Being melee sucks.

[Snowbluff]

So I am sitting here, charmed and entangled by a Dryad, which is not nearly as much as it sounds. I failed my Will save and Moment of Perfect Mind failed.

I am considering Gish. Charisma is bad, but at least i have enough Int to cast as a Wizard, which should be interesting.

[Rogue Shadows]

So I am sitting here, charmed and entangled by a Dryad, which is not nearly as much as it sounds. I failed my Will save and Moment of Perfect Mind failed.

I am considering Gish. Charisma is bad, but at least i have enough Int to cast as a Wizard, which should be interesting.

Congratulations, you are the latest person to find out that D&D 3.X is broken.

There were T-shirts, but they stopped printing them.

[Snowbluff]

Congratulations, you are the latest person to find out that D&D 3.X is broken.

There were T-shirts, but they stopped printing them.

I used to have fun as Warblade, but several months of Clerics are making me wish I could do something in a fight. In most other campaigns this is not so much of a problem.

[Lateral]

If you're playing a Warblade, it probably isn't a matter of 'being melee sucks' so much as it is 'Clerics are stupid powerful.'

[Icestorm245]

I take it you don't have Iron Heart Surge?

[Coidzor]

If you're playing a Warblade, it probably isn't a matter of 'being melee sucks' so much as it is 'Clerics are stupid powerful.'

But Dryads have druid-ish SLAs, they don't even have actual casting. :smallconfused:

[Steward]

So I am sitting here, charmed and entangled by a Dryad, which is not nearly as much as it sounds. I failed my Will save and Moment of Perfect Mind failed.

I am considering Gish. Charisma is bad, but at least i have enough Int to cast as a Wizard, which should be interesting.

What class are you now? That sounds really demeaning. (Dryads are, what, CR 3?)

[TheCountAlucard]

As opposed to Exalted, wherein being melee-focused is SO AWESOME that it kinda sucks. :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

What class are you now? That sounds really demeaning. (Dryads are, what, CR 3?)

I am a Warblade.


I take it you don't have Iron Heart Surge?

Who is level 2.


If you're playing a Warblade, it probably isn't a matter of 'being melee sucks' so much as it is 'Clerics are stupid powerful.'

Meh.

So. Any good Wizard Gish ideas? I am thinking Abjurant champion when I can.

Also, I am bleeding on the ground. A unicorn gored me twice, and all but -2 of my health is gone. Shaman decided not to bother casting a Cure Spell to stabilize, but he made the Heal check.

[The Glyphstone]

There's your problem. At level 2, everyone sucks, and can go down in one or two hits.

[Snowbluff]

There's your problem. At level 2, everyone sucks, and can go down in one or two hits.

Kinda. I have a +6 to Str, so I am chalking to today up to bad rolls, but I am no longer taking any chances.

[NeoSeraphi]

Crusader is much better for a gish build, if it's at all possible for you to go on some kind of roleplay-based quest to learn the secrets of the Devoted Spirit discipline.

Abjurant Champion is alright for a gish build, but you're going to miss having all that juicy AC (especially if you are denied Devoted Spirit and thus cannot heal).

I'd take one level of Spellsword to get -10% ASF so you can at least grab mithral/thistledown chain shirt or something, along with 5 levels of abjurant champion and then...there's some ToB gish prestige class isn't there?

Edit: I believe it's called the Jade Phoenix Mage

[Snowbluff]

Crusader is much better for a gish build, if it's at all possible for you to go on some kind of roleplay-based quest to learn the secrets of the Devoted Spirit discipline.

Abjurant Champion is alright for a gish build, but you're going to miss having all that juicy AC (especially if you are denied Devoted Spirit and thus cannot heal).

I'd take one level of Spellsword to get -10% ASF so you can at least grab mithral/thistledown chain shirt or something, along with 5 levels of abjurant champion and then...there's some ToB gish prestige class isn't there?

Edit: I believe it's called the Jade Phoenix Mage

Except I am already level 2 and only 10 wisdom. Kinda wanna to able to cast some spells :P

Which book is Spellsword in?

[NeoSeraphi]

Except I am already level 2 and only 10 wisdom. Kinda wanna to able to cast some spells :P

Which book is Spellsword in?

What does Wisdom have to do with my post? I don't think the Devoted Spirit maneuvers that let you heal yourself allow a saving throw...

Spellsword? Complete Warrior, I think? *goes to check*

Yes, it's Complete Warrior. It would require a one-level dip into fighter or crusader, however, as you need proficiency with all martial weapons (including ranged) and with all types of armor (Warblades only get medium, iirc)

[Elric VIII]

Abjurant Champion is alright for a gish build, but you're going to miss having all that juicy AC (especially if you are denied Devoted Spirit and thus cannot heal).

Abjurant Champion is the gish class. It is possibly the best one there is. Slap some Greater Luminous armor and Shield on an Abjurant Champion and he gets +22 AC right there. You can even cast them as swift actions.


I'd take one level of Spellsword to get -10% ASF so you can at least grab mithral/thistledown chain shirt or something, along with 5 levels of abjurant champion and then...there's some ToB gish prestige class isn't there?

Edit: I believe it's called the Jade Phoenix Mage

Spellsword 1 is actually the 6th level of Abjurant Champion. JPM is good, but don't get too focused on getting the capstone, you're better off with Warblade 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/Sacred Exorcist 3.

