Advice for a Basic Fighter-Archer Build

[Palanan]

I'd appreciate advice on a very simple fourth-level build for a campaign I'll be running. I'm working this up for a player who's completely new to 3.5 gaming. He's interested in playing an elven archer, and he chose the fighter class in order to start with a mechanically simple, combat-focused character. His concept is a brash, thrill-seeking hunter who's dedicated to the perfect shot, and he's going with the wild elf subrace from the FRCS.

The campaign is starting at fourth level, and I allow one flaw. I've gone through Eldariel's outstanding Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0), and looked at KSBSnowowl's thread on archer builds (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=194.0), and here's the very simple build I've worked up:

1st: standard - Point Blank Shot
fighter - Precise Shot
flaw - Rapid Shot
2nd: fighter - Far Shot
3rd: standard - Improved Initiative
4th: fighter - Darkstalker

One of the best feats for this character would be Woodland Archer, but that's another two levels away, and in the meantime I'd like to pack the build with as much bowslingey goodness as possible. Able Sniper looks interesting, but I can't see loading up with two mediocre prereq feats. Most of the other custom archery feats, like Ranged Pin or Ranged Sunder, are much too situational to ever be much use.

The one feat I'm tempted by is Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat), which Eldariel pointed out from the Pathfinder SRD. This is sort of Ranged Power Attack Lite, which might be a nice assist, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be worth waiting to qualify for Peerless Archer and pick up the full version. Any thoughts on this, or other suggestions? The campaign could run past 10th level, and while I don't want to railroad my player's PrC choices, it would be nice to give him a solid foundation to build on.

Also, any suggestions about equipment would be more than welcome. Eldariel covered much of that in detail (the dragonbone bow is Item #1) but I'm always open to other ideas.

[vitkiraven]

What books are allowed, is third party legal?

[Palanan]

Sorry, should've mentioned that. I allow pretty much all WotC books, as well as Dragon magazine and the occasional Pathfinder item. Rarely if ever do I use anything beyond that; the quality of third-party materials varies too much.

That said, I'd be willing to consider something non-game-breaking, if it's interesting and creative. Good homebrew is certainly welcome, preferably from the Playground. :smalltongue:

[FMArthur]

He can shoot arrows, but he's not getting any way to make them actually matter with just this. He'll be behind in damage when damage is his only job, even at level 4 (and worsening from there).

With Darkstalker and Improved Initiative this seems better suited to rogue anyway, which would let him deal big people damage using Sneak Attack. Alternatively, a ninja's Sudden Strike is identical to a rogue's Sneak Attack when using ranged weapons, and they generally get more abilities that let them set up the circumstances for getting those surprise attacks, so that's a simple and easy option for a specialized attacker as well.

If you don't have enough feats... consider giving one or two of the mandatory archery feats for free, specifically Precise Shot and Point Blank Shot. Their strict necessity contributes much of the harm that ranged mundanes suffer over other combat styles.

[Palanan]

The player specifically requested the fighter class, since he thought it would be a good introduction to the system. Darkstalker and Improved Initiative were my own notion, fitting into the player's general concept of a wilderness hunter. With my DM Foreknowledge, I can guarantee that Darkstalker will be useful in this campaign.

That said, what would be good choices to replace Darkstalker and Improved Initiative, given what's available for a fighter at this level? Would Deadly Aim be worth it?

[gorfnab]

If you're going with Darkstalker use the Targetteer Fighter Variant (Dragon #310) to get Hide and Move Silently as class skills. Targetteer Fighter also gets you access to Vital Aim (dex mod to damage with ranged attacks) and two exotic ranged weapons of your choice (Great Bow and Bone Bow are nice). Consider taking the True Believer feat to get access to Raptor Arrows (MIC).

[deuxhero]

Elf archer?

Here is an idea for a build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11663884&postcount=122)...

[Tvtyrant]

I believe that the most entertaining build for archery is a Swift Hunter Scout/Ranger, with 1 level of Scout to get sudden strike from your Ranger levels. Then you can apply SS to anything you have as a favored enemy (pick types like undead, constructs, oozes), and get your archery feats from Ranger. Plus, you are a precision damage character with full BaB and Dex sadness (don't need strength to do damage). At higher levels you can go into Chameleon if your a human for more options, but this isn't needed to be successful.

