Eliminating Magic Mart

[DoctorGlock]

Ok, first off, this is not about "PCs should get junk items and be happy with it", I fully believe PCs need access to full WBL in relevant gear. I just find the concept of a store or organization with the wealth needed to run a magic mart just sitting there and engaging in merchant work a bit hard to swallow. I find the though of magic item prices in general a bit... irritating.

Consider that the cash the paladin spends on his +5 could buy a small nation, why is he buying a sword rather than creating an example good utopia?

A magic mart where you can buy a +10 equivalent armor or weapon, heck, in bulk even, can buy a small planet. Why are they running a market stall?

A single first level dungeon crawl, heck, even hiding and looting the first room, will keep a commoner family fed for months. Why ain't more commoners risking their hides as adventurers?

In short, D&D economics in general has me scratching my head. I want players to have access to WBL equivalent gear while still having a believable economy.

So, I had some ideas I am tinkering with, maybe y'all can chime in with suggestions.

1: Eliminate the gold piece as the WBL standard. Instead, everyone has WBL in equivalent "points" to imbue non magical items with. These are abstract points, they can represent your normal length of chain being enchanted while in your hands because you are just that awesome or they can represent you using your magic to do it the old fashioned way. Either way, everyone can manifest magic items up to their manifestation limit (WBL). Now there are no salesmen with the ability to take over the world and the paladin has a reason to burn WBL on gear instead of utopias because it's just another class feature rather than independent something.

-this allows you to give NPCs enough gear to challenge PCs without ending with PCs having 30x WBL

-this allows the average joe to manifest some gear (not much, but some) and improve standard of living.

2: GP still exists, it is used to but non magical anything and for basic living expenses. The question is how much they should get. Or should I just take that out of manifestation points?

This is obviously for a non gritty high magic setting where just about everyone can just poof magic items into being . I just want a consistent reason for the D&D economy to work.

What effects will a system like this have on the game (if any)

[marcielle]

Well, without fast and simple means of expanding their spellbook, wizards go from Godlike to simply very powerful. Unless you can make scrolls by putting points into paper or you have friendly mages/libraries in abundance. Meelee fighters go pretty much unchanged since a lot of their WBL goes into gear anyway. Now they just can't switch out their weapons for a minor loss and have to plan ahead.

Basically you are inforcing a sorta toned down version of Weapons of Legacy. Though I think I like your version a bit better than their gobledeegook. Maybe make it so only the person who originally put points into the weapon can use that weapons powers unless special circumstances occur.

[Eldan]

The imbuing idea is, at the very least, an interesting one. But I'd still include magic item creation on top of that, for a few reasons: the personally imbued items would, if I understand it correctly, be personal. But sometimes, you want items you can transfer to someone else. That's where item creation would come in.

[Acanous]

I've always been of the "Enemies disintegrate upon death and drop RNG treasure" camp.

This way, the party rogue could actually make decent use out of picking pockets- that gear would otherwise die with the enemy. That, and the party is easier to keep at WBL.

[DoctorGlock]

The imbuing idea is, at the very least, an interesting one. But I'd still include magic item creation on top of that, for a few reasons: the personally imbued items would, if I understand it correctly, be personal. But sometimes, you want items you can transfer to someone else. That's where item creation would come in.

I had the same worries. The issue is how much WBL should be split like that. On BG someone said they used a similar system, went 80/20 imbue/real. Still there should be reduced need for item transfer if the recipient can manifest/imbue/coalesce from raw firmament his own gear. The problem is in the creation of wands and scrolls and whatnot.


I've always been of the "Enemies disintegrate upon death and drop RNG treasure" camp.

This way, the party rogue could actually make decent use out of picking pockets- that gear would otherwise die with the enemy. That, and the party is easier to keep at WBL.

I suppose the system does kinda shaft theft related acquisition. But on the bright side with the imbuing method of WBL generation the party is always at proper WBL.


Tier system never takes WBLmancy into account, but what if normally lower tier classes can suddenly manifest their own stuff like this. Does the delf sufficiency from the fighter being a demi-artificer raise his capabilities or is it the same as before?

Also, how often should someone be able to manifest/calibrate his gear loadout? 1/day assign stuff from your virtual WBL? 1/week?

[Chronos]

The biggest problem I've always had with the idea of a magic-mart is, why doesn't anyone rob the place? And if the shopkeeper is powerful enough to hold off all the would-be thieves, why isn't he the one off saving the world?

Another indirect problem is that it seriously waters down things like dragon treasure. In older editions, once you'd slain a dragon, you could pretty much afford anything that money could buy. It wasn't really unbalancing, though, because most of the best things, money couldn't buy. Nowadays, though, with players being able to buy such raw power, they've had to tone down dragon treasures to an amount that could fit into a couple of milk crates.

