View Full Version : 3.5 ShieldMaster/Crusader tanking?
Hi, I'm new from playing Tanks in World of Warcraft (Prot warrior) and Lineage 2 (Paladin), I loved tanking in both (and that's an understatement), and been searching around for a class that would work similarly (Have a humongous amount of defence and getting mobs out of party members)
Found out about the Crusader being the best tank in game, and found this PrC (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shieldmaster_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29) that makes using shields pretty much worth it
Been asking around and people told me to use a reach weapon like Kusari-gama or Meteor Hammer, Planning on using them for Crowd Control but I wanna use mainly the Sword-and-Board, so would Crusader/Shieldmaster work out for both good AC and getting everyone one me?
Flickerdart
2011-11-25, 06:55 PM
Don't use D&D Wiki material, it tends to be downright atrocious. Crusader 20 (or Crusader 16/Knight 4) is better for what you want. You don't even need to use a sword, because Shield Bash lets you keep the AC bonus even after you attack with it. You will probably want Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit, as well as Combat Reflexes and a high Dexterity. Agile Riposte might be useful if you do decide to wield a sword.
People told me about Knights too, but they are only lawful, don't wanna lose all the skills in a pretty dumb way, prefer using NG.
Been planning on using the Crusader/Shielmaster/Warblade to be able to use a meteor hammer for Reach, when stuff gets near then Quick Draw to sword and board for defense, They also seen the shieldmaster, it at least looks good to me (balances Shields giving some resistance to magic and the used-everywhere-"Shield Stun"-like ability), someone else saw it too, told me it was good, but just to get more initiator levels.
Just said about the Shieldmaster because it makes shields really usefull aside from the AC bonus and the cover.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-25, 07:26 PM
Just said about the Shieldmaster because it makes shields really usefull aside from the AC bonus and the cover.
Any good shield user is going to be using the shield for shield bashing and defensive enchantments, not for AC.
Also, paladin !=/= lawful good. Cap was still lawful good when he turned rebel along with spidey after the country was taken over by rustbucket.
In general, if you want to tank in the WoW sense of "protect your party from damage," and not just in the sense of being really hard to kill (which is a useless party role), I think it's generally best to stick with a reach weapon. Covering a large area lets you AoO anybody who tries to get past you, which lets you set up goody combos like this guy (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Inhuman_AoO-er_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)), who gets multiple AoOs against everybody nearby no matter what they do every turn, which can be used to trip them and keep them from doing anything.
Any good shield user is going to be using the shield for shield bashing and defensive enchantments, not for AC.
you can't shield bash with a Tower Shield, except with Shieldmaster
Also, paladin !=/= lawful good. Cap was still lawful good when he turned rebel along with spidey after the country was taken over by rustbucket.
He told me about knights, the ones from PHB 2, as far I know they're only lawful, I'm planning on using a NG mostly
In general, if you want to tank in the WoW sense of "protect your party from damage," and not just in the sense of being really hard to kill (which is a useless party role), I think it's generally best to stick with a reach weapon. Covering a large area lets you AoO anybody who tries to get past you, which lets you set up goody combos like this guy (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Inhuman_AoO-er_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)), who gets multiple AoOs against everybody nearby no matter what they do every turn, which can be used to trip them and keep them from doing anything.
I'm actually planning on using one with both being really hard to kill and getting stuff out of the party, been planning on getting a Meteor hammer for getting AoOs from stuff outside my range, then use Quick Draw from Warblade's multiclass to change fast to a Longsword and Tower Shield for don't getting pounded by the stuff on me, when someone goes away, meteor hammer him again, aside from using the maneuvers and the stances.
Long story short: I'm planning on using him in a Lineage 2 Tank way: Be extremely hard to kill, yet extremely useful to the party.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-25, 07:44 PM
you can't shield bash with a Tower Shield, except with Shieldmaster
Yeah, but you don't use a tower shield unless you want to make a Roman legionare (well, the exemplary Roman legionare past 3rd level). And if you make a Roman legionare, you make homebrew rules for tower shields. Tower shields suck.
Also, Quick Draw doesn't work for sheathing weapons, or on shields.
Yeah, but you don't use a tower shield unless you want to make a Roman legionare (well, the exemplary Roman legionare past 3rd level). And if you make a Roman legionare, you make homebrew rules for tower shields. Tower shields suck.
It gives more AC than a heavy one, and it gives cover, and wouldn't it just be roleplayed as a Kite Shield?
Also, Quick Draw doesn't work for sheathing weapons, or on shields.
But wouldn't it waste less actions? I mean instead of 3 would just use 2, right?
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-25, 07:51 PM
It gives more AC than a heavy one, and it gives cover at least, and wouldn't it just be roleplayed as a Kite Shield?
It only grants cover if you give up your attacks. :smallannoyed:
Flickerdart
2011-11-25, 07:52 PM
But wouldn't it waste less actions? I mean instead of 3 would just use 2, right?
Wasting any amount of actions is usually a bad plan. Just get a buckler and wield a Spiked Chain.
It only grants cover if you give up your attacks. :smallannoyed:
Yeah, and in case of archers it would work, would've pretty good for using in case of cone attacks and some breath weapons, I thing in those cases Tower Shield rocks.
Wasting any amount of actions is usually a bad plan. Just get a buckler and wield a Spiked Chain.
Oh and should have mentioned, I hate Two-handed weapons, they pretty much turn Fighters into Glass Cannons, though about the meteor hammer for having a crowd control way, then using the Tower and Longsword on me for not getting pounded, I just like swords.
Buckler? that would be the starter shield, it's almost no AC, pretty basic, not worth later.
Godskook
2011-11-25, 08:07 PM
What I consider the 'standard' lockdown crusader package involves:
-Possibly Stone Power at low levels to combo with your class feature to effectively ignore light damage during fights.
-Thicket of Blades + Mage Slayer to ensure that people you threaten can't do much without you getting a say in the matter.
-Spiked Chain + Size increases, to increase your threatened squares to "Yes"
-AoO+Trip optimization, to give you something worth saying when it isn't your turn.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-25, 08:13 PM
Oh and should have mentioned, I hate Two-handed weapons, they pretty much turn Fighters into Glass Cannons, though about the meteor hammer for having a crowd control way, then using the Tower and Longsword on me for not getting pounded, I just like swords.
Buckler? that would be the starter shield, it's almost no AC, pretty basic, not worth later.
...
Glass cannon? AC doesn't help a fighter past the first few levels, AKA the levels where shields are viable. Past that, the +4 AC is not going to do well compared to a lockdown build who makes his enemies fall down or stand still before they can even reach him. Goliath barbarians are less glass cannon than this sword n' boarder, because with a reach weapon and mountain rage (which the should be using every combat), they can trip or stop enemies up to 20 feet away, while getting a bonus to will saves.
-Possibly Stone Power at low levels to combo with your class feature to effectively ignore light damage during fights.
What's that Stone Power? only thing I've been told about like that was Earth Devotion for locking enemies.
-Spiked Chain + Size increases, to increase your threatened squares to "Yes"
Been told about the Spiked Chain, the Kusari-Gama and Meteor hammer, picked Meteor Hammer.
-AoO+Trip optimization, to give you something worth saying when it isn't your turn.
Been told about that too along with Thicket of Blades for getting the stuff that comes around, I think it's pretty good at crowd control, planning on using the Meteor Hammer mainly for it, but don't wanna rely on it too much or gonna turn into a mezzer rather than a tank that gets the enemies on him and doesn't give a %$&# about getting hit by monsters.
Glass cannon? AC doesn't help a fighter past the first few levels, AKA the levels where shields are viable. Past that, the +4 AC is not going to do well compared to a lockdown build who makes his enemies fall down or stand still before they can even reach him. Goliath barbarians are less glass cannon than this sword n' boarder, because with a reach weapon and mountain rage (which the should be using every combat), they can trip or stop enemies up to 20 feet away, while getting a bonus to will saves.
... When I asked around, and someone made a build, I was planning on getting Full Plate, then was told I had way too much AC at around level 12 to get use of Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike.... Not to mention if it was made of Mithril... I don't exactly think that AC's only for starting if it can mess up the Furious Counterstrike at level 12....
Also planned on using Thicket of blades and other stances and maneuvers of the to get stuff from hitting the party members. I just don't believe that the best defense is a good offense, but the inverse if used right.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-25, 08:45 PM
Been told about that too along with Thicket of Blades for getting the stuff that comes around, I think it's pretty good at crowd control, planning on using the Meteor Hammer mainly for it, but don't wanna rely on it too much or gonna turn into a mezzer rather than a tank that gets the enemies on him and doesn't give a %$&# about getting hit by monsters.
In D&D, tanking IS crowd control. There is no "draws enemies in". Without constant control, they'll briskly walk past you and deal with the guy in linen robe who's been slinging around the pain.
... When I asked around, and someone made a build, I was planning on getting Full Plate, then was told I had way too much AC at around level 12 to get use of Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike.... Not to mention if it was made of Mithril... I don't exactly think that AC's only for starting if it can mess up the Furious Counterstrike at level 12....