Now, if you don't care about getting 9ths you can go JPM 8 and end up with +1 BAB vs Sacred Exorcist. As it is, the build above gets +17 BAB and 9th level spells at 20.

The only problem with a Warblade base is that you don't have low level Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind maneuvers, so you're not going to get the most out of the JPM progression.

[Dr.Epic]

So I am sitting here, charmed and entangled by a Dryad, which is not nearly as much as it sounds. I failed my Will save and Moment of Perfect Mind failed.

What makes you think you could have made said save as any other class?

[NeoSeraphi]

Abjurant Champion is the gish class. It is possibly the best one there is. Slap some Greater Luminous armor and Shield on an Abjurant Champion and he gets +22 AC right there. You can even cast them as swift actions.


Yes, but you only get greater luminous armor if you're good-aligned, and since he wasn't planning his build around being a gish, he might not be good for all we know.




Spellsword 1 is actually the 6th level of Abjurant Champion. JPM is good, but don't get too focused on getting the capstone, you're better off with Warblade 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/Sacred Exorcist 3.


Yes, it's a good class, but again, he chose a base class that doesn't qualify. Unless he dips crusader or fighter, he can't get into it, and he said he wants to be a gish soon.



Now, if you don't care about getting 9ths you can go JPM 8 and end up with +1 BAB vs Sacred Exorcist. As it is, the build above gets +17 BAB and 9th level spells at 20.


Both of these are good builds.



The only problem with a Warblade base is that you don't have low level Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind maneuvers, so you're not going to get the most out of the JPM progression.

True, but if he dips Crusader to qualify for Spellsword, he gets some free healing and he can make the most out of JPM.

[Snowbluff]

What makes you think you could have made said save as any other class?

I actualy don't know the save, but I have had a +9 on Will a level 2 once.

What does Wisdom have to do with my post? I don't think the Devoted Spirit maneuvers that let you heal yourself allow a saving throw...

Spellsword? Complete Warrior, I think? *goes to check*

Yes, it's Complete Warrior. It would require a one-level dip into fighter or crusader, however, as you need proficiency with all martial weapons (including ranged) and with all types of armor (Warblades only get medium, iirc)

Sorry, could of sworn the word 'Cleric' in the post. :smallredface:

Would like to avoid taking more melee, but the extra BAB might help qualify for ABJ Champ, too. Also, could I take a feat for Heavy Armor Prof?

[NeoSeraphi]

I actualy don't know the save, but I have had a +9 on Will a level 2 once.


Sorry, could of sworn the word 'Cleric' in the post. :smallredface:

Would like to avoid taking more melee, but the extra BAB might help qualify for ABJ Champ, too. Also, could I take a feat for Heavy Armor Prof?

Well, you could, but taking Martial Weapon Proficiency for every ranged weapon wouldn't exactly be feasible, so I'd still go with the dip.

[Dr.Epic]

I actualy don't know the save, but I have had a +9 on Will a level 2 once.

Meh, you could still have failed it as a caster.

[deuxhero]

Spellsword 1 is actually the 6th level of Abjurant Champion.

0th level, not 6th. If it was 6th it wouldn't help you qualify for AC.

[Dr.Epic]

0th level, not 6th. If it was 6th it wouldn't help you qualify for AC.

Well, the Roman's didn't have 0th level spells.:smallwink:

Also, just go with druid from now on. How can you go wrong with that?

[Cespenar]

It's more like "rolling a d20 sucks" rather than "being melee sucks" in this instance.

[Snowbluff]

It's more like "rolling a d20 sucks" rather than "being melee sucks" in this instance.

Except that bullrushing it was only option. Same with the first unicorn fight, and when we robbed the stall for a knife. :smallmad:

[Bloodgruve]

If you're OK with psionics I'd suggest Ardent. Take Freedom and Natural World mantles. This will give you Dimension Hop which is a swift 10'+ teleport for 1 PP and Natural will give you Claws of the Beast which gives you some nice scalable claws manifested as a swift action also. I ACF'd in a resist buff from a book called Hyperconcious into Guardian mantle that helps a lot too. I'm have a great time with it, like Wolverine and Nightcrawler crossed ;) The Ardent substitute power ACF is like cheating. Find a power ya want just take a mantle that it could fit in. Warforged with slam and Jaws of Death and Claws of the Beast give you 4 natural attacks + Dimension hop can get nasty. 2 levels of Totemist could boost that to 9 attacks with Chaos Roc Span, Dragon Tail and Garillon Arms...

GL
Blood~

[Incanur]

I love the Warblade 5/wizard 1/abjurant champion 5 progression myself. It takes advantage of the abjurant champion's capstone ability to provide buff spells at a solid caster level while sacrificing little melee goodness.

If you want to be a gish right now and remain solid later on, take your next two levels in duskblade, fifth level in anything with +1 base attack bonus, sixth level in wizard, and abjurant champion after that. Duskblade grants spells, proficiencies, and a feat you need for abjurant champion.

[A_S]

It won't get you full-on primary caster status, but you might consider five levels of Duskblade and then JPM. More melee-focused than trying to transition into Wizard or something at this point, but still gives more versatility than sticking pure melee. Plus, you get the awesome ability to cast spells as attacks.

