I hate Black Friday

[Dr.Epic]

Long story short, I was tricked into going out to the stores the day after Thanksgiving. I was lead to believe it wouldn't take that long. Six hours later I get home at 9 PM.:smallmad:

Anyone one else feel my rage at the semi-holiday event-thingy?

[TheThan]

According to the news I heard this morning. Four people got trampled to death at walmart, a few people got robbed as they were leaving the store, and one lady sprayed a crowd of people with pepper spray to get to the saving first.
this is just Walmarts mind you.

So yeah, I really don't like black Friday, it brings out the worst in people.

[Dr.Epic]

From now on, I'm locking myself in my room the day after any major holiday and not coming out until the weekends over.

[Kobold-Bard]

From now on, I'm locking myself in my room the day after any major holiday and not coming out until the weekends over.

Just be grateful you don't work in one of those shops over this period. It is....unpleasant.

[golentan]

Just be grateful you don't work in one of those shops over this period. It is....unpleasant.

I had a 1:45 AM shift that lasted for 8 hours.

Oddly, it wasn't too bad. I mean, it was miserable for the timing, but after the initial rush when the doors open died down all the crazy people went to the *next* store opening or went to sleep, and the sort-of-sane ones weren't up, so it fell to quiet and then rose to normal busy-day levels after dawn.

That said, still no fun.

[Abies]

I live near (as advertised) "the largest indoor shopping center on the East Coast", the King of Prussia mall. 20 minutes north and 20 minutes south are 2 more large shopping meccas. Up 2 other highways are 2 other outdoor outlet malls...

Needless to say, I have learned to barricade myself in my house on black friday. Actually, this was the first day after Thanksgiving I didn't work in 8 years. Going to and staying in the office was far safer than trying to shop.

Yes, I too hate Black Friday.

[Cobalt]

Did not leave house on Friday; too afraid to look at news that may address if this year had a casualty count (locally, I mean).

For laughable reasons, I was out Thanksgiving night with a friend in front of several super markets and other large stores. The lots were all empty, and there was an eerie silence settled over the land. I tried to imagine the area smothered in fresh shopper blood. I imagine that thought is what I missed in person the following morning.

The day is truely a terror to mankind.

[Whiffet]

Black Friday: Because we completely missed the point of Thanksgiving! :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I hide in my house on Black Friday too. My sister went out, though; I'm just glad she came back alive.

[The Succubus]

Long story short, I was tricked into going out to the stores the day after Thanksgiving. I was lead to believe it wouldn't take that long. Six hours later I get home at 9 PM.:smallmad:

Anyone one else feel my rage at the semi-holiday event-thingy?

Oh gods, yes. A thousand times yes.

We don't have Black Friday in the UK (although some places are slowly working on it, like Amazon) but we do have Boxing Day sales. So when most people would happily be asleep, having sworn never to eat another piece of chocolate or cake again, my over enthusiastic folks drag me out of bed *at 7 in the frikking morning* to traipse around a bunch of stores I have zero interest in, then to um and ah about whether something is actually a bargain or not before walking out of the store with nothing.

tl;dr - bed = good, early morning misguided shopping sprees = bad.

[Starscream]

I actually volunteered to work yesterday just so no one would try to sucker me into going. "Gee, sorry, can't stay up until 2 am to shop with you, got to be in the office tomorrow morning".

[Lord Seth]

Long story short, I was tricked into going out to the stores the day after Thanksgiving. I was lead to believe it wouldn't take that long. Six hours later I get home at 9 PM.:smallmad:

Anyone one else feel my rage at the semi-holiday event-thingy?Do what I do and shop at online stores at Black Friday. Much better.

Incidentally, at the store I work at, we were slower than we would normally be on Friday. Then again, we're a grocery store and our Black Friday deal amounts to just "buy $100 worth in gift cards and you get $15 off your next order."

[Manga Shoggoth]

Oh gods, yes. A thousand times yes.

We don't have Black Friday in the UK (although some places are slowly working on it, like Amazon) but we do have Boxing Day sales.

Ah yes. I remember when these were the New Year's Day sales...

[Dr.Epic]

Just be grateful you don't work in one of those shops over this period. It is....unpleasant.

Man, I'm unemployed. I wouldn't mind that so long as I actually had a job. Making income, fine; just following someone around for that period of time, not fine.

[turkishproverb]

Just be grateful you don't work in one of those shops over this period. It is....unpleasant.

In the same way the ocean is "damp" yea.

[Traab]

Its honestly the worst idea ever. I just dont understand the attraction of it. Yes, you have the potential for great deals, but the only way to GET that great deal is to be the most psychopathic person in the mob and get there first. The good deals are still there at normal business hours and with little real issue. Im sorry, but im just not desperate enough to go to walmart at 6am or whenever and fight off an angry mob of morons to try and get a tv thats 4 inches wider than my current one, just because its on sale for 50% off.

The worst part is that the stores KNOW what the reaction will be. How many people have to die at walmart before they will start stocking larger amounts of the big ticket items so people can come in for the next 8-10 hours and still have a good shot at getting the item they want? How come noone has sued the freaking HELL out of walmart over this? Has there been a single year in the last 5 where at least one person didnt get trampled to death or otherwise killed there on black friday?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Its honestly the worst idea ever. I just dont understand the attraction of it. Yes, you have the potential for great deals, but the only way to GET that great deal is to be the most psychopathic person in the mob and get there first. The good deals are still there at normal business hours and with little real issue. Im sorry, but im just not desperate enough to go to walmart at 6am or whenever and fight off an angry mob of morons to try and get a tv thats 4 inches wider than my current one, just because its on sale for 50% off.

