Legend: It's out! Talk about it!

[afroakuma]

It's a pretty rare day when something from our very own Homebrew boards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220977), made by members of this forum, breaks out of its chains in the dark, dank dungeon so many users avoid and escapes into the realm of public release.

But that's exactly what just happened! Today, I'm pleased to announce, I just bought my copy of Legend (http://www.ruleofcool.com/), a pretty slick d20 system that represents one of the best efforts Homebrew has ever managed to put out. Even if that site name is just ridiculous.

Anyway, I'm reading through my .pdf copy now. Who else has bought or is thinking about getting a copy? What do you guys think of it so far? Why is the Sage art doing the imaginary limbo? So many questions...

[Esser-Z]

Nice to see it releasing! I love this game.

[TroubleBrewing]

Love the "pay what you want" system, especially when it goes to such a good cause as Child's Play.

As soon as I drop my paycheck off, I'll be picking up my copy!

[Esser-Z]

Yeah, I've been playing (IT ROCKS) with beta versions and such for a bit now. Going to get a release copy as soon as I get my paycheck deposited.

[Scarlet Tropix]

I already got myself a copy as well. My group and I have been looking for something new in the d20 vein and running Legend seems like the perfect answer. I'm looking forward to character creation next weekend and can't wait to see further content.

And hey, it makes me feel good to donate to charity.

[Nohwl]

i already have a copy and a few characters built, character building is much faster than in other systems i've played. i mean it would take me a couple weeks to build a character in some other systems, it's maybe 3 hours for a character in legend.

[afroakuma]

Love the "pay what you want" system, especially when it goes to such a good cause as Child's Play.

I dunno, I think for a charity that system's really going to rob you of donations. You'll get at least two people stealing it for every one who chips in.

[Eldan]

So, the question I think I should ask is, before I look at it:

Why should I care about it? What does it give me that nearly ten years of third edition homebrewing and houseruling don't give me? I looked at the Beta, it had a few elegant ideas, but overall, nothing that seemed very new.

[afroakuma]

Probably going to be a matter of taste. I know for me, the single biggest perk is throwing off the ludicrous weight of 3.5's baggage. It's also pretty slim and quick to pick up. Product doesn't hit the high notes for me, but that's because I always fly like lightning over to the monster sections (I like monsters).

In terms of new, I think the vertical customization idea is really new - I've never seen something bring it off quite like this. I guess it depends on what you're looking for, though - if you demand a "new paradigm on fantasy roleplaying" or something like that, then I can't say I blame them for not accommodating that desire; I think a system anyone can use can get the high-falutin' ideas going later on just as easily.

So I don't really know what to tell you, Eldan. What is it that would get you to care about it?

[Bucky]

Why should I care about it? What does it give me that nearly ten years of third edition homebrewing and houseruling don't give me? I looked at the Beta, it had a few elegant ideas, but overall, nothing that seemed very new.

Just to name one example, Legend has meaningful multiclassing at level 1.

To answer your implied question, if third edition with houserules suits your group's style very well, or you enjoy the materiel in its larger collection of sourcebooks, by all means stick with 3.5. However, even if you ignore the system-level changes, Legend has a number of combat feats that are worth back-porting as homebrew.

[Eldan]

Yeah, I saw that system, dividing classes into three tracks, and I thought about stealing it. However, I've been playing 3.5 like that since pretty much always: my players usually come to me with something like "Hey, can my rogue have Flurry of Blows instead of Trapfinding?" and I tend to allow it.

That said, I'll give it a look later. Does it have any nice fluff? That's usually the first thing i read.

[afroakuma]

Yeah, I saw that system, dividing classes into three tracks, and I thought about stealing it. However, I've been playing 3.5 like that since pretty much always: my players usually come to me with something like "Hey, can my rogue have Flurry of Blows instead of Trapfinding?" and I tend to allow it.

That was my first impression of it too, but honestly the setup makes it a bit richer than class feature swaps. Which could be good or bad, depending.


That said, I'll give it a look later. Does it have any nice fluff?

Enh. There's some in the races chapter and hints about a campaign setting, but the site says they're not publishing that until later. Which is a shame, I do love me some fluff.

[Nohwl]

from what i've heard about the campaign setting, i liked it.

[nedz]

The website appears to be down.

[Wings of Peace]

As the journalist who did the Q&A session with Jake prior to full release, it brings me an immense amount of pleasure to see Legend doing as well as it is after so little time out (past the $500 mark, woo!)

Edit:
The website appears to be down.

From what I've heard this is being worked on. It sounds like it'll be back in a bit.

[afroakuma]

There's an interview? I know there was a review circulating that looked pretty solid. Where was this?

[imperialspectre]

The website is functioning again. We're working to find any problems that might cause it to go down again.

[Novawurmson]

It looks like they're making about $16 a download on average. That ain't bad.

[afroakuma]

It looks like they're making about $16 a download on average. That ain't bad.

No, that's $16 a donor on average. Doesn't look like they have a download tracker. Nonetheless, word-of-mouth from "free" copies might still get them new donors, so I suppose that's not a total loss.

[Dr.Epic]

Aww man. I thought this would be about the film Legend. No Tim Curry in this thread.:smallfrown:

[TroubleBrewing]

It's about something BETTER!

[PEACH]

I really enjoy this system. It's light, balanced, and the character customization options are pretty huge and meaningful, especially with the promise of future DLC. While I've always enjoyed 3.5, it's very nice that I can throw together a character relatively quickly and be assured that it will always be on a relatively even playing field with any other character, and it seems like any character archetype can easily be supported.

I already chipped in $10 dollars, and I encourage anybody else doing so to donate as well.

[afroakuma]

Aww man. I thought this would be about the film Legend.

That film is bad and you should feel bad.

Tim Curry is forgiven for being the only watchable part of it.

[dextercorvia]

I have been out of the Legend loop for awhile (no group to play it with), but I'm glad to see they decided to make the first multiclass feat free.

[Dr.Epic]

That film is bad and you should feel bad.

Tim Curry is forgiven for being the only watchable part of it.

I don't know what you are saying. Legend is the best film ever right after the Dungeons & Dragon movie - the good one that is.:smallwink::smalltongue:

[Wings of Peace]

There's an interview? I know there was a review circulating that looked pretty solid. Where was this?

Here (http://www.mesapress.com/a-e/2011/11/19/2541/) you go. Sorry for the slow reply.

[9mm]

I really need to update my sig someday. Still enormousnessly proud to see this done.

[dextercorvia]

Death Ward still grants immunity to binding for the entire scene, compared to Freedom of Movement which has a duration of Encounter. Jake mentioned that it was a bug when I brought it up before, was it intentionally left that way?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Between this and d20r... there's finally ways to balance out 3.5...

[Amphetryon]

Between this and d20r... there's finally ways to balance out 3.5...

TBH, Legend and d20r went about the idea of rebalancing 3.5 in fairly divergent ways. If memory serves (it's been a long time since I contributed to the project), Legend is also intended not to be backwards compatible with any extant 3.5 products; I don't recall if Fax Celestis had the same stated goal for d20r.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

TBH, Legend and d20r went about the idea of rebalancing 3.5 in fairly divergent ways. If memory serves (it's been a long time since I contributed to the project), Legend is also intended not to be backwards compatible with any extant 3.5 products; I don't recall if Fax Celestis had the same stated goal for d20r.

Well, they are rather mutually exclusive, but both are decent ways of rebalancing 3.5, albeit in different directions. However, options other than Pathfinder is never a bad thing.

I've done a little bit of work for Fax over at the d20r project. I'm hoping that, in his 'copious' spare time (you know, that moment or two between crisis situations in which he gets to breathe), he can look at some of the things I've sent him.

I have no idea if d20r will eventually be reverse compatible. That was the original intent, hence the name 'd20r' or 'd20 Rebirth', however, as Legend points out... it's not easy to make a functional game reverse compatible with D&D 3.5.

Heck, I've got my own set of houserules I'm working on, complete with new classes and PrC's, that I'm working on. No clue where, if anywhere, it will take me, but it's in a different direction than either of them. Mine will almost certainly be reverse compatible, although there's a *LOT* of things that got the ban-bat swung at them.

[Draz74]

TBH, Legend and d20r went about the idea of rebalancing 3.5 in fairly divergent ways.

That's for sure. I'm not even really sure Legend counts as fixing "3.5." It's really a very different system. d20r is a lot closer to D&D in terms of how detailed and similar-in-feeling to the original rules it stays.

[Flickerdart]

Legend is backwards-compatible with 3.5 only in the sense that it's very easy to port almost anything from 3.5, even characters that would normally be relegated to gestalt-only games.

[afroakuma]

That's for sure. I'm not even really sure Legend counts as fixing "3.5."

At this point, anything that has a d20 and doesn't have an incantatrix counts as "fixing" 3.5. :smalltongue: Even if only in the veterinary sense of "ensuring this will not happen ever again." :smallbiggrin:

Legend and d20r definitely have massively different approaches, and really divergent appeal. I haven't had a chance to play Legend yet, though I have participated in a d20r game, so I already know the strengths and faults of that system. That said, I'm curious to take a crack at Legend, see what it gives me in game terms.

Anyone else bought a copy yet? Or playtested it? I think it was playtested on these boards some months back...

[Flickerdart]

The really old playtesting really isn't representative of Legend's current state - back then you could stack precision dice, for instance, hide without ever being detected and all sorts of other hilarious things that have since been fixed.

[afroakuma]

Are you confusing Legend with some other game? Cause that sounds like some other game I know... :smallwink:

[Doc Roc]

RuleOfCool.com now includes a mechanism (http://www.ruleofcool.com/?page_id=95)by which you can improve christmas while making me suffer. I hear this is nearly the idealized form of the Carnot Charity Engine.

[MukkTB]

What are the core ideas of Legend? I'm interested in hearing a little more about the mechanics.

[Doc Roc]

Legend is a tabletop RPG developed by an independent team of gamers over the course of two years. Building on the foundations of the Open Gaming License, Legend has created a new and novel system dedicated to cinematic combat and a smoother gameplay experience. Legend takes familiar core mechanics and incorporates them into a new system emphasizing versatility, balance and fun.

Legend was designed, as our name suggests, with the “Rule of Cool” in mind. We have a strong core game where abilities matter, classes are designed for broad appeal and customization is key. When you take a feat, you’re investing in a significant and valuable ability. Our system allows you to “multiclass” vertically rather than horizontally, exchanging part of your class for part of another wholesale rather than having to choose between concept and playability.

Features

Eight Core Classes covering a wide variety of archetypes, with supplementary material ready to customize them further.
All-new Feats represent significant expansions of your character’s abilities – no more feat chain filler!
Rewritten spellcasting puts a check on “linear warriors, quadratic wizards” while still giving casters a breadth of options.
The Track system allows you to tailor your character to your concept, multiclassing without trading away power or utility.
Twelve months of free downloadable content.
As part of the Child’s Play charity initiative, all proceeds from the core product will be donated to Child’s Play – not just on launch day but forever!
Optional Legendary rules allow you to tailor the scope of individual encounters or even the entire game!