My preferred approach is to keep the party at appropriate WBL, but to do so via specific items found in treasure (with consultation with the players, but the DM getting the final say). You can also use this to help balance out a party: If the wizard is hogging the limelight and making the fighter feel inadequate, then just put a few more battleaxes and a few less wands in the pile of loot the party gets (yes, that's metaphorical; I know that multiple battleaxes don't really stack in usefulness). And if they really want something specific, presto, instant adventure hook: They find out where one of those thingies is, and can (try to) go get it.

[Victoria]

The biggest problem I've always had with the idea of a magic-mart is, why doesn't anyone rob the place? And if the shopkeeper is powerful enough to hold off all the would-be thieves, why isn't he the one off saving the world?

Perhaps his motivation is just to make a lot of money? Perhaps he sells magic items he crafts on the side of an adventuring career? Retired adventurer? There are a lot of ways I can justify a high-level item crafter not adventuring.

[Kobold-Bard]

The biggest problem I've always had with the idea of a magic-mart is, why doesn't anyone rob the place? ...

All those magic items have to come from somewhere, usually one or more high level spellcasters who will be quite put out if they start losing money. Do you really want them after you for a few magic items?


And if the shopkeeper is powerful enough to hold off all the would-be thieves, why isn't he the one off saving the world?

...

Why doesn't Bill Gates end world hunger? Not everyone wants to be a PC & save the world, some people just want to be obscenely rich & live in a demiplane modelled on the Mount Olympus of legend; cloud furniture and all.

--------
Maybe give the PCs the benefits of Droylt's VoP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428) without the actual poverty aspect, then give them 1/10 the usual WBL in actual gold to spend on building orphanages/burning down orphanages/etc.? That way all the basics are covered (so lack of wealth doesn't mean instant TPK), and you can give some bespoke magic items occassionally, to keep the feel of old fashioned dragon loot and such.

Trade out VoP abilities if your players want specific things (effects from Rings etc.). PC's and important NPCs get full VoP affects, lesser NPCs get 1 level's worth/2HD, 3HD, etc. depending on how much they deserve.

Just an idea I had.

[Ernir]

I'm using a combination of partially replacing WBL with "points" (very similar to what Ericgrau does in his Balanced Low Magic Item System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134805)), and magic items being generally commissioned rather than picked off the shelf in my latest campaign. I've yet to see the implications, though.


Why doesn't Bill Gates end world hunger? Not everyone wants to be a PC & save the world, some people just want to be obscenely rich & live in a demiplane modelled on the Mount Olympus of legend; cloud furniture and all.

I don't disagree with your point, but Bill Gates is a really bad example. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation)

[Coidzor]

Afford your party downtime. Then, either a party crafter can do it and you don't even have to worry about it beyond getting an itemized list or you give them the opportunity to establish a professional relationship at least with an NPC crafter.

Bam.

If you really want to get rid of the mountains of GP thing, then one possibility you'll want to look into would be assigning level values to the items, I think MIC did a bit of that, basically of when they become appropriate for play and possibly look at 4e & shake your head at their idea of an appropriate allotment of gear based upon PC level and the levels of the items.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

I don't disagree with your point, but Bill Gates is a really bad example. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation)

I needed someone exceptionally wealthy, and Bill Gates was the one I can most imagine commissioning a Mount Olympus style holiday home.

[Coidzor]

Ahh, Bill Gates. He's not compatible with 3.X. (http://www.lanceandeskimo.com/paul/bill.shtml) So you'd have to update him.

[DoctorGlock]

I'm using a combination of partially replacing WBL with "points" (very similar to what Ericgrau does in his Balanced Low Magic Item System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134805))

Thanks, this is basically exactly what I was going for. The powers are all inherent, a manifestation of the character's will or sheer awesomeness. I am thinking of letting players remanifest on a daily basis (this should help the lower tier folks get some versatility), any thoughts on this? I doubt it will happen very often because tracking your WBL is a big PIA.

[Socratov]

I'm using a combination of partially replacing WBL with "points" (very similar to what Ericgrau does in his Balanced Low Magic Item System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134805)), and magic items being generally commissioned rather than picked off the shelf in my latest campaign. I've yet to see the implications, though.

My DM told my friend who had enough money for a keen falchion, that it was possible, but it would take a few weeks in game to make one... So yes on magic mart, no on everything on stock.


I don't disagree with your point, but Bill Gates is a really bad example. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation)
that's the thing, rich people often start foundations and fundraisers once they find out they have too much money to spend. Especially for self made billionaires, who want to help their kids make it on their own, without giving them everything.
When asked if warren shouldnt leave more money for the inheritance he said:


(The perfect amount of money to leave children is) enough money so that they would feel they could do anything, but not so much that they could do nothing.