Also planned on using Thicket of blades and other stances and maneuvers of the to get stuff from hitting the party members. I just don't believe that the best defense is a good offense, but the inverse if used right.
What was the build?
In D&D, tanking IS crowd control. There is no "draws enemies in". Without constant control, they'll briskly walk past you and deal with the guy in linen robe who's been slinging around the pain.
Um.... a Devoted Spirit Crusader's stances and maneuvers practically make enemies attack him or get AoO'd, aside from "Shield Block" and "Shield Counter", and thicket of blades AoO's 5-foot steeps, so walking away briskly hurts, a lot; it's pretty much why I'm planning on using a meteor hammer, and the Sword-and-Board when they do what I want (Attack me) for being able of getting Zerg Rushed and not getting more damage that I can withstand, but they can heal themselves so it maybe doesn't matter that much, unless it's strong enemies.
What was the build?
Here (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=54694), the starting abilities score was 14 with none going below 10.
darkdragoon
2011-11-25, 08:59 PM
1 more AC is not a significant boost, even at level 1. Given that it's several levels before you can even switch to that PrC anyway there's little reason to start with a tower shield anyway. And yes, Crusaders don't have that much use for really high AC anyway due to wanting to trigger Furious Counterstrike.
The PRC seems like a very complicated way to get something that can be done with a couple feats (Shield Charge, Shield Slam). A Cleric dip can give you things like miss chances, Energize Shield spell, and opens up the ridiculously strong Ruby Knight Vindicator.
There is little reason to use a longsword other than the blade of righteous war. Which again requires a Cleric or Paladin dip if you want to use the special features of the set.
A ranseur is an easy to use reach weapon that you don't need to burn a feat on. If you are going for exotic reach the spiked chain is all-around better than its clones.
Stone Power is a feat that lets you take an attack penalty for temporary HP.
1 more AC is not a significant boost, even at level 1. Given that it's several levels before you can even switch to that PrC anyway there's little reason to start with a tower shield anyway. And yes, Crusaders don't have that much use for really high AC anyway due to wanting to trigger Furious Counterstrike.
Pretty much why I don't exactly like the idea of getting a buckler.
The PrC pretty much gives the Impact shield and Shield of The Heart. which are 2 pretty nice abilities, along with some other neat stuff that makes using shields worth it, I mean, everywhere else shields block the attacks at least mostly, here they just give AC...
The PRC seems like a very complicated way to get something that can be done with a couple feats (Shield Charge, Shield Slam). A Cleric dip can give you things like miss chances, Energize Shield spell, and opens up the ridiculously strong Ruby Knight Vindicator.
Been thinking about using those feats before finding the PrC, but it would burn the feats the Crusader would use for controling (Stand Still, Extra Granted Maneuver, Rombilar's Gambit, etc).
Was suggested multiclassing to Cleric, but then it was scrapped as it would eat the initiator levels, also was suggested the Ruby Knight Vindicator, but it has to have Wee Jas as deity (It is LN with LE tendencies, wich would conflict with my mainly NG), would use it on other kind of parties though.
There is little reason to use a longsword other than the blade of righteous war.
Oh the Longsword is because I like swords :smallbiggrin:
A ranseur is an easy to use reach weapon that you don't need to burn a feat on. If you are going for exotic reach the spiked chain is all-around better than its clones.
Was told to either use the Spiked Chain,Kusari-Gama or Meteor hammer for attacking adyacent too, I think Meteor Hammer's pretty cool and thinking on using it.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-25, 09:26 PM
Um.... a Devoted Spirit Crusader's stances and maneuvers practically make enemies attack him or get AoO'd, aside from "Shield Block" and "Shield Counter", and thicket of blades AoO's 5-foot steeps, so walking away briskly hurts, a lot; it's pretty much why I'm planning on using a meteor hammer, and the Sword-and-Board when they do what I want (Attack me) for being able of getting Zerg Rushed and not getting more damage that I can withstand, but they can heal themselves so it maybe doesn't matter that much, unless it's strong enemies.
Here (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=54694), the starting abilities score was 14 with none going below 10.
Which maneuvers? Really, the only one I know of is Iron Guard's Glare, which is a stance and requires your allies to be packed near you.
And that build... the average CR 11 dragon has an attack bonus of +23. The CR 11 hydra has 12 attacks at +17, so there's definitely going to be hits there as well. A couple of level 8 fighters, mooks at this level, can easily have a +13 to attack, from 18 strength (16, 2 from levels), +8 BAB, and masterwork/magic weapon, so they can hit you 25% of the time.
Which maneuvers? Really, the only one I know of is Iron Guard's Glare, which is a stance and requires your allies to be packed near you.
You forgot Thicket of Blades, Shield Block and Shield counter for helping allies, and Picking Combat Reflexes as First Feat for AoO's, they're pretty good at making enemies not want to ignore you, and do NOT forget that Crusaders get a level 9 maneuver that gives Heal.
And that build... the average CR 11 dragon has an attack bonus of +23. The CR 11 hydra has 12 attacks at +17, so there's definitely going to be hits there as well. A couple of level 8 fighters, mooks at this level, can easily have a +13 to attack, from 18 strength (16, 2 from levels), +8 BAB, and masterwork/magic weapon, so they can hit you 25% of the time.
Because he wanted to make use of Furious Counterstrike, he's only got a +3 Breastplate and a +3 Heavy shield, told me to not get overarmored to be able to make use of the Furious Counterstrike and give some damage back at the enemies.
Oh, forgot to ask, they told me there weren't any in this game, but wanna confirm, are there soulshots in this game? dunno, just came from playing MMORPGs and don't know if Lineage 2 imported them from here
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-25, 09:42 PM
You forgot Thicket of Blades, Shield Block and Shield counter for helping allies, and Picking Combat Reflexes as First Feat for AoO's, they're pretty good at making enemies not want to ignore you, and do NOT forget that Crusaders get a level 9 maneuver that gives Heal.
And those fit your "draw enemies away from the guy with zero armor while fumbling around with your weapons" how?
Oh, forgot to ask, they told me there weren't any in this game, but wanna confirm, are there soulshots in this game? dunno, just came from playing MMORPGs and don't know if Lineage 2 imported them from here
...No.
And those fit your "draw enemies away from the guy with zero armor while fumbling around with your weapons" how?
Well... First off, Thicket of Blades gets AoO's from 5-foot Steeps from enemies, it's pretty much a Crusader's bread and butter, Shield Block gives +8 AC to allies, and Shield Counter negates an enemy's attack, and if they get to attack one's ally, then there's the level 9 maneuver that gives heal, you can use it on them. There's even a Crusader Handbook here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655), check it out if you wanna know about Crusader tanking.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-25, 09:55 PM
Well... First off, Thicket of Blades gets AoO's from 5-foot Steeps from enemies, it's pretty much a Crusader's bread and butter, Shield Block gives +8 AC to allies, and Shield Counter negates an enemy's attack, and if they get to attack one's ally, then there's the level 9 maneuver that gives heal, you can use it on them. There's even a Crusader Handbook here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655), check it out if you wanna know about Crusader tanking.
Alright, enemy doesn't walk right next to you.
Alright, enemy doesn't walk right next to you.
Move to a place where he's going.... or use a reach weapon and trip...
Godskook
2011-11-25, 10:03 PM
What's that Stone Power? only thing I've been told about like that was Earth Devotion for locking enemies.
Its in ToB, and gives temp HP like Power Attack gives damage.
Been told about the Spiked Chain, the Kusari-Gama and Meteor hammer, picked Meteor Hammer.
There's no 'official' Meteor Hammer that I'm aware of, only Dragon Mag and homebrew, so your DM might not allow it.
Also, I'm not sure what the tripping-relevant stats on either of those alternatives are. A spiked chain's favor is in part due to its tripping capabilities.
Been told about that too along with Thicket of Blades for getting the stuff that comes around, I think it's pretty good at crowd control, planning on using the Meteor Hammer mainly for it, but don't wanna rely on it too much or gonna turn into a mezzer rather than a tank that gets the enemies on him and doesn't give a %$&# about getting hit by monsters.
Never heard about a 'mezzer', so I'm not sure what you mean by that, but in almost all formats, tanks need to bring crowd control to the table, and the more the better. Anything that doesn't sacrifice your durability is a good choice, and anything that keeps enemies from doing anything useful is effectively adding to your durability.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-25, 10:12 PM
Move to a place where he's going.... or use a reach weapon and trip...
But isn't the point to use a tower shield? Can't use that and a reach weapon.
And you can't 5 ft step when it's not your turn.
And while you're free to attack him, he's free to attack your squishier allies.
There's no 'official' Meteor Hammer that I'm aware of, only Dragon Mag and homebrew, so your DM might not allow it.
Don't know, gotta see if he does, haven't heard anything from them saying if they do or not.
Also, I'm not sure what the tripping-relevant stats on either of those alternatives are. A spiked chain's favor is in part due to its tripping capabilities.
Meteor hammer's has 15' reach and hits adjacent foes too, it seems pretty cool though it has 1d4/2x dmg.