In our own words, no less, mukk! Andddd a class teaser.


http://www.ruleofcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/wvzq7.png

[afroakuma]

Hey look! It's the man himself!

Go make me a monster book, Man Himself. :smallfurious:

[Doc Roc]

Hey look! It's the man himself!

Go make me a monster book, Man Himself. :smallfurious:

Maybe after I catch up on my sleep. Which looks unlikely, I guess.

[Amphetryon]

Maybe after I catch up on my sleep. Which looks unlikely, I guess.

Monster book due out in 2038. Got it. :smallwink:

[Doc Roc]

Monster book due out in 2038. Got it. :smallwink:

Writing tracks, particularly tracks heavy on passives like one would use for most Mythical Monsters, is really pretty easy. I invite you to try your hand at it. It's not like i've got some magical qualifications!

[afroakuma]

It's not like i've got some magical qualifications!

Yes, you're not me. :smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

Here, let's try one right now for something silly, like a unicorn.

8 HP, good BAB, 6 skills, good Fort and Will saves, +2 to Charisma, bonus feats: By Will Sustained, Chatty Bugger, Journeyman Healer, CHA KOM, WIS KDM.
1st circle - Unicorn Body: You gain a horn attack (1d8 + KOM, +1d8 on a charge), and +3 to Nature checks.
2nd circle - Unicorn Arrow: You may make ranged attacks with your horn up to [Close] range.
3rd circle - Healing Power: Choose one of Death Ward, Poison (reversed version only), or Cure Serious Wounds (standard version only). You may use this spell once per [Encounter] as a spell-like ability.
4th circle - Natural Grace: When an attack would place a condition on you, reduce the duration of that condition by 1 round.
5th circle - Purge Intruder: Any opponent adjacent to you at the beginning of your turn takes damage equal to your KOM. You may also make a free bull rush against one such opponent at this time, pushing them back up to the maximum possible distance without using up any actions.
6th circle - Holy Light: You gain [Immunity] to level drain, ability drain and [Negative] effects.
7th circle - Nature Provides: Once per [Scene], if you are slain, you return to life after 1 round with full hit points, as your body is mended by the power of nature herself.

Took me about half an hour to do this, and all it needs is playtesting. I've found a bunch of errors in the book when making this, they are now fixed. Enjoy.

[Nohwl]

fortune's friend has a 4th circle ability that removes one condition a round, so you probably should make the remove 1 round from the duration ability at 4th circle stronger.

[Fax Celestis]

TBH, Legend and d20r went about the idea of rebalancing 3.5 in fairly divergent ways. If memory serves (it's been a long time since I contributed to the project), Legend is also intended not to be backwards compatible with any extant 3.5 products; I don't recall if Fax Celestis had the same stated goal for d20r.

Backwards compatibility is nice, but not a goal.

I think the primary difference (at least from where I'm standing) is Legend is concerned with making a game, regardless of its attachment to 3.5 (or even D&D as a whole), that is primarily simple, straightforward, and fair, while d20r is primarily concerned with making 3.5 itself into a more fair and balanced system to work with. In other words, the level of similarity to 3.5 between the two systems is where I see the main difference.

[Tyndmyr]

I dunno, I think for a charity that system's really going to rob you of donations. You'll get at least two people stealing it for every one who chips in.

Meh. People who really want to pirate already do. They are pretty much a lost cause from a publishers standpoint as they'll be pretty unhelpful regardless.

This just makes me curiously consider checking out a system that I might not buy otherwise(despite poking with it earlier). No set price means I can play with it, and then donate if I feel like it's awesome. No risk. I can't tell you how many roleplaying books I've considered buying, but didn't because I was uncertain if I'd ever get to use it/if it was worth the money.

[dextercorvia]

If you multiclass in a spellcasting track, how do you handle the spells/scene/circle with receiving the circles at different levels?

[Doc Roc]

Meh. People who really want to pirate already do. They are pretty much a lost cause from a publishers standpoint as they'll be pretty unhelpful regardless.

This just makes me curiously consider checking out a system that I might not buy otherwise(despite poking with it earlier). No set price means I can play with it, and then donate if I feel like it's awesome. No risk. I can't tell you how many roleplaying books I've considered buying, but didn't because I was uncertain if I'd ever get to use it/if it was worth the money.

I agree with this. Let me know what you think, please, and if you donate.

[afroakuma]

Hey Roc, you've got no druidery in this here thing!

*thinks of Natural Spell*

...maybe that's a good thing, mind...

[Flickerdart]

Shaman isn't good enough?

[afroakuma]

Shaman isn't good enough?

Don't you even name that class. For all that I enjoy in this book, Shaman feels like a cop-out what with having a blank track. If I want a blank track I'll go trade a track thank you very much.

Not to mention, no. I can see the healy/doomy cleric influences, but the serious nature bent of druid (and to a lesser extent ranger) just doesn't show the way I'd like to see a track for.

Myself, I'm gonna stick with Pally, Barbie and Sage. Maybe Tactician for the awesome pic.

[Nohwl]

shaman is useful for any combination of tracks that isn't already made as a character. you pick shaman, keep the multiclass one, multiclass away incantation, and then pick up guild initiation to remove spellcasting, and you have pretty much any combination of 3 tracks you want, and you get to choose what track fast, medium, and slow. there are a few tracks that are class locked, but anything other than those, you could build as a shaman. that open track makes the class real flexible. when i build a character, i always consider if i can do it better as a shaman.

[afroakuma]

May as well just be a Chameleon or Doppelganger class then, spare me the guild feat. :smalltongue: I'm sorry, I just don't view "Identity: ability to lack an identity" as all that shaman-y. Especially as what I think you could use it for and what they may have been going for is using Shaman to make specialty clerics.

[Nohwl]

i don't see one feat for almost any 3 tracks you want as a bad deal.

[afroakuma]

I just wish the class' identity was a touch more solidly defined. I'd prefer that if a class could do three tracks of your choice (even with a feat trade) that its identity be centered on that capacity. I want a shamanier shaman, in other words, and it galls me not only that it's got the one open one, but that it doesn't come with new options for itself. Compare Paladin which introduces five tracks, Rogue which introduces seven... (although I grant each number should be reduced by one given the exclusive track each one holds).

[Nohwl]

i can understand that, but what do you suggest the shaman has as another track? healing and spells are already taken care of. i'm not really sure what's left.

[Greenish]

i can understand that, but what do you suggest the shaman has as another track? healing and spells are already taken care of. i'm not really sure what's left.Eating the wrong sort of mushrooms, licking toads and communing with the spirits? :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

Eating the wrong sort of mushrooms, licking toads and communing with the spirits? :smalltongue:
"You gain a +4 bonus to trip" suddenly takes on a whole different meaning.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

"You gain a +4 bonus to trip" suddenly takes on a whole different meaning.

Like... whoa, dude... that Oak is totally Gnarley...

Actually, that wouldn't be so bad an archetype if you can find a way to balance it without either going Druid 2.0 or nerfing it into uselessness every time you go dungeon-crawling.

[Flickerdart]

You kidding? Dungeons have all sorts of weird glowy mold growing in them. It would give you way sweet visions, dude.

[Fax Celestis]

Dungeons of Dredmor did it okay. (http://www.dredmorwiki.com/wiki/Fungal_Arts)

[Randrew]

I only found out about Legend on Thursday. I got it the first chance I had on Friday (yes, I donated). I've been reading since then. I'm a very slow reader, so I'm still plugging away, but I love what I'm seeing. This is so much simpler than D&D and so incredibly easy to customize. Legend will almost certainly become my go-to game for fantasy, at the very least.

[Coidzor]

...point buy mount or magic item creation? Now that is an intriguing idea.

I'm going to have to see what I can do with that myself...

Now to find this review and interview and read them when I'm not exhausted and drain bread.

Then talk some friends into trying it out.

[Zeful]

Reading through it I like the KOM/KDM mechanics, and the way you run the tracks is pretty similar to how I wanted to do a core combat progression (certain ability scores represent certain fighting styles which provide certain abilities). Classes have real identity while multiclassing is so easy and fluid that I find it hard to imagine situations where you don't want to multiclass (I can imagine situations where you want the class tracks more, but never not wanting to multiclass at all).

The problems are that some of the content seems to be missing or Out of Character as it were. There are no armor or shields, no rules for alcohol despite being a quite lengthy feat tree concerning alcohol, no examples of a guild despite getting the first section in the economy chapter. Some of the feats imply a dark, very supernatural kind of setting (The Earth Cracks, The Sky Empties, The Sun Grows Dim (which I know is a reference to something, just not what)), while others are suited for a much more lighthearted campaign (Livers Need Not Apply and everything requiring it, The Bitter Dregs, Truly Bad People, To Pierce The Heavens). There's a lot of differential feat power.

Overall I like this, a lot. Much of what's there works as a wonderful framework for the kind of Swords and Sorcery style setting I like, but there is a lot of missing information I find necessary that looks to be coming out in separate releases.

[Flickerdart]

There are armours and shields - both mudane and magical - detailed in the Economy chapter, with the general rules for them on page 160. Fun examples include Ironmountain Plate and Vanguard (both give 1 HP per level, great when stacked with the other HP boosters for an amazingly durable tank), Winged Armor (flight, a natural attack and an overload ability) and the Damascus Shield (which gives you a bunch of immunities).

[afroakuma]

Nah, I know what he's talking about, and I rather miss the stacks of armor and shield options; although frankly, evaluating what they've done, I can sort of see the logic to the reduction. Of course I'll always miss the eighty kinds of polearm and such, so I'm hard to please in this regard. :smallbiggrin:

Zeful, I think the core setting they hint at is supposed to be that dark fantasy that you're finding, but there's not a lot in there so I can't be sure. As to the booze rules, I know Livers Need Not Apply basically lays them out for you; I think you must be looking for the normal people booze rules, a.k.a. "being drunk."

Legend, from what I've seen in the book, appears to have a really hands-off approach to things like that. It's got this sense of "have you been drinking? You're drunk and you know what that means" to it where it doesn't want/need to encode things in the rules because it's rightly the province of the GM. Unless you're battling on the Elemental Plane of Hops & Yeast, in which case I expect rules would be called for...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nah, I know what he's talking about, and I rather miss the stacks of armor and shield options; although frankly, evaluating what they've done, I can sort of see the logic to the reduction. Of course I'll always miss the eighty kinds of polearm and such, so I'm hard to please in this regard. :smallbiggrin:What, with the Glaive, glaive, gusarime-glaive?


Zeful, I think the core setting they hint at is supposed to be that dark fantasy that you're finding, but there's not a lot in there so I can't be sure. As to the booze rules, I know Livers Need Not Apply basically lays them out for you; I think you must be looking for the normal people booze rules, a.k.a. "being drunk."

