were you really after?

[Eldest]

I would say under 50%. If more than 50% are x, than x is the default assumption. Of x is lower than 50%, not-x is the default.

So if you work with two "Mr. Smiths" and a "Mrs. White", if you heard footsteps you would call out "Hello Mr. Smith"?
That would be assuming that it is one of the 66% that you work with that are Mr. Smiths, as opposed to the significant minority of Mrs. White.

[Coidzor]

So if you work with two "Mr. Smiths" and a "Mrs. White", if you heard footsteps you would call out "Hello Mr. Smith"?
That would be assuming that it is one of the 66% that you work with that are Mr. Smiths, as opposed to the significant minority of Mrs. White.

And their footsteps all sound the same given the context and one hasn't worked with them long enough to have familiarized one's self with their individual background noises, yeah.

[Eldest]

And their footsteps all sound the same given the context and one hasn't worked with them long enough to have familiarized one's self with their individual background noises, yeah.

Stop messing with my over-simplified example! :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

Stop messing with my over-simplified example! :smalltongue:

But, but, there's factors and modifiers! Modifiers upon modifiers, even. :smalleek: Numbers.... Everywhere.... IA IA FHTAGN!


Honestly, I feel like it wouldn't be such an issue if people weren't so hung up on how things look. Or if we didn't have such an idea of having to have sex once you've gotten to a certain point.

Way I see it, casual encounters should work more like "let's go somewhere and mess around and see where it goes." Even with the understanding that it's probably going to lead to sex, if at any point someone stops being comfortable they can call the encounter off. No harm done other than maybe a wasted evening.

It's not exactly bigoted to be disappointed when one is promised the opportunity of playing with one set of toys and instead gets an entirely different set. It's more how one deals with that disappointment that determines it.

And if you're after having an encounter for fun, why not take steps to ensure that you're going with someone who is up for what you're bringing to the table?

[WarKitty]

It's not exactly bigoted to be disappointed when one is promised the opportunity of playing with one set of toys and instead gets an entirely different set. It's more how one deals with that disappointment that determines it.

And if you're after having an encounter for fun, why not take steps to ensure that you're going with someone who is up for what you're bringing to the table?

The bigoted remark was more aimed at the reactions, not the disappointment itself. I was referring to the type of individual that would have a violent or otherwise significantly damaging reaction to finding out that their intended partner was trans*.

I think the other issue is that it's not generally considered appropriate to ask about the state of someone's equipment. I can think of lots of reasons why I might be highly disappointed and/or lose interest after getting to the point of nudity. I don't think it's practical to go over all of them. Though I might also be open to a world in which it was more generally acceptable to discuss such things.

[noparlpf]

I was thinking about including this aspect, but I couldn't work out how to word it. Turns out it's really simple...

I am super confused because that is not linking back to a post where I said something like that. It is linking me back to a post where I was rambling about class registration. Did I say that at some point? I can't remember if I did respond back on the casual sex/trans partner question.


My 2 cents: seconding Noparlpf.
It's casual sex, therefore the purpose is not mutual understanding, but that both parties have an enjoyable session of sex (duh). Genitals are generally involved in sexual intercourse, therefore it is wise to inform your partner beforehand if, for whatever reason, your genitals don't match what is expected from your general appearance, or have any particularity. It is a matter of respect for both parts. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with not finding sex with a physically male/female person enjoyable. Similarly, I suppose I would enjoy if my partner told me beforehand about the presence of piercings at particular locations and such. Big surprises are rarely good whenever sex is involved.

But what do I know about casual sex. :smallyuk:

In case I didn't say something before, I think that I agree with Musashi. (Seeing as Musashi is apparently agreeing with me I think that's a reasonable thing to do.) In my opinion, claims that everybody is naturally bisexual or that heterosexuality is wrong because it's a form of prejudice are just as bad as saying that homosexuality is wrong or doesn't exist. Purely heterosexual people exist just as homosexuals exist. A spectrum does have distinct points on it. (This is important because I have heard people saying things like that lately. For example, Freud apparently thought that everybody was naturally bi and that heterosexuality was merely a social constraint, assuming I read that part correctly.) So say I'm a heterosexual woman and I'm looking to hook up with a dude with a penis and he undresses and has a vagina, I'm not going to be all that happy. (Even if I were bi and the dude dropped his pants to reveal a vagina, I probably wouldn't be happy because that night I was expecting to have sex with a man possessed of a penis.)

