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NeoSeraphi
2011-11-25, 03:35 PM
Hello all! I'm gathering ideas for my next piece of Seraphi Homebrew(TM)!

I want to make a melee class with a few class features that grant battlefield control. Some ideas are obvious, such as treating threatened squares as difficult terrain and giving penalties to monsters who attack targets other than you, but I really want this to be a powerful, focused battlefield controller.

Damage isn't important, just control. I want 20 levels of the most strategic class I've ever written. I want this class to stand up to black tentacles, grease, glitterdust, and even some of the heavier and more powerful BC's like stinking cloud, web and etc.

I'll be doing the majority of the work of course, but I'd like the Playground's input. What kinds of things do you think would be cool or interesting for a melee battlefield controller?

Kyuu Himura
2011-11-25, 04:35 PM
I remember I saw a homebrew feat somewhere that let you add your land speed to your threatened area. So if you had a longsword and 40 ft movement speed, you were threatening 40 feet.

Hope it helps

Jeriah
2011-11-25, 05:40 PM
You could allow it to ready a charge attack to attack an enemy in his land speed that does some action.

bobthe6th
2011-11-25, 05:48 PM
perhaps base it off wips? or a rope dart(ie give it more range)? or perhaps let it have minions, which it buffs. huh, perhaps let it be a functional version of leadership. it gets X amount of NPC minions, all of which are straight warriors. they get buffed by the PC, mostly letting them treat there threatened area as difficult terrain ect... or just make a more BFC focused doll judgment (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11940.0) base class.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2011-11-25, 06:00 PM
You could make the main class feature be a debuff aura. This would work well for a "death knight" or other magic-wielding warrior archetype. Let the character spend a move action once per round round to create an emanation effect (5' radius per level or something like that) with abilities that the character can pick from a list. If you want a lot of effects, you should have a long list and let them pick a new one every other level, but limit them to just one effect per round (or maybe 2 or 3 simultaneous effects at higher levels, possibly with a reduced range.)

Effects would be thematic, but could include things like steady negative energy or cold damage, lowered light levels, fatigue, reduced ability scores, forced Concentration checks for spellcasting, etc. If you want to make this less of an evil/chaotic-aligned class, also include beneficial auras that can affect party members. For something that's going to hit every round like this, it's probably best to stick to minor effects that don't require a saving throw (too much dice rolling,) but still do fun things in combat.

Seerow
2011-11-25, 06:31 PM
In addition to the stuff you already mentioned (difficult terrain, give penalties to enemies within reach) Make sure to include some immediate or even opportunity action movement. Something along the lines of: "Select one ally, if an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity from that ally, you may move adjacent to the ally and make an attack of opportunity against the foe who provoked"

Also make sure to remember lots of status effects. Dazzle, Sicken, Nauseated, Blind, Deafen, Fear, Stagger, Daze, Stun, Prone, all of these have a place and can be caused mundanely. Being able to use these kinds of status effects reliably and against multiple targets provides a lot of control in of itself.

As an aside, bonus points of the guy can use things like nets or bolas more effectively than normal. Having the guy throw nets to grapple enemies across the field while he's focusing on directly locking down those closer to him is all sorts of cool.

Also, while spells don't get it a whole lot in 3e, I love forced movement for battlefield control. Knocking people back, forcing them to move a certain way, that's totally cool and fitting. Spells do get some cool things like teleport the guy away, or swap places with an ally or enemy, but I don't think it's as fitting to give those to a mundane.


Also, you mentioned making the penalty to attacks for applying to attacks against people other than you. I wanted to point out that that is more of a defender thing than a controller thing. The two aren't mutually exclusive, but if you want to be more defensive (like a sword and board controller or something) then you will need to account for that in the features. Honestly with the level of lockdown (trying to be equivalent to a wizard) you're probably better making him rogue levels of squishy, and include a few abilities that encourage enemies to attack people other than him despite his strength.

Jeriah
2011-11-25, 06:49 PM
There was a 3.0 PrC that I played once. At first level, it gave the ability to switch positions with one adjacent ally and take any attack that is about to hit your ally. You had to declare the ally at the start of the battle and couldn't change it afterward, but it was a neat ability.