[FMArthur]

I believe that the most entertaining build for archery is a Swift Hunter Scout/Ranger, with 1 level of Scout to get sudden strike from your Ranger levels. Then you can apply SS to anything you have as a favored enemy (pick types like undead, constructs, oozes), and get your archery feats from Ranger. Plus, you are a precision damage character with full BaB and Dex sadness (don't need strength to do damage). At higher levels you can go into Chameleon if your a human for more options, but this isn't needed to be successful.

You've mixed up some terms here and the idea behind the thread is still a simple character, which probably means single-classed. The player is also set on being a Fighter.

[Palanan]

Yup, this is definitely single-classed Fighter for now, with a potential move to Peerless Archer once the player is familiar with running his character. Right now we're just working on the basics.

So, I'm open to suggestions on feats which would outperform the ones I've selected, especially as part of an arc leading to Peerless Archer.

[Tvtyrant]

You've mixed up some terms here and the idea behind the thread is still a simple character, which probably means single-classed. The player is also set on being a Fighter.

Which terms do you believe I mixed up? Swift Hunter is a feat that progresses either the Scout's precision damage as a Ranger or the Ranger's Favored Enemy as a Scout. The only one I mixed up was skirmish and sudden strike, which as I count it is one term mixup.

Taking 1 level of a class and one feat in order to get extra damage is hardly complicated IMO. Especially since the options to make Fighters good at archery are considerably more complicated than it.

[gorfnab]

Taking 1 level of a class and one feat in order to get extra damage is hardly complicated IMO. Especially since the options to make Fighters good at archery are considerably more complicated than it.
Actually you need 3 levels of Scout to qualify for the Swift Hunter feat since you need Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC.

[Palanan]

Gorfnab, thanks for suggesting the Targetteer variant, which I've seen used before. I don't have that issue of Dragon, but from what I can tell, Vital Aim is actually a special ability rather than a feat?

Either way, it seems to be essentially Ranged Weapon Finesse, which would be a great option for now. I'm thinking it might be simpler just to work that up as a stand-alone feat, if someone hasn't already.



EDIT: Okay, there's the Dead Eye feat from Dragon 304 (also Dragon Compendium, p. 95) which adds your dex bonus as damage on shots within 30 feet. I'd skipped over it before because it wants BAB +14, which seems a little extreme.

[Flickerdart]

You'll want to take Weapon Specialization, just so you can take Ranged Weapon Mastery later on. Without a good source of bonus damage, every point counts.

[Palanan]

Ranged Weapon Mastery does look good...I'd just been steering clear of any feat trees starting with Weapon Focus, since it seems like a very weak feat on its own. Eighth level would be a long time to wait for the payoff on that.

[Flickerdart]

It's not like Far Shot or Darkstalker are doing you any good, though, and Improved Initiative is just icing on the gravy with a Dexterity-heavy build.

[Palanan]

True enough. Far Shot can definitely go.

...I'm a little more attached to Darkstalker, though, and perhaps unfairly so, because I know the characters will be dealing with creatures whose senses aren't always...normal.

I'm also tempted by the notion of reworking the Targetteer's Vital Aim as a stand-alone feat, although the prereqs for Dead Eye make me wonder about that. Would doing something like Ranged Weapon Finesse create any balance issues?

--As you can tell, the nuances of mechanical balance aren't really my special gift.... :smalleek:

[Flickerdart]

Darkstalker is useless for a character that hasn't got the skill points or class skills necessary to Hide in the first place.

[Palanan]

Argh. There is that.

*crumples up build*

*does what Flickerdart says*

[Hiro Protagonest]

Gah, why is this new guy stuck on fighter? He's setting himself up for disappointment...

Convince him to switch to ranger. Please. It's really not any harder.

[Flickerdart]

Fighter is a better archer than Ranger unless you're multiclassing anyway, or taking Mystic Ranger for the sweet, sweet spells.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Fighter is a better archer than Ranger unless you're multiclassing anyway.

Yes, but ranger gets actual skills, so you can occasionally say something other than "I shoot it".

[Flickerdart]

Fighter has loads of skills! Open Lock*, Disable Device*, Diplomacy**...




*Power Attack
**Intimidate

[gorfnab]

Gorfnab, thanks for suggesting the Targetteer variant, which I've seen used before. I don't have that issue of Dragon, but from what I can tell, Vital Aim is actually a special ability rather than a feat?