Legend, from what I've seen in the book, appears to have a really hands-off approach to things like that. It's got this sense of "have you been drinking? You're drunk and you know what that means" to it where it doesn't want/need to encode things in the rules because it's rightly the province of the GM. Unless you're battling on the Elemental Plane of Hops & Yeast, in which case I expect rules would be called for...

And that's what I like best about Legends... they don't bog you down with minutia which rules-lawyers will inevitably attempt to use to gain a minor advantage at the cost of bogging the game down to a halt.

[Flickerdart]

Legend, singular.

Though I suppose we could call our second edition Legends. And then 3e would be Legendses.

[Zeful]

There are armours and shields - both mudane and magical - detailed in the Economy chapter, with the general rules for them on page 160. Fun examples include Ironmountain Plate and Vanguard (both give 1 HP per level, great when stacked with the other HP boosters for an amazingly durable tank), Winged Armor (flight, a natural attack and an overload ability) and the Damascus Shield (which gives you a bunch of immunities).

I understand why, but do not agree with that decision.


Zeful, I think the core setting they hint at is supposed to be that dark fantasy that you're finding, but there's not a lot in there so I can't be sure. As to the booze rules, I know Livers Need Not Apply basically lays them out for you; I think you must be looking for the normal people booze rules, a.k.a. "being drunk."

Legend, from what I've seen in the book, appears to have a really hands-off approach to things like that. It's got this sense of "have you been drinking? You're drunk and you know what that means" to it where it doesn't want/need to encode things in the rules because it's rightly the province of the GM. Unless you're battling on the Elemental Plane of Hops & Yeast, in which case I expect rules would be called for...

Eh, it's more a matter of the "Narrative Space" thing talked about in the earlier chapters. Just like you don't generally include disparate options for characters, you don't generally mention something and then not have rules for it. The first thing I thought reading Livers Need Not Apply was literally, "Oh, alcohol has penalties, I wonder if they're treating it like poison." So I started looking for poison rules, except there weren't any, this made me look harder at other areas, finding that quite a bit of stuff wasn't there. What's there is nice, but what's missing... makes me very confused. Heck when the word "gold" shows up at all during the economy chapter I started wondering if gold was even a reward because until it's appearance it didn't come up at all in any of the chapters, which in turn made me wonder why they even brought it up at all if it's so out of focus from play. Piled atop other similar little issues I can't help but feel that I'm missing thirty pages from the document despite that I can even load it at all shows that nope, 179 pages is it.

[Doc Roc]

I think there are some valid complaints there. We'll work on correcting them across the next two weeks for the upcoming patch.

[Mystic Muse]

How long does the system take to learn/explain to somebody else?

[Wings of Peace]

...point buy mount or magic item creation? Now that is an intriguing idea.

I'm going to have to see what I can do with that myself...

Now to find this review and interview and read them when I'm not exhausted and drain bread.

Then talk some friends into trying it out.

I got yer interview right here (http://www.mesapress.com/a-e/2011/11/19/2541/)!

[Doc Roc]

How long does the system take to learn/explain to somebody else?

Not too long. Somewhat less time than 3.x, since our multiclassing is a lot simpler, and we have far fewer stats, really.

Also, I fixed up the unicorn track. Took me about twenty minutes, but I'm a little iffy on granting battered. Might go with bleeding instead, but I'm torn. Thoughts?

Unicorn Track
8 HP/level, good BAB, Knowledge(Medicine) and 5 other skills
Good Fort and Will saves
+2 to Charisma
Bonus feats: Master Healer
CHA KOM, WIS KDM

1st circle - AwYiss: You gain a horn attack. This is a natural weapon that deals 1d8 + KOM damage and an additional 1d4 points of damage per character level on a charge. On a critical hit, your horn causes enormous physical trauma. Opponents brutalized this way start [Bleeding].

2nd circle - Alicornical Excellence: You may make ranged attacks with your horn up to [Close] range. Additionally, you gain a +2 to Medicine checks.

3rd circle - Bro Power: You may use up to two of the following spells once per [Encounter] as spell-like abilities: death ward, poison (reversed version only), and cure serious wounds (standard version only).

4th circle - Getting Graceful: When an attack would place a condition on you, reduce the duration of that condition by 1 round.

5th circle - Purge The Unclean: Any opponent adjacent to you at the beginning of your turn takes damage equal to your KOM. You may also make a free bull rush against one such opponent at this time. This does not have an associated action.

6th circle - Made of Win: You gain to level drain, ability drain and [Negative] effects, and you may use [I]heal once per [encounter] as a spell-like ability.

7th circle - The Dude Abides: Once per [Scene], if you are slain, you return to life after 1 round with full hit points, as your body is mended by the power of nature herself.

[DelvinAnaris]

Not too long. Somewhat less time than 3.x, since our multiclassing is a lot simpler, and we have far fewer stats, really.

Also, I fixed up the unicorn track. Took me about twenty minutes, but I'm a little iffy on granting battered.

Instant proofreading!

Page 3: AwYiss mentions the [battered] condition without proper capitalization. Also, I'm not sure, but 1st circle seems early to be giving the ability to inflict that condition. Perhaps change to [Bleeding] and let a later circle upgrade it to [Battered] if you really like that ability?

Page 3: Alicornal Excellence should be reworded into two sentences. (Turn the "and" into a period and make the "additionally" into the beginning of the new sentence.)

Page 3: In Bro Power, all three spells mentioned should be italicized and uncapitalized, as is our usual standard.

Page 3: In Bro Power, "spell like abilities" needs a hyphen ("spell-like").

Page 3: Getting Graceful should clarify whether there is a minimum to the duration such conditions can be reduced to, and if not, should clarify that an original duration of 1 means the condition is simply never applied.

Page 3: Purge the Unclean could use some clarification: I'm not sure whether it means "the maximum distance you normally could push them if you did not use any actions," or "the maximum distance a bull rush could normally push them, and you don't have to use any actions to do it." If the latter, I recommend pulling the last clause off into a separate sentence, "This use of bull rush has no action cost."

Page 3: In Made of Win, Heal should be italicized and uncapitalized, as is our usual standard.

Page 3 (general): I'm not too sure about the names of these track features. Should we really be letting Doc name things? :smallbiggrin:

That's all for now.

[Doc Roc]

Fixed errors as requested. :)

[Tyndmyr]

I agree with this. Let me know what you think, please, and if you donate.

Will do. Also, let me know if you end up with a physical book option(didn't see one yet). Games I end up playing, I almost invariably end up buying physical books for.

Ideally, I'd like to do a full review of the system, but that might take me a minute.

[Doc Roc]

Will do. Also, let me know if you end up with a physical book option(didn't see one yet). Games I end up playing, I almost invariably end up buying physical books for.

Ideally, I'd like to do a full review of the system, but that might take me a minute.

We are, but it'll be a while. We want to avoid printing a buggy game, roight?

[Totally Guy]

Saw a sweet review of the game on rpg.net, here (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15453.phtml). Is that by someone who posts around here?

[DelvinAnaris]

Saw a sweet review of the game on rpg.net, here (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15453.phtml). Is that by someone who posts around here?

It's by DragoonWraith, who, as I understand, was a regular here, but isn't currently.

[afroakuma]

Nnnnnnope. It's by someone who used to post around here a couple of years back. Or someone who stole his name.

[Flickerdart]

Doesn't Master Healer require the Incantation track?

[DelvinAnaris]

Doesn't Master Healer require the Incantation track?

Don't racial feats bypass prereqs?

[Doc Roc]

Doesn't Master Healer require the Incantation track?

Nope! That's mystic healer. Master healer lets you make potions, because our unicorns get their chiron on.

[Fax Celestis]

We are, but it'll be a while. We want to avoid printing a buggy game, roight?

On that note:

taking 10 and 20 (pg 10)
"In effect, it’s assumed that you’ve rolled the die 20 times until an actual 20 came up."
Has this changed from the "you are considered to roll a 1 then a 2 then a 3 etc etc up to 20" system from before, out of ease-of-use and clarity?

A Note on Math (pg 10)
"Whenever your result for any division is fractional, round down to the nearest whole number, even if the fraction was larger than 1."

1 should be 1/2. Also, is there a floor on this (ie: 1/2 lev, min 1)?

Saving Throws (pg 13)
Fort/Ref/Will all say "the higher of X and Y modifiers", when the ability descriptions on pg 11-12 state that you may only substitute ability modifiers in specific instances (Str for poison, Int for ref when it's predictable, etc). Which is correct?

pg 16
"Legend offer a broad range of abilities for solving or ending confrontations, and your answers to this question might point you to the right ones."

offer should be offers

Up to dwarf now, will continue after breakfast.

[Venser]

Can anyone explain me the purpose of the tracks that only have numbers in them?

[dextercorvia]

Can anyone explain me the purpose of the tracks that only have numbers in them?

Those are tracks where you have to make choices, so the numbers just indicate the circle of the ability you will gain.

[Venser]

By choices you mean those extra tracks(true mage, necromancer etc.)?

[dextercorvia]

By choices you mean those extra tracks(true mage, necromancer etc.)?

No. That is multiclassing.


The paladin also chooses any of the other paladin tracks, and makes it his or her Dedication. The Circles of that track then unlock at the listed levels on the chart, allowing the Paladin cumulative access to the powers associated with them.
The paladin then chooses a third paladin track, and makes it his or her Oath. The circles of that track unlock on the progression listed in the chart, allowing cumulative access to their associated abilities.

Refer to the Paladin -- they can't put in the names of each ability because the character can choose different combinations.

[Venser]

Ok, got it :D
And each time you level up you chose one track to level up or do you gain bonuses from all tracks?

[Flickerdart]

By choices you mean those extra tracks(true mage, necromancer etc.)?
Each class with a track progression that only has numbers has a description for the track, where it tells you what goes in those slots. Typically you choose from one of several tracks (such as the choices for Rogue, Paladin, Sage and Ranger) described in the class itself, but the Shaman can indeed choose his "numbers" track to be one of the tracks from Chapter 4.


Ok, got it :D
And each time you level up you chose one track to level up or do you gain bonuses from all tracks?
Each time you level up, consult your class's table to determine which track advances this level. With the exception of level 1, all levels advance only a single track.

[DelvinAnaris]

By choices you mean those extra tracks(true mage, necromancer etc.)?

No, choices like I Am Ten Ninjas, Assassin, or Swashbuckler for the Rogue's offensive track.

[imperialspectre]

Ten Ninjas? Looks like just three at the moment.

*ducks out*

[afroakuma]

Legend, singular.

Though I suppose we could call our second edition Legends. And then 3e would be Legendses.

No no, it goes Legend, Legends, Legend 3, Legend: Resurrection

...Legend vs. Pred20r, Legend vs. Pred20r 2...

[The Glyphstone]

Will Legend be available as a physical purchase product at any point, rather than pure PDF?