Never heard about a 'mezzer', so I'm not sure what you mean by that, but in almost all formats, tanks need to bring crowd control to the table, and the more the better. Anything that doesn't sacrifice your durability is a good choice, and anything that keeps enemies from doing anything useful is effectively adding to your durability.
Mezzer's the one that "messes" up the enemies, not just from attacking the party, but from doing anything, it's like a mage that instead of nuking spam debuffs and poisons.
but in almost all formats, tanks need to bring crowd control to the table, and the more the better. Anything that doesn't sacrifice your durability is a good choice, and anything that keeps enemies from doing anything useful is effectively adding to your durability.
Chosen the Meteor Hammer for using along the thicket of blades and Iron guard's Glare to keep enemies from hitting allies, but wanna keep a shield and a longsword for keeping durability in case enemies start zerg rushing me or any other situation that requires more AC (along the healing maneuvers like Crusader's strike), just to keep balance and not lack the durability.
But isn't the point to use a tower shield? Can't use that and a reach weapon.
The point is using a Meteor Hammer for Crowd Control when stuff start rushing to the party, but when they get on me, switch to longsword for doing damage and boosting AC in case they zerg rush.
And you can't 5 ft step when it's not your turn.
It's not me the one that has to do 5-foot steep, it's the other guy, if he does he gets AoO'd, and I'm supposed to stay right in front of the party to block them right? if an enemy tries to go around then the party would just pwn him, he comes front, I AoO him, they get near to me, Longsword and Tower shield to start using impact shield and do damage when they just get near (Combat Reflexes).
And while you're free to attack him, he's free to attack your squishier allies.
And risks getting AoO'd and then tripped.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-25, 10:24 PM
Mezzer's the one that "messes" up the enemies, not just from attacking the party, but from doing anything, it's like a mage that instead of nuking spam debuffs and poisons.
Both Stand Still and Improved Trip have damage. Stand Still is part of a regular attack, Improved Trip gives a free attack on a tripped enemy.
Also, you will not find a tanking mechanic in D&D. Your DM needs to have the "tank, mage, damage dealer" mindset for it to work. The closest thing you've got is battlefield control.
Both Stand Still and Improved Trip have damage. Stand Still is part of a regular attack, Improved Trip gives a free attack on a tripped enemy.
Planning on using both actually.
Also, you will not find a tanking mechanic in D&D. Your DM needs to have the "tank, mage, damage dealer" mindset for it to work. The closest thing you've got is battlefield control.
Um, then I may ask why people around say that Crusader is the best "Tank" there is, it's able to make enemies attack him or get penalized and has both Steely resolve and Furious Counterstrike, it just seems you just don't want tanks here.
And isn't the battlefield control just tripping enemies? that's part of tanking too
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-25, 10:34 PM
Um, then I may ask why people around say that Crusader is the best "Tank" there is, it's able to make enemies attack him or get penalized and has both Steely resolve and Furious Counterstrike, it just seems you just don't want tanking here.
And isn't the battlefield control just tripping enemies? that's part of tanking too
Yeah, but the tanking is all battlefield control. Nothing in Iron Guard's Glare prevents them from 5 ft stepping away from you, and you can't have that and Thicket of Blades up at the same time.
Flickerdart
2011-11-25, 10:35 PM
Crusader is the best tank in D&D, but it's by no means a good one. Enemies that wish to ignore him can safely choose to do so provided they have their heads on straight.
If you are not dedicated to tripping, you will not be able to trip anything big and scary. Mixing it up is not recommended.
Yeah, but the tanking is all battlefield control. Nothing in Iron Guard's Glare prevents them from 5 ft stepping away from you, and you can't have that and Thicket of Blades up at the same time.
Iron Guard's Glare just makes them have a penalty at attacking Friends, and changing stances is a swift action anyways.
Flickerdart
2011-11-25, 10:39 PM
Iron Guard's Glare just makes them have a penalty at attacking Friends, and changing stances is a swift action anyways.
That means that you're changing stances in response to the actions of your enemy, on the turn after it was actually important.
Crusader is the best tank in D&D, but it's by no means a good one. Enemies that wish to ignore him can safely choose to do so provided they have their heads on straight.
Just move where he's trying to move, he will have to either get AoO'd or tripped, adn stay near the party.
If you are not dedicated to tripping, you will not be able to trip anything big and scary. Mixing it up is not recommended.
Improved Trip.
claypigeons
2011-11-25, 10:44 PM
Why hold a shield when you can animate it anyway?
In D&D, there aren't really "tanks" in the traditional MMO sense or style. There is no "taunt" button or mechanic (well, there's a couple feats... but they are save based). So the best you can do to "tank" is keep enemies off the "squishies" is too keep them away. This is done via battlefield control.
That means, tripping. And grappling :smallyuk:. Sword and board fighting doesn't accommodate this. Spiked chains do. Combat reflexes, improved trip and a chain (and size increases)... Add in things that give you extra free attacks (karmic strike, robilar's gambit) for then things don't fall down for extra style.
Taking away the 5ft-step is pointless. Once enemies realize that any move they make means getting hit the face, they will just ~move~. And not 5ft-step. You only provoke once... if your character misses, they are out of your range. Now they don't care about 5ft-steps. Reach weapons only matter if they are in range. If your caster friends are next to you (which many ally-assisting maneuvers require) your enemies will just stab them instead of you. Or one will grapple you and the rest stab your allies. Either way, making them fall down is usually the superior method.
That means that you're changing stances in response to the actions of your enemy, on the turn after it was actually important.
Why would someone have Iron Guard's Glare when an enemy's getting near the threat zone?
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-25, 10:46 PM
Just move where he's trying to move, he will have to either get AoO'd or tripped, adn stay near the party.
Alright. His turn, he gets back up and attacks the mage. You attack him. He attacks the mage again. Real good tanking job there.
Improved Trip.
And Stand Still, and Combat Expertise, and Combat Reflexes, and hopefully Jotunbrud.
claypigeons
2011-11-25, 10:55 PM
hopefully Jotunbrud.
What book? And what does it do? :smallconfused: Not familiar with that one.
Why hold a shield when you can animate it anyway?
Because Shieldmaster's use wielded shields? and animated lose AC? and it's a tower shield?
That means, tripping. And grappling :smallyuk:. Sword and board fighting doesn't accommodate this. Spiked chains do. Combat reflexes, improved trip and a chain (and size increases)... Add in things that give you extra free attacks (karmic strike, robilar's gambit) for then things don't fall down for extra style.
Meteor hammer....Again....
Taking away the 5ft-step is pointless. Once enemies realize that any move they make means getting hit the face, they will just ~move~. And not 5ft-step. You only provoke once... if your character misses, they are out of your range. Now they don't care about 5ft-steps. Reach weapons only matter if they are in range. If your caster friends are next to you (which many ally-assisting maneuvers require) your enemies will just stab them instead of you. Or one will grapple you and the rest stab your allies. Either way, making them fall down is usually the superior method.
just move, then Combat Reflexes will AoO them. Move away, get tripped with the meteor hammer. If they Attacking the ally, either tripped or used Rombilar's gambit, Defemsive Sweep, Stand Still, etc.
Or one will grapple you and the rest stab your allies. Either way, making them fall down is usually the superior method.
If they're that near, either trip, if have shield equiped, the get Impact Shield, also several other stuff.
Alright. His turn, he gets back up and attacks the mage. You attack him. He attacks the mage again. Real good tanking job there.
Overwhelming Assault, Defensive Sweep, and Iron Guard's Glare, also if he gets back up he makes another AoO, he will five mout a lot of AoO's. In fact, a Crusader's supposed to be between the foe and the party, and a reach weapon will screw up their movement with a huge load of trips.
AAAND let's not forget Defensive Rebuke or Shield Counter, neither Shield Block.
Flickerdart
2011-11-25, 11:09 PM
Improved Trip.
Improved Trip isn't "this will let me trip bigger meaner nasties than normal", it's "this will let me trip anyone at all". Tripping without it is pointless. And even with it, you're at an inherent disadvantage against most monsters, which will be larger than you, have higher Strength scores than you, and some will have the stability bonus or be immune to tripping altogether.
claypigeons
2011-11-25, 11:14 PM
Because Shieldmaster's use wielded shields? and animated lose AC? and it's a tower shield?
I'm still failing to see why Shieldmaster is actually worthwhile. The class can be replaced with a couple feats. And 5 levels of crusader (or warblade) would be better. I'd rather have ninth level maneuvers.
Also
Animated
Upon command, an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder, protecting her as if she were using it herself but freeing up both her hands.
So you don't lose shield bonus. Again, why not just animate the shield? All the cool kids are doing it.
just move, then Combat Reflexes will AoO them. Move away, get tripped with the meteor hammer. If they Attacking the ally, either tripped or used Rombilar's gambit, Defemsive Sweep, Stand Still, etc.
For Combat Reflexes to work, they need to provoke an attack of opportunity. If they are already beating on your allies, it's too late this turn.
If they're that near, either trip, if have shield equiped, the get Impact Shield, also several other stuff.