[AmberVael]

The biggest problem I've always had with the idea of a magic-mart is, why doesn't anyone rob the place?
Because the Magic-Mart is run by someone who can afford to make and sell tons and tons of really powerful magic items. You don't want to mess with someone like that.


And if the shopkeeper is powerful enough to hold off all the would-be thieves, why isn't he the one off saving the world?
Lots of potential answers, but I'll just name one. Because they've realized that enabling a hundred heroes is better than trying to do everything on their own.


Anyway, I've personally eliminated the vast majority of items in my campaign setting with my Virtual Wealth system. It's a fair bit like the WBL "points" idea.

[Keneth]

I've always hated the fact that gold is the primary currency for adventurers. A standard adventurer has enough money to buy a continent by the time they reach lvl20 and it's just plain ridiculous that you can use the same amount of money to buy a suit of armor and a sharpened piece of steel.

To solve this, make the standard currency copper, leave the prices of all mundane things as they are but convert the prices of all magic equipment to copper pieces (1:1). This way the characters still get all the equipment but their actual wealth is by far more realistic. A total of 7 to 8 thousand gold pieces per lvl20 adventurer should fit into the economy of mortals just fine. You can adjust this to silver pieces instead if you feel that the characters should at least be able to buy a standard castle by the time they finish adventuring.

[Jack_Simth]

The biggest problem I've always had with the idea of a magic-mart is, why doesn't anyone rob the place? And if the shopkeeper is powerful enough to hold off all the would-be thieves, why isn't he the one off saving the world?
Ah, methods... or 'how to make the Magic Mart profitable':

The mart is a front. That's not where the loot is. How it works:

The man at the front has a catalog. It's made of paper and ink. He writes down what you want from the catalog, looks up the prices, takes your money, and goes into the back to fetch it.

In the back, he puts the money and your written order into a cursed portable hole. This portable hole ejects stuff from it's pocket plane two rounds after the hole is closed (it's close to useless, but could be used creatively). He then tosses the portable hole through a ring gate he has mounted on his wall (note: Magical containers are sent through the Ring gate directly, and alternate arrangements are made for golems and things).

At the other end, the ring gate is in a cavern, mounted to a wall above a short tunnel (facing away from the tunnel). This cavern is heavily trapped with assorted traps that go off on any creature not on a short list of specific individuals appearing there. At the end of the tunnel, the mage that actually runs all this waits. A portable hole pops through one of the gates, he waits until it dumps it's load. He then sends his golem through to pick up any goods (which he analyzes without touching). He directs the golem through handling the order, has it fetch the appropriate item (or gold, if it's a sale) from storage, puts it all in the portable hole, has the golem close the portable hole and toss it back through the ring gate.

Back at the front, the portable hole pops out of the ring gate, the shoppkeeper unloads it, and takes your goods (or coins) out to you.

If you try to rob the shoppkeeper... congrats, you just robbed an Expert-1. You get a small amount of cash, half of a ring gate set, a mostly-useless cursed portable hole, and a bounty on your head (if you keep it quiet enough, and can forge the expert-1's signature, you have a portable shop and a small monthly wage as long as you stay within the proper radius of the central hub).

If you try to invade the domain of the mage that actually runs this... you pop through a Ring gate into a contained area where twenty save-or-lose traps in different flavors zap you all at once, then a golem or three come in and start pounding on you while the high-level Wizard uses an offensive arsenal of spells on you. Oh yes, and he can do all the batman wizard tricks, and actually has reason to ask questions about the future and what's coming, so he knows roughly which defenses you've got active when you come into his parlor (which also has Forbiddance up except for some small spots at the ring gates, as well as a Permanent Mage's Private Sanctum).

While not foolproof, it's reasonably secure. The mage can take most comers... in his fortress, that's heavily guarded. He's not going to go out and save the world, though.

[Socratov]

I've always hated the fact that gold is the primary currency for adventurers. A standard adventurer has enough money to buy a continent by the time they reach lvl20 and it's just plain ridiculous that you can use the same amount of money to buy a suit of armor and a sharpened piece of steel.

To solve this, make the standard currency copper, leave the prices of all mundane things as they are but convert the prices of all magic equipment to copper pieces (1:1). This way the characters still get all the equipment but their actual wealth is by far more realistic. A total of 7 to 8 thousand gold pieces per lvl20 adventurer should fit into the economy of mortals just fine. You can adjust this to silver pieces instead if you feel that the characters should at least be able to buy a standard castle by the time they finish adventuring.

dude, at lvl 20 you are actually the best, the creme de la creme, basically in power the demigod. The fact that you can buy a continent, ok, how about in power, you can screw up the total world... By lvl 20 Clerics are deus-ex machina, wizards are walking nuclear warheads, druids are that force of nature... (ok, got the most powerful classes here, but the principle applies to chargers etc. as well...) Ofocurse teh suit of armor is expesive: it takes a lot of XP and time to be made by other high level people. If you ahte the economy that much, make it so you can only craft your own gear at a certain point.