Vital Aim is an ability that the Targetteer fighter variant can take in place of a fighter bonus feat.



EDIT: Okay, there's the Dead Eye feat from Dragon 304 (also Dragon Compendium, p. 95) which adds your dex bonus as damage on shots within 30 feet. I'd skipped over it before because it wants BAB +14, which seems a little extreme.
The errata changed it back to BAB +1 as it appeared in the original printing of Dragon #304.

[Eldariel]

I do think you'd want to multiclass a bit. 2 levels of Ranger to start things off would hook you up with all the skills you want. Thug Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) would have more skills at the cost of a feat. Perhaps add Barbarian.

I would avoid Swift Hunter either way tho, because the range limit is a bitch and really cramps an Archer's style. Good luck harming a Dragon if you can't do decent damage to targets beyond 30' range :smallsigh:


Vital Aim I'd definitely pick up and consider e.g. Weapon Master PRC instead (it has tons of wasted feat prerequisites but it gives you a rather useful set of abilities such as increased crit range and maximized weapon damage dice). Peerless Archer is pretty good but when it comes to maximizing damage, it's ultimately harder to maximize Power Shot than Deadly Aim; you more or less need True Shot for efficient Power Shotting, or massive static bonuses (Knowledge Devotion and Ranged Weapon Mastery are a start but beyond that it gets hard).

Again, Peerless Archer isn't bad but I feel for what you're doing, depending on your exact stats, you might want some of the other 3.0 PRCs instead (or in addition! 3 levels of PA followed by anything is strong). For the record, the worthwhile 3.0 archery PRCs are Peerless Archer [Silver Marches], Deepwood Sniper [Masters of the Wild], Order of the Bow Initiate [Sword & Fist] & Weapon Master [Sword & Fist].

Weapon Master is kinda tough prerequisite-wise, but the kit is actually pretty good for an archer. Maximizing weapon damage dice on Large Greatbow (Targeteer with Strongarm Bracers) and maybe Enlargement actually does a decent chunk of damage and getting +2 crit range on an x3 weapon is really nice. And then it of course increases your crit multiplier too. Deepwood Sniper would increase multiplier and Order gives some nice static boosts and some Ranged Sneak Attack for when you're in a position to apply it.

[Randomguy]

You could swap out your bonus feats for rogue sneak attack, but I don't think that's worth it in this case.

What about human paragon? One level could give hide or move silently as a class skill from then on. Also, isn't there a feat called able learner somewhere that lets you treat class skills from one class as class skills from another class? If you take a level of human paragon, that would let you treat 10 skills of your choice as class skills. This would let you take darkstalker.

Some neat feats ranged feats are ranged disarm, to disarm your enemies from a distance and penetrating shot, for when the enemies are lined up in a row.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You could swap out your bonus feats for rogue sneak attack, but I don't think that's worth it in this case.

What about human paragon? One level could give hide or move silently as a class skill from then on. Also, isn't there a feat called able learner somewhere that lets you treat class skills from one class as class skills from another class? If you take a level of human paragon, that would let you treat 10 skills of your choice as class skills. This would let you take darkstalker.

Some neat feats ranged feats are ranged disarm, to disarm your enemies from a distance and penetrating shot, for when the enemies are lined up in a row.

That's not how multiclassing and skills work. And that's not how Able Learner works. They do work together to effectively treat them as class skills, but individually, they do not work that way.

[FMArthur]

You could swap out your bonus feats for rogue sneak attack, but I don't think that's worth it in this case.

What about human paragon? One level could give hide or move silently as a class skill from then on. Also, isn't there a feat called able learner somewhere that lets you treat class skills from one class as class skills from another class? If you take a level of human paragon, that would let you treat 10 skills of your choice as class skills. This would let you take darkstalker.

Some neat feats ranged feats are ranged disarm, to disarm your enemies from a distance and penetrating shot, for when the enemies are lined up in a row.

