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View Full Version : Fantasy settings and prevalence of magic



jseah
2011-11-26, 09:16 AM
I get the distinct impression that magic in most fantasy settings is something that comes from the outside and alters the world. Commanding arcane power is usually equated to rewriting universal rules.

Along with this comes things like mundane warriors who achieve the limits of human ability, unsustained magic that "goes away" almost like... well, magic.
This strongly implies that magic is not "normal" and not a part of the setting, but more like something tacked on.


Have there been fantasy settings where magic is just another part of life and the universe? Where there isn't a divide between "magic" and "mundane" since the magic is normal.

shawnhcorey
2011-11-26, 09:48 AM
Sorry but magic has always been something extra that you do. For example, spilling salt is considered bad luck since, at one time, salt was very expensive. So, you took a pinch of the spilled salt and threw it over your shoulder to cancel the bad luck. That was magic. Magic always appears to be tacked on since it's always something extra you do.

erikun
2011-11-26, 10:08 AM
The way you are defining it, no. Your definition of magic seems to roughly be anything outside the realms of realistic actions, and as such, you aren't going to see a magic system that is limited to only physical things a person could do. That is somewhat the definition of magic: Having the ability to do the supernatural.

That said, I think I understand what you mean. You are looking for a magic that is more "integrated" or "natural", or one that interacts with daily lives rather than is called upon by specific individuals.

Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea novels come to mind as a magic that is tied more to the lifeforce or health of the caster than to calling upon outerworldly powers. Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series revolves around characters who can injest and use metals for magical abilities; some characters are stronger than others, but everyone has the same basic ability. Jim Butcher's Codex Alera is very similar, with daily lives of a lot of characters based on the magical talents they possess.

A lot of the worlds of Piers Anthony have a large amount of inate magic, especially the Xanth series. For that one in particular, everybody has a single magical talent they possess.

Moving outside the more magic books, there are stories where the magic tends to be high-level alchemy or low-level chemistry, and so the "magical" effects are implied to be the result of mixing specific substances rather than summoning outerworldly forces. Some fantasy works try to go the high-science route and explain prophecies or magical occurances in multiple dimensions or quantum theory; Merlin, of King Arthur fame, tend to get presented as a dimensional traveller as an explanation of his knowledge more often than not.

If you are looking at science fiction as well as fantasy, then you will see a lot of "psi" in placement of magic - if you want a more internally-influenced magic than externally-influenced one.

Conners
2011-11-26, 10:23 AM
There are also settings where everyone and their dog, and their dog's mom has magic. I forget the names.

Knaight
2011-11-26, 10:50 AM
There are also settings where everyone and their dog, and their dog's mom has magic. I forget the names.

Harry Potter is the obvious example. It isn't uncommon in urban fantasy in general however.

Jay R
2011-11-26, 11:13 AM
Magic comes from outside from our point of view only because we don't believe in it. But in cultures that do believe in it, magic isn't rewriting universal rules, but an integral part of them.

Dryads aren't alien intrusions of the trees, but their very essence. Astrology assumes that magic is part of the rules of astronomy. Use of totems implies that objects have magic within them. Superstition assumes that there is magic in cats, ladders, mirrors and salt.

The word "spirit" comes from the prosaic Greek work for breath. "Magic" comes from "magus", which is just the Persian priestly class. "Mystical" originally just meant hidden or unknown. A wizard is just a sage or philosopher, from the same root as "wise"; it didn't come to mean a magician until the 1500s.

Tolkien makes the distinction in the Lord of the Rings, and clearly disapproved of the magic that is not inherent in the world: "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to us the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel."

It is only the fact that we are observing from a materialistic, non-magical outlook that makes magic appear alien.

Edit: Sorry, I missed your second question. Stories in which magic is part of the world include most fairy tales or stories written before the Industrial Age (all mythologies, the King Arthur romances, Orlando Furioso, etc.) Modern examples include the Lord of the Rings, the Narnian chronicles (which show traveling from a world with very little magic to one made from magic), Heinlein’s Glory Road and Magic, Inc. and many others. Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series is a wonderful farce of people with (mostly) modern attitudes living in a magical universe. Rincewind once wonders whether it would be possible to harness the energy of the lightning to run machines for us, but dismisses it because who could believe in that while living on a flat world held up by four elephants standing on the back of a great turtle?

Shadowknight12
2011-11-26, 11:38 AM
I'm writing in such a setting. I could spew out a veritable flood on it, but I'll keep it to the basics.


