Cleric VS Oracle

[Acanous]

So myself and Kharot have been having a discussion about Oracles and Clerics in party mechanics. I personally favor the cleric- you get bigger spells faster, heavy armor proficiency, don't need to take a curse, get two domains.
Kharot argues that Oracles are better- Free SLA's, more spell slots, have access to the same abilities that the cleric does (Channeling, etc).

Personally, I believe this boils down to Wizard V Sorc, where the wizard, as we all know, wins. But Kharot is not convinced.

So, we put this to the forum: Using Pathfinder books/SRD Only, how can one of these classes outperform the other?

[AmberVael]

I find that divine prepared casters have an even bigger advantage over their spontaneous counterparts than wizards do over sorcerers- because divine prepared casters know all the spells.

That's really the big difference. The cleric ultimately has access to every divine spell ever... Oracle doesn't. Cleric wins out because of that, in the long run- everything else (better casting stat, faster gaining of higher spells, really awesome domains) is just gravy.

[Psyren]

Clerics actually don't get heavy armor in PF.

Though they lose out on quite a bit without access to 3.5 (e.g. divine feats) I still give clerics the edge here. The cleric list is a massive toolbox, and being able to choose any spell from that to cover a situation is aces; particularly when they don't even have the Wizard's minor restriction of needing to hunt for scrolls first.

So, basically what Vael said I guess.



The Oracle curses aren't really much of a drawback though, particularly since they all give you sweet stuff to compensate.

EDIT: Am I missing something? How do Oracles get Channel Energy/TU?
EDIT2: Oh, Life Mystery. But that just restricts your choices if you want that ability.

[Novawurmson]

Clerics, by definition, can break the game in more ways than an Oracle. Tier 1/Tier 2.

I find Oracles more fun, flavorful, and balanced than Clerics. Play whichever you enjoy more :D

[Kantolin]

I find that divine prepared casters have an even bigger advantage over their spontaneous counterparts than wizards do over sorcerers- because divine prepared casters know all the spells.

On the other hand, especially in lower-optimized play, a cleric is then less likely to trade out their spells every morning for completely different ones.

Sometimes my wizards change days and cast in a very different way than before, but generally speaking my clerics tend to be somehwat more similar from day to day - maybe this spell tweaks, maybe I toggle that spell, but certainly not as often as most.

I mean... if my melee-clerics had Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might as spells known, that'd do a good job of emulating most of my spell lists. :P Clerics in fact have tons of candy, but less of it than arcanists.

The big exception to that rule is 'Cure malady on left toe' - I would totally not want to have 'cure specifically this' as a spell known and sit on it 90% of the time. In 3.5, the Panacea spell rectifies that neatly, but I'm not sure how pathfinder handles it.

Now, that stated... cleric is still better for an array of reasons listed above.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

IME an oracle with the human alternate favored class bonus and some useful curative scrolls is just as versatile as a cleric. The big issue is that the cleric still gets higher level spells a level earlier.

[Pilo]

{{scrubbed}}

[Acanous]

This isn't trolling, it's a serious question resulting from an IRL discussion.
Kharot would like me to build a cleric and put it side by side to an oracle he's making (Level 8) and see which one could handle situations more easilly, or with fewer actions/spells.

I brought up that Life Mystery restricts your options, but he said that locking into domains restricts the cleric as well, making both about equal. Also he swears by life mystery as though all other mysteries suck- like barbarian totems. Who does not go spirit lion?

[BobVosh]

There is on other totem that is popular, I want to say it is bear. Regardless, 8th level seems like an odd spot to chose. Is it his concept of a sweet spot in D&D? Just because of upgrades to the domains?

Also don't forget the out of combat ramifications of being capable to cast divinations that oracles (despite the name) have trouble justifying.

[Acanous]

Pretty sure he picked 8th level because that's the level he's building a character for in an upcoming session (which I will not be playing or DMing).

So far, my gaming friends- who have all swapped to "Pure" pathfinder, have been rolling Oracles instead of Clerics for divine casting since the system came out. This is mostly due to one person in particular saying very loudly and often that Oracles are better than Clerics for party support (No, it's not Kharot, it's someone else :p)

Now, myself being a mediocre optimizer, I've been opposing this statement for months, but it keeps happening that whoever is going divine caster takes Oracle. If it were "This looks cool and I'd like to try it" I'd be fine with it, but it's "Everyone says this is better than cleric so it must be and I'm gonna play one".

I fully intend to play a cleric sometime in the near future, campaign wise, and show them how it's done, but that's a good month or two away real-time and won't help the argument.

The Divination point is a very good one. Cleric can prepare all the plot-revealing spells one day, then go in the next pre-buffed for the fight.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Unless I'm missing something, the Life mystery isn't a "must take" mystery in the way that pounce is a must-have for barbarians. Its best abilities allow you to heal in combat better instead of using your offensive or buff spells more effectively, and it gives you spells known that are better off as scrolls, like the restoration line. I'm guessing he likes combat healer, but that's going to eat through spell slots pretty quickly and require you to be on or near the front lines. Safe curing alleviates this somewhat, but it's also sorta weak for a mystery by itself. He probably also likes spirit boost, but rounds/level temporary hit points is also sorta weak compared to other things you can get. I'm going to edit this post and add in other mysteries and mostly explain why that mystery can be much better.