Your DM is allowing that class? Impact shield is broken. Both in power and in that it is actually mechanically broken. 10+half level+ str (not mod... it says strength. At character level 1, this is at least a 20) is crazy. And as a standard action (why use the attack action version?) things automatically get -4 to attack/ac/saves. Caster's new best friend.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-25, 11:15 PM
What book? And what does it do? :smallconfused: Not familiar with that one.
Some FR book. Gives powerful build minus larger weapons.
Overwhelming Assault, Defensive Sweep, and Iron Guard's Glare, also if he gets back up he makes another AoO, he will five mout a lot of AoO's. In fact, a Crusader's supposed to be between the foe and the party, and a reach weapon will screw up their movement with a huge load of trips.
Hm, let's see. Ten foot radius. You're directly between your ally and enemy. Let's say the enemy is 15 feet away. He walks 15 feet to the side, 15 feet down. Larger enemies have faster movement speeds, even if they do have to move more to get around you, and longer reach. A lot can fly around you, with fly speeds of 50+. And if they move to attack you, they get a free full attack while you fumble around with your equipment.
Improved Trip isn't "this will let me trip bigger meaner nasties than normal", it's "this will let me trip anyone at all". Tripping without it is pointless. And even with it, you're at an inherent disadvantage against most monsters, which will be larger than you, have higher Strength scores than you, and some will have the stability bonus or be immune to tripping altogether.
Tripping would've of course used against Crowds with the Meteor hammer, but if it's something big, there's where maneuvers REALLY come in, like Defensive Rebuke, Shield Counter, Shield Block, etc. And Strike of Righteous Vitality when they star hitting hard, and when it's something that has to be killed fast, Vanguard Strike and Foehammer Strike, uses depends on how the enemy's going too, keeps doing 5-foot steeps? Thicket of blades, it's pretty much unstoppable? the Feats will be extremely annoying to him when he tries to get near.
Flickerdart
2011-11-25, 11:19 PM
the Feats will be extremely annoying to him when he tries to get near.
This is the problem. He's not going to get near, he's going to walk over to someone else and slap him around a bit, and in your heavy armour there's no way you can move quickly enough to do much about it.
Hm, let's see. Ten foot radius. You're directly between your ally and enemy. Let's say the enemy is 15 feet away. He walks 15 feet to the side, 15 feet down.
He's already getting nuked, and Use rombilar's gambit or defensive rebuke on him, he doesn't attack? AoO'd
Larger enemies have faster movement speeds, even if they do have to move more to get around you, and longer reach. A lot can fly around you, with fly speeds of 50+. And if they move to attack you, they get a free full attack while you fumble around with your equipment.
Pretty much party's ranged members' work, and if I can't get them, neither can another fighter anyways, so there's not exactly that much of disavantage compared to other fighters, but I can give Iron Guard's Glare and Both Shield Maneuvers to give some buff.
claypigeons
2011-11-25, 11:20 PM
Some FR book. Gives powerful build minus larger weapons.
Hmm. Why not just use Goliath and mountain rage? Do you remember which book? I'd like to check it out, assuming someone I know has the book lol.
This is the problem. He's not going to get near, he's going to walk over to someone else and slap him around a bit, and in your heavy armour there's no way you can move quickly enough to do much about it.
Depends on the level the monster is, if it's at likely level around level 12, I may have Mithril full plate of speed already. And if he doesn't get near, he gets nuked by the rest of the party.
Look, you seem pretty set on going sword and shield. Which is fine; if your character concept is "I wanna be the guy standing at the front of the party holding up the enormous wall of metal," and you want to stick with it, you're well within your rights to do so.
But the point of the thread, as I understood it, was to ask if that'd "work out for both good AC and getting everyone one (sic) me?" And, as everybody in the thread has told you, the answer is no. Shields don't really contribute significantly to your defense after the first couple levels, due to a few factors (small AC bonus, you could animate one anyway, and tripping is a better way to avoid attacks). And D&D doesn't really have an effective "get everyone on me" mechanic, the closest thing it has is battlefield control, which is more "they might not be on me, but I'll keep them from getting on anyone else." And that's best accomplished with reach weapons like a spiked chain, not a shield.
So, if you wanna be a sword-and-board fighter, go ahead. But, if you're interested in our advice about how to be an effective tank, you've got it. I'm not sure why you're arguing with it now that you've heard what everybody has to say...
claypigeons
2011-11-25, 11:29 PM
Depends on the level the monster is, if it's at likely level around level 12, I may have Mithril full plate of speed already. And if he doesn't get near, he gets nuked by the rest of the party.
Speed is a weapon enhancement. And lets you make more attacks. Not move faster. Mithral Full plate is also still medium, and you still have 20ft movement.
Flickerdart
2011-11-25, 11:33 PM
Depends on the level the monster is, if it's at likely level around level 12, I may have Mithril full plate of speed already. And if he doesn't get near, he gets nuked by the rest of the party.
Imagine that there are enemies in front of your party, but also enemies behind you, who have circled around, ambushed you or teleported. You have no ability to protect the party now, because your strategy involves always being next to the enemy. And if your party tries to bunch up so that it's easier for you, then out come the area effects, which are very popular with monstrous enemies and spellcasters.
Look, you seem pretty set on going sword and shield. Which is fine; if your character concept is "I wanna be the guy standing at the front of the party holding up the enormous wall of metal," and you want to stick with it, you're well within your rights to do so.
Um... I'm actually saying I'm using a Meteor Hammer for Reach, but that I'm using a shield not only for AC and the Cover but some maneuvers require it.
But the point of the thread, as I understood it, was to ask if that'd "work out for both good AC and getting everyone one (sic) me?" And, as everybody in the thread has told you, the answer is no. Shields don't really contribute significantly to your defense after the first couple levels, due to a few factors (small AC bonus, you could animate one anyway, and tripping is a better way to avoid attacks). And D&D doesn't really have an effective "get everyone on me" mechanic, the closest thing it has is battlefield control, which is more "they might not be on me, but I'll keep them from getting on anyone else." And that's best accomplished with reach weapons like a spiked chain, not a shield.
And Crusaders can both "get everyone on them" and "keeping them from everyone", they have abilities that make enemies get on them, and if they don't they get an AoO, but they're also good al Tripping, nobody here's arguing about me using a shield, only about that I'm planning about tanking (correct me if I'm wrong).
Speed is a weapon enhancement. And lets you make more attacks. Not move faster. Mithral Full plate is also still medium, and you still have 20ft movement.
Mithral full plate of speed gives haste.
Flickerdart
2011-11-25, 11:38 PM
Mithral full plate of speed gives haste.
Yeah, for a whoppin' ten rounds per day, and at the cost of other bonuses.
Imagine that there are enemies in front of your party, but also enemies behind you, who have circled around, ambushed you or teleported. You have no ability to protect the party now, because your strategy involves always being next to the enemy. And if your party tries to bunch up so that it's easier for you, then out come the area effects, which are very popular with monstrous enemies and spellcasters.
Iron Guad's glare, Shield Block and Counter and Trip everyone, or if they all get inside my Threat area and don't attack me, there will be tons of AoO's (Defensive Sweep), I think that would work out right?
claypigeons
2011-11-25, 11:48 PM
Iron Guad's glare, Shield Block and Counter and Trip everyone, or if they all get inside my Threat area and don't attack me, there will be tons of AoO's (Defensive Sweep), I think that would work out right?
If things are flying and smart, they are beyond your threat range. If you don't threaten, they don't provoke. They fly around and make the squishies the meat of your death sandwich. Takes at least one turn to make your AoO engine work again.
Flickerdart
2011-11-25, 11:51 PM
Iron Guad's glare, Shield Block and Counter and Trip everyone, or if they all get inside my Threat area and don't attack me, there will be tons of AoO's (Defensive Sweep), I think that would work out right?
The whole point is that they're not inside your reach, so you're not Shield Blocking or tripping anything because you can't get to them.
Urpriest
2011-11-25, 11:51 PM
So one thing still confuses me: if meteor hammer can be used close up, then what is the longsword for?
jiriku
2011-11-25, 11:51 PM
There are a couple of strategies to keep in mind, most of which will require you to have specific sorts of gear. In D&D, it's not uncommon for enemies to fly, especially at higher levels. In fact, it's not terribly uncommon to face encounters where every single opponent is flying. Creatures that fly also tend to be fairly quick. You'll want a strategy for engaging and tanking a mobile flying enemy, or even groups of them. A magic item that grants you a fast fly speed with at least Good maneuverability should do the job.
It's also fairly common to run into enemies that are effective at considerable ranges, sometimes more than 100 ft. You'll want some means of closing quickly with such enemies in order to tank them. Again, gear comes to the rescue, in the form of an item like cape of the mountebank or boots of teleportation.
A particularly difficult encounter is a fast, flying creature with effective ranged attacks, like a manticore, harpy archer, or wizard. Have a strategy for slowing those guys down, or they'll run circles around you.
Tripping is an excellent tanking maneuver, but many enemies are entirely immune to it, being incorporeal, having many legs, or moving through a means of magical flight. You'll want some means of lockdown that's not trip-based. The ability to deliver a daze effect is a pretty hoss way to do it, IMO.