If your DM is feeling nice, see if you can replace your second Warblade level with Duskblade so you can start JPM at level 7, but if not, no big deal.

*edit* Incanur's suggested build order would also work, getting you Abjurant Champion goodies sooner but less focus on maneuvers in the mid game.

[Worira]

This has nothing to do with being melee. No one's accomplishing much of anything while charmed, and with Moment of Perfect Mind you have a better chance to resist that than most, especially in the middle of combat. Becoming a gish isn't going to make it so you never become incapacitated in any combat ever again.

[Geigan]

Are you planning to scrap this character and start over, or do you want to see what you can do with what you have?

If you're not planning to start anew could you post your current feats and ability scores, etc? Suggestions might be more directly helpful that way.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My suggestion for a buff-tastic Gish build:

Warblade/Suel Archanamach2/SpellSword1/AbChamp5/x...


Basically, you get it all. You get Warblade maneuvers. Suel Archanamach (CompArc) gets you all the buffing you could ever desire (greater mirror image is great for miss chances), AbChamp lets you buff up your Shield spell and auto-quicken it, so you don't need to worry about Shield bonus to AC, and you don't try to pretend that you're a caster with a little bit of fighting capability.

Moment of Perfect Mind should've done the trick for the Dryad. You had 5 ranks at level 2, plus your con mod. DC is only a 13. So 5+Con Mod should've saved you from just about anything short of an abysmally bad roll.

[Dr.Epic]

It's more like "rolling a d20 sucks" rather than "being melee sucks" in this instance.

You'd prefer to roll a d12 instead?

[Snowbluff]

My suggestion for a buff-tastic Gish build:

Warblade/Suel Archanamach2/SpellSword1/AbChamp5/x...


Basically, you get it all. You get Warblade maneuvers. Suel Archanamach (CompArc) gets you all the buffing you could ever desire (greater mirror image is great for miss chances), AbChamp lets you buff up your Shield spell and auto-quicken it, so you don't need to worry about Shield bonus to AC, and you don't try to pretend that you're a caster with a little bit of fighting capability.

Moment of Perfect Mind should've done the trick for the Dryad. You had 5 ranks at level 2, plus your con mod. DC is only a 13. So 5+Con Mod should've saved you from just about anything short of an abysmally bad roll.


Yes, yes, the build idea is solid. EDIT: Problem is my CHA is abysmal. :smallredface: Would be working against the tide to be a Suel Arch.

In other news, I should of made that save. Time to smack a DM :smallfurious:

[Incanur]

I'd be a lot happy with suel archanamach if it didn't require Cha. It's still a solid class, though.

[marcielle]

Was bullrushing REALLY the only way to go? Dryads hate humans but are Chaotic Good and cannot effectively chase you beyond a certain distance. Walking away and then skirting the area she could reach would have bypassed her completely. Setting things on fire and offering to put them out in exchange for her cooperation is also a viable option, though probably only available to Evil PCs.

Back on topic. Taking either Crusader or Swordsage levels gets you a lot of versatility. Not as much as a caster but way more than most meelee.

Bards get Song of the White Raven. Which is pretty darn nice if you have other meeleers or Ray casters on team.

If you have a good Int, 8 Factotum levels gets you pseudo casting and a stupidly awesome ability.

Also, if you have 100% arcano-psionic transparency, Psion might be an interesting entry to Abjurant Champ. Linked Power and the fact that psicrystals are better than any familiar that cant UMD(which you'll have to spend money on and are generally inferior to your own casting) make them a solid choice. Pimp out an Astral construct, then buff it into the stratosphere with White Raven.

[Snowbluff]

Was bullrushing REALLY the only way to go? Dryads hate humans but are Chaotic Good and cannot effectively chase you beyond a certain distance. Walking away and then skirting the area she could reach would have bypassed her completely. Setting things on fire and offering to put them out in exchange for her cooperation is also a viable option, though probably only available to Evil PCs.

We're Evil, are trying to light things on fire was vetoed by the other members of the party. The party members that wasted their time trying to get a the branches off of the tree really *wasted* alot of rounds in combat. Turns out one of the rogues managed to deal enough damage that she was running on 2 health the whole time. I wouldn't of spent so much time doing nothing if the Hexblade thought of using his SWORD. :smallannoyed:

[marcielle]

That was actually hilariously close to something that happened to me once. I shall eat my words, good sir.

Anyway, earlier posts edited with actual help.

[Snowbluff]

That was actually hilariously close to something that happened to me once. I shall eat my words, good sir.

Anyway, earlier posts edited with actual help.

Yeah, I'm actually laughing it off now. The last encounter of the day went swimmingly. I just bullrushed some poor bloke into a market stall. Hilarity ensued and we got the dagger we were trying to steal.

I am considering Crusader, but I'll have to fiddle with when I'll take it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, yes, the build idea is solid. EDIT: Problem is my CHA is abysmal. :smallredface: Would be working against the tide to be a Suel Arch.

In other news, I should of made that save. Time to smack a DM :smallfurious:

Ahh, thought Suel was int-based... my bad.

I wouldn't suggest wizard as your casting chassis... mostly because they're both too much bookkeeping AND too powerful. Beguiler gets a lot of 'no thank you' spells, and are Int based.

Hey, wait a sec, I got an idea...