[Amphetryon]

Will Legend be available as a physical purchase product at any point, rather than pure PDF?

Tyndmyr asked that on the previous page. Doc Roc said yes, but that it may take a while.

[imperialspectre]

We're considering it, but right now the costs are way too high to do a dead-tree release as a charity project. It's simply not viable until we're moving the Monster Guide and/or Hallow setting for profit and making up what we spent on the core book.

[The Glyphstone]

Tyndmyr asked that on the previous page. Doc Roc said yes, but that it may take a while.

Hrmph. Pity, that means I can't immediately buy a copy for my local game club.

PDF it'll be then, for personal use and hopefully convince other people to try it out.

Rules question for the preview:


At the end of your
turn, each active Generator automaton adds points
equal to your Key Ability modifier to the Assemblage
pool, and one additional point for each other active
generator up to five.

If you have, say, 3 Generators active and a KAM of 5, is that +7 points generated each turn, or +21?

[imperialspectre]

It's +21 points. The whole point of the ability is to ensure that the automata reduce a relevant amount of incoming damage; if they only generated 7 points per turn, incoming damage from just one character would easily overwhelm them at that level.

[The Glyphstone]

Can they be destroyed?

[Nohwl]

i think they can be moved by picking them up and throwing them, but i don't think they have an ac or an hp.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Downloaded the PDF last night and have been paging through it. I like it so far but some of the wording seems like it could confuse people new to games like this. I know I had to think about multiclassing for a bit until I understood it. I think examples of how certain things work might be welcome to those who are confused.

[Nohwl]

i wound up filling out a character sheet a few days ago if you wanted to look at it. the character was made a while ago for the test of spite and was recently updated to newer rules, so i can't guarantee that it's completely correct.

if it helps at all, here it is (http://imageshack.us/f/337/legendcharactersheet.jpg/).

[afroakuma]

Hey check it out! New DLC!

And they hit $1000 in donations! Good work, Legendfolk! :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

Everyone who wants another monster track, you should definitely check out the new Earth Elemental. Nothing says "don't let it get to your head" better to PCs who think they're so cool just because they hit 9th level and picked up flying.

[Doc Roc]

We just got /.'ed!!!!

[afroakuma]

Maybe that explains how you blew past $1500. :smalleek:

[TroubleBrewing]

Holy crap, that's like $100 an hour... :smalleek:

[Mystic Muse]

You got what?:smallconfused:

[imperialspectre]

We ended up on the front page of slashdot.org and our donations increased fairly dramatically.

[Draz74]

The Manyspell Magus feat lists "Versatile Erudite" as a possible prerequisite. Versatile Erudite doesn't exist as far as I can tell.


Saving Throws (pg 13)
Fort/Ref/Will all say "the higher of X and Y modifiers", when the ability descriptions on pg 11-12 state that you may only substitute ability modifiers in specific instances (Str for poison, Int for ref when it's predictable, etc). Which is correct?
Actually, Fortitude save says "Strength OR Constitution" in both places. But Reflex and Will are inconsistent.

[Flickerdart]

Two more Elementals have joined the party.

[ClothedInVelvet]

I'm impressed that you put all this together, and I'm working through the material now to see whether or not it's something I would use.

I do have a couple questions:
1) Are the new elemental tracks racial tracks? In that case, do they need racial modifiers and such?

2) Additionally, where are the guilds? I'm feeling like I'm missing something when the Guilds section slips into Item Classifications. Will these be laid out later or can someone explain what I'm missing?

Thanks. I'll post more questions as my mind churns them out.

Edit: As these haven't been responded to, I'll keep adding on here.

3) The Paladin's "With your shield or on it" ability states that if your partner has it, you do not become immortal. Why not? Are you immortal until you lose line of effect? Otherwise, I cannot see why you're not immortal. Does the power simply become void? [Also, impressive Sacred Band of Thebes overtones.]

4) The Shaman's Imbue Spell ability states that it requires a swift action to imbue the spell, but also that the spell has a casting time of 1 swift action. Because I think we only get one swift action, something is going to have to give.

5) The vampire gains Dominate as a bonus feat at the 4th circle... but there is no Dominate feat.

This is a content suggestion, but it's always seemed to me that one should be able to trade a move action for 1 or more swift actions. With Legend's heavy reliance on swift actions, that might be something to consider.

[Draz74]

More things I've noticed:

One feat requires wielding a Hammer. No hammers are listed in the weapons that are given stats.

The Whip has the [disarm] property. The [disarm] property is not defined in the rules.

[VladtheLad]

My thoughts on Legend.
I really like some parts of it.
Scalable dc spells, 7 level of spells, the items and ofcourse tracks.
Also being a monk lover and actually having played a monk in 3rd only once (he sucked) I am very glad to see something that fits my vision of what a monk should be like in a fantasy setting.

There were however some things that brought me an instictive negative response and I have a feeling people will have mentioned them before.
First of all the fighter is absent and nothing took his place. Was it because fighter is a very generic concept?
Second there is no wizard and it seems that the tactician took its place. Tactician is a name I am really not fond of. Still I noticed there are other tracks that allow you to make a wizard like true mage(name?) and elementalist.
Taking out the fighter and the wizard (even only in name) is a very courageous decision, but I have a feeling that it will allienate a lot of people who try to pick up legend.
What was the reason of doing this?

Ah! I also disliked the absence of premade mosters and monster rules, but after thinking about it a little I can see its relatively easy to build monsters from scratch, which is really a great thing.

[Eldan]

Yes, I also never quite understood why, basically, the wizard was renamed Tactician.

If I hear the word tactician, I think of a planner of battles or maybe, maybe smaller scale fights. Someone who stands in a tent on a hill somewhere, with battle maps and lieutenants around him, giving orders. Not someone going to the front lines to sling spells in a small party of heroes.

[The Glyphstone]

Huh - I made the analogue between the Tactician and the 4E's Warlord, rather than the Wizard.

[ClothedInVelvet]

I really don't mind breaking up the Wizard. It's always seemed like WAY too many concepts stuck together in one. So breaking it into the Sage, Shaman, Tactician, True Mage, etc. doesn't seem to be a problem.

But I'm still trying to figure out my above questions. It seems like most of the creators are from around here, can't anyone help?

Edit: Actually, I'm sure they're busy with the rollout stuff. So I'll just keep the questions coming.

6) The Sage's 3rd circle ability Mystic Focus allows him/her to channel a spell-like ability through a blade. But the Sage's only spell-like ability is the Wall of Thorns arcane secret (I believe).

[Doc Roc]

I really don't mind breaking up the Wizard. It's always seemed like WAY too many concepts stuck together in one. So breaking it into the Sage, Shaman, Tactician, True Mage, etc. doesn't seem to be a problem.

But I'm still trying to figure out my above questions. It seems like most of the creators are from around here, can't anyone help?

Edit: Actually, I'm sure they're busy with the rollout stuff. So I'll just keep the questions coming.

6) The Sage's 3rd circle ability Mystic Focus allows him/her to channel a spell-like ability through a blade. But the Sage's only spell-like ability is the Wall of Thorns arcane secret (I believe).

All the arcane secrets are actually spell-likes. They're granted by EX abilities due to an oddity in the system and the way we offer them. We've been thinking about cleaning that up, and probably should. It's inobvious and bad design.

Elementals are not racial tracks. If you want to make elemental races, you can certainly do that, but by default being an elemental is a characteristic of another creature. We'll be introducing some tools for dealing with the notable exceptions.

If both characters who possess With Your Shield Or On It would be dead, both die. Until then, one of them is technically alive.

Imbue Spell is just poorly worded.

Dominate is a known issue that seems to have slipped through the cracks.

The inability to trade moves to swifts is intentional, and required due to a couple of class features.

Guilds are coming.


On Fighters
Careful what you wish for.

[ClothedInVelvet]

All the arcane secrets are actually spell-likes. They're granted by EX abilities due to an oddity in the system and the way we offer them. We've been thinking about cleaning that up, and probably should. It's inobvious and bad design.

Elementals are not racial tracks. If you want to make elemental races, you can certainly do that, but by default being an elemental is a characteristic of another creature. We'll be introducing some tools for dealing with the notable exceptions.

If both characters who possess With Your Shield Or On It would be dead, both die. Until then, one of them is technically alive.

Imbue Spell is just poorly worded.

Dominate is a known issue that seems to have slipped through the cracks.

The inability to trade moves to swifts is intentional, and required due to a couple of class features.

Guilds are coming.


On Fighters
Careful what you wish for.

Nailed it. I'm looking forward to guilds, Dominate, and further releases.

I now see the spell-like ability component of the Arcane Secrets. Not the clearest, but there nonetheless. My bad.

[dextercorvia]

Fixing the new page bug.

Also, reposting my question about multiclassing a spells track, and how that affects the spells/scene table if you receive the circle at different levels.

[dextercorvia]

p 149. Repelling Ward has duration 10 ounds.

Hold Person is the reversal of Remove Paralysis (a Shaman spell), yet its DC is based off of Intelligence.

Question on Invisibility/Silent: Is the target [Concealed] if you cast just the [Silent] version on it? Can you cast both versions and stack the bonuses to Stealth?

Do Hold Person or Hold Monster inherit the Humanoid/general Creature thing from 3.5, or is that just a naming convention?

Do Darkvision or See Invisibility work through Clairvoyence?

What is the Action for a True Mage to discharge a seal?

Does using a SLA break Invisibility?

Fire Elementals get perfect out of combat self healing at level 1. (I guess that isn't such a big deal, the Sage can heal the whole party from level 2).

[afroakuma]

I'm a bit disappointed that the Elemental tracks aren't racial tracks. Guess I can use them with Demon or Utter Brute, though.

Also, I have no idea how the Legendarians are gonna roll out all those donation incentives so fast. They've almost hit the $3000 mark.

[Cieyrin]

i can understand that, but what do you suggest the shaman has as another track? healing and spells are already taken care of. i'm not really sure what's left.

A thought occurred to me that that track could be related to contact and favors with the spirit world, whether that's getting information, travel or having a customizable minion at your beck and call, perhaps somewhat similar to the mount rules when those get released, as summoning of and transforming into creatures has been a rules headache for a long time now. Something weaker than a cohort, certainly, but still relevant.


I'm a bit disappointed that the Elemental tracks aren't racial tracks. Guess I can use them with Demon or Utter Brute, though.

Also, I have no idea how the Legendarians are gonna roll out all those donation incentives so fast. They've almost hit the $3000 mark.

We're past that mark, now. There's a post up on the site already fielding the roll out of incentives, plus a lot of what's been mentioned isn't just from scratch, so it's not like every incentive is being done from square one, as that'd be draining and likely to lead into writer burnout, something anybody who writes up new material will tend to deal with, time and again.

Also, so excited about this doing so well! Like 9mm, I'll eventually get around to changing my sig but I enjoy seeing such excitement for a piece of work that I contributed to. :3

[stainboy]

I has rules questions.