[Mnemnosyne]

If what you want is to simply remove the silly concept of a store stocking dozens of powerful magical items on its shelves, that's pretty easily done without changing much of anything. I prefer the explanation that you don't simply walk into a store and buy items, you have to hunt those items down. This can all be abstracted by the DM and players into 'I buy a Staff of the Magi' but in point of fact, the character is actually spending a considerable amount of time, effort, and perhaps money simply to learn who has an item that they may be willing to sell. They may have to send messages and runners across half the bleeding continent. Even in a city like Sigil where everything is going to be available in the city, you still don't know exactly where to go for it, and most of the 'magic item shops' are really just places where the owners keep lists of who has what and who's willing to sell what for how much. They just connect sellers to buyers and take their cut of the profits.

This is why you only get half the price of an item when you sell it. The other half is 'expenses' that the buyer incurred just to learn about your existence and willingness to sell the item they want.

[Keneth]

dude, at lvl 20 you are actually the best, the creme de la creme, basically in power the demigod. The fact that you can buy a continent, ok, how about in power, you can screw up the total world... By lvl 20 Clerics are deus-ex machina, wizards are walking nuclear warheads, druids are that force of nature... (ok, got the most powerful classes here, but the principle applies to chargers etc. as well...) Ofocurse teh suit of armor is expesive: it takes a lot of XP and time to be made by other high level people. If you ahte the economy that much, make it so you can only craft your own gear at a certain point. The power of the characters is irrelevant, it's the gain in currency that's broken. Sure, you can destroy the entire plane with an electron bomb at level 20 but that wasn't the point, I'm quite alright with power scaling at that kind of rate because it's fun (I could always run an E6 campaign if I felt it was too absurd). Changing the standard currency to copper doesn't change the gameplay at all, it merely puts it in a more realistic context. Over the course of a few months (roughly the time it takes to reach high levels), you gain about 7k gold which is enough for about 15 families to live perfectly luxurious lives.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Except for certain places like the City of Brass, the most valuable magic item you can buy in a metropolis is 18,000 gp, AKA a +3 sword.

That being said...

I've always hated the fact that gold is the primary currency for adventurers. A standard adventurer has enough money to buy a continent by the time they reach lvl20 and it's just plain ridiculous that you can use the same amount of money to buy a suit of armor and a sharpened piece of steel.

Why do you want the continent? I'd rather buy Excalibur, Excalibur's sheath, and the youngest brother's invisibility cloak than North America.

[Calmar]

I also hate the concept of Magic Mart. I had the idea to treat merchants of magic items like treasure hoards - you assign a level to the sage or store and use the tables in DMG to determine randomly each week or month the PCs visit them which wondrous items, potions, scrolls, magic weapons etc. they have in store, as well as how much cash they have to buy stuff.

[Keneth]

Why do you want the continent? I'd rather buy Excalibur, Excalibur's sheath, and the youngest brother's invisibility cloak than North America.You're gonna want to buy equipment for your character, clearly, that's why you have that arbitrary amount of gold in the first place. The problem is that those two should not be comparable in price (buying land from clueless natives doesn't count), you reduce the price of magic which is silly to begin with and the problem goes away. It does take some fiddling around with the prices beyond what I described but this is a relatively simple solution the problem of adventurer wealth.

[Diefje]

You could rule that large amounts of gp are extremely rare. You can buy/sell "cheap" magic items with gp, but anything expensive you have to trade for other magic items that you find adventuring. That way you're never dealing with absurd amounts of gold yourself.

Or write up scrolls of bank credit/store credit. Gp is just a measure of value, it doesn't automatically mean you can get that much gp for it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You're gonna want to buy equipment for your character, clearly, that's why you have that arbitrary amount of gold in the first place. The problem is that those two should not be comparable in price (buying land from clueless natives doesn't count), you reduce the price of magic which is silly to begin with and the problem goes away. It does take some fiddling around with the prices beyond what I described but this is a relatively simple solution the problem of adventurer wealth.

Dude, level 20 characters are gods in everything but the immortality. They can destroy armies without magic, or walk in the air with only slight magic and no external forces (8th level swordsage stance). The ones that use magic can shape continents, changing grasslands to rolling hills or deserts to swamps with only a single spell. These heroes wield weapons of world-shaking power.