Dread Necro.

You want 'evil ULTRA' with a side of minionmancy?

Check this out. One level dip in Cleric. Make sure to grab the Death domain. Dread Necro 4. Pick up Kelgore's Grave Mist as your Advanced Learning spell. UrPriest2, then True Necro.

So your build will look like:

Warblade2/Cleric1/DreadNecro4/UrPriest2/TruNecro4/Dread Necro7

Why True Necro? It's normally regarded as one of the most worthless classes ever. And in most cases... they'd be right. However, it has two things which are immediately useful for YOU!

1) Divine Power. Nets you effective full BAB. You can pick up DMM: Persist, because you're casting with your UrPriest divine levels. You've got THREE different pools of turning. So either they stack, including effective cleric level for turning, OR you have plenty of turn attempts for all the DMM: Persisting you'd ever want to do.

2) Zone of Desecration. Saves you from ever needing to cast the spell.

Also, make sure to pick up Aura of Terror from your next Advanced Learning from Dread Necro. Now you make people Frightened just by getting within 15' of you. For more fun, tack on Dread Witch to bypass fear immunities.

If you don't care about not needing to cast Desecrate, then Warblade2/Dread Necro4/UrPriest2/Mystic Theurge7/Dread Necro5 works as well 9's on Cleric casting, with enough other fun stuff to be perfectly viable.

If you want less Cleric casting and more fearing:

Warblade2/Dread Necro7/Dread Witch5/Dread Necro6

Bypass immunities to Fear. You don't need to persist Aura of Terror, just spam it when it wears off and you probably won't run out of spell slots. Make sure to pick up a Slaymate if you go in for Metamagic shennanigans, as well as Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy)

[Snowbluff]

Ahh, thought Suel was int-based... my bad.

I wouldn't suggest wizard as your casting chassis... mostly because they're both too much bookkeeping AND too powerful. Beguiler gets a lot of 'no thank you' spells, and are Int based.

Hey, wait a sec, I got an idea...

Dread Necro.

You want 'evil ULTRA' with a side of minionmancy?

Check this out. One level dip in Cleric. Make sure to grab the Death domain. Dread Necro 4. Pick up Kelgore's Grave Mist as your Advanced Learning spell. UrPriest2, then True Necro.

So your build will look like:

Warblade2/Cleric1/DreadNecro4/UrPriest2/TruNecro4/Dread Necro7

Why True Necro? It's normally regarded as one of the most worthless classes ever. And in most cases... they'd be right. However, it has two things which are immediately useful for YOU!

1) Divine Power. Nets you effective full BAB. You can pick up DMM: Persist, because you're casting with your UrPriest divine levels. You've got THREE different pools of turning. So either they stack, including effective cleric level for turning, OR you have plenty of turn attempts for all the DMM: Persisting you'd ever want to do.

2) Zone of Desecration. Saves you from ever needing to cast the spell.

Also, make sure to pick up Aura of Terror from your next Advanced Learning from Dread Necro. Now you make people Frightened just by getting within 15' of you. For more fun, tack on Dread Witch to bypass fear immunities.

Played a DN before. They are CHA based, and Cleric would be fueled by me equally mediocre WIS score.:smalltongue:

Beguiler sounds good, thoigh. I'll look at it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Played a DN before. They are CHA based, and Cleric would be fueled by me equally mediocre WIS score.:smalltongue:

Beguiler sounds good, thoigh. I'll look at it.Glah... wasn't there a feat somewhere that lets you switch out Int for Cha casting?

Wis being mediocre is solvable with items. You only need 4th level spells, after all.

Also, if you go Beguiler, don't forget a dip into Mindbender for Mindsight and party communications.

[Geigan]

Played a DN before. They are CHA based, and Cleric would be fueled by me equally mediocre WIS score.:smalltongue:

Beguiler sounds good, thoigh. I'll look at it.

Once again.


Are you planning to scrap this character and start over, or do you want to see what you can do with what you have?

If you're not planning to start anew could you post your current feats and ability scores, etc? Suggestions might be more directly helpful that way.

[Snowbluff]

Once again.

Oh sorry.

Str:22
Dex:16
Con:12
Int:14
Wis:10
Cha:10

Goliath WB/2
Power Attack, Imp Bull Rush.

Possesions:
0 gp
A Great Club, Leather Armor, and some snickers bars.

My DM should be fine with an impromptu Psychic Reformation for new skills and feats, but I am keeping Power Attack, Since, it synergies in all the right ways with Arcane Strike or whatevs.

[Geigan]

Thank you.:smallsmile:

I can see why you're having so much trouble some times. You're a frontline fighter with 12 con, and you have a lvl adjustment from goliath. You're missing an entire HD in comparison to the rest of the party unless they also have level adjustment. Have you heard of LA buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)? I would recommend it for a Goliath if your DM allows it. Get some sort of con booster as quickly as possible.

[Snowbluff]

Thank you.:smallsmile:

I can see why you're having so much trouble some times. You're a frontline fighter with 12 con, and you have a lvl adjustment from goliath. You're missing an entire HD in comparison to the rest of the party unless they also have level adjustment. Have you heard of LA buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)? I would recommend it for a Goliath if your DM allows it. Get some sort of con booster as quickly as possible.