-Can Chill Touch / Vampiric Touch be delivered through a weapon attack?
-What is a bardiche, mechanics-wise? Halberd? Generic Main weapon?
-Do the gauntlets on Winged Armor have the normal +3 bonus for being relic weapons?
-About how many encounters to a [Quest]?

[Greenish]

-About how many encounters to a [Quest]?As many as it takes. :smallamused:

[imperialspectre]

My thoughts on Legend.
I really like some parts of it.
Scalable dc spells, 7 level of spells, the items and ofcourse tracks.
Also being a monk lover and actually having played a monk in 3rd only once (he sucked) I am very glad to see something that fits my vision of what a monk should be like in a fantasy setting.

There were however some things that brought me an instictive negative response and I have a feeling people will have mentioned them before.
First of all the fighter is absent and nothing took his place. Was it because fighter is a very generic concept?
Second there is no wizard and it seems that the tactician took its place. Tactician is a name I am really not fond of. Still I noticed there are other tracks that allow you to make a wizard like true mage(name?) and elementalist.
Taking out the fighter and the wizard (even only in name) is a very courageous decision, but I have a feeling that it will allienate a lot of people who try to pick up legend.
What was the reason of doing this?

Ah! I also disliked the absence of premade mosters and monster rules, but after thinking about it a little I can see its relatively easy to build monsters from scratch, which is really a great thing.


I has rules questions.

-Can Chill Touch / Vampiric Touch be delivered through a weapon attack?
-What is a bardiche, mechanics-wise? Halberd? Generic Main weapon?
-Do the gauntlets on Winged Armor have the normal +3 bonus for being relic weapons?
-About how many encounters to a [Quest]?

Any ability that's delivered via a melee attack can be done either with an unarmed melee attack or a weapon, unless otherwise stated.

You can use the Infighter's Bardiche as a mundane Main weapon if you want. Most mages prefer to use it defensively and then just zap people with it on their turn.

The gauntlets on Winged Armor are not enhanced; gauntlets are considered a mundane property of armor. You could make Relic Gauntlets as a weapon, of course; rules for making your own weapons and armor are coming soon as DLC since the donations are about to trigger that DLC incentive.

A Quest is largely what you make of it. It's envisioned as a campaign arc, so I would say "a lot" of encounters in general. In contrast to what we get from MMOs and such these days, even a low-level Quest would not be "be a dear and take these apples over to Farmer Joe's, would you?" A low-level Quest is more like "This message must get to the king before Tuesday. You'll have to make it through 100 miles of rough terrain crawling with goblins. Get moving."

[Nohwl]

2 errors found by a friend of mine
p. 21: "In such a situation, you might want players to be able to choose what parts of a dungeon the work through".... should be "In such a situation, you might want players to be able to choose which parts of a dungeon they work through" ("what" could be kept, mostly pointing out the "the"/"they" typo)

next paragraph, "encounters outside this range are generally not appropriate challenges" - "encounters" should be capitalized. (it's the start of a sentence)

[afroakuma]

So... $4000 raised. And I volunteered my services at 8k.

**rolls up sleeves**

[Nohwl]

hey, have any tropers seen this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LegendGameSystem) yet?

[Doc Roc]

4.5k downloads!

[dextercorvia]

4.5k downloads!

I'm not seeing them. Under Donation Incentives?

[Doc Roc]

I'm not seeing them. Under Donation Incentives?

We're behind on our donation incentives listing, I'm afraid. Catching up today, I hope. Clear your cache to see the up-to-date donation total.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not seeing them. Under Donation Incentives?
We don't list downloads on the site, but you can see the donation total ($4526.85 right now) as well as the number of contributors (386 right now).

[dextercorvia]

My mistake. I thought Doc meant that the Incentives were available to download through the $4500 mark.

FWIW, I think that this thing you are doing is both a good thing, and good marketing. It lives up to (beyond) the promises of the OGL.

[Kurald Galain]

Congrats on getting this released!

I don't consider myself the target audience here, but it's clear a lot of good work has gone into this.

[Psyren]

Congrats on getting this released!

I don't consider myself the target audience here, but it's clear a lot of good work has gone into this.

This is pretty much my take. Kudos and brava on your success! I think d20r will be more up my alley based on my brief skim, but I'll read through this in detail when I have time.

[Doug Lampert]

If you multiclass in a spellcasting track, how do you handle the spells/scene/circle with receiving the circles at different levels?

I asked that specific question at least twice during discussions of earlier versions of the rules. It has never been answered at all that I've seen.

Abilities often come with character level, so I'd GUESS that the number of spells is appropriate to your level regardless of which track the casting occupies (fast, medium, or slow) but that if casting is medium or slow that you delay access to new circles of spells.

But that's a guess. And it leaves COMPLETELY OPEN the question of whether you get the higher level slots or not, which is significant if you can fill a higher level slot with a lower level spell as is the case in 3.x.

DougL

[DelvinAnaris]

I believe the intent is that the spells/scene progression is the same no matter what speed your spellcasting track is.

That means that if your spellcasting track is slower than the default, you will have spells available to cast per scene that you cannot cast because you do not yet know how to cast that circle.

[imperialspectre]

Which you can then fill with lower-level spells instead.

[DelvinAnaris]

Which you can then fill with lower-level spells instead.

Not before you get 1st Circle :smallbiggrin:

[Doc Roc]

If you need a clean alternative, you can say that characters learn three spells per circle gained. It's not as good or as elegant as del's, but it does take care of the problem.

[Doug Lampert]

Which you can then fill with lower-level spells instead.

I don't recall any mention in the rules of down-filling slots. But then I'm used to the idea from 3.x and mostly what I noticed were things that are different.

But there are plenty of abilities that use spell slots to do things other than cast spells.

[Doug Lampert]

If you need a clean alternative, you can say that characters learn three spells per circle gained. It's not as good or as elegant as del's, but it does take care of the problem.

Thing is, I asked this at least twice in beta. WHY ISN'T THERE A RULE?!?!

Seriously. The obvious rule is that the slots come from levels and the circle access comes from the track, but that leads to all kinds of problems. I can use slots for stuff other than casting (several feats burn slots for various things). And also, can I down-cast at all?

A one sentance rule next to the spell-casting table that if spell-casting comes from a different track than the fast one then the spell-slots aren't gained till the circle is gained fixes most of the problems. I can make such a rule, but isn't that what I donated to charity for you to do for me?

[Doc Roc]

Thing is, I asked this at least twice in beta. WHY ISN'T THERE A RULE?!?!

Seriously. The obvious rule is that the slots come from levels and the circle access comes from the track, but that leads to all kinds of problems. I can use slots for stuff other than casting (several feats burn slots for various things). And also, can I down-cast at all?

A one sentance rule next to the spell-casting table that if spell-casting comes from a different track than the fast one then the spell-slots aren't gained till the circle is gained fixes most of the problems. I can make such a rule, but isn't that what I donated to charity for you to do for me?

We're still in beta, by the way. Don't worry, next revision will have a rule.
::placid smile::

[dextercorvia]

There is no limit to the circle of spells you can learn listed in the spellcasting description of a class. So if Spells/Scene is tied only to character level, then it doesn't seem to matter what the speed of the track is if you multiclass with a spellcasting track. You can learn one spell of the highest circle you have slots for and cast it without ever worrying about whether you have officially received that circle.

[afroakuma]

Thing is, I asked this at least twice in beta. WHY ISN'T THERE A RULE?!?!

Yeah, this definitely needs support. It's wacky like that.

[The Glyphstone]

If it hasn't been asked...say I donate and buy a copy of the PDF now. When it later gets patched/updated (to include, for example, this spell slots issue people are talking about), will I have to make another donation to get the new errata-ed rules?

[Doc Roc]

If it hasn't been asked...say I donate and buy a copy of the PDF now. When it later gets patched/updated (to include, for example, this spell slots issue people are talking about), will I have to make another donation to get the new errata-ed rules?

Nope. In fact, we've already rolled out four minor updates silently. You don't even need to donate to get the PDF the first time.

[dextercorvia]

Nearly $5000!

[Cieyrin]

Nope. In fact, we've already rolled out four minor updates silently. You don't even need to donate to get the PDF the first time.

Indeed. You could pay nothing and get it but that's frowned on, since you're denying donations to sick kids so you can enjoy a game. We can't stop you but perhaps karma will. :smallamused:

[dextercorvia]

Indeed. You could pay nothing and get it but that's frowned on, since you're denying donations to sick kids so you can enjoy a game. We can't stop you but perhaps karma will. :smallamused:

It does allow one to download it and see if you would enjoy it before deciding whether to donate on the game's behalf.

[Kerrin]

I have read through the first few chapters and am enjoying learning about Legend.

I did notice a some fiddly consistency things. Here are notes on a few:

In some places creating a character is referred to as character "creation" or "creating" a character, but in other places it is referred to as character "generation" or "generating" a character.

Each chapter opens with the chapter title and the chapter's number in roman numerals, but in body text throughout the book chapters are referred to as simply "Chapter 5" using arabic numerals and not naming the chapter.

Somewhat related to that is the font used in the body text throughout the book causes references to "Chapter 11" (arabic numerals) to look like "Chapter II" (roman numerals).

For each chapter, putting a line such as "Chapter III: Races and Classes" in each page's header or footer or outer edge gutter with the chapter number and title would make it much easier when flipping through the book to find a chapter.

[Nohwl]

vampire gains the dominate feat at 4th circle. it doesn't appear to be defined.

[ClothedInVelvet]

vampire gains the dominate feat at 4th circle. it doesn't appear to be defined.

I got that earlier. They're aware it's missing.

I think my favorite part of this system is the tracks vs. wholesale classes. So if I want to multiclass, I don't lose the most powerful abilities from my original class. It's like gestalt, but not quite so powerful.

That said, I'm claiming a build.
Lich Sage (KOM: Wis, KDM: Con) Wis is primary stat
Tracks:
Lich
Sage's Wrath
Arcane Secrets
Shaman's Incantation (full buy-in)
Channel Incantation through my Sage's energy blade. Tack on the lich's chill touch and I'm doing ~46 damage with my standard/swift action. Use the move action to throw the opponent away.

Edit: At level 7.

[imperialspectre]

That's pretty solid. Note that a character with +2 to Con and 8 hp/level is rolling with 72 max HP, so it's scary damage but they'll have a chance to counter. If you're reliably one-rounding even-level characters, let me know and I'll start worrying about bugfixes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's pretty solid. Note that a character with +2 to Con and 8 hp/level is rolling with 72 max HP, so it's scary damage but they'll have a chance to counter. If you're reliably one-rounding even-level characters, let me know and I'll start worrying about bugfixes.