The worst part is that the stores KNOW what the reaction will be. How many people have to die at walmart before they will start stocking larger amounts of the big ticket items so people can come in for the next 8-10 hours and still have a good shot at getting the item they want? How come noone has sued the freaking HELL out of walmart over this? Has there been a single year in the last 5 where at least one person didnt get trampled to death or otherwise killed there on black friday?

Yeah, only the loonies have a chance at the big ticket items.

There was a netbook for only 157$ at Target. The thing is, if I was going to get it at that price, I would've had to be in line at 9 PM, and wait three hours, and then get through the mob.

[Traab]

Just a link for viewing pleasure. Lets hear it for WAL-MART! (http://www.freep.com/article/20111125/FEATURES13/111125011/Black-Friday-turns-violent-7-U-S-Walmart-stores-least-24-people-injured)

[Helanna]

I've never been out on Black Friday, but this year I work at a Walmart. I got lucky - I only had to work 9:45 pm on Thursday - 3:30 am on Friday, as opposed to a 12-hour shift. The good news is that my store is 24/7, so we never closed our doors, so it was relatively calm. "Relatively" in this case meaning "Nobody was actually killed in the initial door openings".

Our first sale started at 10 pm. At this point, every one of our 30 cash registers were open and the cashiers (myself included) were standing ready at the ends. An eerie hush had fallen over the store, everybody tense, waiting. Then, 10:00 hit - you could tell because the enormous mass of people at the domestics end of the store just started churning. I could see them ripping items off the displays wildly, jealously guarding their prizes as they carted away stacks of towels, blankets, and Tupperware. At 10:04 I got my first customer, and it was a non-stop frenzy after that.

It died down a little bit around 11:30 as people began waiting for midnight, when the big electronics went on sale. You could tell when 12:00 hit, because you could hear people yelling - cheering or screaming in pain, I'm not sure which. After that, the non-stop rush started again, with people now bringing down TVs and laptops.

Then at around 2:15 it went dead. Totally dead. I spent the last hour and a half hanging around pretending to do work. So that was weird.

Overall, it wasn't half as bad as I'd feared. I thought people would be really rude and surly, arguing about prices or complaining about people stealing from them, but I only got one rude customer who was pissed that we weren't price-matching competing stores. Everybody else I got was really nice. I think a couple people were minorly trampled, including a coworker who was trying to block an aisle, but over all no major injuries or incidents, and I even managed to pick up a couple of decent sale items after work.

[Moonshadow]

Guys, guys, guys. You're looking at it the wrong way.

It's like, one of the days of the year where you can get away with murder and not get caught :smallamused:

Seriously though, I kid. It's horrible that people get trampled to death by others all in the pursuit of a bargain. No wonder I prefer to do my shopping online...

[Mercenary Pen]

Honestly, some of these chains should be made liable for funeral expenses...

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, only the loonies have a chance at the big ticket items.

There was a netbook for only 157$ at Target. The thing is, if I was going to get it at that price, I would've had to be in line at 9 PM, and wait three hours, and then get through the mob.

I have good news for you sir. And this news is...the internet. Netbooks run $200-$250 as normal, everyday prices on newegg.com and similar sites, depending on when you look. Also, those ridiculously cheap leaders are almost invariably a model that's on the utter low end of the spec list(I used to work at circuit city, including on black friday).

So, from the comfort of your home, you can surf a bit, find out what you really want, and wait for it to go on sale. You'll probably not pay much more at all, save yourself a giant pile of time and misery, and end up with a better item in the end.

[Knaight]

According to the news I heard this morning. Four people got trampled to death at walmart, a few people got robbed as they were leaving the store, and one lady sprayed a crowd of people with pepper spray to get to the saving first.
this is just Walmarts mind you.

So yeah, I really don't like black Friday, it brings out the worst in people.

Wrong. Across a large population (and Black Friday is basically a U.S. pseudo holiday, so we are looking at 300 million people, of whom easily 250 million purchase stuff) some quantity of low level crime is inevitable. Usually, it doesn't get reported on past the local scale, because one person pepper spraying another over a saving, or two people fighting over some article of brand name clothing isn't particularly relevant at the scale of hundreds of millions of people, some amount of it happens. Statistics are valuable, but a few anecdotes prove nothing.

However, there is a preconception about Black Friday that states these things happen then, so they are reported on then when they are usually ignored, leading to the illusion of Black Friday being some horrible crazy day, even though the data really doesn't suggest that. It is a bit busier, there is a marginal rise, but it isn't some catastrophic event that brings out the worst in people.

[Delusion]

So much for buy-nothing-day eh?

[Howler Dagger]

I am so glad I was on a cruise on Black Friday.

[deuxhero]

That's why you shop on Amazon.

[Kobold-Bard]

That's why you shop on Amazon.

Didn't Amazon's Black Friday stuff have a rule where you had to buy it within 15 minutes or it got taken out of your basket? So there's still sale pressure online.

[KenderWizard]

I'm fascinated by this. I just read the Wikipedia article on it, to see what it's about, and they only have one death, that of the Walmart employee in 2008. But the injuries and the big mob is still completely crazy. I'm especially shocked by bringing kids along to it.