The LA has been waived. Don't know about my Dex and Con being in the wrong order. I think I may have been trying for TWF, but the last time I played was like 2 months ago. :smallconfused:

[Randomguy]

There are 3 casting classes you can go into right now to gish: Duskblade, which means your magic is sub par but you're great in melee, wizard, for better magic but worse melee and survivability, and wu-jen, for some neat spells but otherwise nothing great.

Right now, if you want to go into wizard, take 3 levels of wizard and then one more level of warblade, wizard or crusader, your choice (Unless you take wizard, you won't get access to level 9 spells). Then, the fun begins, when you take a level of spellsword (Also known as abjurant champion level 0) followed by 5 levels of abjurant champion.
After that, you can head into jade pheonix mage if you want awesome class features or eldritch knight if you want level 9 spells.
Transmuation is a good specialization for you. Ban enchantment, evocation, and don't focus specialise.

The build: Either: Warblade 2/Wizard 4/spellsword 1/Ab Champ 5/ Eldritch knight 8
or: Warblade 2/Wizard 3/Warblade or Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Ab Champ 5/JPM 8.

If your DM is o.k. with you using classes from online, you can look up swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327). Personally I don't think it synergises with warblade that well, since they use mostly maneuvers rather than multiple attacks in a full attack, but your call.

If you want to get in to duskblade, you can take 5 levels to get arcane channeling, level 2 spells, quick cast and the better armoured mage. Then, you can, if you want, go into abjurant champion, but you don't really benefit that much from it. If you finish the class, you get a total of +4 to caster level (+2 now, +2 when you finish jade pheonix mage) and arcane boost for your lower than normal level spells. Woopdy doo. Spellsword is just out of the question since you already can cast in armour.
The real gold is in jade pheonix mage. Most-all of it's abilities involve making your combat spells better, adding on metamagic feats, and are activated by hitting people with maneuvers. Duskblades specialise in combat spells, desperately need to be able to use metamagic feats and can cast spells through their weapon. The combo is pure win.
After that? One more level of duskblade increses your initater level by one and adds a few spells. Then 2 more of warblade to get level 9 maneuvers.

The build: Warblade 2/duskblade 5/JPM 10/duskblade 1/warblade 2. The roll: Kill people by casting an automatically empowered spell through a maneuver after a charge while leap attacking. You deal damage, and lots of it. Don't ignore the buffs in your list though: Casting true strike lets you power attack away your entire BAB and still hit, and greater magic weapon is a must have.

EDIT: Didn't realize you were evil. That means jade pheonix mage isn't an option, unless you either have your DM refluff the class or turn neutral by a certain point.

[Geigan]

Not a lot I can say that hasn't been said on advice for gishiness without being redundant. So I'll be even more redundant and post a link to the gish handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786.0) to cover some of the more general advice in case we forgot something.

[Snowbluff]

There are 3 casting classes you can go into right now to gish: Duskblade, which means your magic is sub par but you're great in melee, wizard, for better magic but worse melee and survivability, and wu-jen, for some neat spells but otherwise nothing great.

Right now, if you want to go into wizard, take 3 levels of wizard and then one more level of warblade, wizard or crusader, your choice (Unless you take wizard, you won't get access to level 9 spells). Then, the fun begins, when you take a level of spellsword (Also known as abjurant champion level 0) followed by 5 levels of abjurant champion.
After that, you can head into jade pheonix mage if you want awesome class features or eldritch knight if you want level 9 spells.
Transmuation is a good specialization for you. Ban enchantment, evocation, and don't focus specialise.

The build: Either: Warblade 2/Wizard 4/spellsword 1/Ab Champ 5/ Eldritch knight 8
or: Warblade 2/Wizard 3/Warblade or Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Ab Champ 5/JPM 8.

If your DM is o.k. with you using classes from online, you can look up swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327). Personally I don't think it synergises with warblade that well, since they use mostly maneuvers rather than multiple attacks in a full attack, but your call.

If you want to get in to duskblade, you can take 5 levels to get arcane channeling, level 2 spells, quick cast and the better armoured mage. Then, you can, if you want, go into abjurant champion, but you don't really benefit that much from it. If you finish the class, you get a total of +4 to caster level (+2 now, +2 when you finish jade pheonix mage) and arcane boost for your lower than normal level spells. Woopdy doo. Spellsword is just out of the question since you already can cast in armour.
The real gold is in jade pheonix mage. Most-all of it's abilities involve making your combat spells better, adding on metamagic feats, and are activated by hitting people with maneuvers. Duskblades specialise in combat spells, desperately need to be able to use metamagic feats and can cast spells through their weapon. The combo is pure win.
After that? One more level of duskblade increses your initater level by one and adds a few spells. Then 2 more of warblade to get level 9 maneuvers.

The build: Warblade 2/duskblade 5/JPM 10/duskblade 1/warblade 2. The roll: Kill people by casting an automatically empowered spell through a maneuver after a charge while leap attacking. You deal damage, and lots of it. Don't ignore the buffs in your list though: Casting true strike lets you power attack away your entire BAB and still hit, and greater magic weapon is a must have.

EDIT: Didn't realize you were evil. That means jade pheonix mage isn't an option, unless you either have your DM refluff the class or turn neutral by a certain point.