In order for magic to be compliant with the laws of physics, I needed a way to create mass and energy from nowhere. In order to do so, I used nuclear reactions to justify the transformation of mass into energy and viceversa, and created a substance that is neither, and may freely transform itself into either, for a short period of time.
That substance was then given to every sentient being. Excuse? "It's what souls are made of." Presto, now every being has the ability to create any kind of mass and/or energy.
Secondly, I needed to avoid the conundrum of a universe where constant mass and energy are being added to it. So I made this substance revert to its original (and imperceptible) state after an undetermined period of time.
To solve applications of magic where something must change or disappear, I created a plane of existence (placeholder name: Ethereal Plane) where everything that enters that location is transformed into the same substance: Aether. Mass could be sent into the Aether and later recovered, justifying how a dragon can shapeshift into a human. This would cost an expenditure of energy that would be paid with 'magic,' i.e., the substance in every sentient being's soul.
Then I created a cycle of expenditure and reabsorption of magic. When you perform magic, the substance that can change into anything is expended. As it reverts to its original form, it is deposited into its surroundings. Beings regenerate their inner reserves of magic by absorbing it from their surroundings, thereby obeying the Law of Conservation.
The only problem left was the fact that souls came and went as people were born and died, so there must be an external (possibly infinite) source of magic, since more people are born than they die, so there's an unbalance in the soul flow. I decided to leave it a mystery since I'm making it so for the afterlife. Every religion has its explanation, with its corresponding supporting and contradicting evidence.
Then I made it so that different magic styles are based on the philosophical question of "Where is power?" and made it so that every different answer generated a completely different flavour of magic. Some cultures believe there's power in mysticism and rituals, other believe that power comes from the gods, others that there's power in certain runes/words/acts, or in physical contact, or in a bargain fulfilled. The source of magic is always the same, what changes are the ways in which individuals tap on it and the effects they generate.
In case it's not clear, this means that everyone, including animals and plants, have magic. That accounts for dragons that can breathe fire, plants with special magical properties, mythological beasts and the like. However, I *am* including a magic/mundane division, but it's patently different than the one most people think of. In this setting, 'magic' stands for anything that requires extensive training and knowledge to achieve, so a mage is the equivalent of a doctor, professional athlete or soldier. Anyone can perform first aid, or physical activities, or shoot a gun, but the doctor, athlete and soldier have dedicated their entire lives to those things, and can out-perform anyone who hasn't. Lighting a candle isn't magic. Setting an entire village on fire is.


That about covers it.

kieza
2011-11-26, 01:07 PM
I've got a homebrew setting where magic is just another branch of physics. (Complete with high-energy magic research, magic particle accelerators, and an SI unit of measurement.) Magic is explicitly another form of energy, which obeys the laws of conservation of energy and other physical laws, and can be converted into kinetic, thermal, electrical, EM, etc. as needed. A lot of wizards, and almost all artificers, are similar to physicists and engineers.

Now, a lot of people in this setting still view magic as something unnatural, because they don't understand it. Part of this is that magic can accomplish some very strange things using a spellcaster's subconscious: it can alter people's thoughts by rearranging electrical impulses, for example, even if the caster doesn't know how it works. Another contributor is that most people in the setting aren't casters; it takes either a lot of dedication and education, or an inborn talent. It's like the first days of electricity, when most people didn't know how it actually worked, and treated it like...well, magic.

You could also draw parallels to how modern media treats complicated physical concepts like quantum mechanics, exotic particles, antimatter, etc.: The viewers/readers don't know how it works, the writers don't know how it works, so it comes across as something magical instead of obeying a set of rules and being a part of the natural order.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-26, 02:04 PM
Harry Potter is the obvious example. It isn't uncommon in urban fantasy in general however.

Yep, the entire world of Harry Potter is complete magic based and there isn't anyone anywhere that doesn't use magic.:smallwink:

*cough*muggles*cough*

Yora
2011-11-26, 02:24 PM
I like magic that comes from a concept similar to chi. Everyone has it, but only very few know how to really use it to its full potential.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-26, 03:02 PM
I like magic that comes from a concept similar to chi. Everyone has it, but only very few know how to really use it to its full potential.

A:TLAB?:smallwink:

FMA alchemy is pretty cool too.

Yora
2011-11-26, 03:13 PM
ATLAB?

I was more thinking of taoist mystics with all their cool magic powers. (And buddhist monks thinking they are lame.)