We have our big rush after Christmas. Shops now inevitably have pushed back to Stephen's Day, but there's still a large enough group of people who wouldn't shop then that it's not as big of a thing as Black Friday seems to be. I know a couple who decided to do the overnight wait for a particular sale, and everyone had chairs and formed a neat line, and shared coffee, and the shop sent out an employee to make sure everyone was okay, and when the doors opened, they all went in in order to pick up what they wanted. I guess it's easier to keep it like that when there isn't a huge crowd, but people treated it like queuing for concert tickets or something. When the big shops open, there's a crowd, and a rush, but I've never heard of any injuries, let alone any horror stories.

[Keld Denar]

Do what I do and shop at online stores at Black Friday. Much better.

Actually, the "official" day to shop online is tomorrow, recently dubbed as "Cyber Monday". Same great deals, less trampling. Oh, and oftentimes free shipping!

Oh, and its tomorrow.

[deuxhero]

Didn't Amazon's Black Friday stuff have a rule where you had to buy it within 15 minutes or it got taken out of your basket? So there's still sale pressure online.

Only for lightning deals and that's not Black Friday exclusive. Amazon makes their BF stuff known 2 days in advance, so you should plan in advance.

[TheThan]

Wrong. Across a large population (and Black Friday is basically a U.S. pseudo holiday, so we are looking at 300 million people, of whom easily 250 million purchase stuff) some quantity of low level crime is inevitable. Usually, it doesn't get reported on past the local scale, because one person pepper spraying another over a saving, or two people fighting over some article of brand name clothing isn't particularly relevant at the scale of hundreds of millions of people, some amount of it happens. Statistics are valuable, but a few anecdotes prove nothing.

However, there is a preconception about Black Friday that states these things happen then, so they are reported on then when they are usually ignored, leading to the illusion of Black Friday being some horrible crazy day, even though the data really doesn't suggest that. It is a bit busier, there is a marginal rise, but it isn't some catastrophic event that brings out the worst in people.

I did mean nationally. (couldn't figure out how to put it into writing).
But you make it sound like people get trampled to death shopping as a matter of course and the news just doesn’t report on it.

Yes petty crime happens all the time. But I would almost guarantee that it is more prevalent on black Friday and other major “shopping days” than on a normal business day; simply due to the sheer increase in foot traffic. What we’re commenting on is that people tend to lose their minds and turn into animals trying to buy stuff at a cheaper price. Take a look at the lady in LA that sprayed a crowd with pepper spray so she could get to the merchandise first; or a mob of people trampling someone to death trying to get into a store. There is no call for this sort of behavior at this time, or any time. While many people maintain their humanity, many also become monsters. its sad to see happen.

[Dr.Epic]

What also annoyed me was that on Thanksgiving I was expecting SyFy to have a Twilight Zone marathon like they usually do. But nope.:smallfrown:

[Starwulf]

Yeah, only the loonies have a chance at the big ticket items.

There was a netbook for only 157$ at Target. The thing is, if I was going to get it at that price, I would've had to be in line at 9 PM, and wait three hours, and then get through the mob.

Ehh, in line at 9 and waiting 3 hours is nothing. At the nearest Best Buy, people had been camping out since Tuesday in order to get whatever super deal it was that they had going on. Made our local news ><

I can't imagine ever camping out for ANYTHING. Well, maybe if they were selling a brand new car for 1,000 that normally sold for 10k, I'd do it, but that's about it, lol.

edit: Also, I can't say I really understand the concept of holding the Stores responsible when crazy stuff happens. It's not their fault at all. It's ours, for being crazy enough to be willing to hurt fellow human beings over savings on items. If we could control ourselves better, bad stuff wouldn't happen. Sorry, but saying the store should be liable is like saying saying Bars should be held liable for Alcoholics getting drunk and then driving and injuring innocent people. They just sell the liquor, they have no control over who buys it beyond making sure they are over 21.

[Keld Denar]

Actually, bars can be held liable for serving alcohol to people who are already intoxicated. Just sayin...

Liability is crossing over into legal land, though. Black Friday does really bring out the worst in people, it seems. Human nature is a curious thing.

[Dr.Epic]

Black Friday does really bring out the worst in people, it seems. Human nature is a curious thing.

You humans and your emotions.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Hey, we only have our Black Saturday and our international traffic jams over here.:smalltongue:

[Traab]

edit: Also, I can't say I really understand the concept of holding the Stores responsible when crazy stuff happens. It's not their fault at all. It's ours, for being crazy enough to be willing to hurt fellow human beings over savings on items.

If this was the first time it happened I would agree, but when it happens year after year for the exact same reason then there is a pattern emerging. It is over exaggerated but its still there. Every year the same reports come in. Some old person or little kid gets trampled, fistfights break out, and people get arrested.

[Starwulf]

If this was the first time it happened I would agree, but when it happens year after year for the exact same reason then there is a pattern emerging. It is over exaggerated but its still there. Every year the same reports come in. Some old person or little kid gets trampled, fistfights break out, and people get arrested.

You're right, something terrible does happen every year: We as humans collectively lose our minds at the thought of saving money on items we want but don't need, and resort to mindless violence. But it isn't the stores faults. Hell, nowadays, most of the deals at the stores can be found online at the same time as they are found at the stores. Again, It's NOT the stores fault. It's ours, for being idiots.