It's very true that in D&D, the only real way to generate "threat" is to deal a lot of damage. Make sure that you do. All the AoOs in the world are worthless if you only hit for 5-10 points of damage per attack, or if you can't hammer through a creature's miss chances and damage reduction. A holy illusion bane magic weapon made of cold iron or alchemical silver is probably the way to get the job done.
If you're interested in homebrew, you might be interested in my knight-paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187700) class, which can be customized to fit a NG alignment. It has several class abilities and spells for creating aggro, other spells for soaking damage against allies even if enemies do attack them, and a number of auras that automatically hinder nearby enemies and protect nearby allies. It might not be your cup of tea, but then again, you never know.
Tripping is an excellent tanking maneuver, but many enemies are entirely immune to it, being incorporeal, having many legs, or moving through a means of magical flight. You'll want some means of lockdown that's not trip-based. The ability to deliver a daze effect is a pretty hoss way to do it, IMO.
Oh for that, I think Defensive Rebuke would work for getting them to attack or Impact shield to block thm down, I guess that would work, right?, and don't ethereal creatures get attacked harder by Sword of the Planes?
It's also fairly common to run into enemies that are effective at considerable ranges, sometimes more than 100 ft. You'll want some means of closing quickly with such enemies in order to tank them. Again, gear comes to the rescue, in the form of an item like cape of the mountebank or boots of teleportation.
This seems really helpful, thanks :smallsmile:
It's very true that in D&D, the only real way to generate "threat" is to deal a lot of damage. Make sure that you do. All the AoOs in the world are worthless if you only hit for 5-10 points of damage per attack, or if you can't hammer through a creature's miss chances and damage reduction. A holy illusion bane magic weapon made of cold iron or alchemical silver is probably the way to get the job done.
Wait, cold Iron? doesn't it cost even more to get a magic enhancement?
If you're interested in homebrew, you might be interested in my knight-paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187700) class, which can be customized to fit a NG alignment. It has several class abilities and spells for creating aggro, other spells for soaking damage against allies even if enemies do attack them, and a number of auras that automatically hinder nearby enemies and protect nearby allies. It might not be your cup of tea, but then again, you never know.
Gonna check it out, thanks again :smallbiggrin:
So one thing still confuses me: if meteor hammer can be used close up, then what is the longsword for?
Meteor hammer hits for 1d4/2x, longsword hits 1d6, but meteor hammer hits adjacent foe and has longer range than a spiked chain (I think 15' is more, isn't it).
Urpriest
2011-11-26, 12:01 AM
Meteor hammer hits for 1d4/2x, longsword hits 1d6, but meteor hammer hits adjacent foe and has longer range than a spiked chain (I think 15' is more, isn't it).
The base die is not very important. d4 to d8 with a better crit multiplier is an average of a bit more than +2 damage per hit. Certainly not worth using a move action on sheathing your meteor hammer and giving up a full attack as a result. Most of your damage will be from Power Attack and other bonuses, the weapon's base die is largely meaningless past the first few levels.
jiriku
2011-11-26, 12:52 AM
Oh for that, I think Defensive Rebuke would work for getting them to attack or Impact shield to block thm down, I guess that would work, right?, and don't ethereal creatures get attacked harder by Sword of the Planes?
By lockdown, I mean movement denial and/or action denial. Trip does both at once because it prevents movement and your victim has to burn a move action to recover. Defensive rebuke and impact shield can be used to deal damage or inflict penalties, but they don't perform lockdown. Good alternatives to tripping include the fears Stand Still and Large and In Charge - both are great at what they do. Grappling is another form of movement/action denial, but it kind of sucks because it's not useful against multiple opponents, and solo bosses tend to be difficult or impossible to grapple.
Wait, cold Iron? doesn't it cost even more to get a magic enhancement?
Yeah, it's costly. If you can't afford it, you might go with alchemical silver instead, or even adamantine. It really depends on the type of monsters you think you'll fight. The important thing is to look at the kinds of creatures you're weak against, and see if there's a way you can minimize that weakness without spending too much. For example, incorporeal undead could be a real headache for you - they fly, they can't be tripped, they ignore your Impact Shield since they're immune to Fort saves, they ignore your armor and shield unless you get ghost touch, they can avoid attacks of opportunity by moving through walls and floors, and unless you have the right weapon to hit them with, incorporeality makes them frustrating to attack. There's gear to fix all those problems - the challenge lies in deciding what's worth buying and what's too expensive. There's no one right answer - it depends on the kind of campaign you find yourself in.
Defensive rebuke and impact shield can be used to deal damage or inflict penalties, but they don't perform lockdown. Good alternatives to tripping include the fears Stand Still and Large and In Charge - both are great at what they do.
Oh I'm planning on getting Stand Still as a feat for the Crusader
It really depends on the type of monsters you think you'll fight. The important thing is to look at the kinds of creatures you're weak against, and see if there's a way you can minimize that weakness without spending too much. For example, incorporeal undead could be a real headache for you - they fly, they can't be tripped, they ignore your Impact Shield since they're immune to Fort saves, they ignore your armor and shield unless you get ghost touch, they can avoid attacks of opportunity by moving through walls and floors, and unless you have the right weapon to hit them with, incorporeality makes them frustrating to attack. There's gear to fix all those problems - the challenge lies in deciding what's worth buying and what's too expensive. There's no one right answer - it depends on the kind of campaign you find yourself in.
Oh so all the situations the other guys told me to tell me that tanks suck are fixable with specific stuff? Dude didn't know, I'm new from playing MMORPGs (there you just get the strong stuff and that's all), that is really helpful! Thank you!:smallbiggrin:
PS: Ok, since everybody seems to not know exactly what I'm doing with the Crusader, here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/314309-3-5-shielmaster-crusader-worth-tanking.html)'s the other post I made for asking about using the Crusader/Shieldmaster.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-26, 05:44 PM
Alright, let's get this straight. Take whatever MMO combat systems you've played with aggro mechanics and such. Now, toss them t the window, because D&D does not work that way. There is no aggro, there is only crowd control. The best you can do is delay your enemy for a few rounds so the mage can get defenses up or blast him away. And that is exactly what you're supposed to do. The enemy will not be attacking you the entire combat. Your job is to slow him down long enough for the skillmonkey to plink a few crossbow bolts and the mage to set up a couple personal defenses or use an orb or ray while the armored mage (read: cleric or druid) stands next to you with a couple combat buffs up and hits him on the face or stays back and uses crowd control/summons. You have a d10 hit die, some healing maneuvers, and Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike. Fumbling around between a reach weapon and a sword and shield isn't worth it compared to just using the meteor hammer.
If you want to use sword and board, stick to sword and board. Don't switch between that and a reach weapon. If you want to tank, switch meteor hammer with kusari-gama, using trip at reach and shield bash on adjacent enemies.
Last thing: crusader and shieldmaster are taking up most of your levels. If you wanted to be a sorcerer gish, you should've been a crusader 2/sorcerer X/spellsword 1/swiftblade 10/sorcerer +Y.
Alright, let's get this straight. Take whatever MMO combat systems you've played with aggro mechanics and such. Now, toss them t the window
Like I said in the other post, sorry, never ever gonna happen.
There is no aggro, there is only crowd control. The best you can do is delay your enemy for a few rounds so the mage can get defenses up or blast him away.
Yeah they told me there was no aggro, but that's pretty much what the crusader does, be a threat to the enemies by planting lots of AoO's on them and pretty much giving them a reason to attack him, it works a bit like a Squire in Homm 5 (Shields allies with 50% more resistance to ranged attack), but a lot more aggresive at tanking the party, Crusaders not only defend the party members, but mess up the enemy with AoO's and gives them real reasons to attack them
And that is exactly what you're supposed to do. The enemy will not be attacking you the entire combat. Your job is to slow him down long enough for the skillmonkey to plink a few crossbow bolts and the mage to set up a couple personal defenses or use an orb or ray while the armored mage stands next to you with a couple combat buffs up and hits him on the face or stays back and uses crowd control/summons
Wrong. As far as I've read around, the work of a Crusader focused in Devoted Spirit is forcing the enemy to attack him by planting AoO's from them with the maneuvers and stances like Thicket of Blades and Iron Guard's Glare, and when they don't attack, well, they get hurt, and with Combat Reflexes, even worse for them, making it a lose-lose situation for them. Oh, there's also this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871270/Tome_of_Battle_for_Dummies).
You have a d10 hit die, some healing maneuvers, and Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike. Fumbling around between a reach weapon and a sword and shield isn't worth it compared to just using the meteor hammer.
I have Shield Block and Shield Counter too, which require a shield, using a Meteor hammer all the time would screw those up, and they're pretty good
Last thing: crusader and shieldmaster are taking up most of your levels. If you wanted to be a sorcerer gish, you should've been a crusader 2/sorcerer X/spellsword 1/swiftblade 10/sorcerer +Y.
I wanted to be a Sorcerer gish cuz I though kiting was viable here, but was told the Arcane Spell Failure would've around 85%, so not exactly worth it, and Cleric too since it eats the initiator levels, so at the End planned on getting a Crusader/Warblade/Shieldmaster, for feats.