But yeah, what do I know about casual sex? :smallyuk:

[Mono Vertigo]

I was agreeing with you from the future. Blame neutrinos.
Actually, for an unknown reason, I mixed up KenderWizard's and your posts. I'm not very focused today, and I also blame neutrinos for that. Fixing my post now. *facepalms* :smallfrown:

[noparlpf]

I was agreeing with you from the future. Blame neutrinos.
Actually, for an unknown reason, I mixed up KenderWizard's and your posts. I'm not very focused today, and I also blame neutrinos for that. Fixing my post now. *facepalms* :smallfrown:

Oh, okay. Sounds reasonable.

[H Birchgrove]

IFor example, Freud apparently thought that everybody was naturally bi and that heterosexuality was merely a social constraint, assuming I read that part correctly.)

I thought it was Jung who thought so. Then again, it's possibly they *agreed* on that.

[noparlpf]

I thought it was Jung who thought so. Then again, it's possibly they *agreed* on that.

Well, I'm reading "Civilization and its Discontents", and in a footnote Freud says something along those lines. I've never read Jung.

[H Birchgrove]

Well, I'm reading "Civilization and its Discontents", and in a footnote Freud says something along those lines. I've never read Jung.

Well, you can google Anima and Animus if you ever want to kill time.

[Kneenibble]

I'm reading Pilgrim by Timothy Findley, in which Jung is a main character; was he really a bit gay? Findley (an excellent writer of historical fiction with fastidious attention to historical detail) wouldn't make something up ex nihilo, but, being gay himself, he might be interpreting historical data.

[golentan]

I'm reading Pilgrim by Timothy Findley, in which Jung is a main character; was he really a bit gay? Findley (an excellent writer of historical fiction with fastidious attention to historical detail) wouldn't make something up ex nihilo, but, being gay himself, he might be interpreting historical data.

I can't find anything on the subject and to the best of my knowledge I never met the man... so... maybe?

[Arachu]

I can kind of understand a strong reaction after learning that the person-you-were-planning-on-having-intercourse-with is/was the opposite sex than you expected, but I think anger's unreasonable. Surprise and disappointment I can see - even some level of disgust, if you really dislike the organ in question - but even then I say you should try to let the person down nicely.

I'd offhandedly wish ill of those who react violently, but I seem to be in an oddly-neutral mood.


I note that it seems to be much wiser to inform the other person (or at least know they're into that) ahead of time, considering how incredibly disappointing the alternative could be.


(Personally, I would be delighted to find that I had attracted a MtF. I'd be disappointed in the opposite case, but it'd still be awesome.)

(Oh no, the conversation's shifted to literature! Curse my schools' / house's lack of books. :smallfurious:)

[H Birchgrove]

I'm reading Pilgrim by Timothy Findley, in which Jung is a main character; was he really a bit gay? Findley (an excellent writer of historical fiction with fastidious attention to historical detail) wouldn't make something up ex nihilo, but, being gay himself, he might be interpreting historical data.

Hmm... I do hope he was happy at least some of the time. :smallwink:

Seriously though, I wonder what you mean with "a bit gay". Do you mean he seemed bi-curious or heteroflexible, or do you mean that Jung (in novel and/or IRL) was "camp" (for lack of better word)? :smallconfused:

[Mina Kobold]

For example, Freud apparently thought that everybody was naturally bi and that heterosexuality was merely a social constraint, assuming I read that part correctly.)

Haven't heard about that yet, although it fits his theories on sexual development. Apparently he also thought homosexuality arose from identifying with the parent of the wrong* sex.