[Knaight]

I did mean nationally. (couldn't figure out how to put it into writing).
But you make it sound like people get trampled to death shopping as a matter of course and the news just doesn’t report on it.
...
Take a look at the lady in LA that sprayed a crowd with pepper spray so she could get to the merchandise first; or a mob of people trampling someone to death trying to get into a store. There is no call for this sort of behavior at this time, or any time. While many people maintain their humanity, many also become monsters. its sad to see happen.
People do get trampled to death shopping as a matter of course. However, only very few of them do, proportionally. Lets say, hypothetically, 250 people are trampled to death per year (which puts it at slightly lower than the Black Friday rate being circulated, and makes the math simpler). The odds of that happening to any one individual, maintaining the 250 million shoppers estimate is 1/10,000th of a percent. Will 1 person in a million likely be trampled to death shopping annually? Quite possibly. That minute levels of crime, including very serious crimes exist simply isn't newsworthy. Unless, of course, it is supposed to happen on a particular day, at which point they are all reported, because it must be particularly violent this day judging to the earlier reports made for the same reasons.

Lets take a look at a really severe crime for comparison - homicide. The homicide rate in the US is 4.8 people per 100,000 per year. 48 people per million, in short. Which means that with a population of 313 million (to 3 significant digits), 41 people are murdered per day. Now, if, on any particular day, every one of these was reported, year after year, and the stories about them widely spread, the day would be taken to be one of incredible violence. People would fear going into the streets on Bloody Saturday or whatever, because so many people die. And yet, it is pretty much just a typical day, that looks bad because of how people fail to understand scale. 41 homicides on a day sounds like a big number - and the U.S. does have a pretty high homicide rate, compared to many countries - but it isn't out of the ordinary for the U.S.

[Alarra]

I do black friday every year. I'm a little insane, not wait hours for best buy insane, or trample people and shove insane, but I have certainly made getting in and out of the store with everything I want as quick as possible a bit of an art form. But I'm all nice and helpful to other people and stuff. Like, at Walmart this year, when we were waiting in line to check out I left my mom there and went off to check the baskets next to all the check out lines of things people didn't end up buying for anything that we hadn't been able to get on the shelves, and the lady in line in front of us had been looking for some reader system and I brought her one back. She was super happy. But actually, people at walmart in general were really nice and helpful this year. I was standing by the tv series when they opened them at 10pm and people there were taking orders from people while we were standing waiting so that as soon as they were opened whoever was standing in front of a particular show would pass it out to whoever in the immediate crowd was waiting for it so we could get out of there quickly and others could move in. It was nice to see people not just shoving each other out of the way for once.

But yeah, in my black friday shopping experiences, Best Buy is always the worst. The culprit this year was apparently a 40" flatscreen for $200. I never even go there that day anymore and the idea of waiting through Thanksgiving for it is just way too insane. My cousin did stand in line there from 5 to midnight. No idea if they managed to get a tv though, guess they were something like 182 in line.

I like that the shopping is starting earlier, because I always stay up all night the night before anyway and I may as well be shopping if I'm going to be up. I had this silly idea that since I was starting at 9:30pm instead of 4am, I'd stop earlier. It didn't happen and I still ended up getting home at noon like I always do. My aunt though...*shakes head*...we all gave up and were headed home to sleep a little after 11 and she said she was heading there too. She ended up getting home at 5pm.

My black friday schedule went like this...
9:30pm show up at walmart
11:30pm leave walmart go to herbergers
1ish leave herbergers, give aunt and cousin list of stuff to look for as they head off to Kohl's, head to Shopko
2:30 leave Shopko, head to parent's restaurant to unload a bunch of toys we'd bought for the prize booth and carpet shampooers that were filling entire van.
3:30am JC Penney's
5am KMart
5:20am, Mom and cousin drop me at Menards, they head to Gordman's
6-7:30am Menards
8am Books a Million
9am, back to restaurant, get dad's pickup because there is no room for the 4 bikes he wants us to buy in van
10am back to Gordmans for bikes
10:45 Bring bikes back to restaurant, get van
11am go home and sleep

[Mystic Muse]

My brother tried to get one of those $200 40 inch TVs.


Due to Line cuts, and a guy bringing in his friends to get more than his fair share, it didn't happen.

At least he did get some stuff he wanted (An Xbox Headset, a new TV, and he bought my brother's laptop.) and got to say that he was standing in line for a Faith Hill CD.

On Live TV.:amused:

[Comrade]

Hearing about the whole thing where the Walmart employee was trampled to death completely disgusted me and pretty much put me against Black Friday since then (I know it's illogical to hate on the thing just because of that one event, but that's the way it is). Seriously? A crowd of people forces their way into the store, kills a man in their flurry to buy ****, and then refuse to stop when the other employees call out for them to stop so they can pull the poor guy out of the masses of crazed shoppers. Even when the police arrived they just kept pushing them aside and pouring in.

That incident alone disgusted me enough that the whole concept of Black Friday just angers me now. I found it even more reprehensible than a homicide.

[polity4life]

Black Friday really reinforces my dislike of being part of the proletariat. There is no excuse whatsoever to cause harm to anyone to consume what are, for the most part, luxury goods. It's embarrassing and disgusting on every conceivable level.

That being said, I do enjoy Cyber Monday a great deal. :smallsmile:

[Tyndmyr]

You humans and your emotions.

What else would you expect from something *shudder* made of meat?

[shadow_archmagi]

Long story short, I was tricked into going out to the stores the day after Thanksgiving. I was lead to believe it wouldn't take that long. Six hours later I get home at 9 PM.:smallmad:

Anyone one else feel my rage at the semi-holiday event-thingy?

Since I've never been foolish enough to succumb to Black Friday, I feel nothing but apathy towards it. Sure, it's stupid, but it isn't a stupid I have to deal with, so why care?

[Scarlet Knight]

In the end, how much are the savings worth in aggravation? I'll pay a little more and sleep in my bed, thank you.