Would also suggest to read the Crusader Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655), it's pretty usefull.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-26, 08:13 PM
Like I said in the other post, sorry, never ever gonna happen.
Yeah they told me there was no aggro, but that's pretty much what the crusader does, be a threat to the enemies by planting lots of AoO's on them and pretty much giving them a reason to attack him, it works a bit like a Squire in Homm 5, but a lot more aggresive at tanking the party.
Wrong. As far as I've read around, the work of a Crusader focused in Devoted Spirit is forcing the enemy to attack him by planting AoO's from them with the maneuvers and stances like Thicket of Blades and Iron Guard's Glare, and when they don't attack, well, they get hurt, and with Combat Reflexes, even worse for them, making it a lose-lose situation for them. Oh, there's also this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871270/Tome_of_Battle_for_Dummies).
I have Shield Block and Shield Counter too, which require a shield, using a Meteor hammer all the time would screw those up, and they're pretty good
I wanted to be a Sorcerer gish cuz I though kiting was viable here, but was told the Arcane Spell Failure would've around 85%, so not exactly worth it, and Cleric too since it eats the initiator levels, so at the End planned on getting a Crusader/Warblade/Shieldmaster, for feats.
Would also suggest to read the Crusader Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655), it's pretty usefull.
Dude, I've posted in the Crusader's Handbook.
And your MMO combat system does not work. Clerics aren't just healbots, wizards aren't just blasters. Seriously, google Treantmonk's guide to being GOD, a wizard's guide to being batman, and CoDzilla D&D. Not every fight is going to take place in a 20x20 room with no terrain and groundbound enemies. There are going to be dragons, beholders, manticores, demons, devils, basilisks (how are you going to protect the rogue when he's a statue?), medusas, chimeras, bulettes (they really don't like steel, it's too crunchy), nightmares, worgs, people with caster levels...
Dude, I've posted in the Crusader's Handbook.
:smallconfused: it seem like you haven't, sorry for thinking you didn't.
Clerics aren't just healbots, wizards aren't just blasters. Seriously, google Treantmonk's guide to being GOD, a wizard's guide to being batman, and CoDzilla D&D. Not every fight is going to take place in a 20x20 room with no terrain and groundbound enemies. There are going to be dragons, beholders, manticores, demons, devils, basilisks (how are you going to protect the rogue when he's a statue?), medusas, chimeras, bulettes (they really don't like steel, it's too crunchy), nightmares, worgs, people with caster levels...
Already been told that Clerics aren't just healers and seen the wizard spell list to know it is not a pure nuker. But gotta check that CoDzilla stuff out anyways, thanks :smallsmile:
And for those mobs don't crusaders have to deal with them just like any other Fighter? I mean, the diference is just the ability to reduce damage to party members, get heals and give back the received damage, everything else would just be the same, isn't it? just like Jiriku told me, it depends on what's going on.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-26, 08:58 PM
Already been told that Clerics aren't just healers and seen the wizard spell list to know it is not a pure nuker. But gotta check that CoDzilla stuff out anyways, thanks :smallsmile:
And for those mobs don't crusaders to deal with them just like any other Fighter? I mean, the diference is just the ability to reduce damage to party members, get heals and give back the received damage, everything else would just be the same, isn't it? just like Jiriku told me, it depends on what's going on.
Wielding a two-handed weapon without a shield (or with a buckler, can have its bonus raised by enhancing it) doesn't make you a glass cannon. You still have those damage soaking and healing features.
Heck, my Shock Troopering warblade that has 16 AC at level 17 (0 when charging) isn't a glass cannon. He has 50% miss chance from a potion or cloak of Displacement, and d12 hit die.
But if you want to do sword n' board with a reach weapon, don't go for meteor hammer. Just use kusari-gama and tower shield.
Wielding a two-handed weapon without a shield (or with a buckler, can have its bonus raised by enhancing it) doesn't make you a glass cannon. You still have those damage soaking and healing features.
I hate two-handed, it's pretty much trading defense for offensive; a buckler just gives 1 AC, wouldn't it be more cost effective to just get a Tower Shield and enhance it?, also Shieldmaster gets abilities for it, like Tower Charge, Tower Bash and Impact Shield, it also turns cover into a swift action, and Shield of the Heart makes shield AC work against spells.
I think tower shield would've more worth for the 3+ AC it gives compared to a buckler and get the enhancements, or is it?
Healing maneuvers would work for Heal-Tanking, but wouldn't that require to be more active on just Healing? or get in trouble when they're not available?, I think it would work like Eve-Online active Tanking, but that requires the tank to focus on doing it instead of just take it with high AC, So don't exactly know, but it seems getting AC's better cuz it lets me focus on protecting the party more.
Heck, my Shock Troopering warblade that has 16 AC at level 17 (0 when charging) isn't a glass cannon. He has 50% miss chance from a potion or cloak of Displacement, and d12 hit die.
Don't know exactly how warblades actually work, been pretty much focused on learning to use the Crusader.
But if you want to do sword n' board with a reach weapon, don't go for meteor hammer. Just use kusari-gama and tower shield.
Would've a better idea (didn't pick it for being a scythe, but whatever), but does the Kusari-gama get lesser damage or something because of being a light weapon and screw up threatening the enemies?
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-26, 09:51 PM
I hate two-handed, it's pretty much trading defense for offensive, and a buckler just gives 1 AC, wouldn't it be more effective to just get a Tower Shield and enhance it?, also Shieldmaster gets abilities for it, like Tower Charge, Tower Bash and Impact Shield, it also turns cover into a swift action, and Shield of the Heart makes shield AC work against spells.
I think tower shield would've more worth for the 3+ AC it gives compared to a buckler and get the enhancements, or is it?
Well, two-handed is undoubtedly the best style of fighting in D&D 3.X. Seriously, tower shield makes you give up all your attacks for +4 AC (I'm pretty sure the "can also grant cover" line on the tower shield defense bonus means they don't stack) and +2 to reflex saves, or +4 to AC for -2 to all attack rolls, and lose half your strength modifier plus an extra couple points on damage over two-handed weapons, plus far worse Power Attack returns. Tower shields are not good, and heavy shields are only better due to shield bashing, which is feat intensive.
Healing maneuvers would work for Heal-Tanking, but wouldn't that require to be more active on just Healing? or get in trouble when they're not available?, I think it would work like Eve-Online active Tanking, but that requires the tank to focus on doing it instead of just take it with high AC, So dunno, but it seems getting AC's better cuz it lets me focus on protecting the party more.
Steely Resolve should tide you over until you get a healing maneuver. Stone Power and/or a cleric with Shield Other can help even more.
Don't know exactly how warblades actually work, been pretty much focused on learning to use the Crusader.
Just replace warblade with crusader, and you've got the same guy with about one less hit point per level and some different maneuvers.
Would've a better idea (didn't pick it for being a scythe, but whatever), but does the Kusari-gama get lesser damage or something because of being a light weapon and screw up threatening the enemies?
Yes, but one, two points of damage is worth much less than the action economy. Your job is to stop enemies and do minor damage, plus most of your damage is coming from maneuver bonus damage anyway.
Kusari-gama threatens. Only the whip doesn't.
Flickerdart
2011-11-26, 09:56 PM
I hate two-handed, it's pretty much trading defense for offensive
It's trading two points of AC for being an effective damage dealer. You gain everything and lose nothing.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-26, 10:03 PM
It's trading two points of AC for being an effective damage dealer. You gain everything and lose nothing.
Four points and a two to reflex saves. But he's giving up all his attacks and wasting actions.
Flickerdart
2011-11-26, 10:04 PM
I am assuming that he will not spend his entire adventuring career concealed under the tower shield.
Seriously, tower shield makes you give up all your attacks for +4 AC (I'm pretty sure the "can also grant cover" line on the tower shield defense bonus means they don't stack) and +2 to reflex saves, or +4 to AC for -2 to all attack rolls, and lose half your strength modifier plus an extra couple points on damage over two-handed weapons, plus far worse Power Attack returns. Tower shields are not good, and heavy shields are only better due to shield bashing, which is feat intensive.
Shieldmaster PrC pretty much makes for it, it gets Tower shield Bashing along with Impact shield and gives Powerful Arm (Threats one handed weapons as grabbed by two hands when using a shield), for the reflex part it gives evasion, and when it levels up it gets +1 AC at lvl 2 and +2 at lvl 4, and gives Shield of the heart, that would've great along the Crusader's mettle. I think it makes using shields worth aside from being magic enhancement slots.
Steely Resolve should tide you over until you get a healing maneuver. Stone Power and/or a cleric with Shield Other can help even more.
Oh that helps for it, still would need AC for being able to take the enemies that get on me but this seems to be good for the furious Counterstrike, thanks :smallsmile:
Yes, but one, two points of damage is worth much less than the action economy. Your job is to stop enemies and do minor damage, plus most of your damage is coming from maneuver bonus damage anyway.
Kusari-gama threatens. Only the whip doesn't.
Ok, so it would've better to carry a Kusari-Gama then a meteor hammer for the Reach threatening part, just though damage meant more threat to enemies, thanks again :smallbiggrin:
It's trading two points of AC for being an effective damage dealer. You gain everything and lose nothing.
it's 4 AC, 5 with Shieldmaser PrC lvl 2, 6 with lvl 4.