[thamolas]

It sounds like the best way, really, is to make the campaign world a low-magic one and reinforce this by massively upping the xp cost (with a multiplier) of magic item creation for magic-users (and gp value for everyone). In such a setting, people don't have the gold to trade in anything more than the very most common items, eliminating the magic mart from the landscape entirely. Magical treasure should be rare and every item precious. The only real GM challenge then would be to balance encounters accordingly (so as not to overwhelm a low-magic party with immunity-heavy monsters). I can't see any other way to do it without cheating someone's abilities, whether it be the rogue or the wizard.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It sounds like the best way, really, is to make the campaign world a low-magic one and reinforce this by massively upping the xp cost (with a multiplier) of magic item creation for magic-users (and gp value for everyone). In such a setting, people don't have the gold to trade in anything more than the very most common items, eliminating the magic mart from the landscape entirely. Magical treasure should be rare and every item precious. The only real GM challenge then would be to balance encounters accordingly (so as not to overwhelm a low-magic party with immunity-heavy monsters). I can't see any other way to do it without cheating someone's abilities, whether it be the rogue or the wizard.

No. This is the mistake DMs who want low magic worlds make. Casters might be rarer, sure, but your party doesn't see a difference, since monsters still have SLAs and you still have a cleric and wizard in the party. But you're not even making casters more rare, you're straight out nerfing mundanes. Increasing magic item cost means your fighters and rogues, even your warblades and factotums, are behind on their attack and damage, while your casters don't care.

[Treblain]

The problem with Magic Mart was never that you could buy ridiculously expensive items there. A character only needs a handful of ridiculously expensive items in his lifetime. Buying them is uncommon enough that a DM can reasonably tell the character to seek out the one guy in the mountains who owns a +5 sword, even in a world with Magic Mart. This is fantasy; of course there's a wizard who devoted his life to crafting the ultimate suit of armor to sell to a worthy hero. It's the less expensive items that stretch credibility. Like many things in 3.5, the problem with magic items has more to do with variety than power.

[Zaq]

There are times when I think it would be fun to get a random generator to decide everything that the local magic item store has in stock (and I mean literally everything—every scroll, every potion, every sword, every trinket), and that's what's available to buy. Period. This would be compensated by a Weapons of Legacy-style system where folks could get the items they really wanted by making them with their own awesomeness, and a VoP-like inherent bonus system to keep the raw numbers where the game expects them to be.

I've never wanted to put in the effort needed to make such a system and tweak it into something resembling balance, though. It seems like a lot of work, and I doubt that most players would even appreciate it. Oh, and there's also the fact that I'm pretty bad and GMing and don't do it when I don't have to. So yeah, probably never going to actually do something like that, but in my idle moments, I occasionally think it might be fun.

[Madara]

My humble submission is to suggest that most DnD world have funny economics because fighting happens all the time. There are two DnD economies; The Adventurers did it, and the we're too poor for war. In the first, most NPC experience being touched by combat, and because of such, wealth NPCs spend their money on ways to protect their money. An important factor is that most NPCs Most Characters(PC or otherwise) don't save money. In the second(and less common) the GM will make magic items less available, and they will be retreived, not bought.

A lack of banking and weal security/ police forces make characters spend fast or spend some on ways to protect the rest of their money. (Exceptions do apply. Think about Eberron, where banking exists along with magic marts)

[Incanur]

I appreciate this idea and have had similar thoughts of my own for a decidedly non-D&D system. The notion of magic items that gain their power through involvement in great deeds appeals to me.

As an example, after the knight slays the dragon, he finds that his sword has grown sharper and the metal harder. "Quenched in the blood of the red wyrm," the minstrels sing about the blade. It's as if the steel absorbed a measure of the dragon's might.

In the D&D context, you just say that items level alongside characters. The trick comes in whether such items can be used by anyone or only the character in question.

To me, what matters most is eliminating that overwhelming focus 3.x D&D puts on wealth and market relations.

[PotatoNinja]

Ok, first off, this is not about "PCs should get junk items and be happy with it", I fully believe PCs need access to full WBL in relevant gear. I just find the concept of a store or organization with the wealth needed to run a magic mart just sitting there and engaging in merchant work a bit hard to swallow. I find the though of magic item prices in general a bit... irritating.

Consider that the cash the paladin spends on his +5 could buy a small nation, why is he buying a sword rather than creating an example good utopia?

A magic mart where you can buy a +10 equivalent armor or weapon, heck, in bulk even, can buy a small planet. Why are they running a market stall?

A single first level dungeon crawl, heck, even hiding and looting the first room, will keep a commoner family fed for months. Why ain't more commoners risking their hides as adventurers?


If a nation or world cost as much as the respective weapons you listed, i think you might have very well severely under crafted the world in which such magic marts exist.

I use Magic marts, because i run countries with hundreds of millions of inhabitants, and cities with millions. A plus 5 weapon wouldn't even buy the building it's housed in, let alone a nation or world. Hell, i'v crafted buildings that a +10 weapon MIGHT cost as much as a single room. I'de have to go check.