Edit: Nvm, just going to list the better ones. The Battle mystery also gives you combat healer, and buffs that aren't on the cleric list, and abilities which make it more feasible to be near the front line in combat.

The Heavens mystery gives you more early offense like Color Spray, and it allows you to use it longer by mucking with the HD cap.

The Outer Rifts mystery gives you the Planar Binding line. 'Nuff said.

The Time mystery has a great late-game spell list and a Haste/Slow SLA the same time the wizard gets to prepare them.

[Sarone]

It boils down to this: What is the role for the divine caster? Straight healing? Melee Buffing/debuffing? Skill monkey? Spell Slinger?

It's a comparison of Jack of All Trades (Cleric) versus a Specialist (Oracles).

With out looking at Archetypes, here is a rundown of the Pathfinder Cleric and Oracle:

Both:
Alignment based Cure/Inflict
Good Will Saves
Divine Casters: They are not affected by wearing armor unless you choose not to have the wear it.
Divine Tied: You are tied to the diety(ies). You therefore most try to immulate them in the game (to a degree)

Cleric:
Domain Spells: A selection of two spells/level that you get for free. Cannot be changed for cure/inflict spells.
Domains: Additional support for spells and such effects. Can help or break your character
Single Diety: You are restricted to one diety unless your GM houserules something different
Spell Access: You get everything that isn't blocked by alignment or your diety's Alignment.
Spell Preparation: Except for the Cure Spells, you must assign a specific spell to each slot after an hour of preparation.

Oracle:
Mystery Spells: At every even level (2,4,6, etc.) you get another spell, whether or not you wanted it.
Mystery Revelations: At 1st, 3rd, 7th, and every 4 after, you get an additional special ability that further augments your abilities in your chosen field. This also further specializes and gives you access to some cleric abilities, depending on the mystery involve.
Multiple Dieties: For you, the dieties decided to give you a piece of thier power. As long as you are in favor (for some players/mysteries, this is further tied to).
Curse: With great power comes great cost. From being blinded, lame, or tongue tied, the Diety(ies) took something. Probably in a show of humility and such.
Spell Access: You aren't as flexible as the Cleric. You have a select few spells. The good news? You don't have to prepare them.


A team that can get access to a Cleric and an Oracle will have their healing covered. Divine focused items might be strained if both player want to get for thier characters, but in the end that happens. While the Cleric could try to prepare for any and all contigency, the Oracle can handle the repetitive buffing, debuffing, and healing. They also can cover the battlefield control as well and the various secondary roles (melee support, crowd control, etc.).

It also means that the gods and goddesses are taking a very personal interest in the affairs of mortals.

In the end, both Clerics and Oracles have thier place.

[Karoht]

Hokay, since Acanous is talking about me, I thought I should come and clarify my position.

First and foremost, thanks so far for the great input. Yes, I know that Oracles are Tier 2, Cleric is Tier 1, and there have been some great points of comparison.


Currently, I am playing an Oracle (8th level) in a strictly Pathfinder only campaign. Before anyone points out anything to do with 3.5, I should identify that this is both a DM decision and a player group decision, one that I'm not willing to invest the time and effort in arguing to change. Hence I will say thanks in advance to anyone who suggests a 3.5 spell/feat/prestige class or anything else from 3.5, but ultimately it isn't hugely relevant here.

Second, my Oracle is in the role of main party healer, with no other divine caster in the party. We do have a straight wizard (no idea if an archetype was selected or not), to serve most of our batman-ing purposes.

Third, I'm not arguing at all that Life mystery is THE mystery. However it is highly applicable to Oracles for healing purposes. Usually, I lean on my second best direct heals whenever possible, my best direct heals when needed, and channel (or a Quicken Channel + another action) when called for. If I don't need to heal, I'm usually casting a buff or some manner of battlefield control. I got a lot of mileage out of Spear of Purity and Sonic Burst for locking down casters. And I have the Energy Body revelation to allow me to heal 3 times a turn (Quicken Channel + Energy Body + Other).

My next character will be a Cleric, with a Melee focus, but will still likely be there for healing as well. If someone wants to show me a better way to heal, that would be awesome.
I keep hearing tales of how Clerics can supposedly heal, damage, battlefield control, and buff, but seeing as I'm specialized to heal because that is what the party needs, I don't really see what I should be doing differently, or how a Cleric would do it differently. Especially seeing that I'm currently doing all those things already. Supposedly it can be done better.

Again, open to suggestions or arguements (suggestions for my Oracle, arguements on how a Cleric would do what I'm doing only better, at my level), and no I'm not arguing that an Oracle can or is doing it better. Though I will admit, as my first ever non-prepared caster, I'm having rather a lot of fun.