I actually lose the Shield Counter And Shield Block maneuvers, and pretty much all of the Shieldmaster's abilities, specially Tower Bash, Powerful arm and Impact Shield, which are pretty good when some enemy's near it.
Also, would've using a kusari-gama anyways.
Oh and since everybody came up with the etheral mobs and outsiders, wouldn't a Sword of the Planes help against them?
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-26, 10:29 PM
Oh and since everybody came up with the etheral mobs and outsiders, wouldn't a Sword of the Planes help against them?
Eh, it's kinda weak except in an outsider focused game, and your DM has to let you switch to a kusari-gama. You can buy a +3 weapon for less than that.
But traveling the planes is kinda cool...
But even cooler with 4e fluff...
Alright, I admit it, EVERYTHING is cooler with 4e fluff.
Flickerdart
2011-11-26, 10:32 PM
it's 4 AC, 5 with Shieldmaser PrC lvl 2, 6 with lvl 4.
I actually lose the Shield Counter And Shield Block maneuvers, and pretty much all of the Shieldmaster's abilities, specially Tower Bash, Powerful arm and Impact Shield, which are pretty good when some enemy's near it.
Buckler, later animated shield, gives you a bunch of AC if you really want. For the rest, you could be using all those class features and levels on something much better than a shield. Like, you know, THF.
Buckler, later animated shield, gives you a bunch of AC if you really want. For the rest, you could be using all those class features and levels on something much better than a shield. Like, you know, THF.
There's the catch, Shieldmaster needs to wield the shield, not animate it, it just loses it's charm. And a buckler only gives +1 AC and you can't bash with it.
THF? you mean duals? would have to get Dex 17 for TWF, and would mess up the Cha for saves and the Con for HP, and need at least Str 13 for Power Attack and for Tower Bash.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-26, 10:48 PM
There's the catch, Shieldmaster needs to wield the shield, not animate it, it just loses it's charm. And a buckler only gives +1 AC and you can't bash with it.
THF? you mean duals? would have to get Dex 17 for TWF, and would mess up the Cha for saves and the Con for HP, and need at least Str 13 for Power Attack and for Tower Bash.
Buckler can be enchanted!
Shieldmaster isn't necessary at all. Just use crusader levels.
And he means THF.
Flickerdart
2011-11-26, 10:50 PM
There's the catch, Shieldmaster needs to wield the shield, not animate it, it just loses it's charm. And a buckler only gives +1 AC and you can't bash with it.
THF? you mean duals? would have to get Dex 17 for TWF, and would mess up the Cha for saves and the Con for HP, and need at least Str 13 for Power Attack and for Tower Bash.
Sigh...no. No, I mean none of those things.
THF is two-handed fighting. You know, the one good combat style. The issue is that you're looking at shields like you're saddled with the Shieldmaster levels already, whereas you can take any of the more useful PrCs and not be pigeonholed into a crappy fighting style.
Buckler can be enchanted!
but they can't bash!
Shieldmaster isn't necessary at all. Just use crusader levels.
Shieldmaster pretty much makes shields useful (Seriously, everywhere else shields block attacks, here they don't!), so I pretty much want it. And gonna multiclass to Warblade too for feats and initiator levels too.
And he means THF.
Two-Handed Fighting?, I hate those, they don't let me use the tower shield, no way!
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-26, 11:00 PM
but they can't bash!
Shieldmaster pretty much makes shields useful (Seriously, everywhere else shields block attacks, here they don't!), so I pretty much want it. And gonna multiclass to Warblade too for feats and initiator levels too.
Two-Handed Fighting?, I hate those, anything but those, no way!
*sigh*
You're negating the penalties of two-handed fighting with an animated shield. Your entire argument against THF is that it makes you a glass cannon. :smallannoyed:
And it's basically +5 AC or free compared to +6 AC for a hand slot with a +3 tower shield.
Now, are you going to continue bashing THF, or are you going to admit that you still get the AC bonus?
*sigh*
You're negating the penalties of two-handed fighting with an animated shield. Your entire argument against THF is that it makes you a glass cannon. :smallannoyed:
And it's basically +5 AC or free compared to +6 AC for a hand slot with a +3 tower shield.
Now, are you going to continue bashing THF, or are you going to admit that you still get the AC bonus?
Oh edited it anyways, it doesn't let me use a Tower Shield and get more defensive stuff, and like I said,a buckler doesn't bash, whereas a Tower shield bashes and gives Cover, and like 3+ AC, more cost effective to enhance than a buckler. And an animated shield doesn't give the PrC abilities, and a shield is pretty useless without the PrC (only gives the AC and Cover), more so a Buckler.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-26, 11:05 PM
Oh edited it anyways, it doesn't let me use a Tower Shield and get more defensive stuff, and like I said,a buckler doesn't bash, whereas a Tower shield bashes and gives Cover, and like 3+ AC, more cost effective to enhance than a buckler.
Cover means giving up all your attacks. Including AoOs.
You can very well get an animated tower shield.
Cover means giving up all your attacks. Including AoOs.
Yeah, but it protects agains some spells, like cones and some breath weapons, Would've usefull in cases of a pretty strong monster that would overpower my tanking.
You can very well get an animated tower shield.
And Again, the PrC works with a held one, not animated, would lose Tower Bash (deals 1d8 damage, so pretty good for threatening enemies), Impact Shield, Tower Charge and Shield of the Heart for just a THW.
Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-26, 11:18 PM
And Again, the PrC works with a held one, not animated, would lose Tower Bash, Impact Shield, Tower Charge and Shield of the Heart for just a THW.
Where does it say that?
Seriously, Powerful Arm and maybe the shield bashing abilities don't work. You still get all your defensive stuff.
Although actually, with Powerful Arm, maybe a kusari-gama + tower shield would be better.
Where does it say that?
Pretty much below the Title.
And the Tower Bash's Taken as a martial Weapon with 1d8 damage that requires Str 13, and haven't seen in the DMG if animated shields can bash, they only float around, Tower Charge's a bull rush, and Impact Shield is a Shield Bash, and still, haven't seen anything about Animated shield bashing. Oh and Powerful arm only works while using a shield, it says there.
Seriously, Powerful Arm and maybe the shield bashing abilities don't work. You still get all your defensive stuff.
Only thing that would seem to not work there is the Shield Fighting (It just says it grants Two-Weapon Fighting), the other stuff seems good to me.
Although actually, with Powerful Arm, maybe a kusari-gama + tower shield would be better.
Pretty much why I chosen later to use the Kusari-Gama, would get both reach and AC when enemies start getting on me
darkdragoon
2011-11-28, 12:52 AM
The Knight has a "challenge" ability, but it's very limited with a restrictive "code of honor." It's a shame because it does have a couple features that do make it somewhat harder to enemies to get away.
Pretty much why I don't exactly like the idea of getting a buckler.
I meant heavy compared to tower. 1 more AC and situational cover is not much of a gain.
The PrC pretty much gives the Impact shield and Shield of The Heart. which are 2 pretty nice abilities, along with some other neat stuff that makes using shields worth it
Impact Shield has iffy wording--seems to have cut off "modifier", and you have no reason not to use the one that adds flat-footed.
Shield of the Heart does save you a feat or two.
Also was suggested the Ruby Knight Vindicator, but it has to have Wee Jas as deity
It has an "Adaptation" section.
Was told to either use the Spiked Chain,Kusari-Gama or Meteor hammer for attacking adyacent too, I think Meteor Hammer's pretty cool and thinking on using it.
The spiked chain is the best all around.
If you still plan on switching between weapons look at getting a "shield sheath" from Races of Stone.
jiriku
2011-11-28, 01:23 AM
Eh. There's some truth to what these guys are saying, but honestly, unless your group is a set of balls-to-the-wall hardcore optimizers, you can make some choices purely for the fun of it and still have a good character.
I'd say the smartest plan for your playstyle is a one-handed reach weapon and a shield of some kind. Kusari-gama and tower shield will work fine, especially if you can bash with the shield (put a shield spike on it, and that's as good as having a sword). If you'd be open to homebrewed weapons, I have a few that might fit the bill as well. If you're wedded to meteor hammer/sword and shield, find a way to switch weapons without spending anything more than a free action to do it - there are plenty of ways. Attaching least crystals of return to the items will give you the benefits of the Quickdraw feat, and slightly more expensive versions of these crystals let you call them to hand even if you've dropped them and moved away. If you troll through the equipment sections of various splatbooks, I think there are items here and there that let you change gear a little faster. If you want to throw money at the problem, you can get gloves that function as extradimensional compartments, allowing you to switch your loadout in a jiffy, or even morphing weapons that switch from being a meteor hammer one round to a sword on the next. Where there's a will (and enough splatbooks), there's a way.