TheThan
2011-11-26, 03:26 PM
I like the Conan take on magic. It exists, and people know it exists. But it’s rare to find a true wizard or cleric (Conan makes almost no distinction between the two). Everyone’s frightened of it, and people who use it usually give up part of themselves for it (commonly their humanity). The magic they wield is powerful, frightening to behold and not at all of this earth, but it is rare and not unbeatable. Conan himself is skilled at fighting magic, though he himself is not a magician at all.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-26, 03:29 PM
ATLAB?

Avatar: the Last Airbender

Yora
2011-11-26, 03:31 PM
That's not magic, that's bending. :smallbiggrin:

erikun
2011-11-26, 04:06 PM
I like magic that comes from a concept similar to chi. Everyone has it, but only very few know how to really use it to its full potential.
That's right; I meant to point out a lot of anime and manga. The eastern concept of "magic" is a lot different from the western view, and it is generally assumed to be natural and something everyone has access to... given sufficient training and understanding to do so.

jackattack
2011-11-26, 06:30 PM
Lawrence Watt-Evans' "Ethshar" novels explore various types of magic, which is common but still the purview of various guilds and trained practitioners.

Tolkien's elves are a good example of a society in which magic is completely integrated, to the point that they are confused when someone asks them about "magic". Everything they make, possibly including the songs they sing, is infused with arcane power to some degree.

Knaight
2011-11-27, 07:22 AM
Yep, the entire world of Harry Potter is complete magic based and there isn't anyone anywhere that doesn't use magic.:smallwink:

*cough*muggles*cough*

Eh, the muggles can basically be discounted, as their actual impact to the relevant portion of the setting is pretty trivial. This is like stating "what about the oceans" when someone mentions the entire world being colonized by humans, that they don't count is taken as known and doesn't warrant being pointed out.

Jay R
2011-11-27, 09:43 PM
I strongly recommend Tolkien's essay "On Fairy Stories", available in The Tolkien Reader to anyone who wants a much more complete background on what is inherent in a fantasy world.

Blacky the Blackball
2011-11-28, 06:13 AM
The default Runequest setting of Glorantha immediately springs to mind.

Magic isn't something that comes from outside the world so much as simply knowing how the world works.

Where it gets tricky is that other social and religious groups have their own ideas of how the world works which are completely different to yours - yet their magic works too!

Then there's always Mage: The Ascension of course. That has a related premise in that magic is knowing how the world works yet different groups with different ideas of how the world works can all use their magic. At the lowest level of enlightenment, even muggles (sorry, sleepers) use magic all the time without realising it - they just call it "technology".

Serpentine
2011-11-28, 06:31 AM
Have there been fantasy settings where magic is just another part of life and the universe? Where there isn't a divide between "magic" and "mundane" since the magic is normal.In my homebrew world, magic is a fundamental part of the fabric of the universe, like photons and electrons. Spellcasters are just people who know how to use it, like blacksmiths are just people who know how to use heat and the natural qualities of metals.

If you're thinking more generally... Tamora Pierce's Winding Circle books might be an example. Magic is even woven into things like bandages and clothing and buildings.

Earthwalker
2011-11-28, 10:39 AM
I also have to say Runequest, and its default setting of Glorantha. A world where everyone has magic of one kind or another.

You might only have a bless crops spell you get yearly from the grain goddess but you have a spell. Everyone picks up some spirit magic or divine.

Also Earthdawn, magic is a part of everyones life. Not everyone has / uses magic but all the PCs will. They are part of a discipline (class) and they use magic focused for the task the discipline do.

Arbane
2011-11-28, 02:23 PM
It's not exactly 'magic', but most if not all kung-fu/wuxia settings take it for granted that anyone who truly applies themselves can learn to crack anvils with a punch or leap four stories straight up.

In Exalted, magic isn't a fundamental force of the cosmos, it's THE fundamental force. Things like gravity and fluid dynamics only work the way they do because the Primordials decreed it would be so, and there's a host of gods carrying out their duties to make it happen. Humans can't USE magic without a lot of careful training (or Exaltation), because the Primordials are bastards like that, but anyone with two functioning brain-cells knows how to placate important deities.

Knaight
2011-11-28, 02:46 PM
It's not exactly 'magic', but most if not all kung-fu/wuxia settings take it for granted that anyone who truly applies themselves can learn to crack anvils with a punch or leap four stories straight up.

Qin: The Warring States has probably the best presentation of that. There are the Taos, and basically anyone who is anyone is either an actual mage or a Taoist master of some sort. One of the Taos basically is cracking anvils with a punch, at the middle end. The lower end is restricted to small wooden constructions, the upper end involves shattering buildings and boulders.