I could address more, but it would take hours to find all the points i wanted to address in this thread and to adequately express my opinions and justifications, so i'll keep it short and simple :p For the most part, WBL does start to break once you introduce well equipped humanoid opponents, and it is a huge problem.

Magic marts can be tremendous problems if the world they are put into is not capable of handling them. In a world where easy access to powerful weapons is the norm for people, and there are alot of people, you should be very ready to handle large scale conflicts and political movements. They are definitely not for worlds where you want your characters or players to become international known on the minds of every common folk for their heroic deeds. They are more useful in a world populated with many higher level players, and where the adventurers are less unique for their positions of power and achievements.

ALl comes down to flavor of the game your playing, they work great or break the game, depending.

[Incanur]

As has been mentioned before elsewhere, one of the strangest aspects of the 3.5 wealth system is that the PCs don't get to be rich. Every gp matters, so anything they spend frivolously reduces their odds of surviving the next encounter.

[PotatoNinja]

Indeed, i mostly ignore the whole thing. It's an odd system.

[navar100]

To eliminate the magic mart, just give the PCs magic items they actually want and will use as part of treasure. That doesn't mean give the players everything they want as soon as they want it. It does mean if the fighter likes to use the greatsword and spent feats facilitating such use, a flaming longsword +1 is just not going to light up his eyes. The wizard will yawn at the 5th wand of magic missile found. The rogue already has a magical rapier, thank you, why is there a 4th magic one in treasure in as many hoards? The cleric has enough wands of Cure Light Wounds. Why does every magic ring seem to be a ring of protection or sustenance? Bracers can have ACs better than +4. Oh wow, another cloak of resistance +1.

I understand DMs not wanting to be Monty Hall, but come on already. It's not going to kill the campaign for the PCs to have useful and interesting magic items.

[DoctorGlock]

If a nation or world cost as much as the respective weapons you listed, i think you might have very well severely under crafted the world in which such magic marts exist

I'm basing it off the numbers in the DMG for city wealth. The biggest metropolis listed has 600,000 GP in it. A level 20 PC has 760,000 GP. IN a setting with loads of high level PCs and NPCs running around (like FR, which has lvl 13+ caravan guards- 110,000 GP is enough to buy cities) it makes little sense for them to not be engaging in games of "I own everything because I can"

The problem is less with magic marts, though those really seem to highlight it, and more with player to world wealth in general. I want to reduce that discrepancy by making player wealth largely virtual- they do not actually have that kind of money because it is sort of ridiculous- instead they have the items equivalent to their WBL and those have no impact on the economy. Making WBL a class feature rather than heaps of gold and hyperinflation preserves most settings, especially those that aim for "realism" in their games. Also the thought of just walking into a store and buying excalibur is slightly jarring to me, even when the players are expected to have it by level X. Hence the manifestation system where they have it because it is an extension of themselves rather than "Black Friday Sale, all legendary weapons worth cities 20% off"

Im sorry if this isn't making much sense, I am having some trouble refining my point and getting to the specifics of what really bothers me about it beyond the wealth discrepancy.

[Doc Roc]

Well, without fast and simple means of expanding their spellbook, wizards go from Godlike to simply very powerful. Unless you can make scrolls by putting points into paper or you have friendly mages/libraries in abundance.

Oooorrr they'll just make bargains with hell and heaven, totally derailing your game potentially.

[DoctorGlock]

Oooorrr they'll just make bargains with hell and heaven, totally derailing your game potentially.

Well, they should not have to, they basically imbue their spellbook with new spells out of their WBL pool.

This thing needs a better name. Manifestation Points sounds like psionics, Enchanting Pool sounds like the normal magic item system. Imbue was taken by arcane archer, and some of us still think the class exists.

[Coidzor]

I'm basing it off the numbers in the DMG for city wealth. The biggest metropolis listed has 600,000 GP in it. A level 20 PC has 760,000 GP. IN a setting with loads of high level PCs and NPCs running around (like FR, which has lvl 13+ caravan guards- 110,000 GP is enough to buy cities) it makes little sense for them to not be engaging in games of "I own everything because I can"

Huh? Saying a metropolis has 600,000 GP in it would suggest that's about as much loose change in the area as can be gathered, not the cost it would take to buy out everyone inthe city. :smallconfused:


Im sorry if this isn't making much sense, I am having some trouble refining my point and getting to the specifics of what really bothers me about it beyond the wealth discrepancy.

Indeed, especially because the problem with such things as it's usually presented just boils down to the premise you've rejected which is having a problem with the players being able to acquire the items they wish to acquire.

[Doc Roc]

Huh? Saying a metropolis has 600,000 GP in it would suggest that's about as much loose change in the area as can be gathered, not the cost it would take to buy out everyone inthe city. :smallconfused:


Actually, it's not even that. That's the expected current maximum line of credit representing net goods open to easy acquisition at the moment.