A few things to consider with your items: Having both armor and a shield allows you to get powerful defensive enchantments much more cheaply than other characters can. Heavy fortification is your friend - you do not want to take a x3 critical from an arrow or a greataxe to the face. Soulfire is also your buddy, as it protects you from negative levels and death effects, which might otherwise drop you pretty quickly. When looking at your other gear, immunity to poison, disease, and fear are more valuable to you than to other characters - such attacks tend always to be delivered at close range, and as a tank, you're spending all your time at close range. Fire resistance (and to a lesser extent, cold resistance) is good to have, both because creatures sometimes have damaging auras of those elements and because reckless party members will sometimes catch you with friendly fire. You don't always need to bring your own energy resistance though - often you can cajole the casters in your group into providing it for you.
In fact, if the casters in your party are inexperienced, it's worthwhile to spend time learning their spell lists, and looking for defensive buffs they can learn that would be especially useful for you. Newbie players of caster PCs often don't know their spell lists well enough to offer you these spells on their own, but may be happy to prepare and cast a spell for you if you ask for it by name.
Eldariel
2011-11-28, 02:39 AM
I'd just go straight Crusader with maybe a small Fighter-dip for feats TBH. Heavy Shield (could use Extreme Shield or Tower Shield too but they can't bash; need bash to use Shield Counter so version with those is going to be more restricted) + Kusari-Gama, pick up Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer [CArc], Shield Specialization + Shield Ward [PHBII] & Stand Still [XPH], Defensive Sweep [PHBII], learn the Shield Block & Shield Counter maneuvers, pick up Thicket of Blades (with Iron Guard's Glare as a backup when you don't need Thicket).
The principal issue with Shield Master is that it's from an extremely unofficial source. It also doesn't advance martial maneuvers which kinda sucks but really, the biggest issue with the class is that it's 100% homebrew. You could just make your own version and it'd be just as valid.
With Crusader 18/Fighter 2 or so, you'll have all those fun high level maneuvers/stances like Order Forged From Chaos, War Master's Charge, Immortal Fortitude, Aura of Perfect Order, Strike of Righteous Vitality, etc. You also get all the good stuff faster. It's a bit rough on the feats (if you could use Dragon Magazine content, Exoticist Fighter would learn an Exotic Weapon for free saving you a feat on Kusari-Gama) as you need EWP: Kusari-Gama, Combat Reflexes, Expertise + Improved Trip (two-level Barbarian dip would probably be the easiest way to achieve that), Shield Specialization, Shield Ward and a bunch of useful feats after that.
OP, DnD is very different from your standard PC game with moronic enemies that attack the first thing that comes near them (OK I've heard WoW has some aggro mechanic based on damage, but that too, can be tricked)
Taking damage is not тhe hardest thing in DnD, the hardest thing is making the enemies damage your character. Enemy NPCs with >12 int, enemy casters, demons, BBEGs etc. won't target the BSF (big stupid fighter) with the shield, they'll just fly over him and duke it out with the class that actually is a threat (read: the full caster)
The best non-caster build incorporates things that can at least somewhat control enemy movement and make enemies notice and attack your PC. Hence the Knight suggestion, and probably you got Goad, Never Outnumbered, having a reach weapon etc.
Sure if your DM is lenient or inexperienced or brainwashed by movies, you'll be a level 15 Crusader hacking away at mobs of goblins and mindless undead and you'll feel awesome for it. But at that level enemy spellcasters will just circumvent you, disable you or simply ignore you.
Hence the best tank IMO would be either a Cleric or a Druid. Be scary enough to warrant them attacking you. Then be beef enough to take some hits. Note that the higher the level becomes, the more useless AC becomes. Tanking via AC is nigh-on-impossible and it's mostly gear dependant. Getting concealment, mirror images, DR and other such stuff is better.
A Cloistered Cleric / Crusader / Ruby Knight Vindicator could work for you, but I can't give you specifics on a build. Also I apologize if these things have been said already, I don't have the time to read trough 5 pages of replies.
Gwendol
2011-11-28, 07:44 AM
In D&D, tanking IS crowd control. There is no "draws enemies in". Without constant control, they'll briskly walk past you and deal with the guy in linen robe who's been slinging around the pain.
What was the build?
Knights get Test of Mettle to draw aggro from the weak of will. I honestly don't understand how LG alignement can interfere with skills, but Test of Mettle and Bulwark of Defence are the abilities needed to build an effective tank, combined with reach. Lots of reach.
Suggested feats are: Combat reflexes (required), Stand still, Mage slayer, Imp trip, robilar's gambit, defensive sweep, etc
If you can squeeze the Thicket of Blade stance in there, all the better.
Optimizing intimidation and fear effects also may be worthwhile.
Eldariel
2011-11-28, 07:52 AM
Knights get Test of Mettle to draw aggro from the weak of will. I honestly don't understand how LG alignement can interfere with skills, but Test of Mettle and Bulwark of Defence are the abilities needed to build an effective tank, combined with reach. Lots of reach.
No, they are not. Test of Mettle is an easy save off a secondary stat. It's a terrible ability. Bulwark of Defense is nothing compared to Thicket of Blades. Knights are at most mediocre at tanking. Crusaders are the masters.
The combination, while occasionally mentioned, is not really very efficient. A Crusader does not need Bulwark of Defense, and Knight's Challenge is a rather mediocre ability.
Reach and AOO build alone with control options is enough. However, getting lots of reach without absurd feats (like Aberrant feats or Deformities) is kinda hard so one has to work with what one's given.
Gwendol
2011-11-28, 08:41 AM
Test of Mettle works fine at the lower levels of play. It is far from powerful, but has its uses. Bulwark of Defense is an excellent ability when combined with reach. Preventing 5' steps is always useful, and it also doubles the movement cost for tumblers.
Combined with Thick of Blades you will have something exceptional.
Eldariel
2011-11-28, 05:53 PM
Test of Mettle works fine at the lower levels of play. It is far from powerful, but has its uses. Bulwark of Defense is an excellent ability when combined with reach. Preventing 5' steps is always useful, and it also doubles the movement cost for tumblers.
Combined with Thick of Blades you will have something exceptional.
The issue is, Test of Mettle is derived off Charisma which doesn't tend to be trivial to buff to useful degrees. The save DC is also derived off your class level. And it's got some annoying restrictions to boot.
Bulwark of Defense + Thicket of Blades == Thicket of Blades. All the benefits pretty much overlap other than if you fail your control maneuvers, perhaps. Bulwark increases tumble move costs, Thicket just plain makes Tumble irrelevant. Bulwark prevents 5' steps, Thicket makes 'em provoke. There's just little utility in having Bulwark + Thicket over just Thicket; certainly not worth 3-4 class level investment.
Alabenson
2011-11-28, 06:25 PM
Speaking as a fellow WoW tank, I think I can help you see the basic issues you're going to be running into with what you're trying to do.
To start with, imagine tanking a heroic instance. Now, take a minute to imagine what tanking that heroic instance would be like if none of the mobs had an aggro table.
....
You now should have a rough idea of what tanking in DnD is like.
In general, you would be better off approaching DnD from a WoW PVP mindset, rather than a PVE one. In other words, debuffing / action denial are much more effective approaches to combat than trying to force opponents to attack you.
jiriku
2011-11-28, 07:27 PM
In general, you would be better off approaching DnD from a WoW PVP mindset, rather than a PVE one.
That's a really good way to put it. D&D is 100% PVP, all the time, because the DM controls all of your opponents. There is always a clever human being controlling the actions of every monster.
In general, you would be better off approaching DnD from a WoW PVP mindset, rather than a PVE one. In other words, debuffing / action denial are much more effective approaches to combat than trying to force opponents to attack you.
Yeah, been thinking it that way :smallbiggrin:, though also mixed it with Lineage 2 PVP too, like Paladin shield stun spam, that would be here using the impact shield a LOT, but of course, would use the skills depending on situation.
Heavy fortification is your friend - you do not want to take a x3 critical from an arrow or a greataxe to the face. Soulfire is also your buddy, as it protects you from negative levels and death effects, which might otherwise drop you pretty quickly. When looking at your other gear, immunity to poison, disease, and fear are more valuable to you than to other characters - such attacks tend always to be delivered at close range, and as a tank, you're spending all your time at close range. Fire resistance (and to a lesser extent, cold resistance) is good to have, both because creatures sometimes have damaging auras of those elements and because reckless party members will sometimes catch you with friendly fire.
They all seem pretty useful for the getting-monsters-on-me stuff, thanks for mentioning them, gonna take note :smallwink:
If you're wedded to meteor hammer/sword and shield, find a way to switch weapons without spending anything more than a free action to do it - there are plenty of ways. Attaching least crystals of return to the items will give you the benefits of the Quickdraw feat, and slightly more expensive versions of these crystals let you call them to hand even if you've dropped them and moved away. If you troll through the equipment sections of various splatbooks, I think there are items here and there that let you change gear a little faster. If you want to throw money at the problem, you can get gloves that function as extradimensional compartments, allowing you to switch your loadout in a jiffy, or even morphing weapons that switch from being a meteor hammer one round to a sword on the next. Where there's a will (and enough splatbooks), there's a way.
Did I ever tell you HOW AWESOME YOU ARE?, never knew of the crystal stuff but it would save me some feats and even work better!, gotta check it out, thank you!! :smallbiggrin:
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