Definitely going with a Wizard build. Will be a while, though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Duskblade would not be the worst thing that has ever happened to your character. Not much casting, but lots of synergy with Arcane Strike.

The problem with Duskblade is that it is cursedly difficult to get meaningful spells on your Spells Known list. However, if you just go in for Arcane Strike, then you could always dip out for something with a more relevant list.

[navar100]

So I am sitting here, charmed and entangled by a Dryad, which is not nearly as much as it sounds. I failed my Will save and Moment of Perfect Mind failed.

I am considering Gish. Charisma is bad, but at least i have enough Int to cast as a Wizard, which should be interesting.

You failed a Concentration check.
Deal with it.
A spellcaster can fail a saving throw too.
An unlucky die roll doesn't prove anything.

[Hiro Protagonest]

In other news, I should of made that save. Time to smack a DM :smallfurious:
I should have better grades. Doesn't mean I'm going to smack my teachers.

If you honestly think PCs should be immune to bad things, go play a video game where death is a ten second inconvenience.

You failed a Concentration check.
Deal with it.
A spellcaster can fail a saving throw too.
An unlucky die roll doesn't prove anything.

Yeah. How would being a caster have made this any different?

[Snowbluff]

I should have better grades. Doesn't mean I'm going to smack my teachers.

If you honestly think PCs should be immune to bad things, go play a video game where death is a ten second inconvenience.


Yeah. How would being a caster have made this any different?

With spells (or skills, I have neither) I could of found a way around the obvious "Smash it, take branch" route. A True Strike or 2 would of made this all not problem. I would of dealt the last bit of dmg needed in round one against the dryad, and I would of been able to take out the unicorn the first time without it running away.

It's not like I was rolling ones, just not well. I know enough about spells to use them to remove alot of chance in decisive moments like this.

EDIT: Should be noted I failed almost every d20 roll. But that's not what I am worried about. Just not doing anything useful is what I am worried about.

[herrhauptmann]

My suggestion for a buff-tastic Gish build:

Warblade/Suel Archanamach2/SpellSword1/AbChamp5/x...

I know it's not helpful for the OP, but I just want to jump in and say that adding some sublime chord could really make this nice after gaining 4 levels of Suel casting.

With that and 2 levels of Harmonious Knight paladin (check with DM to ensure it allows you to qualify for Sublime), it becomes a bit of a mini sorcadin that retains 9th level spells and +16 bab. Also have a bunch of interesting abilities (some of which combine nicely).
Harmonius knight 2/Warblade4/Suel 1/Spellsword1/Abj Champ2/ Sublime 2/Suel +1 or 2/ Abj Champ +3/X
Important for the cases when the DM doesn't like the standard gish builds for being "overpowered," but will allow an incantatrix.

Otherwise,
Randomguy's builds look pretty solid. Though I'd suggest asking for the pathfinder eldritch knight, which gets some actual class features (power creep). If that doesn't work, perhaps knight phantom (another online PrC I believe).
Warblade 2/Wizard 4/spellsword 1/Ab Champ 5/ Eldritch knight 8
Warblade 2/Wizard 3/Warblade or Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Ab Champ 5/JPM 8.

[NeoSeraphi]

Otherwise,
Randomguy's builds look pretty solid. Though I'd suggest asking for the pathfinder eldritch knight, which gets some actual class features (power creep). If that doesn't work, perhaps knight phantom (another online PrC I believe).
Warblade 2/Wizard 4/spellsword 1/Ab Champ 5/ Eldritch knight 8
Warblade 2/Wizard 3/Warblade or Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Ab Champ 5/JPM 8.

The first build doesn't work. Warblade does not qualify for spellsword. Spellsword requires proficiency with all martial weapons, which a warblade does not get.

The second build is fine, except for the JPM, as an evil character apparently doesn't qualify for it.

[DoctorGlock]

Have you considered a divine based gish? You have the int to use archivist and from there you can pop into bone knight for the evulz, netting 9/10 casting and 10/10 BAB

[Cespenar]

You'd prefer to roll a d12 instead?

Now that you ask for it, I find the d20 has too much variance for my taste. I'd prefer a 2d10 or 3d6 instead, or even scratch the whole system and change it to d10 or d6 (like, you roll a d10 instead of a d20, and your AC becomes 5+bonuses instead of 10+bonuses, etc.)

[TroubleBrewing]

The first build doesn't work. Warblade does not qualify for spellsword. Spellsword requires proficiency with all martial weapons, which a warblade does not get.

Do Elven Warblades qualify? You pick up Longbow and Shortbow as racial proficiencies, and you've got all the martial weapons in the PHB, which, as far as I know, is all of them.

[Leon]

Everyone Sucks at level 2, just roll with it and move on.

[sonofzeal]

Adding one more voice to "what does this have to do with melee sucking?"

[marcielle]

He does not apparently have the stats for Wis/Cha based casting.
Multiclassing Swordsage and Crusader are actually easy and quick fixes at the moment. Take Crusader next level, then swordsage. IIRC, there were a lot of good 2nd level maneuvers. Then Warblade then grab your 3rd level Crusader stances. With some careful planning you can cherry pick better than an Mo9 by multiclassign between the 3. If you want as many options as you can get, I'd suggest taking few/delaying Crusader levels. They have one of the best schools but have the least maneuvers stances known. Don't be afraid to take a Martial feat to pick up a particularly powerful maneuver stance. Remember, you can attach that one to whichever recovery mechanic you use more often/has the most readied maneuver slots to spare.