In short, it's the subset of liquid capital that people are willing to convert into goods or services on zero notice for a murder-hobo.

[Keneth]

Dude, level 20 characters are gods in everything but the immortality. They can destroy armies without magic, or walk in the air with only slight magic and no external forces (8th level swordsage stance). The ones that use magic can shape continents, changing grasslands to rolling hills or deserts to swamps with only a single spell. These heroes wield weapons of world-shaking power. I'm sorry, I don't see how any of that justifies the price of magic. Whether the weapon is "world-shaking" or not bears no difference, there's no good reason why it should be worth that much gold unless you're making yourself a golden trebuchet (incidentally that would cost a lot more since gold is really heavy relative to its volume).


Actually, it's not even that. That's the expected current maximum line of credit representing net goods open to easy acquisition at the moment.

In short, it's the subset of liquid capital that people are willing to convert into goods or services on zero notice for a murder-hobo.This basically. You can't buy the whole city but you can buy yourself a castle and a bunch of houses which amounts to a small town. You can definitely start a city with that kind of money but it's doubtful you could buy an existing one (unless it's really poor). But whether or not the examples are exaggerated, it doesn't change the point.

[Coidzor]

But whether or not the examples are exaggerated, it doesn't change the point.

Not really, since there's the question of why buy a city when you can acquire the personal power to conquer one. Or get it to give itself to you gift-wrapped without having to pay one red cent.

[Doc Roc]

Not really, since there's the question of why buy a city when you can acquire the personal power to conquer one. Or get it to give itself to you gift-wrapped without having to pay one red cent.

Or use the power of Genesis to create your own pocket world to tuck a palace into. Just fold up, move out, automate, and never go back.

[Cicciograna]

There are times when I think it would be fun to get a random generator to decide everything that the local magic item store has in stock (and I mean literally everything—every scroll, every potion, every sword, every trinket), and that's what's available to buy. Period. This would be compensated by a Weapons of Legacy-style system where folks could get the items they really wanted by making them with their own awesomeness, and a VoP-like inherent bonus system to keep the raw numbers where the game expects them to be.

Allow me... (http://www.inkwellideas.com/roleplaying_tools/magic_item_shop/)

[Zaq]

Allow me... (http://www.inkwellideas.com/roleplaying_tools/magic_item_shop/)

Most classy. Shame it doesn't include non-SRD items, but that's to be expected for something that's posted somewhere for all to see.

The hard part I referred to is really in the balancing subsystems, rather than the item shop generator, but that's still pretty cool.

[Tyndmyr]

Ok, first off, this is not about "PCs should get junk items and be happy with it", I fully believe PCs need access to full WBL in relevant gear. I just find the concept of a store or organization with the wealth needed to run a magic mart just sitting there and engaging in merchant work a bit hard to swallow. I find the though of magic item prices in general a bit... irritating.

Why not? I frequently take crafting feats when open games with many players are a thing. It's a fantastic way to make extra money, save some on my own purchases, etc. It isn't at all hard to believe that others would do the same, or that shopkeepers would seek to make a profit buying and selling what others produce. That's just like reality.


Consider that the cash the paladin spends on his +5 could buy a small nation, why is he buying a sword rather than creating an example good utopia?

You can't create a utopia through cash alone. I'm sure he'd love to do this, someday, and live there happily, creating a just society. After he gets done saving the world. And if he's not alive after this adventure, and the world ain't saved...well, that's not a thing to worry about, now is it?


A magic mart where you can buy a +10 equivalent armor or weapon, heck, in bulk even, can buy a small planet. Why are they running a market stall?

This isn't a problem with the magic mart. This is a problem with the description of the magic mart.


A single first level dungeon crawl, heck, even hiding and looting the first room, will keep a commoner family fed for months. Why ain't more commoners risking their hides as adventurers?

Ever seen the survivability of a first level commoner in a dungeon crawl?

There are plenty of horribly risky careers that make great money in real life.


In short, D&D economics in general has me scratching my head. I want players to have access to WBL equivalent gear while still having a believable economy.

Then flesh out the economy. That corner stall isn't the infinite magic mart. No, he's just one shop of the twenty in town, and there's manufacturers everywhere. He might not have the exact thing you want, but for a few gold, he'll find out who does and get it to you.


1: Eliminate the gold piece as the WBL standard. Instead, everyone has WBL in equivalent "points" to imbue non magical items with. These are abstract points, they can represent your normal length of chain being enchanted while in your hands because you are just that awesome or they can represent you using your magic to do it the old fashioned way. Either way, everyone can manifest magic items up to their manifestation limit (WBL). Now there are no salesmen with the ability to take over the world and the paladin has a reason to burn WBL on gear instead of utopias because it's just another class feature rather than independent something.

That's not a believable economy. That's video game logic.