See this just illustrates why I think Fighter is a bad idea for where the build is headed. It does not support it and most of your resources go into trying to force it to. A couple levels of Fighter for feats might be nice, but really in the interest of a simple build where you must be single-classed, I would not even consider Fighter at all. It doesn't gain an in-class benefit from stealth, it has a hard time becoming stealthy, and it doesn't improve your pitiful damage with arrows - that last bit's important if you want your new player to have fun because he's going to feel useless. Fighter's synergy with archery is basically to get a kickstart on being able to do it at all by getting the mandatory feats fast early on. After that there's no point. 2 levels at most.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

One thing you could do, to make this a bit easier to achieve is instead of looking to ACF's, special feats and whatnot to just adjust the fighter class yourself a bit.

For example, I am dming for a fighter right now that *really* wanted to be a fighter, but also put points in Int and was putting all kinds of cross-class skill ranks on the sheet. I offered that the fighter could trade some proficiencies in return for skills.

In this case, you could offer that the fighter gets 4 sp / level and any two extra class skills at the loss of medium and heavy armor proficiency and proficiency with all but one or two melee martial weapons.

[Randomguy]

One thing you could do, to make this a bit easier to achieve is instead of looking to ACF's, special feats and whatnot to just adjust the fighter class yourself a bit.

For example, I am dming for a fighter right now that *really* wanted to be a fighter, but also put points in Int and was putting all kinds of cross-class skill ranks on the sheet. I offered that the fighter could trade some proficiencies in return for skills.

In this case, you could offer that the fighter gets 4 sp / level and any two extra class skills at the loss of medium and heavy armor proficiency and proficiency with all but one or two melee martial weapons.

Or just let him swap out proficiency with melee martial weapons, since he's going to be an archer anyway.

[Incanur]

I recommend the Hit-and-Run fighter variant from Drow of the Underdark.

[Safety Sword]

Just general archer advice: You need bonus damage to make it worthwhile.

Either sneak attack (rogue chassis) or Skirmish (Scout chassis) are the best way to go.

There's good reason why Swift Hunter builds are generally well regarded.

I have played a fighter archer before. Doing 1d8 + (approx.) 20 damage a shot sucks when the wizard has disintegrate and the cleric is touching things for 10d6 on a save with Destruction.

[Incanur]

Depends on the level. Early on, simply dishing out 1d8+3-8 damage per shot isn't terrible because many foes have few hit points. At middle levels, bane arrows can pack a serious punch. Eventually, splitting bows appear and archers gain the ability to inflict absolutely stupid amounts of damage.

[Palanan]

Originally posted by Gorfnab
The errata changed it back to BAB +1 as it appeared in the original printing of Dragon #304.

Thanks a million for that one; I don't have the original issue of Dragon, so I was reading from the Dragon Compendium, which was clearly way off. I'd love to know how that happened; going from +1 to +14 is quite a typo.

With this, Dead Eye is looking close to essential. Is there another feat, probably with Dead Eye as a prerequisite, that would extend the range past 30 feet?



Originally posted by Eldariel
*much good advice*

Thanks for the suggestions, especially on PrCs. I think the Weapon Master would be exceptionally difficult for this build, mainly owing to the number of feats required: seven all told, only one of which (Weapon Focus) I'd been considering so far. Two of the others are Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack, so the Weapon Master seems much more suited to melee weapons rather than ranged. (Also, the Weapon Master requires 4 ranks in Intimidate, and the Targetteer variant loses Intimidate as a class skill, which would complicate that option.)

Order of the Bow Initiate seems decent, and it would probably be the easiest PrC to enter in terms of feat requirements. Deepwood Sniper is more appealing, with some good benefits in the first two levels, but the skill requirements would be tricky. Peerless Archer is tougher yet, especially with 10 ranks in bowyery, but those first three levels look excellent: the same ranged sneak attack as OoBI, but combined with ranged power attack. Maybe two levels of Sniper, three of Archer?



Originally posted by Randomguy
What about human paragon?

Thanks, but the character is an elf. ;)



Originally posted by Randomguy
Or just let him swap out proficiency with melee martial weapons, since he's going to be an archer anyway.

I was thinking along these lines. This might actually solve a couple issues.

[Talionis]

Carnivore posted this Warblade Archer.

look here:

http://69.8.198.229/wotc_archive/index.php/t-831418

in case it is lost .... here it is:

quote= Nadaka
"04-18-07, 03:18 AM
Warblade archery build, required material: Core, PHB2, ToB, CW, I think thats all.