And that's about what I can participate to this conversation, so I will just go back to hiding in the corner. Watching, lurking for innocent prey...

Erh, I mean, drawing stuff! Yeah!
>_>
<_<

* According to his theories, that is. There is no sex, gender, orientation or hat preference that is considered wrong for parenting in modern psychology. I hope. ._.

[Coidzor]

Haven't heard about that yet, although it fits his theories on sexual development. Apparently he also thought homosexuality arose from identifying with the parent of the wrong* sex.

And that's about what I can participate to this conversation, so I will just go back to hiding in the corner. Watching, lurking for innocent prey...

Erh, I mean, drawing stuff! Yeah!
>_>
<_<

* According to his theories, that is. There is no sex, gender, orientation or hat preference that is considered wrong for parenting in modern psychology. I hope. ._.

As long as it isn't abusive and steers well clear of violating the Westermarck effect, I ain't heard of any objections, per se.

Though the question really is when modern psychology began, considering they were still torturing small children physically in the 70s.

[H Birchgrove]

As long as it isn't abusive and steers well clear of violating the Westermarck effect, I ain't heard of any objections, per se.

Though the question really is when modern psychology began, considering they were still torturing small children physically in the 70s.

B.F. Skinner of the Behaviourist school was against corporeal punishment against children (and against adults in rest of society, those *cough cough* interested can check out Walden Two and Beyond Freedom and Dignity), and he wrote books since at least 1938 ("The Behaviour of Organisms"), and taught at Harvard from 1948 to 1975.

Of course, there are *other* things you can take issue with Skinner... :smallsigh:

[golentan]

As long as it isn't abusive and steers well clear of violating the Westermarck effect, I ain't heard of any objections, per se.

Though the question really is when modern psychology began, considering they were still torturing small children physically in the 70s.

Could be worse. When I was promoted to adulthood my life expectancy immediately rose by a factor of 10, because children were considered expendable compared to adults (to the point that in my creche when we did wargames we used live ammunition). It's hard to think back on my species without a peculiar mixture of admiration and horror. It took me centuries to realize the extent to which my youth psychologically damaged me.

Course, I have that same mixture of revulsion and admiration for humans. Honestly, the way you've structured your society is so unbelievably cruel and stupid that I have to constantly remind myself that it's the most humane society that has worked with human nature. :smallsigh: /rant

[Serpentine]

I suppose I should have made it known that I was curious specifically about cases where the person is post-op and completely passable as their preferred gender (including genitals, and yes, I realize that this is usually not going to be the case).See, that's a totally different case, although I did cover that in my response - basically, assuming sex reassignment surgery does a pretty good job nowadays, no mention of it is necessary. If it is easily noticable there are likely to be questions, and I think they're best addressed ahead of time, before it gets awkward.

Out of curiosity (and do let me know if I'm coming across as hostile, sometimes I do in cases like these, and it is certainly not my intention), would you say that it is reasonable to assume that all people are heterosexual?Well, not all people, because we know not everyone is. But to assume that any individual you come across is, in the absence of any cues or information to the contrary? Yes, certainly it's reasonable.
I would note that these "assumptions" don't necessarily have any actual bearing on one's behaviour or treatment of someone. Say, for example, my interactions with another forumite: she lives in England, never mentioned anything about race, and, well, I'm white (and so that's my default), so I just assumed she was white. Turns out she's of Asian descent. Finding that out had no more consequence than me thinking "oh hey, she's Asian. I figured she was white. Huh, there you go.", even though my assumption was wrong.
Assumptions about things like sexuality are more likely to have actual consequence to me (most likely :smallsmile:, :smallfrown: or :smallsigh:, :smallwink:), but that still doesn't mean that just because I assume one way or another it'll be a big deal to be wrong.

If not, how low does the percentage of the population that has quality x have to be for it to be reasonable to assume that any particular person you interact with does not have it?Dependent on too much psychological information unavailable, context and probably various other factors. I would conceive that it wouldn't have to be 50%. For homosexuality, specifically... I think anything over something like 25-35% would be enough to have me, personally, being concious of making no assumptions. For others, it is probably quite different.