[dspeyer]

It'll be a while before gish prcs become viable for you. If you take your next level in wizard, you won't gain any combat capability *and* you're spells will be too weak to take out many enemies. You'll stay in this state a few more levels before you pick up Abj Champ or anything similar.

Psion does a little better, since practiced manifester and augmentation make it slightly multiclass friendly. At least you'll be able to cast powerfully, though not many times a day.

Your best best might actually be to stay in warblade but martial study in some of the more supernatural maneuvers (like shadow jaunt, which would solve your entangled problem).

[Snowbluff]

Adding one more voice to "what does this have to do with melee sucking?"

If you read my posts you'd know it's about options. Even if I ended up charmed I would of at least ofh ave of gotten a kick out of using spells on my own party instead of just punching them (since actually hitting them would result in my death).


Have you considered a divine based gish? You have the int to use archivist and from there you can pop into bone knight for the evulz, netting 9/10 casting and 10/10 BAB

Wow, Arch has escaped my notice. I've already done a pretty hardcore divine Gish, but this sounds like an idea to fiddle with. Where can I find Bone Knight?

[Callista]

Are your party's power levels all over the place? You guys should really make your characters together to stop that from happening. It solves a multitude of problems.

Can you talk to the rest of your party and ask about the possibility of doing some re-building so that everybody gets a fair share of the fight? Try to get something in the middle, making the strongest characters weaker (try Cleric -> Favored Soul, for example), and the weakest characters stronger. That way your Dm doesn't have to adjust the adventure's challenge level.

[Snowbluff]

It'll be a while before gish prcs become viable for you. If you take your next level in wizard, you won't gain any combat capability *and* you're spells will be too weak to take out many enemies. You'll stay in this state a few more levels before you pick up Abj Champ or anything similar.

Psion does a little better, since practiced manifester and augmentation make it slightly multiclass friendly. At least you'll be able to cast powerfully, though not many times a day.

Your best best might actually be to stay in warblade but martial study in some of the more supernatural maneuvers (like shadow jaunt, which would solve your entangled problem).

Sounds interesting, never done a Psi before. Where can I find this "augmentation" you speak of?

Are your party's power levels all over the place? You guys should really make your characters together to stop that from happening. It solves a multitude of problems.

Can you talk to the rest of your party and ask about the possibility of doing some re-building so that everybody gets a fair share of the fight? Try to get something in the middle, making the strongest characters weaker (try Cleric -> Favored Soul, for example), and the weakest characters stronger. That way your Dm doesn't have to adjust the adventure's challenge level.

I'll toss the idea out there. Though the rogues are rather partial to the class, the hexblade might be fine with it. I don't know about the shaman guy, I am not even sue what class he is playing. though, power difference is why I am leaning toward Bequiler/ Dusk Blade/ Psi War (thanks to dspeyer) to keep things balanced.

[DoctorGlock]

Wow, Arch has escaped my notice. I've already done a pretty hardcore divine Gish, but this sounds like an idea to fiddle with. Where can I find Bone Knight?

I could be wrong but i think it is in eberron's five nations. considering that archivists also essentially get every arcane spell ever on their list as well...

Psions do make rather amazing gishes, mostly for the ability to do unpleasant things to the action economy. My personal preference is for Ardents, but those require wisdom. Regular psi is slightly less effective, but any of them can make it into slayer and watch the murder train just keep chugging.

[Saviour]

If you read my posts you'd know it's about options. Even if I ended up charmed I would of at least ofh ave of gotten a kick out of using spells on my own party instead of just punching them (since actually hitting them would result in my death).Being charmed doesn't mean you have to attack your party. You have to consider the Charmer your good friend, but hey, so are your actual party. You might be expected to try to stop the battle, or provide an escape route for your "friend", but not to attack your other friends.

Plus, if Charm person is used on you in a battle, you get a +4 to the save. It's a first level spell. People sometimes forget that.[/Half Fey blaster with Charm Person at will]

[Snowbluff]

Being charmed doesn't mean you have to attack your party. You have to consider the Charmer your good friend, but hey, so are your actual party. You might be expected to try to stop the battle, or provide an escape route for your "friend", but not to attack your other friends.

Plus, if Charm person is used on you in a battle, you get a +4 to the save. It's a first level spell. People sometimes forget that.[/Half Fey blaster with Charm Person at will]

Yes, we all know I would of made the save at this point.

I actually tried to use this loophole. I also pointed out I was not friendly with the tree I was trying to get a branch from. The DM vetoed that, as well as me intentional trying to fail reflex saves from the Dryad's entangle.

[The Glyphstone]

So it was a case of your DM effectively giving the Dryad Dominate Person instead of Charm Person. That would have made being a gish even worse, because then you would have caused more damage.

[Psyren]

Charm != Dominate. At best the Dryad would have had you acting like the concerned family member wondering why everyone else is going at it, and at worst you'd be doing subdual to everyone and everything to make them stop without hurting anyone, provoking AoO in the process from your party who could quickly and safely drop you.

And you're fighting a Dryad at level 2, which is a pretty tough encounter. One Deep Slumber could have knocked you all on your asses, and she gets 3.