Also, it's a specialist build... a one-trick pony. If he can't close to melee, he can't do it. And closing to melee isn't quite as easy in Legend as it is in 3.5, particularly not with the paths he has chosen.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Also, it's a specialist build... a one-trick pony. If he can't close to melee, he can't do it. And closing to melee isn't quite as easy in Legend as it is in 3.5, particularly not with the paths he has chosen.

Well, I can still use arcane secrets and incantation, but you're right. This is a melee build. But I would say it'll take on a barbarian or paladin. I've got d10 hit dice, full BAB, and 16 con at start. In another couple levels, I'll also have flight and be able to build a wall of thorns that I can throw people through.

[imperialspectre]

You don't seem to have any feats selected other than the required racial. I would suggest increasing your mobility with Shadow Blink and Breakneck Pace.

[ClothedInVelvet]

You don't seem to have any feats selected other than the required racial. I would suggest increasing your mobility with Shadow Blink and Breakneck Pace.

Very good idea, but I might save my feats until more info has come out.

Does anyone know what's going on with the site? The counter is stuck at $5,000 (I checked) and there hasn't been a post in many hours.

[Doc Roc]

Very good idea, but I might save my feats until more info has come out.

Does anyone know what's going on with the site? The counter is stuck at $5,000 (I checked) and there hasn't been a post in many hours.

I just got up, myself. Clear your cache manually and refresh the page. The chip-in "widget" is an unsupported piece of flash garbage, but we can't get IPN support at the moment so we're stuck with it unless I hack up a trick like the Desert Bus For Hope solution, which I simply don't have time to do.

I can tell you we've crossed 8.3k views of the pdf, of which 5.1k were downloads. We've moved 55 gigs worth of book, and raised 5056$ or so for charity. We do need help though, because views are starting to ebb. BUT we have an absurdly high conversion rate, on the order of 35-40%. Which is insane. Just absolutely insane.

Did those numbers help?

Flickerdart, our typesetter, is busy until friday or so, which puts the donation incentives on hold. We're basically ready, except for the point buy systems (which need polish and expansion) and the adventures, which are a longer term commitment.

[Greenish]

How come Legend's Endure Elements stops working below -10°C? It's less useful than a pair of long johns! :smallamused:

[Doc Roc]

How come Legend's Endure Elements stops working below -10°C? It's less useful than a pair of long johns! :smallamused:

Cause we can't count. Will fix soon.

[Greenish]

Ah, that's what I thought (my other theory was that all of you live near the equator and consider -10°C to be near enough to absolute zero to make no difference). :smalltongue:

Just downloaded (and will donate once I figure where to get a card that'll allow me), and I'm thinking of putting a PbP game together. Is there any site that's hosting Legend character sheets?

[Doc Roc]

Ah, that's what I thought (my other theory was that all of you live near the equator and consider -10°C to be near enough to absolute zero to make no difference). :smalltongue:

Just downloaded (and will donate once I figure where to get a card that'll allow me), and I'm thinking of putting a PbP game together. Is there any site that's hosting Legend character sheets?

We have prototype sheets up, but I don't think anyone's rolled one for mythweavers yet. If anyone wants to, I'll help as I can.

[Greenish]

We have prototype sheets up, but I don't think anyone's rolled one for mythweavers yet. If anyone wants to, I'll help as I can.I've no idea how, but it'd be great to have those sheets.

Is it intended that undead and constructs have to eat, breathe and sleep (unless they take By Will Sustained)?


[Edit]: Does Ghostwise Sight work in magical darkness?

[Doc Roc]

A:
Yes, at the moment.
And
Yes.

[Chess435]

Is anyone gonna get a PbP going anytime soon? :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Cheers.

The feat Musketeer says "Add your Dexerity bonus to damage an additional time…" Is this a vestige of the time before KOM/KDM, or an intended perk for Dex-based shootists?


[Edit]:
Is anyone gonna get a PbP going anytime soon? :smalltongue:Your wish is my command. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12307227#post12307227)

[EditEdit]: Repelling Ward, 3rd circle shaman spell, has it's save DCs based on Int.

[afroakuma]

Is anyone gonna get a PbP going anytime soon? :smalltongue:

No. Possibly never again.

I am recruiting for a live game on MapTool. So if people are interested...

[Greenish]

No. Possibly never again.Lies and heresy. :smalltongue:


I am recruiting for a live game on MapTool. So if people are interested...How does that work?

[Draz74]

I am recruiting for a live game on MapTool. So if people are interested...

Ooooh, have you put together a (rudimentary) Macro Framework for Legend? :smallwink:


How does that work?
Easiest answer is, "Check out the video tutorials (http://www.rptoolstutorials.net/)."

[Chess435]

Yeah, shortly after posting my last message, I found the game over on the Legend chat. So if you need me, I'll probably be over there, lol.

[afroakuma]

How does that work?

Well, you note all the times you're available on my handy dandy schedule (http://www.doodle.com/4qs7dh8nhvpaxmcn#table). Then, when we can get a group together, we play using MapTool, a free virtual tabletop. It's really quite good.

[JadePhoenix]

You know, Rule of Cool is an awful name. And an ability called 'made of win'? Hard to take this seriously.
The art looks very good.

[DelvinAnaris]

You know, Rule of Cool is an awful name. And an ability called 'made of win'? Hard to take this seriously.
The art looks very good.

Are you really expecting to be able to take My Little Legend seriously?

[Morty]

Interesting. Not sure if it's up my alley, but I might check it out all the same.

[Greenish]

Easiest answer is, "Check out the video tutorials (http://www.rptoolstutorials.net/)."Ooooh. Now if only they would load…


Well, you note all the times you're available on my handy dandy schedule (http://www.doodle.com/4qs7dh8nhvpaxmcn#table). Then, when we can get a group together, we play using MapTool, a free virtual tabletop. It's really quite good.I'm supposed to know when I have free time a week from now? Who plans that far ahead. :smalltongue:

Anyhow, does that doodad know my time zone, or do I have to try to figure out what time it uses?

[Morty]

It seems it recognizes your timezone and allows you to select one as well... it recognized mine as Europe/Warsaw. It also adjusts the time when you change your timezone.

[PEACH]

Looking at Prismatic Spray, there's no duration on the effect on a 4, and the battered condition applies whether or not you save. I'm not sure if those are intended, but I figured I'd point them out. I also think it should state that you reroll any additional 8s if you start out with one, not ignore them; ignoring them can lead to the (incredibly rare) case where you actually get no effect by rolling three 8s, and the (less rare) case where you roll an 8 and then only get one hit off anyway.

[Doug Lampert]

AFAICT there is no description of how reversed effect spells work at all.

I assume that when you learn a spell you also learn the reversed version and can cast either, but that's all guess work.

Similarly, I didn't notice any mention of preparing spells. I may have just missed it, I skimmed large parts of the rules, but it looks to me like a non-D&Der coming to this cold would probably assume all spells are spontaneously decided on at casting, while D&Ders are likely to assume memorized/prepared. It would be best to clarify this.

[PEACH]

AFAICT there is no description of how reversed effect spells work at all.

I assume that when you learn a spell you also learn the reversed version and can cast either, but that's all guess work.

Similarly, I didn't notice any mention of preparing spells. I may have just missed it, I skimmed large parts of the rules, but it looks to me like a non-D&Der coming to this cold would probably assume all spells are spontaneously decided on at casting, while D&Ders are likely to assume memorized/prepared. It would be best to clarify this.

Spells are all spontaneous, from what I can see. Reversed spells are learned with the regular spell and both can be cast (I'm pretty sure of this), but it could be clearer.

[Doc Roc]

Not could. Should be clearer. We will fix it.


You know, Rule of Cool is an awful name. And an ability called 'made of win'? Hard to take this seriously.
The art looks very good.

Unfortunately, it's far far far too late to change the name. We've been using it for the better part of a year-and-a-half now. As for Made Of Win, that's for a supplementary track for a supplementary mod with a much lighter tone.

If you hate the name for something, propose an alternative. Good chance we'll use it if you make a compelling case.

[afroakuma]

TO DO: Formalize rules for having more than one racial track. I'm pretty sure I know how it's done but the book should say.

[mint]

Had a lot of fun playing the beta with my group. Can't wait to read the Hallow brief. We are donating out popcorn monies.

[Sception]

Looks interesting. My tastes in d20 are very limited, though, so before I drop donations and download this thing, does it have much or anything to cover necromantic characters? If not, how about re-fluffable summoning or pet abilities? I see there's an undead racial tree thing, that's cool, but what about creating/controlling undead minions, even if just a few?

[DelvinAnaris]

Looks interesting. My tastes in d20 are very limited, though, so before I drop donations and download this thing, does it have much or anything to cover necromantic characters? If not, how about re-fluffable summoning or pet abilities? I see there's an undead racial tree thing, that's cool, but what about creating/controlling undead minions, even if just a few?

Page 72, optional track that anyone can multiclass into:

Necromancer

You zap people with dark energies and listen to depressing music. Life sucks, then you get reanimated as a zombie and forget it ever happened.

Primarily focuses on negative energy stuff.

If you're more interested in creating undead, you might prefer the Undead racial track on page 81, which lets you choose between being a Ghoul, a Lich, a Mummy, a Vampire, or a Skeletal Champion. All of these gain the ability to convert dead creatures to undead of the same type as you at somewhere around 7th level.

[Draz74]

Looks interesting. My tastes in d20 are very limited, though, so before I drop donations and download this thing, does it have much or anything to cover necromantic characters? If not, how about re-fluffable summoning or pet abilities? I see there's an undead racial tree thing, that's cool, but what about creating/controlling undead minions, even if just a few?

I'll never understand you people who only enjoy fantasy for its necromantic themes ...

But anyway, as DelvinAnaris said, there is a strong Necromancer track that can be added to any character (including a character with the racial Undead track). But Legend generally stays away from summoning/minions stuff, since those tend to slow the game down drastically. (You can certainly re-fluff the Summon Mote feat as having a small undead cohort, but that's ... probably not what you're after.)

[Sception]

I see. Sounds like a couple interesting options, it's a shame they haven't tackled pets yet. That's something I'd like to see them do because it tends to slow down the game so much in d20. Seems like something begging for a streamlining approach.

As for only enjoying fantasy for necromancy, well... I have other character interests. But I have a hard time imagining that any physical warrior character type would be as fun to play as a warblade or 4e fighter, or any magical type as enjoyable as a beguiler or 4e mage. On the other hand, necromancy in 3e gets tedious and can bog down the game (partly why I was interested to hear if this more streamlined version of the system, might include some sort of 'pet track' to make such concepts work more smoothly), while 4e doesn't even pretend to cover necromancy at all (the mage school from heroes of shadow is at best a joke in poor taste), and refluffing shaman (the best designed of the 4e pet classes) is a rather imperfect fit. Still, at least the shaman, while complicated for 4e, is less disruptive then pets in 3e were....

Anyway, the point is I'd be interested in a system that offers something more functional on that front. Other archetypes I'm already pretty content on with other existing systems.