I am super confused because that is not linking back to a post where I said something like that. It is linking me back to a post where I was rambling about class registration. Did I say that at some point? I can't remember if I did respond back on the casual sex/trans partner question.I borked my quotes somehow >.< It was actually a response to Kender. I'll go fix it. It does look like you think pretty much the same thing, though.

[KenderWizard]

I don't see how anyone in the world would want to have sex with someone they couldn't trust enough to tell them they were trans beforehand. And it's not like they wouldn't find out anyway. Taking off your pants seems like kind of an odd way to come out.

Then again, I'm quite a traditionalist. Sex is a very intimate thing that I don't think should even take place between people who aren't in a committed relationship. I can't really insist on it much because I'm ace and that kind of puts me outside the circle of relevance for the issue; but I've seen too many people hurt because they rushed into it too early and had their hearts broken. Some of them were people who married too quickly; others started having sex too early in the relationship; but whichever way it happened, I've never seen it end well.

I agree with this, basically.


It's fine, you haven't offended me! :P


Oh good! I don't want to offend you! :smallsmile:


I suppose I should have made it known that I was curious specifically about cases where the person is post-op and completely passable as their preferred gender (including genitals, and yes, I realize that this is usually not going to be the case).



Out of curiosity (and do let me know if I'm coming across as hostile, sometimes I do in cases like these, and it is certainly not my intention), would you say that it is reasonable to assume that all people are heterosexual? If not, how low does the percentage of the population that has quality x have to be for it to be reasonable to assume that any particular person you interact with does not have it?

Oh, if they're completely passable, it's different, I suppose.

I generally think that someone could be anything at all, but I tend to proceed based on what they appear. Since I don't plan on having casual sex with anyone, I don't really think about what bits people have very often.



Also, happy bebelated birthday! *hugs and cake*
(Sorry for being so late with it. :( )



Thank you!! :smallsmile:



I borked my quotes somehow >.< It was actually a response to Kender. I'll go fix it. It does look like you think pretty much the same thing, though.

Is this a thing now? Noparlpf and I should endevour to either always agree, so mixing us up doesn't derail the conversation, or else disagree wildly about almost everything, so that we're easier to tell apart. :smallwink:

[noparlpf]

I suppose I should have made it known that I was curious specifically about cases where the person is post-op and completely passable as their preferred gender (including genitals, and yes, I realize that this is usually not going to be the case).[QUOTE]

Oh hey, I missed that post.
In that case, how would it even come up? A couple of weeks ago I was checking out pictures of post-op genitalia and they do a decent job with some of it these days. (At least in the MtF direction. In the FtM direction, not so much...that needs some more work.)

[QUOTE=KenderWizard;12305606]Is this a thing now? Noparlpf and I should endeavor to either always agree, so mixing us up doesn't derail the conversation, or else disagree wildly about almost everything, so that we're easier to tell apart. :smallwink:

That sounds pretty complicated. Would we have to work out our opinions ahead of time outside of the thread?

[Astrella]

(Personally, I would be delighted to find that I had attracted a MtF. I'd be disappointed in the opposite case, but it'd still be awesome.)

Oh, how so if I can ask?

[Lix Lorn]

* According to his theories, that is. There is no sex, gender, orientation or hat preference that is considered wrong for parenting in modern psychology. I hope. ._.
What?!
EVERYONE knows that no-one with a dislike of top hats will EVER be fit to be a good father! :smallfurious:

no not really, in case I need to specify. xD

[The Succubus]

It's incredibly hard to find a good hat these days. Been trying to find suitable for myself recently but it's all baseball caps or wooly hats.

[Yora]

I found one two years ago. I've been wearing it about every day since then.

[KenderWizard]

That sounds pretty complicated. Would we have to work out our opinions ahead of time outside of the thread?

Yeah, this is going to be a lot of work!