Slayn82
2011-11-25, 06:50 PM
Battlefield Control in D&D without magic is hard to achieve. Take the Dwarven Defender PRC - his defensive stance is made to hold choke points in dungeons, like doors, etc. But people with enough acrobacy ranks, or invisible, or with dimensional door, or flying out of reach, will simply pass through him.

My suggestion of concept would be a fighter specialized in javelins and spears, who could consider his weapon always as a reach weapon. He could have a class feature of always having the effect similar to steadfast boots while he held any spear spear - initially doing double damage against a charge, and with levels damage going up.

If using short spears, he could do ranged AoO s with his short spears by throwing then and promptly drawing another. Also, range increases as levels. Also, manyshot spear.

If using spears, he could be able to use it at adjacent squares without penalties.

As class feature, he could have something to counter Acrobatics? Using the spear's range and techniques to Increase the DC of the test?

Maybe, due to his vigorous moves in combat, he could cause the terrain around him as a difficult terrain? Or maybe something to work like the spike stones spell?

Does this idea look good to you guys?

jiriku
2011-11-25, 08:15 PM
A classic problem of martial battlefield controllers is the inability to mess with people outside their reach. So, a really great martial controller should be able to inflict control effects with ranged and thrown weapons.

Jeriah
2011-11-25, 08:29 PM
A baleful transposition ability would be neat.

Coidzor
2011-11-25, 08:29 PM
Something that forces movement and then also takes away their ability to charge temporarily (say 1 round, maybe 2) and lowers their movement could be good. Take one opponent out of the fight for a round or two, allowing you to take out his buddies, or if they're all of similar toughness, juggle them so that there's never more than one or two able to get around.

Another potential thing would be to link two or more enemies together such that they hobble one another's movement and can't separate to avoid any AOE attacks or effects. How exactly to represent that kind of effect I can't decide at the moment, but I've been thinking about it, currently have a creature that uses adamantine threads to sew together any creatures it strikes with its claw attacks in the same round, sort of like a souped up version of the rope that one can attach to harpoons/nets have and use to limit enemies movement away from one's self.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-25, 08:40 PM
Okay, so to sum up the general consensus in a single post:

Movement-Based Control- bull-rushing, switching squares as an immediate action, and preventing certain paths through blocking or difficult terrain in order to protect allies and yourself.

Ranged Control- Melee-based control isn't enough. Still, this should probably be limited to a weapon's range or something else. Even if magic can do it at Medium range, that doesn't mean mundane can.

Status Effects- I tried to do something like this with my Corrupted Blade class, but as no one really paid attention to that, I was never sure if I had the right idea. Still, powerful, AOE debuffs is the definition of control.

Chassis- Probably lower than a duskblade's, but not too much. I'm thinking d6 HD, Full BAB, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, and no good saves.

As with most melee-control type builds, I'll be making some kind of aggro-control mechanic, but one that mimics the Goad ability of Dragon Age II, rather than a typical aggro-drawer (So my class can redirect the aggro to whoever has assumed the tank role in the party. Things will get crazy if it's a crusader with Thicket of Blades)

Mulletmanalive
2011-11-25, 08:45 PM
An obvious suggestion is to include ranged combat as a major feature; while not powerful, it can be used at range and can be used to supply attack effects without too much difficulty. I actually had a crack at this with my sniper but that wasn't entirely satisfactory, by using Ambush feats.

My Wuxia does an ok job at control, but relly, battlefield control with melee seems like a contradiction; how do you control space in your absence?

Coidzor
2011-11-25, 08:52 PM
Chassis- Probably lower than a duskblade's, but not too much. I'm thinking d6 HD, Full BAB, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, and no good saves.

At least a d8 if they're going to be making a spectacle of themselves and have no defenses against enemy blasting and debuffs.