[Draz74]

The Tactician class description says they get 9 trained Skills (including the knowledges), but the table on page 15 says only 8.

[PEACH]

While there's certainly room to streamline companions, even at the bare minimum a companion needs to roll its own saves, become its own target, have its own threatened area, and take its own actions, all of which adds a lot even if it has no special abilities. They can certainly be fun, but letting every character summon another half a character would slow the game down a ton even with the bare minimum of extra abilities.

[DelvinAnaris]

I see. Sounds like a couple interesting options, it's a shame they haven't tackled pets yet. That's something I'd like to see them do because it tends to slow down the game so much in d20. Seems like something begging for a streamlining approach.

It might yet happen, just in later DLC.

[Fax Celestis]

before I drop donations and download this thing

You can download the PDF without a donation. I have done so, and I will be making a donation based on how much I like the entire product next time I get paid. I would suggest you--and other skeptics--to do the same: you may be pleasantly surprised, and feel inclined to give a larger donation.

[Sception]

I'm not sure why a companion necessarily needs their own actions. I've found the 4e style of 'I spend my action to direct my pet to do X' works pretty well, from a gamist perspective.

That said, regardless it will be another target, another movement concern, etc. It's a hassle, but also a pretty iconic concept, one I'd like to see made more tabletop friendly one day.

[Cieyrin]

The Mechanist Savant has minions in a limited fashion but yeah, the best solutions in Legend for pets seems to be either the Cohort rules or the upcoming Mount rules, which should handle minions somewhat well.

[Starbuck_II]

The Tactician class description says they get 9 trained Skills (including the knowledges), but the table on page 15 says only 8.

It also says 6 knowledges and 3 others on page 9. I trust the more through one of 6+3.

Noticed an Error: The Feat Musketeer says Preq: use a Long gun, but the benefit text says Rifle. I'm assuming they meant Rifle (there is no long gun)
Sadly nothing boosts revolvers.

[Flickerdart]

A whole pile of bonus content is up - Water Elemental, Runesong Scholar, ten feats and an introduction to Hallow.

[Greenish]

The great cities of Far Aday and Tu'Ring. :smallamused:

[Starbuck_II]

Optimistic Viscera? More Con and saves, yes please.
Even better when Con is your defense stat so your AC goes up too.

Nice update so far.
The runesong Scholar is a truenamer, but his 1st circle ability seems to help you learn names and it can do shaken (but only at extreme range). Not useful in most battles.
Not till 2nd circle do you start getting a useful one. From then on, they pretty great.

Too bad no Synergy with the Truenaming feat.

[Flickerdart]

Not sure when it'll reflect on the server (the could-based thing is wacky like that) but the new Legend patch fixes the issues mentioned in this thread so far.

[Greenish]

The runesong Scholar is a truenamer, but his 1st circle ability seems to help you learn names and it can do shaken (but only at extreme range).I think it means "within [Extreme] range", that is to say, closer than 1000 ft + 100ft./level. Or, basically, anytime you're actually fighting the target.

An Assassin Rogue, for example, might find Swift Action At Will no save method for making the target Shaken rather useful.

[dextercorvia]

The great cities of Far Aday and Tu'Ring. :smallamused:

If you are visiting a mine, be sure you know it's Not Fair Etts Mine.

[Rouge Iz Tarp!]

Hey, doing the job I was supposed to do over a week late!
Here are some errors.

True Mage’s Trickery circle references “Disguise Self.” That spell doesn't appear in this document.

The feat Skinjob gives a bonus to Larceny Checks to disguise yourself. This use for Larceny in not described anywhere else in the book.

Also, I'm ecstatic the "Fair Ett's Mine" gag was picked up.

[gkathellar]

I love it, and Hallow looks great from the brief you've put out.

I notice that Multiclass Flexibility only effects the DCs of spells and abilities from a multiclass track, not other effects dependent on ability modifier (such as the Fast Healing from Battle's Tempering or Path of the Ancestors, or the damage bonuses from Smiting). Is this by design, or an oversight? It makes some tracks a lot more effective to multiclass than others, or only effective with particular other classes.

EDIT: Hey, I just noticed the vague Name of the Wind reference in Runesong Scholar. Cool.

[Greenish]

What happens when your KOM and KDM would be the same ability? Do you get to pick another ability for one of them? Or are you forbidden from even creating such a situation?

[Claudius Maximus]

You guys should really look into what happens when a racial track requires abilities from its racial feat to function. It's possible to get such a track via Guild Initiation and Shaman without nabbing the feat. What about those track abilities?

I think you're going to have to change something here, whether you roll the feat abilities into the tracks themselves, demand that someone take or trade into the relevant feat to use the track, or forbid entering such tracks without the relevant racial chassis and feat. Or even something else, I don't know. But something.

[dextercorvia]

What happens when your KOM and KDM would be the same ability? Do you get to pick another ability for one of them? Or are you forbidden from even creating such a situation?

I looked into it a little, and it looks like you would be hard pressed to make it happen. There are only a couple of classes that allow you to pick, and they seem to be working to prevent it.

[Greenish]

I looked into it a little, and it looks like you would be hard pressed to make it happen.Elven Wardance + Barbarian + Construct was the combo that triggered the question.

How does multiclass rogue determine her KOM/KDM? Does grabbing one of rogue's tracks change your KOM/KDM?

[dextercorvia]

Elven Wardance + Barbarian + Construct was the combo that triggered the question.

Elven Wardance has the clause that you don't switch your KOM to dex if it is already your KDM. Are you using the guild initiation to change your race to Sentient Construct? Does that make you ineligible for Elven Racial Feats?

[DelvinAnaris]

What happens when your KOM and KDM would be the same ability? Do you get to pick another ability for one of them? Or are you forbidden from even creating such a situation?

Page 11, under Key Ability Modifiers:


The KOM and KDM can never be the same ability modifier.

[Greenish]

Elven Wardance has the clause that you don't switch your KOM to dex if it is already your KDM.Ah, so there is. I somehow just read it as "…unless your KOM is already…" Makes sense.


Are you using the guild initiation to change your race to Sentient Construct? Does that make you ineligible for Elven Racial Feats?Where does it say you have to be an elf to take Elven Wardance?


[Edit]:
Page 11, under Key Ability Modifiers:I know that, that's why I asked.

[dextercorvia]

Where does it say you have to be an elf to take Elven Wardance?

If it does, I can't find it. Every other Racial feat requires a type or track to qualify. Maybe it is a bug, maybe a feature -- I can't tell.

[Draz74]

The rules for the "Shaman's Path" class says that they can't pick Sage tracks. I suspect this is a relic of an earlier version of Legend, before the Sage had its abilities categorized into tracks like all the other classes.

[Greenish]

Optimization question: if one were to combo Discipline of the Serpent/Iron Magi/Vigilante, which would be a better base, ranger or monk?

[Seerow]

Okay, I just got around to starting to read through this, and skipped ahead to the Combat Rules section after reaching classes because it kept referencing these rules. So if my question's answered somewhere else in the text, sorry.

Under bull rush it says:


If you have not used your move action, you may
continue to push your opponent up to half of your
normal move distance, in addition to the initial 5 ft.
A creature being pushed does not provoke attacks of
opportunity. You provoke attacks of opportunity when
you move into your opponent’s square to initiate a bull
rush, but do not provoke attacks of opportunity for
distance moved while pushing your opponent

So while you provoke an AoO from the opponent for initiating the bull rush, neither you nor the target provoke any AoOs from anyone while you're pushing him. A strict reading of this implies I can bull rush my ally through a threatened area, so we can get past the threat (or close to a large creature) without invoking AoOs. I doubt this is intended, but is there something I'm missing that makes it not work this way?

[Flickerdart]

So while you provoke an AoO from the opponent for initiating the bull rush, neither you nor the target provoke any AoOs from anyone while you're pushing him. A strict reading of this implies I can bull rush my ally through a threatened area, so we can get past the threat (or close to a large creature) without invoking AoOs. I doubt this is intended, but is there something I'm missing that makes it not work this way?
Considering that the distance you can bull rush someone is very limited, you'd be hard-pressed to make this accomplish much of anything, especially compared to the blazing fast movement speeds that you can get without trying too much.

[Seerow]

Considering that the distance you can bull rush someone is very limited, you'd be hard-pressed to make this accomplish much of anything, especially compared to the blazing fast movement speeds that you can get without trying too much.

You can bullrush up to half your movement speed +5ft, while it's not as good as your base movement, that can still be enough to get you across a battlefield.



Edit: Just got to Ranger, really digging the Iron Magi combo mechanic. Probably the most interesting thing I've seen so far aside from the core multiclassing/track mechanic itself.

That said, I'm now what, about halfway through the classes? And so far I've seen only one class that gets flight/teleport, despite the book explicitly saying you're expected to have that around 5th level. Should I assume that these abilities are extremely common/easy to get via magic items?

[Greenish]

That said, I'm now what, about halfway through the classes? And so far I've seen only one class that gets flight/teleport, despite the book explicitly saying you're expected to have that around 5th level. Should I assume that these abilities are extremely common/easy to get via magic items?Pretty much. It's also available as a feat, spell, and a circle in quite a few racial tracks. Not to mention mounts.

[Circle of Life]

Oh my god.

It's beautiful.

I feel guilty for not tracking the project better since I first learned of it now.

There are a few typos/inconsistencies throughout the most recent document that I found with a cover-to-cover read, but all in all I'm impressed enough to be nearly at a loss for words. Seriously, this is incredible stuff, even with the missing bits that others have mentioned.

Keep up the excellent work, and I think I'll have found a true replacement for 3.5 when this hits final release.

[Greenish]

How come Iron Magi DCs are based on Str? They're probably the most MAD characters in the game, with Dex for KOM, Int for KDM, Con for HP, Str for save DCs.

[Doc Roc]

How come Iron Magi DCs are based on Str? They're probably the most MAD characters in the game, with Dex for KOM, Int for KDM, Con for HP, Str for save DCs.

That's a lingering glitch, thanks for catching it. Will fix.

[Seerow]

If you have Evasion and Improved Evasion, do you get to use each once per encounter, or just get to used Improved Evasion once an encounter and this replaces Evasion?

[Circle of Life]

Why does the artifact An Old Thread grant four Ankh consumables per Quest, if you can only use two Ankhs in a given Quest? Can the Ankhs from the Old Thread be shared? Do they overwrite the normal restriction on per-quest uses on Ankhs? Inquiring revolving-afterlife frequenters want to know!

[Madcrafter]

I have read it through, and like very much what I'm seeing. Can't wait for a monster book so I can run a game (since I don't trust the balance of any monster I create).

A question though; under social encounters, (a system which I very much like, and might bring into a 3.5 game) it states that if such a thing ends with all demands being resolved successfully, each party walks away with their remaining tokens. Does this mean that if said parties encounter each other again, that they will start any social encounter with these same tokens as before? (And therefore the DM has to track who has which tokens with who in between)?