[Callista]

Well--unless your character actually did hate his party members enough to kill them at the behest of his "new friend". In which case, you've got more problems than just the dryad.

[Snowbluff]

Well--unless your character actually did hate his party members enough to kill them at the behest of his "new friend". In which case, you've got more problems than just the dryad.

Killing them would of been preferable, but the plot device handcuffs mean we can't move too far away form each other or die, or we all die. My request to the party to got steal some Disjunction Scrolls or pay a Wizard to do it were denied.

Dying would mean I get to reroll though.


Charm != Dominate. At best the Dryad would have had you acting like the concerned family member wondering why everyone else is going at it, and at worst you'd be doing subdual to everyone and everything to make them stop without hurting anyone, provoking AoO in the process from your party who could quickly and safely drop you.

And you're fighting a Dryad at level 2, which is a pretty tough encounter. One Deep Slumber could have knocked you all on your asses, and she gets 3.

Yeah, looking at this now, seem like I should of been un-Charmed when the Dryad hit me with Entanglement, too. We all made the Deep Slumber save, though.

[NeoSeraphi]

Do Elven Warblades qualify? You pick up Longbow and Shortbow as racial proficiencies, and you've got all the martial weapons in the PHB, which, as far as I know, is all of them.

No. Warblades don't receive simple weapon proficiency. They receive simple melee weapon proficiency. Even if you get Longbow and Shortbow, you don't get light crossbow/heavy crossbow or sling, so you aren't proficient with all simple weapons.

Plus, you still need Heavy Armor Proficiency.

[Rubik]

Sounds interesting, never done a Psi before. Where can I find this "augmentation" you speak of?Instead of spell slots, psionic manifesters gain power points (like mana or magic points), and they spend these power points to manifest powers. Psions and ardents gain powers at the same rate that wizards gain spells (1s at level 1, 2s at level 3, 3s at level 5, etc), but instead of autoscaling, they have to spend more power points to get higher effects. Energy Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyRay.htm), for instance, deals 1d6 points of energy damage (fire, cold, electricity, or sonic, which you choose every time you manifest the power) to one enemy in a ray touch attack. For every power point you spend manifesting it, you deal an additional 1d6 of the same energy type. So spend 4 pp, get 4d6 damage. Just keep in mind that you CANNOT spend more power points than your manifester level (though there ARE ways to boost your manifester level, and reduce pp costs). Check each power for the augmentations for each.

Almost everything in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (DO NOT EVER USE THE 3.0 PSIONICS HANDBOOK) is in the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/

Also, never use the Psionics is Different option. Treat it like magic in every way, except as explicitly noted. Otherwise, it seriously powers up psionics bigtime.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Killing them would of been preferable, but the plot device handcuffs mean we can't move too far away form each other or die, or we all die. My request to the party to got steal some Disjunction Scrolls or pay a Wizard to do it were denied.

Dying would mean I get to reroll though.

So basically, Railroad Plot + Plot Device Handcuffs = why bother playing with this GM again?

For that matter, why is he GMing? If he's that dead-set on something happening, why doesn't he just become a writer? At least then everyone does what he wants them to do.

[Snowbluff]

Instead of spell slots, psionic manifesters gain power points (like mana or magic points), and they spend these power points to manifest powers. Psions and ardents gain powers at the same rate that wizards gain spells (1s at level 1, 2s at level 3, 3s at level 5, etc), but instead of autoscaling, they have to spend more power points to get higher effects. Energy Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyRay.htm), for instance, deals 1d6 points of energy damage (fire, cold, electricity, or sonic, which you choose every time you manifest the power) to one enemy in a ray touch attack. For every power point you spend manifesting it, you deal an additional 1d6 of the same energy type. So spend 4 pp, get 4d6 damage. Just keep in mind that you CANNOT spend more power points than your manifester level (though there ARE ways to boost your manifester level, and reduce pp costs). Check each power for the augmentations for each.

Almost everything in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (DO NOT EVER USE THE 3.0 PSIONICS HANDBOOK) is in the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/

Also, never use the Psionics is Different option. Treat it like magic in every way, except as explicitly noted. Otherwise, it seriously powers up psionics bigtime.

Cool, I actually have copies of Complete Psi and and Expanded Psi Handbook. I'll read through them ^^


So basically, Railroad Plot + Plot Device Handcuffs = why bother playing with this GM again?


1) I don't get to play nearly enough. I mostly DM. The other game I am playing is based on BoEF, and I spent most of my time in that game getting hit on by PCs. Exploring sexual fantasies concerning a half-satyr woman and the woman that plays her is awkward and not on my do to list. Still, I get loads of build freedom for just being there.

2) Even though most encounters are boring, the actual roleplaying is funny as hell. Since my buddy (the Hexblade) is there to make sure things go well, I can actually roleplay a character of average Wisdom. The whole group is wonderful in general, and I have been playing with them for many years, and do so when my college schedule doesn't get in the way. :smallsmile:

[Rubik]

Cool, I actually have copies of Complete Psi and and Expanded Psi Handbook. I'll read through them ^^Just be careful of CPsi. There's a bit in there that's awesome (HELLO Linked Power!) but there are nerfs (both stealth [see: ectopic forms] and otherwise) to astral constructs and metacreativity powers that are complete crap.