And you should never give a PC no good saves. :smallconfused:


As with most melee-control type builds, I'll be making some kind of aggro-control mechanic, but one that mimics the Goad ability of Dragon Age II, rather than a typical aggro-drawer (So my class can redirect the aggro to whoever has assumed the tank role in the party. Things will get crazy if it's a crusader with Thicket of Blades)

I'd very highly recommend to have it still be capable of dealing with the consequences of drawing all of the aggro onto itself as well. Squishy this guy should not be.

Jeriah
2011-11-25, 08:59 PM
Movement-Based Control- bull-rushing, switching squares as an immediate action, and preventing certain paths through blocking or difficult terrain in order to protect allies and yourself.

...

Status Effects- I tried to do something like this with my Corrupted Blade class, but as no one really paid attention to that, I was never sure if I had the right idea. Still, powerful, AOE debuffs is the definition of control.I'd suggest giving it a way to extend reach and a number of AoO based abilities as well. Anyone who moves near him gets whacked and takes a status penalty from it.
Chassis- Probably lower than a duskblade's, but not too much. I'm thinking d6 HD, Full BAB, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, and no good saves.D6 seems appropriate.
If it's primarily to be a controller and focus on redirection and manipulation, full BAB seems unusual. I'd give it 3/4 and have it focus on things other than making lots of attacks.
No good saves?! That's inane. Give it a good Ref or Fort save, or perhaps just a good Will save so it can resist being controlled and losing control of the situation.

Seerow
2011-11-25, 09:19 PM
d6 is good, but yeah, make it medium BAB, light or medium armor, and have at least one or two good saves. All bad saves are just bad. Seriously bad saves are designed so that at high levels if you have one you can't actually succeed on a saving throw.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-25, 09:22 PM
d6 HD, 3/4 BAB, Medium Armor Proficiency, Simple/Martial/Shield Proficiency, Good Will saves.

SpaceBadger
2011-11-25, 10:12 PM
battlefield control with melee seems like a contradiction; how do you control space in your absence?

QFT. Do you have some particular fluff in mind to explain how this battlefield control is happening (like the one poster suggested extensive spear-usage), or is it sorta 4E-ish and just happens because that's the way it's written?

Not trying to be snarky, just saying I could probably make better suggestions here if I had some idea how you visualize this working.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-25, 10:17 PM
Hm...I have no idea. I guess I'm planning some kind of supernatural hexblade-type class. Magical abilities that augment weapons and your threat range, and possibly the environment, without being actual spells.

bobthe6th
2011-11-25, 11:25 PM
Perhce let it summon X amount of shadows, that threten all squares around them? Then add riders like fear and - to hit?

RedWarlock
2011-11-26, 12:26 AM
Hm...I have no idea. I guess I'm planning some kind of supernatural hexblade-type class. Magical abilities that augment weapons and your threat range, and possibly the environment, without being actual spells.

Okay, so, supernatural at least. Part of the problem is, when you say 'melee', people think (or at least I think) 4e Martial, IE, no spells or supernatural abilities at all. (part of why people keep asking for a martial controller. Without locking the character down to a specific weapon, it gets tough to justify the mechanics and keep them from being disassociated.)

Any other flavor you could throw in? Good guy, bad guy, power's origin?

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-26, 12:55 AM
Okay, so, supernatural at least. Part of the problem is, when you say 'melee', people think (or at least I think) 4e Martial, IE, no spells or supernatural abilities at all. (part of why people keep asking for a martial controller. Without locking the character down to a specific weapon, it gets tough to justify the mechanics and keep them from being disassociated.)

Any other flavor you could throw in? Good guy, bad guy, power's origin?

That's the thing, I hadn't really considered how I was going to implement it yet, just what the end result was going to be. I don't have any of the flavor written yet.

DeAnno
2011-11-26, 01:38 AM
Hm...I have no idea. I guess I'm planning some kind of supernatural hexblade-type class. Magical abilities that augment weapons and your threat range, and possibly the environment, without being actual spells.

Magical abilities... used in melee... that control things... and aren't spells..- What's that Lassie? You're barking at the Warlock, why would you do that? And is that some sort of sharp weapon with reach you're digging up? Lassie, don't be silly, Warlocks don't use weapons.