[Sception]

I haven't gotten too much into combat mechanics, but I'm really liking what I'm seeing in the character generation rules. The track system seems elegant and provides a means of scaling the abilities of non-casters in a way that fits with casters. Casters in turn seemed pulled into a reasonable scale without losing what makes them special. Feats are mostly pretty cool. I haven't looked hard enough to really tell if everything balances out properly, but at first glance this may be my favorite alternate d20 game so far.

I'm looking forward to monster rules, and I hope to see mounted combat rules and tracks or possibly alternate classes for pet-based characters.

[Draz74]

A note on balance: Elves suck. Seriously, if I wanted to play an Elf in Legend, I'd just play a re-flavored Halfling. Look at what I get for switching from Elf to Halfling:

I take -2 to saves against combat maneuvers, but I make up for that with +1 to all attack rolls and AC.
I lose my +3 bonus (less at low levels) to Nature checks, but I make up for that with the ability to choose my bonus feat flexibly. (And the Elf bonus feats suck for most builds, since two of them can only be used with specific tracks, so most builds will have to take By Will Sustained, which isn't that great.)
I lose 2 Wisdom, but I make up for that with +2 Constitution, which is more useful for many builds anyway.
I lose +1 to saves vs. [mind-affecting], but I make up for that with +1 to all Will saves.

Basically, the only thing I'll miss from the Elf stats at all is the +2 Wisdom. And the only time I'd even consider playing an Elf is for a build that focuses on both Wisdom and Dexterity. Or one focused on Elven War Dance, I guess.


I have read it through, and like very much what I'm seeing. Can't wait for a monster book so I can run a game (since I don't trust the balance of any monster I create).

Well, ideally, the idea is that you create monsters out of existing Tracks and such, making them pretty easy to balance. I'm sure the monster book will have more Tracks (similar to the bonus content Elemental tracks they've been releasing on the website), but I'm sure the possibilities are already staggering.

For example, in another thread, Doc Roc gave an example of creating an Aboleth by making a character with Full Buy-In (i.e. a fourth track): Just Blade, Discipline of the Serpent, Discipline of the Crane, Arcane Secret tracks. Feats: Something of a Traditionalist, Charm, and Summon Mote. Some kind of entangling magic item to simulate the slime stuff. The rest of the details are pretty trivial, in theory.

Likewise, dragons would use the Dragon racial track, Elementalist, and I'm not sure what else ...


That said, I'm now what, about halfway through the classes? And so far I've seen only one class that gets flight/teleport, despite the book explicitly saying you're expected to have that around 5th level. Should I assume that these abilities are extremely common/easy to get via magic items?

Yeah ... check out the Feats. It's very easy to get flight or teleportation just from those.

[Greenish]

I hope to see mounted combat rules and tracks or possibly alternate classes for pet-based characters.Mount rules should be out pretty soon (http://www.ruleofcool.com/?page_id=95), pending on their typewriter.

[Edit]:
And the only time I'd even consider playing an Elf is for a build that focuses on both Wisdom and Dexterity.Not too many those around. Only rogue and sage come to mind. And the Con penalty still hurts.

[Seerow]

Yeah ... check out the Feats. It's very easy to get flight or teleportation just from those.


Yeah someone else mentioned that. I'm just going through the book in order for the most part, so I'll get to the feats soon. I'm going through the Sage now. (Who is apparently a Jedi with one of the optional tracks, which I find hilarious)

I've also run across a couple more tracks with fly/teleport, which is good.


As an aside, I'm thinking a Rogue with the Swashbuckler track and a multiclass for the Paladin Smite track would be pretty awesome. There just seems to be a lot of synergy, where the Swashbuckler features would let you stack up those charisma mods to damage really fast.


Question though, if you as a rogue multiclass away your offense or defense track what do you get as your KOM/KDM? The KOM/KDM of the multiclass?

[Greenish]

Speaking of multiclassing, is there a design principle I'm missing behind making the tracks pick their DCs directly from the classes' stats instead of just using KOM? Multiclass Flexibility just seems like an annoying feat tax, which is a shame since the multiclassing system is otherwise one of the gems of the system.

[Flickerdart]

Mount rules should be out pretty soon (http://www.ruleofcool.com/?page_id=95), pending on their typewriter.
Typesetter. :smallannoyed:

Amusingly enough, throughout most of development, Elves were the best race hands down.

[Seerow]

Typesetter. :smallannoyed:

Amusingly enough, throughout most of development, Elves were the best race hands down.

Really? What did they have before that got changed? Because right now they are kind of... lacking.




Also, for the Tactician, the fluff says that their low HP make them unsuitable for fighting personally.... but they have 8 HP per level (max is 10) and Con as their KDM, meaning their HP is almost certainly going to be equal to or better than most 10 HP/level classes that have a different KDM.

As an aside I think this is part of the problem of having the highest and lowest HP only 2/level apart. But if the intent is a weak HP tactician, it should have a different KDM, agility or something.

[Greenish]

Typesetter. :smallannoyed:Sorry, didn't mean to objectify you. :smalltongue:

[Draz74]

Do the rules cover natural healing anywhere?

Are there any sizes larger than Large or smaller than Small? Do any creature sizes take up a different amount of space on the battlefield grid, or have size-based modifications to their [Melee] range?

[Circle of Life]

Do the rules cover natural healing anywhere?

Oddly enough, it's detailed under the Healing subsection called Natural Healing. :smalltongue:

[Sception]

Is there a feat or track option for getting bigger? The dragon track seems great for playing dragons, but the race starts you at medium size, and I think I must be missing some sort of defined option for getting up to the size that the 'dragon' concept implies. Same with the 'brute' racial track. Creatures defined by their great size, sure, but where's the actual size to be defined by?

[Greenish]

Do any creature sizes take up a different amount of space on the battlefield grid, or have size-based modifications to their [Melee] range?Each size above medium increases [Melee] range by 5 ft. It's in Range section of Combat Rules.

Unless the exception spelled out in barbarian's Rage track is a vestige of earlier iterations, it looks like size increases space.

[imperialspectre]

Are there any sizes larger than Large or smaller than Small? Do any creature sizes take up a different amount of space on the battlefield grid, or have size-based modifications to their [Melee] range?

There are going to be at least two tracks that focus on making you really big (bigger than Large). That stuff is self-evidently material for the Monster Guide, however, so it'll be a while.

[GreyMantle]

Really? What did they have before that got changed? Because right now they are kind of... lacking.




Also, for the Tactician, the fluff says that their low HP make them unsuitable for fighting personally.... but they have 8 HP per level (max is 10) and Con as their KDM, meaning their HP is almost certainly going to be equal to or better than most 10 HP/level classes that have a different KDM.

As an aside I think this is part of the problem of having the highest and lowest HP only 2/level apart. But if the intent is a weak HP tactician, it should have a different KDM, agility or something.

I noticed this too. And it seems kinda odd. I also think it's just a problem of the HP system not having enough granularity. I suspect the addition of 6 hp/level classes would help everyone feel more distinct in this respect.

[Sception]

There are going to be at least two tracks that focus on making you really big (bigger than Large). That stuff is self-evidently material for the Monster Guide, however, so it'll be a while.

Is there even an option to be large? I must have missed the option to be anything larger then medium.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I'm not sure if this is a typo or not but in the Undead Racial track, circle 4 under Lich, the DC is based off INT but all other abilities like this in the undead track use the wording, "(DC 10 + ½ your level + your highest mental ability modifier)" or are based off the KOM. It just struck me as odd because Lich gets to choose their KOM/KDM.

[Flickerdart]

I noticed this too. And it seems kinda odd. I also think it's just a problem of the HP system not having enough granularity. I suspect the addition of 6 hp/level classes would help everyone feel more distinct in this respect.
That's actually a legacy thing - they originally had 6, the lowest of everybody, but got buffed up near the end of the development cycle, along with the skill point change, simply because taking Shaman and multiclassing all your tracks into Tactician tracks made you a better Tactician than normal.

[GreyMantle]

That's actually a legacy thing - they originally had 6, the lowest of everybody, but got buffed up near the end of the development cycle, along with the skill point change, simply because taking Shaman and multiclassing all your tracks into Tactician tracks made you a better Tactician than normal.

That honestly sounds more like a problem with the way the Shaman's multiclassing works than with greater hp disparity between classes.

[Ziegander]

That honestly sounds more like a problem with the way the Shaman's multiclassing works than with greater hp disparity between classes.

I agree with this and the earlier expressed sentiment that the Shaman is not Shamanly enough. Fix the Shaman so it has a more solid raison d'etre and then add an "Adventurer" class (or whatever) with the express intention of being "the empty tracks, multiclass guy."

[Draz74]

That's actually a legacy thing - they originally had 6, the lowest of everybody, but got buffed up near the end of the development cycle, along with the skill point change, simply because taking Shaman and multiclassing all your tracks into Tactician tracks made you a better Tactician than normal.

Really? :smallconfused: I would think a Tactician would still have enough advantages over a Shaman with all the Tactician paths, even if the Shaman has more hit points:

INT instead of WIS as a KOM ... actually, this is a slight advantage to the Shaman, unless you wanted to be a Dwarf (which has great synergy with Tactician in general).
CON instead of CHA as a KDM. This is pretty huge, especially since Shaman is generally the most MAD class, since both of its key modifiers affect the same Save.
More skills (with the 3+6 version of the Tactician).

TL;DR I think you could drop the Tactician back to 6 hp without making it too inferior to a multiclass imitation.

[ScionoftheVoid]

In the Gameplay Basics section it says that rolls are not automatically failed on a roll of natural one. The Secondary Statistics entry for Saving Throws does not override this, but the 2nd Circle of the Rogue's Acrobatic Adept track makes specific mention that you "do not automatically fail Reflex saves, even on a roll of natural 1". Haven't noticed anything glaring before that, just one or two forgettable typos that have probably been fixed anyway.

Looks good so far, and I look forward to running this some time (shame I couldn't have gotten it sooner, or I'd have been able to do a one shot later this month).

[Seerow]

Blinded says it removes dex mod to AC, not KDM. Is this intended to be harsher on dex based characters, or is this a legacy wording that needs updating?

[Doc Roc]

Blinded says it removes dex mod to AC, not KDM. Is this intended to be harsher on dex based characters, or is this a legacy wording that needs updating?

Legacy wording.

[Mnemnosyne]

I haven't found any definition of what a [Scene] is, after noticing it's an often used descriptor and searching for it. I don't feel particularly certain about where the line between an encounter and a scene lies, exactly.

[Flickerdart]

I haven't found any definition of what a [Scene] is, after noticing it's an often used descriptor and searching for it. I don't feel particularly certain about where the line between an encounter and a scene lies, exactly.
Page 110: "A duration of [Scene] generally lasts at least three encounters, or until the players take a two- to four-hour break, whichever is more convenient and reasonable."