I'll shop on Black Friday when I'm off, but only after I've slept late. I avoid the roads leading to the malls, and shop the local stores. I pay a little more, but they have sales too, and are far more grateful.

[Knaight]

In the end, how much are the savings worth in aggravation? I'll pay a little more and sleep in my bed, thank you.

I strongly suspect that has a lot to do with the amount of money one has to spend on luxuries. If you can splurge on that one item once per year, and only with heavy savings, they are worth a lot. If you have the sort of cash to support an expensive hobby or two, to the tune of thousands per year it probably isn't.

[Lord Seth]

If this was the first time it happened I would agree, but when it happens year after year for the exact same reason then there is a pattern emerging. It is over exaggerated but its still there. Every year the same reports come in. Some old person or little kid gets trampled, fistfights break out, and people get arrested.The thing is that the ones that seem related or even tangentially related to Black Friday get publicity. Deaths or injuries that happen on a daily basis, even if they happen more often (e.g. driving-related accidents...I don't have the statistics, but I'm pretty certain more people would die from those per day than on anything related to Black Friday) don't get publicity outside of local circles unless there's something really special about it.

If someone's going to get appalled about Black Friday deaths, I think they should get even more appalled about driving deaths. Those happen more often and they happen every day instead of once a year.

[polity4life]

The thing is that the ones that seem related or even tangentially related to Black Friday get publicity. Deaths or injuries that happen on a daily basis, even if they happen more often (e.g. driving-related accidents...I don't have the statistics, but I'm pretty certain more people would die from those per day than on anything related to Black Friday) don't get publicity outside of local circles unless there's something really special about it.

If someone's going to get appalled about Black Friday deaths, I think they should get even more appalled about driving deaths. Those happen more often and they happen every day instead of once a year.

The problem with comparing a driving death to a death on Black Friday from idiot consumers is that driving deaths typically are an accident. Most deaths via accident involve mistakes without malicious intent.

In this instance of Black Friday, these consumers willfully neglected the health, and lives, of those they are harming. Someone is dying under your feet and few go to help. The outcome? The dying actually expires and the helpers are wounded.

It's actually quite sociopathic if you think about it.

[Traab]

The thing is that the ones that seem related or even tangentially related to Black Friday get publicity. Deaths or injuries that happen on a daily basis, even if they happen more often (e.g. driving-related accidents...I don't have the statistics, but I'm pretty certain more people would die from those per day than on anything related to Black Friday) don't get publicity outside of local circles unless there's something really special about it.

If someone's going to get appalled about Black Friday deaths, I think they should get even more appalled about driving deaths. Those happen more often and they happen every day instead of once a year.

And if car makers were intentionally designing their vehicles to place drivers in greater danger, then I would be appalled. Stores like walmart, target, best buy, or whatever, they intentionally design their black friday sales to have a narrow window of opportunity for people to benefit, which causes them to rush and panic, and stampede. They KNOW their sale design causes this effect. Yes, there are crimes and injuries that happen at stores year round, but this is one event that could only be more perfectly designed to create dangerous situations if they salted the parking lots with land mines the night before.

[Helanna]

And if car makers were intentionally designing their vehicles to place drivers in greater danger, then I would be appalled. Stores like walmart, target, best buy, or whatever, they intentionally design their black friday sales to have a narrow window of opportunity for people to benefit, which causes them to rush and panic, and stampede. They KNOW their sale design causes this effect. Yes, there are crimes and injuries that happen at stores year round, but this is one event that could only be more perfectly designed to create dangerous situations if they salted the parking lots with land mines the night before.

Actually, my store takes quite a lot of safety precautions. It doesn't close, so there's no opening rush, we had a few cops roaming the store, and they hired a bunch of temps that mostly hung around making sure people were behaving. The store was no more dangerous than the drive to it. So still mildly dangerous, but not unusually so, and everybody who chose to be there was fully aware of the risk.

I'm not really sure how you can blame the stores - they're providing a service. People would be pissed if we didn't have a Black Friday sale. If other people decide to get irrationally violent over a couple bucks, that's not the store's fault.

[Mercenary Pen]

Actually, my store takes quite a lot of safety precautions. It doesn't close, so there's no opening rush, we had a few cops roaming the store, and they hired a bunch of temps that mostly hung around making sure people were behaving. The store was no more dangerous than the drive to it. So still mildly dangerous, but not unusually so, and everybody who chose to be there was fully aware of the risk.

Sounds like you've actually got people in management who are concerned about areas other than the sales figures- sometimes that can be a rarity.

[Scarlet Knight]

I strongly suspect that has a lot to do with the amount of money one has to spend on luxuries. If you can splurge on that one item once per year, and only with heavy savings, they are worth a lot. If you have the sort of cash to support an expensive hobby or two, to the tune of thousands per year it probably isn't.

You're right, money does play into it. I also feel me age plays into it. When I was young, I would have camped out for concert tickets, but now would never even consider doing it .

[TheThan]

People do get trampled to death shopping as a matter of course. However, only very few of them do, proportionally. Lets say, hypothetically, 250 people are trampled to death per year (which puts it at slightly lower than the Black Friday rate being circulated, and makes the math simpler). The odds of that happening to any one individual, maintaining the 250 million shoppers estimate is 1/10,000th of a percent. Will 1 person in a million likely be trampled to death shopping annually? Quite possibly. That minute levels of crime, including very serious crimes exist simply isn't newsworthy. Unless, of course, it is supposed to happen on a particular day, at which point they are all reported, because it must be particularly violent this day judging to the earlier reports made for the same reasons.




Wait, We know four people died from being trampled to death on black Friday, we don’t know if this is a common occurrence for the rest of the year. But judging from the lack of headlines concerning this subject I would say it’s a pretty sure bet that it doesn’t really happen. Sensationalism news being what it is, it’d naturally jump on such a headline.

You can make up whatever numbers you like for your example. But that’s all it is, made up numbers and math to support your made up numbers.

[Sipex]

Up here we've started to adopt Black Friday, heck, we even had all the same stuff on sale at our local Wal-Mart as you folks in the U.S. had.

Ours started at 7am though (Apparently our wal-mart wanted to be merciful to their employees) and I was in line at 6:30 for a wii.

I guess it really hasn't caught on or something because, while the store was full (very full) of people getting TVs, Wiis and other things there was no trampling or rushing crowd.

We were told if we ran we would be immediately kicked out of the store and those who wanted electronics had to form a nice line and wait as we got our products one at a time.

Do the U.S. chains not do this?

[Squark]

Up here we've started to adopt Black Friday, heck, we even had all the same stuff on sale at our local Wal-Mart as you folks in the U.S. had.

Ours started at 7am though (Apparently our wal-mart wanted to be merciful to their employees) and I was in line at 6:30 for a wii.

I guess it really hasn't caught on or something because, while the store was full (very full) of people getting TVs, Wiis and other things there was no trampling or rushing crowd.

We were told if we ran we would be immediately kicked out of the store and those who wanted electronics had to form a nice line and wait as we got our products one at a time.

Do the U.S. chains not do this?

ha.

ha ha.

HEHEHEEHEHEHEHEHE

To put it bluntly; Generally not.

[Sipex]

Okay, so I guess the next question is. Why not?

It's so basic.

Mindbogglingly basic.

And there's no money or unions involved. Do the U.S. chains need to keep the threat alive to keep the employees in line or something? If so they should take some tips from their people up here who do a great job at crushing the souls of their employees with zero tramplings.

[Mercenary Pen]

Okay, so I guess the next question is. Why not?

It's so basic.

Mindbogglingly basic.

And there's no money or unions involved. Do the U.S. chains need to keep the threat alive to keep the employees in line or something? If so they should take some tips from their people up here who do a great job at crushing the souls of their employees with zero tramplings.

Agreed, if necessary you could even post staff at the door to try and make sure that you don't get more customers in the store than the premises can handle at any one time, it's simple, it cuts down on jeopardy to your staff, it makes sure the local cops and paramedics aren't cursing your store with every second breath.

[Starwulf]

Agreed, if necessary you could even post staff at the door to try and make sure that you don't get more customers in the store than the premises can handle at any one time, it's simple, it cuts down on jeopardy to your staff, it makes sure the local cops and paramedics aren't cursing your store with every second breath.

I guess one of the benefits of living in a more rural type area, is that even the bigger city a 35 minute drive away(Hagerstown), is pretty well regulated for it's Black Friday shopping. Toys'R'Us had a huge line outside, because there was a cop and several staff members standing outside, only letting in groups of 25-50 people every 10 minutes or so in order to stop from over-crowding, and the Wal-Mart in Hagerstown didn't close at all, so there were no crazy crowds, and from what I've heard of other stores from family that shopped there, other stores were very well regulated as well, only letting people in orderly lines and not allowing stampeding and over-all craziness.

[quinnr]

All I wanted this Black Friday was a pair of nice headphones from Five Below (like the dollar store, but everything is five dollars or less). I went in later in the day, only a few people were there, and I got my replacement headphones for five dollars.

I just didn't see any deals this year that would be worth the pain of getting trampled at 11PM on Thanksgiving. Seriously though, what's up with those stores opening that early? It's not even Friday yet, people! :smallyuk:

[Hiro Protagonest]

What else would you expect from something *shudder* made of meat?

Hey! I'm made of meat! Don't lump me with the humans!

[Keld Denar]

Okay, so I guess the next question is. Why not?

The short answer? No reason.

Really, most black friday sales are limited based on quantity, rather than time. It it took an extra hour for all of the Widget Plus OnesTM to sell out, they still would have sold 100,000 Widget Plus OnesTM. Thus, the only reason NOT to is either to promote the frenzy, or simply because there isn't enough staff to ENFORCE the restriction.

So, you have a walk-don't run policy. Anyone who runs gets kicked out, right? Who kicks them out? Who makes sure they get all the way out? Who makes sure they don't come back in? What if they get baligerent? What if they sit down on the ground and refuse to move? There aren't enough cops to take them out in handcuffs and still watch the store. Once he's got his back turned, who stops the next dozen people from trampling a toddler on their way to claim there super awesome amazing Widget Plus OneTM? All it would take is one dumb person and the whole thing breaks down. Or a lot of cops.

But guess what? Cops aren't cheap to rent. Real, legitimate police officers, the ones with the handcuffs and mace and the ability to write citations and arrest people? I don't know, but I'd wager that they probably weigh in at about $200 an hour EACH, factoring in OT and wage addons (equipment, vehicle, gas, taxes, cause you KNOW the city/county/state/whoever is taking a cut). You could get cheapo rent-a-cop contract security for about $75/hour, but most of them don't have any authority other than to call the police...who probably won't respond because they are at Widget-Mart next door because some lady maced a whole croud of people. Those cheap ones are barely worth the t-shirts their badges are screen printed on in this situation. So you get a higher trained civilian security contractor...and we're back to the $200-250/hour range, especially if they have a vehicle and a gun and the ability to handcuff a fool to the cart coral until the police show up to process them.

So yea...the best way to restrict problems is to reduce the "rush" mentality of the event. But that takes away from the hype and sensationalism of these sales, which is their favorite marketing tecnique, and we can't do that...can we? Not even when lives are at stake? For shame...

[Starwulf]

The short answer? No reason.

Really, most black friday sales are limited based on quantity, rather than time. It it took an extra hour for all of the Widget Plus OnesTM to sell out, they still would have sold 100,000 Widget Plus OnesTM. Thus, the only reason NOT to is either to promote the frenzy, or simply because there isn't enough staff to ENFORCE the restriction.

So, you have a walk-don't run policy. Anyone who runs gets kicked out, right? Who kicks them out? Who makes sure they get all the way out? Who makes sure they don't come back in? What if they get baligerent? What if they sit down on the ground and refuse to move? There aren't enough cops to take them out in handcuffs and still watch the store. Once he's got his back turned, who stops the next dozen people from trampling a toddler on their way to claim there super awesome amazing Widget Plus OneTM? All it would take is one dumb person and the whole thing breaks down. Or a lot of cops.

But guess what? Cops aren't cheap to rent. Real, legitimate police officers, the ones with the handcuffs and mace and the ability to write citations and arrest people? I don't know, but I'd wager that they probably weigh in at about $200 an hour EACH, factoring in OT and wage addons (equipment, vehicle, gas, taxes, cause you KNOW the city/county/state/whoever is taking a cut). You could get cheapo rent-a-cop contract security for about $75/hour, but most of them don't have any authority other than to call the police...who probably won't respond because they are at Widget-Mart next door because some lady maced a whole croud of people. Those cheap ones are barely worth the t-shirts their badges are screen printed on in this situation. So you get a higher trained civilian security contractor...and we're back to the $200-250/hour range, especially if they have a vehicle and a gun and the ability to handcuff a fool to the cart coral until the police show up to process them.

So yea...the best way to restrict problems is to reduce the "rush" mentality of the event. But that takes away from the hype and sensationalism of these sales, which is their favorite marketing tecnique, and we can't do that...can we? Not even when lives are at stake? For shame...

Or, ya know, we as consumers can take a step back, and realize that our behavior is abominable, and work to correct that, and not let one or two ignorant *******s who want to act crazy goad us into a complete frenzy. Ever hear of personal responsibility? I'm pretty big into it myself, and I'll be damned if I'll ever blame someone else for my mistakes, which is what you're trying to do for the mass of people who act stupid at Black Friday sales. Yes, it's an over-hyped sales day, full of mass-sensationalism, but the stores aren't responsible for our actions, WE are responsible for our actions. Our bodies, our minds, our movements, our decisions. The store doesn't implant chips into our brains and tell us to act like freaking cavemen just because a TV is on sale for half-price.

I'm sorry, but I'll never believe it's the stores fault, on any level. Black Friday has been around for decades, and it's only been in recent years that I've read about people trampling over other people just to get to awesome deals. That's more of a sign of the breakdown of society's ability to handle impulse control then anything else.

[ceefood]

What is Black Friday?

[Knaight]

Wait, We know four people died from being trampled to death on black Friday, we don’t know if this is a common occurrence for the rest of the year. But judging from the lack of headlines concerning this subject I would say it’s a pretty sure bet that it doesn’t really happen. Sensationalism news being what it is, it’d naturally jump on such a headline.
We know that there are low levels of crime, we know of specific instances where large scale trampling have happened, and we know about confirmation bias. That a particular day exhibits average behavior is the null hypothesis, and given the knowledge we have (particularly concerning confirmation bias and the existence of particular stories that are repeated) and the absence of data, the null hypothesis is essentially the only option.

[Mystic Muse]

What is Black Friday?

It's the Day after Thanksgiving in the United States. Stores have some obscene deals that people get shoved out of the way, pushed over, trampled, pepper sprayed, ETC. over.

It's really kind of a poorly thought out tradition. At least, it seems like one to me.

[ceefood]

wow sounds like a more agressive version of our Boxing Day sales here in Australia - pushing, trampling is similar but pepper spray not yet - not ever I hope

[Mystic Muse]

wow sounds like a more agressive version of our Boxing Day sales here in Australia - pushing, trampling is similar but pepper spray not yet - not ever I hope

Yeah. It's kinda sad what humans will do for a good price.

[Karoht]

Long story short, I was tricked into going out to the stores the day after Thanksgiving. I was lead to believe it wouldn't take that long. Six hours later I get home at 9 PM.:smallmad:

Anyone one else feel my rage at the semi-holiday event-thingy?
Not really. I mean, I empathize with your terribad day, but I'm more embarassed that people have died over black friday deals. I'm still embarassed that they had to bust out riot gear and pepper spray in some parts. Yeesh.

Also, I feel bad for the employees who have to put up with this nonsense every year. Their lives suck on the same day every year. It's like the opposite of Christmas for them.


I refuse to participate, even here in Canada. I refuse to give the companies another reason to support/enable/encourage this day every year. I also don't shop on Boxing Day for the same/similar reasons.

And I hate dealing with extra large, extra rude, extra unruley mobs of people and traffic.

[Roukon]

The best description I give people for what Black Friday is from the side of the employees is this Shortpacked webcomic.

http://www.shortpacked.com/2006/comic/book-4/04-girls-kiss-in-this-story/am/

Later Days,
Roukon

[Mewtarthio]

You know what I'd like to see? Some actual statistics comparing the number of deaths that occur on Black Friday to the number of deaths that occur on any other day of the year. Otherwise, I'm filing away these "Black Friday massacres" along with the Halloween poisonings.

And, yeesh, you make it sound like the pepper spray is a regular occurrence. One woman maced a crowd once. That doesn't mean everyone everywhere is macing everyone else on Black Friday.

[Traab]

You know what I'd like to see? Some actual statistics comparing the number of deaths that occur on Black Friday to the number of deaths that occur on any other day of the year. Otherwise, I'm filing away these "Black Friday massacres" along with the Halloween poisonings.

And, yeesh, you make it sound like the pepper spray is a regular occurrence. One woman maced a crowd once. That doesn't mean everyone everywhere is macing everyone else on Black Friday.

Yeah because its the latest new thing done by a crazy person. The first time someone got trampled it was all over the news, everyone was talking about it on all stations. It was horrifying! Now its just another statistic read off every black friday. "Today in the news, 4 people were trampled to death at walmarts across the country, Police broke up 5 riots, there were 12 mob beatings, and three people murdered for their great deals in the parking lot. Now on to our main story, Crazy woman wields broadsword to get an xbox 360! We shall be covering this incredible story as details develop. So far there are three stab wounds reported, along with two slashes, and 5 broken bones from bludgeoning. Witnesses say the woman then grabbed her xbox, walked up to the register, paid, and left, before cops could arrive."

Basically, my point is, the mace thing is getting chain repeated because its a new thing. Next year when there are four copycats across the nation doing the exact same thing, itll just be added to the injury list with no special emphasis.

[Dr.Epic]

What is Black Friday?

Day after Thanksgiving when people flock to the stores to get great holiday deals. It's called Black Friday because stores go from being in the Red to being in the Black. It can also bring out the worst in people and has been known lead to violent acts.

[Lord Seth]

What is Black Friday?The day after Thanksgiving in which it's semi-tradition for stores to offer some kind of discount, whether it be really cheap prices for certain products, or just some kind of "buy $100 and get a $15 gift certificate."

[Karoht]

What is Black Friday?The day after thanksgiving that best symbolizes the worst aspects of the modern christmas season. Consumerism at it's very worst, the total polar opposite of the ideals and values of christmas. In fact I would even go as far as to say it is the polar opposite of christmas day altogether. Yet another reason I won't participate in Black Friday Shopping, no matter how good the deals are.

[Traab]

What is Black Friday?

Its the day after grey thursday, when you finally decide to do that load of laundry instead of wearing that underwear again.

[H Birchgrove]

Its the day after grey thursday, when you finally decide to do that load of laundry instead of wearing that underwear again.

I LOL'd. :smallbiggrin:

(I can relate with that. :smallredface: :smalleek: )

[Sipex]

The day after thanksgiving that best symbolizes the worst aspects of the modern christmas season. Consumerism at it's very worst, the total polar opposite of the ideals and values of christmas. In fact I would even go as far as to say it is the polar opposite of christmas day altogether. Yet another reason I won't participate in Black Friday Shopping, no matter how good the deals are.

Not to rag on you personally, I'm a huge supporter of the idea that everyone can have their opinion but I've never understood why consumerism is somehow bad and/or the opposite of christmas spirit.

I mean, when I go to a big pre-christmas sale like this the point tends to be because I want to buy a gift for someone I love who I think would enjoy it.

As far as I can tell this is the general consensus amongst shoppers going to Black Friday, people want to buy Christmas gifts for the people they love because that's one way they show their Christmas spirit. Buying something for someone you love isn't a bad thing, right?

I guess it all comes down to the motivation behind the purchase.

[Karoht]

Not to rag on you personally, I'm a huge supporter of the idea that everyone can have their opinion but I've never understood why consumerism is somehow bad and/or the opposite of christmas spirit.Christmas Spirit = Season of giving, sharing, charity.
Consumerism tends to imply a certain amount of selfishness, though not in all cases. It's the "me me me" factor which flies in the face of father christmas.



I mean, when I go to a big pre-christmas sale like this the point tends to be because I want to buy a gift for someone I love who I think would enjoy it.

As far as I can tell this is the general consensus amongst shoppers going to Black Friday, people want to buy Christmas gifts for the people they love because that's one way they show their Christmas spirit. Buying something for someone you love isn't a bad thing, right?
I guess it all comes down to the motivation behind the purchase.The motivation might be in the right vein, but the reactions on Black Friday, the rudeness, the pushing, the fighting, the arguing, the treatment of staff who work in these establishments, are all rather selfish, even if it is for one's family. It's just a different kind of selfishness.
Buying something for someone you love is fine. It doesn't excuse the typical treatment of one another that we see during the christmas shopping season, let alone what we see on Black Friday.

[Sipex]

Ah, I see.

Okay, that's all straightened out then. Generally we actually agree unless I'm crazy enough to believe that the negative behaviours you just outlined are okay somehow (Hint: I'm not).

I just brought it up because I recently read an article in my local paper talking about just this topic and asking why consumerism is bad and I thought it was an interesting read which made some good points.

[Karoht]

Ah, I see.

Okay, that's all straightened out then. Generally we actually agree unless I'm crazy enough to believe that the negative behaviours you just outlined are okay somehow (Hint: I'm not).

I just brought it up because I recently read an article in my local paper talking about just this topic and asking why consumerism is bad and I thought it was an interesting read which made some good points.Well, you're right, consumerism in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. The behaviors that it tends to bring out, especially at specific times of the year, are typically negative. At least, that's probably a better way to phrase what I said earlier.


I'd get into environmental and related economic impacts of consumerism, but this really isn't the thread for it.