Human warblade 20, 32 point buy (its what I use in my campaigns)
Str 14 +6 item = 20
Dex 18 +5 levels +6 item +1 tome = 30
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 8

Feats
1: EWP Composite Great Bow, Point Blank Shot
3: rapid shot
5: bonus Improved initiative
6: weapon focus: GB
9: weapon specialization: GB
9: bonus blind fight
12: ranged weapon mastery: GB
13: quickdraw
15: Greater weapon focus: GB
17: diehard
18: Greater weapon specialization: GB

Stances: blood in the water, stone foot stance, giants stance, hearing the air

Maneuvers
1: Moment of perfect mind, sudden leap, stone bones, 1

2: Action before thought

3: mind over body

4: fountain of blood

5: dancing mongoose

6: boulder roll

7: quick silver motion

8: raging mongoose

9: Time stands still, diamond defence

Upgrade stonebones and unneeded maneuver as needed. quick silver motion isn't 100% needed, it can be exchanged for Iron Heart surge if the unused maneuver is also iron heart.

Weapons and ammo.
MW composite greatbow +5 str 1510 gp
+5 flaming shock frost acidic 162k gp
bracers of greater archery 25k gp
item of haste

unmodified attacks
Attack 20 BAB + 10 dex +5 magic +1 PBS +1 wf +1 gwf +2 rwm +2 boga + 1 haste = +43
damage = 1d10 +4d6 elemental +5 str +5 magic +1 PBS +2 ws +2 gws +2 rwm +1 boga = 1d10+18 +4d6

Stances: Giants stance + blood in the water. Giants stance treats my damage as one size category larger, bloodin the water gives me +1 to hit and damage for every critical hit with a few limitations. These are the only offensive stances that work well with ranged weapons unfortunately.

This boosts my damage to 2d8+4d6+18 at +42 to hit with a conditional +1 to +X from blood in the water where X is the number of critical hits I have made since BitW was activated (though I loose the bonus if I don't critically hit for 1 minute).

The attack sequence is Raging Mongoose then Time stands still in the first round, and then a full attack with dancing mongoose in the second, then a full attack + swift action in the third to recover.

So i get
r1: 2 attacks at +43, then 2 full round attacks with speed and rapid shot (+41, +41, +41, +35, +31, +26)x2
r2: 1 attack at +43, then 1 full round attack with speed and rapid shot (+41, +41, +41, +35, +31, +26)
r3: rapid recovery then 1 full round attack with speed and rapid shot (+41, +41, +41, +35, +31, +26)

Against a defence 27 or less target I am hitting 95% on 14 attacks at ~41 damage per hit in round one for an average damage of 545.3 in round 1, 272.65 in round 2 and 233.7 in round 3. Then I can repeat as needed for 350.55 damage per round.

Another option is to skip the second round for an average damage of 389.5 per round.

None of this is counting critical hits, and with that the math gets a bit tricky...
there is a 5% chance on each hit to crit for a 4.75% chance of +~54 damage for +2.565 damage per attack. that gives me +35.91 in r1, +17.955 in r2 and 15.39 in r3. Except that each crit increases the damage as well. And I just don't feal like doing that math.

Also note that by taking 1 level of fighter I loose only one of my defensive maneuver slots, 1 hp, but gain 1 or 2 (if droping the ewp) feats and +1 fort save.
With a fighter level and switching to longbow, I loose 2 points of average damage (1d8->2d6 while in giants stance) but I can get weapon supremacy and another feat. I could add twf and replace the unused maneuver and boulder roll with melee strikes for added versitility (because the mongoose maneuvers are quite effective with twf. Or instead of supremacy and twf, I could get many shot/ improved rapid shot to focus on my archery though I am not convinced the +2 effective to hit would be worth it compared to being able to take 10 and add 5 on lower attacks that I would get with supremacy.