(Psst, you may want to think about using Invocation/Eldritch Essence like mechanics similar to a Glaivelock)

EDIT: This also brings Intimidate Samurai to mind, you may want to experiment with a Fear Aura.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-26, 01:48 AM
Magical abilities... used in melee... that control things... and aren't spells..- What's that Lassie? You're barking at the Warlock, why would you do that? And is that some sort of sharp weapon with reach you're digging up? Lassie, don't be silly, Warlocks don't use weapons.

(Psst, you may want to think about using Invocation/Eldritch Essence like mechanics similar to a Glaivelock)

EDIT: This also brings Intimidate Samurai to mind, you may want to experiment with a Fear Aura.

XD I had a laugh at this. Primarily because the warlock is just kind of...bad. (Simply because of the smaller-than-a-sorcerer bag of tricks, not because of the tricks themselves or their implementation)

A fear aura, hmm? The last class WotC released that had a fear aura was even scarier than a lich, because when he scared you, he scared you forever! Even if you killed him and disintegrated his remains, along with every high level divine caster in existence, so there was no chance of him coming back to life, 10 years later, you were still shaken.

If the dread necro can do it, then so can I! :smallwink:

DeAnno
2011-11-26, 01:57 AM
Really, I never thought Warlocks got enough credit. Hellfire Glaivelock can do a ton vs Touch AC with no saves (though Travel Devotion/Swift Leap/Drug of choice is needed), and they have some really good control invocations, plus they can function half competently at 250ft range too, all day. Really, it's the perfect class for guerrilla warfare: you can just harass someone all day long with no need for supplies and make them pay if they try to close with you. All you're really missing is a Teleport Invocation (Fly + Invisibility + Lots of Range has to do, and does fairly well with HIPS or Nightime prominently involved).

Coidzor
2011-11-26, 01:58 AM
Hexblade's Dark Companion might provide some food for thought as well.

DeAnno
2011-11-26, 02:02 AM
Hexblade's Dark Companion might provide some food for thought as well.

Animal spam in general, with the animals having their own controlly headaches, could be an interesting idea.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-26, 02:04 AM
Animal spam in general, with the animals having their own controlly headaches, could be an interesting idea.

Mass Dark Companion- Once per day, summon 6 Hexblade Dark Companions and completely trash your enemies' AC and saving throws for 1 round per class level.

I like it.

Wavelab
2011-11-26, 02:29 AM
Keeping in line with the warlock idea, maybe allow him to do AoE's(with an increased range) using eldritch blast. Maybe even create a new class and duplicate eldritch blast.

Or you could do the same but with ranged weapons instead of eldritch blast, but that would fit more with your Sharpshooter class anyway.

I like the first idea more. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: I reread "Melee" so this idea is pretty much scrapped.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-26, 02:32 AM
Keeping in line with the warlock idea, maybe allow him to do AoE's(with an increased range) using eldritch blast. Maybe even create a new class and duplicate eldritch blast.

*facepalm* See what you did, DeAnno?


Edit: I reread "Melee" so this idea is pretty much scrapped.

No problem. The end result will most likely be some kind of warlock/hexblade hybrid (at least, thematically speaking, not like I'm going to take their class features and dump them in a pot)

Wavelab
2011-11-26, 02:40 AM
So this class is actually turning into more of a debuffer from the looks of it? Hexblade's Dark Companion debuffs... I think...

DeAnno
2011-11-26, 02:40 AM
No problem. The end result will most likely be some kind of warlock/hexblade hybrid (at least, thematically speaking, not like I'm going to take their class features and dump them in a pot)

I smell a really junky PRC!

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-26, 02:51 AM
So this class is actually turning into more of a debuffer from the looks of it? Hexblade's Dark Companion debuffs... I think...

Well, battlefield control is half-debuffing anyway. It's just debuffing in an AOE. (The rest of it is preventing/directing movement)

Wavelab
2011-11-26, 02:54 AM
Well nothing says debuffing like necromancy. Of course necromancy isn't the strongest school there is.

Ooh Ooh! Idea!

Tome of Battle Martial Class that duplicates Necromancy debuffs and stuff.