-this allows you to give NPCs enough gear to challenge PCs without ending with PCs having 30x WBL

If the above isn't hyperbole, you should probably seriously look into reworking your encounters heavily. If the world consisted of nothing but PCs with full WBL killing other PCs with full WBL, you would level up rapidly enough to not really have to worry about being over WBL.


-this allows the average joe to manifest some gear (not much, but some) and improve standard of living.

Average expert can make enough off a trade skill to live a pretty decent life, and have some minor magical goodies(like say, an everburning torch for nighttime interior light).


2: GP still exists, it is used to but non magical anything and for basic living expenses. The question is how much they should get. Or should I just take that out of manifestation points?

Non magical costs are...fairly trivial. mostly. Until you get into army building and the like. You will face equally large realism problems with this route.


This is obviously for a non gritty high magic setting where just about everyone can just poof magic items into being . I just want a consistent reason for the D&D economy to work.

Why would such a system have gold, and have lots of magical items, yet never trade one for the other?

In what way would making people behave unlike every society known result in realism?

[DoctorGlock]

Ok, I admit to the frequent use of hyperbole in my posting, but it still confuses me as to why the numbers are so high in relation to lower level/non magical stuff considering how dirt common magic seems to be. The fact that trade occurs is not the unrealistic part but rather that a magic sword can cost more than a castle for effects that really do not seem that special.

Also, most encounters in my games are with equivalent level NPCs rather than monsters. Properly equipping them while still having it so that looting the corpses doesn't result in a "wealthiest man on earth" competition is difficult, as well as dealing with the fact that so much of the worlds wealth is in the hands of random murder hobos with overpriced shiny bits. I suppose I'd be happier with the economy if everything was lower- lower wealth and lower prices so the PCs have the same junk without each one being Bruce Wayne, i'd find it a bit more believable.

[Tyndmyr]

Ok, I admit to the frequent use of hyperbole in my posting, but it still confuses me as to why the numbers are so high in relation to lower level/non magical stuff considering how dirt common magic seems to be. The fact that trade occurs is not the unrealistic part but rather that a magic sword can cost more than a castle for effects that really do not seem that special.

Only if the castle isn't at all that special. See also, Stronghold Builder's Guide. Building a proper castle isn't actually that cheap. Sure, a peasant's hut is rather affordable, but a fairly magical sword is worth rather a lot of peasant's huts by any reasonable standard.


Also, most encounters in my games are with equivalent level NPCs rather than monsters. Properly equipping them while still having it so that looting the corpses doesn't result in a "wealthiest man on earth" competition is difficult, as well as dealing with the fact that so much of the worlds wealth is in the hands of random murder hobos with overpriced shiny bits. I suppose I'd be happier with the economy if everything was lower- lower wealth and lower prices so the PCs have the same junk without each one being Bruce Wayne, i'd find it a bit more believable.

First off, it should be fairly easy to equip NPCs such that the loot is not generally ideal for the PCs. In fact, this should happen fairly often by sheer chance. The 50% hit on reselling it is rather notable. Secondly, consumables used in combat do not add to loot at all.

Secondly, NPC WBL is already low, and even PC WBL isn't that high.

Consider a bunch of PCs that are level 2. Each has 900 WBL, and kills no monsters to level up. Instead, they kill each other, and loot full WBL from their kills.

After approximately four duels(it's actually a bit less), one of them has leveled, and stands atop the four corpses he killed, and waves his gains of 3600 gold. But wait...standard WBL by now is only 2700. Sure, he's up a bit, but if he has to sell some of that(and he'd almost have to, wouldn't he?) for half, or if any potions were consumed....he's probably at about par.

[Akisa]

Only if the castle isn't at all that special. See also, Stronghold Builder's Guide. Building a proper castle isn't actually that cheap. Sure, a peasant's hut is rather affordable, but a fairly magical sword is worth rather a lot of peasant's huts by any reasonable standard.



First off, it should be fairly easy to equip NPCs such that the loot is not generally ideal for the PCs. In fact, this should happen fairly often by sheer chance. The 50% hit on reselling it is rather notable. Secondly, consumables used in combat do not add to loot at all.

Secondly, NPC WBL is already low, and even PC WBL isn't that high.

Consider a bunch of PCs that are level 2. Each has 900 WBL, and kills no monsters to level up. Instead, they kill each other, and loot full WBL from their kills.

After approximately four duels(it's actually a bit less), one of them has leveled, and stands atop the four corpses he killed, and waves his gains of 3600 gold. But wait...standard WBL by now is only 2700. Sure, he's up a bit, but if he has to sell some of that(and he'd almost have to, wouldn't he?) for half, or if any potions were consumed....he's probably at about par.

Not to mention now that he's by himself someone may find themselves willing to risk fighting him for gear as his risk vs reward tipped in the wrong direction.