The following martial stances are at least somewhat useful for ranged combatants
Desert Wind
Flames Blessing
Holocaust Cloak
Rising Pheonix

Devoted Spirit
Aura of Perfect Order [law]
Aura of Triumph [good] *6
Aura of Tyranny [Evil]
Immortal Fortitude

Diamond Mind
Hearing the Air
Pearl of Black Doubt
Stance of Alacrity
Stance of Clarity

Iron Heart
Absolute Steel
Supreme Blade Parry

Setting Sun
Ghostly Defense
Giant Killing Style
Shifting Defense
Step of the Wind

Shadow Hand
Assassins Stance
Balance on the Sky *7
Child of Shadow
Dance of the Spider *7
Step of the Dancing Moth

Stone Dragon
Giants Stance
Stonefoot Stance
Strenth of Stone
Roots of the mountain

Tiger Claw
Blood in the Water
Hunters Sense
Leaping Dragon Stance

White Raven
Bolstering Voice
Leading the Charge
Press the Advantage
Swarm Tactics

The following martial maneuvers do not require melee attacks
Desert Wind
Blistering Flourish
Distracting Ember
Dragons Flame
Fan the Flames
Fire Repost ****
Fire Snake *****
Hatchlings Flame
Inferno Blast
Leaping Flame
Ring of Fire
Wind Stride
Wyrm's Flame
Zypher Dance

Devoted Spirit
Shield Block ***

Diamond Mind
Action Before Thought
Diamond Defense
Mind over body
Moment of Alacrity
Quicksilver Motion
*Time Stands Still

Iron Heart
Iron Heart Endurance
Iron Heart Focus
Iron Heart Surge

Setting Sun
Baffling Defence
Feigned Opening *6
Mirrored Pursuit
Scorpion Parry
Stalking Shadow

Shadow Hand
Cloak of Deception
One With Shadow
Shadow Blink
Shadow Garrote
Shadow Jaunt
Shadow Noose
Shadow Stride

Stone Dragon
*Adamantine Bones
Boulder Roll
*EarthStrike Quake
Mountain Avalanche

Tiger Claw
**Dancing Mongoose
Fountain of Blood
**Raging Mongoose
Sudden Leap

White Raven
Lions Roar
Order Forged From Chaos
White Raven Tactics

* strikes that work with ranged weapons
** boosts that grant extra attacks that work with ranged weapons
*** debatable: only when using a bluckler or shield. It does not specificy if you must be recieving the shields bonus yourself, so with a loose interperetation a bow user could use this with a buckler.
**** Debatable: While you do make a melee touch attack, it does not specify if this is a weapon related attack or not.
***** Broken: Duration is instantanious, but the firesnake moves at 60ft per round? What action is it to control a fire snake? none is indicated. How many firesnakes can one control at once? no limit is specified? What is to stop me from having nigh infinate firesnakes running around? and dealing 6d6 damage to everything in sight (In this case evasion is actually bad because if I deal no damage on a successful reflex save the fire snake can keep passing through your square until you fail a save.) Can a target he stuck by different fire snakes in the same round? if so we are looking at an infinate damage loop. I recommend as a houserul a duration of concentration, IE 1 standard action per round to mantain or a 5 round effect limit (like salamander charge).
*6 partial: while you don't benifit, a melee using ally can.
*7 while using a 1 handed ranged weapon.

Anyone see any errors here? Anyone have any suggestions? Anyone want to make comparisons to other builds? This is one of my first optimization experiments, and i did it just to demonstrate that the warblade can be effective at ranged combat even if he doesn't start with a martial ranged weapon or bonus feats that apply to ranged combat. Plus he not only is a good archer, but he with the diamond mind save buffs he can survive save or dies more easilly than the fighter and if using iron heart surge he can even remove hostile status effects on himself."

[Eldariel]

Maybe two levels of Sniper, three of Archer?

Exempli gratia, yes. Sniper is definitely a viable path though WM isn't impossible either. If you work Elusive Target, Ranged Threat & RWM into the build you're really "only" wasting 2 feats (1 if you have some Expertise-derivatives). I mean, yeah, getting Whirlwind Attack on an Archer is kinda hilarious but WM kit really does synergise quite well with the easy means of increasing bow damage.

That said, yeah, PA > DWS/OOTBI is most likely better. Your stats also matter a great deal. For instance, if you have high Intelligence there's more leeway to use skill points for e.g. Knowledge Devotion (with or without Education as necessary), and OOTBI becomes massively more interesting if your Wisdom is high.

[Palanan]

I was actually just staring at the PHB, trying to imagine how Whirlwind Attack would even work for an archer. I've never used Spring Attack or Whirlwind Attack, so no real sense of how they operate.

I'd love to use Knowledge Devotion, somewhere, sometime...but probably not on this character. Wild elves have a -2 Int, and from what I can tell, this character will be played that way. :smalltongue: