[3.5] Daring Outlaw with some ToB

[Laplace's Demon]

Hi everyone! This is my first time posting, so if I don't post something clearly, feel free to criticize. Anyway, here's the situation:

The other night, a game I was helping run got cut short because the DM and I made the encounter way too hard and ended it in a TPK. One of our members decided to go ahead and start a new campaign that he had been preparing that night, and told us all to make characters. Being without a plan and due to the coercion of one of our players, I started off as a grey elf rogue. We leveled up once during the session, and currently I have two more levels to distribute (so we are starting next session at level 4). I'll go ahead and tell you what I have, what I'm considering, and the restrictions my DM has provided, and I would greatly appreciate some suggestions.

The two levels I've locked in are as follows:

1: Rogue taking Improved Initiative
2: Swashbuckler

My stats look like a 20 in both Int and Dex and a 10 in everything else (I really didn't plan this character much).

Outside of the normal rules, my DM has states that there are no multiclassing penalties, but we are only allowed to have 3 base classes and 3 prestige classes (really, such an awful restriction).

No matter what, I'll probably take two more levels of Swashbuckler so I can get Insightful Strike. My idea to build the rest of the character is to either take another level of Rogue, a level of Nightsong Enforcer, and Warblade for all of the other levels or to take 3 more levels of Rogue, a level of Nightsong Enforcer, and Swordsage for the rest of the build. My biggest issue with taking Warblade is that I don't get shadow hand without taking feats, and thus getting Shadow Blade is really hard (and I become less versatile with my attack styles if I do dump three feats into getting Shadow Blade). My biggest issues with Swordsage are that I don't get swift action maneuver recovery, and that I have no wisdom score. My DM told me I could take Carmendine Monk and make it so the sword sage AC bonus would switch to int, but nothing else would switch.

Here are the build orders I've been thinking about

Build 1

1 Rogue
2 SwashBuckler
3 Swashbuckler
4 SwashBuckler
5 Rogue
6 Rogue
7 Rogue
8 N. Enforcer
9 Swordsage
10 Swordsage
...More Swordsage...


Build 2

1 Rogue
2 Swashbuckler
3 Warblade
4 Swashbuckler
5 Swashbuckler
6 Warblade
7 Rogue
8 N. Enforcer
9 Warblade
10 Warblade
...More Warblade...


Some other notes: I'll probably take EWP(Spiked Chain) regardless of path, but I will almost definitely take it if I go Swordsage. If I don't go for Shadow Blade as a Warblade, it might not be as worth it to use a Spiked Chain (of course, I would always change it to whichever exotic weapon I can get my hands on if I'm playing a Warblade).

I might even be willing to just dip Warblade for Sapphire Nightmare Blade and finish out with Nightsong Enforcer or another sneak attack PrC or more Swash levels.

If I was too long-winded, please let me know. I'll try to cut down on post sizes in the future.

[Randomguy]

You made three threads by accident.

I say you should go into warblade. It only costs one extra feat to get shadow blade. Also, see if you can get Carmendine monk to apply for a monks belt.

[Treblain]

Keep in mind, ever level you don't take in Swash or Rogue limits the maximum potential of Daring Outlaw. Some ToB dips are definitely worth it, but you don't have to overdo it.

I suggest swordsage, since you have to be in a Shadow Hand stance to use Shadow Blade, so you might as well get access to more and better Shadow Hand stances. Unless you're planning on sticking with Assassin's Stance at all times, which is a possibility. Also, unarmed swordsage would get Improved Unarmed Strike, which leads to Snap Kick, which is a free extra attack you can add sneak attack to.

[Keld Denar]

I'd go with:

Rogue1/Swash2/Rogue1/Swordsage1/Swash1/Rogue1/Swordsage1/Rogue1/Swash11

That gives you 18/20 BAB, Daring Outlaw at 6, IL 3 at your first dip for 2nd level maneuvers (Cloak of Deception and Shadow Step), IL 5 on your second dip for Assassin's Stance.

Possible variations would be delaying Assassins stance till 12, which would give you an IL of 7 and allow you to pick up either Pouncing Charge or Dancing Mongoose. Otherwise, you can change the levels a bit if you don't mind waiting til 9 for Daring Outlaw.

[hex0]

Some other notes: I'll probably take EWP(Spiked Chain) regardless of path...

If you have a 20 dex and int, and you are using a spiked chain you need to dip for Factotum 3 instead of Swashbuckler 3. You can use combat reflexes and trip and disarm everyone... :smallamused: Maybe go Warblade after that and see if you DM lets you qualify for JPM via Factotum's SLAs.

[Laplace's Demon]

You made three threads by accident.

I say you should go into warblade. It only costs one extra feat to get shadow blade. Also, see if you can get Carmendine monk to apply for a monks belt.

Thanks for letting me know. I thought I was editing my initial post, but I suppose something had went wrong. I was assuming I would try to go for Assassin's stance should I go for Shadow blade because it would be way more helpful when I'm trying to do damage than the other stances (though, just from the description, I'm a fan of dance of the spider for some reason).


Keep in mind, ever level you don't take in Swash or Rogue limits the maximum potential of Daring Outlaw. Some ToB dips are definitely worth it, but you don't have to overdo it.

I suggest swordsage, since you have to be in a Shadow Hand stance to use Shadow Blade, so you might as well get access to more and better Shadow Hand stances. Unless you're planning on sticking with Assassin's Stance at all times, which is a possibility. Also, unarmed swordsage would get Improved Unarmed Strike, which leads to Snap Kick, which is a free extra attack you can add sneak attack to.

I would be fine with just doing a dip. Personally, the maneuvers I'm most concerned with getting (especially if I don't take a lot of swordsage) are Moment of Perfect Mind, Cloak of Deception, and Sapphire Nightmare Blade. I think Assassin's Stance by far is the best stance for me. All in all, I can easily get those things dipping swordsage, but I feel like they are all a lot more useful if I'm playing a Warblade. Maybe it's just because I'm not very familiar to ToB, but I feel like only being able to do those things once per encounter without dumping an entire round is very limiting. Still, I'm kind of feat starved, seeing as I am pretty much definitely taking Daring Outlaw.

I think unarmed swordsage sound plenty viable, but my DM probably won't be happy if I ask him if I can adapt the class, even though it's an adaptation that is suggested in the book.


I'd go with:

Rogue1/Swash2/Rogue1/Swordsage1/Swash1/Rogue1/Swordsage1/Rogue1/Swash11

That gives you 18/20 BAB, Daring Outlaw at 6, IL 3 at your first dip for 2nd level maneuvers (Cloak of Deception and Shadow Step), IL 5 on your second dip for Assassin's Stance.

Possible variations would be delaying Assassins stance till 12, which would give you an IL of 7 and allow you to pick up either Pouncing Charge or Dancing Mongoose. Otherwise, you can change the levels a bit if you don't mind waiting til 9 for Daring Outlaw.

This build definitely seems like it would get more Sneak Attack than mine would. Just out of curiosity, why didn't you include the nightsong enforcer dip?


If you have a 20 dex and int, and you are using a spiked chain you need to dip for Factotum 3 instead of Swashbuckler 3. You can use combat reflexes and trip and disarm everyone... :smallamused: Maybe go Warblade after that and see if you DM lets you qualify for JPM via Factotum's SLAs.

I would consider that if I could take back my level 2 choice, but I'm stuck with it.


So what do you guys think about the weapon choice? I mean, I am not as committed to spiked chain as I initially thought.

[Keld Denar]

I didn't include NSE because you need to spend a feat on Imp Init. It's not a bad feat, but you probably won't have a spare feat until level 12 or so. I guess you could do it there, and it wouldn't affect too much. I guess it would eventually result in an extra SA die because you lose 2 levels of effective Rogue levels with Swordsage, so you could lose one more and still make 17/20 effective Rogue levels. NSE1 gives you a SA die, doesn't it?

As far as weapons, I'd either go duel short swords and TWF for max SA damage, or keep spiked chain since its the only Shadow Hand weapon with reach, and reach is godly.

[hex0]

I would consider that if I could take back my level 2 choice, but I'm stuck with it.


Since this is the case you might as well just suck up Swashbuckler and get some daring outlaw use out of it, then dip Swordsage when you can get assassin's stance. Spiked Chain isn't as necessary since you would be better off dual wielding Kukris etc.

[Keld Denar]

A kukiri isn't a Shadow Hand weapon, so he can't use it with Shadow Blade.

[Laplace's Demon]

I think if I dual wield anything, it has to be short swords, but that's probably too feat intensive, anyway. Also, I already sank the first level feat in imp. initiative, so my thought it that I might as well take the first level N. Enforcer just because it is an extra sneak attack die, and it's full base attack bonus. Assuming I do the swordsage dip (or even swordsage levels at all), what other feats do you guys think I should go for (after daring outlaw and shadow blade)? I feel like Combat Reflexes sounds like a requirement for someone who uses a spiked chain and has a high dex. Maybe mix in staggering strike?

EDIT: I reread what I said, and it doesn't necessarily have to be short swords, but I arrived at the conclusion that that would be my best option if I did Shadow Blade. If anyone has any great ideas for a two weapon fighting build under my constraints, I would love to hear them out.

[Laplace's Demon]

I think I'll end up just doing Swordsage as a dip at 9th level so I can pick up Assassin's stance and Shadow Blade. That seems like it'll optimize sneak attack dice and base attack bonus.

My current build of choice seems to be:
Rogue1/Swash3/Rogue+3/N. Enforcer1/Swordsage1/Swash+X

However, if I do that, once our campaign gets to epic levels (or if it does, since my DM said we might go as far as level 25), I'm going to start getting those critical based abilities from Swashbuckler which are not going to be very optimal with any weapon choice that works with Shadow Blade. Though, that actually doesn't bother me so much as the emptiness of the Swashbuckler class in general. I think I can just suck it up, and be sub optimal in that respect in order to get what I think will be a +7d6 sneak attack at 9th level while in Assassin's Stance.

Assuming I go this route, does anyone have any suggestions on keeping my will saves since they look like they are going to be terrible? Also, maybe I should consider advancing in another PrC instead of Swashbuckler at higher levels or something?

[vageta31]

You're spiked chain would be a wasted weapon with your lack of strength unfortunately. Even if you couldn't trip with it a spiked chain is still a great weapon in general. It does 2d4 damage, is 2h for str bonus, has 5 and 10 foot reach and is a shadowhand weapon. Used with shadow blade the 1.5 str + dex damage can really add up.

I'm using one with my pure swordsage right now and it's pretty nasty without even using it for tripping. I took shadow blade of course and my DM tried throwing me a curveball by messing with my stats.. except it backfired. By raising my str and lowering my dex I actually do more damage and don't have to worry about weapon finesse. Right now at level 5 I'm doing 2d4+10 so with flashing step, cloak of deception(or burning blade) and assassin's stance I have to break out the dice when I double hit. That usually kills most anything we've come across in one round.

[hex0]

I think I'll end up just doing Swordsage as a dip at 9th level so I can pick up Assassin's stance and Shadow Blade. That seems like it'll optimize sneak attack dice and base attack bonus.

My current build of choice seems to be:
Rogue1/Swash3/Rogue+3/N. Enforcer1/Swordsage1/Swash+X


You might want to just continue Warblade instead of Swashbuckler and skip nightsong enforcer. Warblade has INT synergy and actually has a lot of class features (unlike the Swashbuckler). Swashbuckler would get you the crit abilities at the same time that most monsters are immune to them anyway...

If you are worried about the Will saves, you could go into Spellthief. In my games Daring Outlaw stacks with Rogue, Psychic Rogue, and Spellthief as well...so that might be an option too. Since your DM allows Carmendine Monk to work for INT, it would probably be ok. Edit: It also stacks for Spellgrace in my games.

[Laplace's Demon]

You're spiked chain would be a wasted weapon with your lack of strength unfortunately. Even if you couldn't trip with it a spiked chain is still a great weapon in general. It does 2d4 damage, is 2h for str bonus, has 5 and 10 foot reach and is a shadowhand weapon. Used with shadow blade the 1.5 str + dex damage can really add up.

I'm using one with my pure swordsage right now and it's pretty nasty without even using it for tripping. I took shadow blade of course and my DM tried throwing me a curveball by messing with my stats.. except it backfired. By raising my str and lowering my dex I actually do more damage and don't have to worry about weapon finesse. Right now at level 5 I'm doing 2d4+10 so with flashing step, cloak of deception(or burning blade) and assassin's stance I have to break out the dice when I double hit. That usually kills most anything we've come across in one round.

So it sounds like you are saying I shouldn't takes EWP(Spiked Chain), but it also sounds like you are saying I should? If you don't think I should, could you recommend a different option?


You might want to just continue Warblade instead of Swashbuckler and skip nightsong enforcer. Warblade has INT synergy and actually has a lot of class features (unlike the Swashbuckler). Swashbuckler would get you the crit abilities at the same time that most monsters are immune to them anyway...

If you are worried about the Will saves, you could go into Spellthief. In my games Daring Outlaw stacks with Rogue, Psychic Rogue, and Spellthief as well...so that might be an option too. Since your DM allows Carmendine Monk to work for INT, it would probably be ok. Edit: It also stacks for Spellgrace in my games.

Can you tell me what build you are suggesting in the first part of your reply? I see plenty of pros in taking Warblade, but if I do I can't take Swordsage because, like I said in my original post, I am limited by my DM to only 3 base classes and 3 prestige classes. If you are saying I should just take Warblade over Swordsage, do you think I should go for Shadow Blade, because that is definitely going to cost me some feats.

[hex0]

Can you tell me what build you are suggesting in the first part of your reply? I see plenty of pros in taking Warblade, but if I do I can't take Swordsage because, like I said in my original post, I am limited by my DM to only 3 base classes and 3 prestige classes. If you are saying I should just take Warblade over Swordsage, do you think I should go for Shadow Blade, because that is definitely going to cost me some feats.

Sorry, I garbled that about a bit. I was saying do Rogue/Swashbuckler/Warblade and just pick up Assassin's Stance through feats or dipping into a PRC that grants Shadow Hand stances like Master of Nine. (Though that is a bit feat intensive...) but you would get Dual Stance....

Edit: Basically you get more out of Warblade since, well, you get full BAB, d12 hit die, INT to lots of stuff.

[Laplace's Demon]

Wow, I just realized how awesome Master of Nine is, but it really is super feat intensive. I suppose I could find a prestige class that grants improved unarmed strike (if there are any)? I'd be able to qualify pretty early, actually, but I probably wouldn't even want to take my Master of Nine levels until later so I can get better maneuvers, right? I'm actually liking the idea of playing a Master of Nine, though, I would really need to think about the order in which I take levels and such. If I assume we are playing all the way to level 25, would I want to take my Master of Nine last five or what?

I'll try to find a PrC that gives imp. unarmed strike, and then I'll post back.

[Essence_of_War]

Wow, I just realized how awesome Master of Nine is, but it really is super feat intensive. I suppose I could find a prestige class that grants improved unarmed strike (if there are any)? I'd be able to qualify pretty early, actually, but I probably wouldn't even want to take my Master of Nine levels until later so I can get better maneuvers, right? I'm actually liking the idea of playing a Master of Nine, though, I would really need to think about the order in which I take levels and such. If I assume we are playing all the way to level 25, would I want to take my Master of Nine last five or what?


Yeah...because of its feat intensive-ness, the fact that several of the feats are borderline useless, AND the fact that unless it's your last 5 or so levels, you may be stuck with with a number of marginal maneuvers, it's often considered to be a trap.

Not sure about a prestige class, but a 2-level monk dip should be able to get you 3 of the pre-reqs (if you allow the UA variants).

[Laplace's Demon]

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of monk dips, especially cobra strike, but like I said, my DM is only allowing me to have three base classes. I think I'm just going to avoid Master of Nine for this campaign. I'll try to play one whenever I get around to playing a straight swordsage.

[hex0]

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of monk dips, especially cobra strike, but like I said, my DM is only allowing me to have three base classes. I think I'm just going to avoid Master of Nine for this campaign. I'll try to play one whenever I get around to playing a straight swordsage.

Sounds good.

So, going Rogue/Swash/Warblade and picking up Shadow Hand stuff via feats then? 2 of the Warblade bonus feats are requirements for Master of Nine, just throwing that out there...

I'm sure there PRCs that grant IUS, but I can't think of anything useful at the moment. Just Cipher Adept, which is horrible, and Battle Rager which isn't really your style.

[Laplace's Demon]

I think that sounds good, but it's really unfortunate I have to use two extra feats to get Shadow Blade, even if I'm definitely going to use it for the awesome Cloak of Deception and Assassin's Stance. Also, I already have imp. init, so I think I can only get one of the needed feats from Warblade bonus feats. I still feel like Swordsage would be more effective in terms of Shadow Blade, but I really like the idea of being able to Sapphire Nightmare Blade, cloak of deception, and Moment of Perfect Mind lots of times during combat.

[Darrin]

Wow, I just realized how awesome Master of Nine is, but it really is super feat intensive. I suppose I could find a prestige class that grants improved unarmed strike (if there are any)?


Dipping Monk, Unarmed Swordsage, Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium), or City Brawler Barbarian (Dragon #349) will give you Improved Unarmed Strike. As far as Prestige Classes... Martyred Champion of Ilmater (PGtF) gets it, but qualifying could be... problematic.

Some other dips to help get into Master of Nine:

Cloistered Cleric 1, Time Domain (Improved Initiative) and Shadow/Darkness Domain (Blind-Fight).

Monk 1, Cobra Strike variant fighting style (UA): Improved Unarmed Strike and Dodge.

Dragon Totem Barbarian 1 (UA), Blind-Fight



I'd be able to qualify pretty early, actually, but I probably wouldn't even want to take my Master of Nine levels until later so I can get better maneuvers, right? I'm actually liking the idea of playing a Master of Nine, though, I would really need to think about the order in which I take levels and such.


Master of Nine is a bit of a trap. If you know which maneuvers you really need, it's often much more expedient to just grab them via Martial Study/Martial Stance, rather than blowing 5-6 feats just to qualify for the PrC. If you're not going straight Warblade 20, Dual Stance may be worth it, though.

[Laplace's Demon]

Yeah, I already considered those dips, but like I said, the character is already level 2 with two different base classes, and my DM has limited us to 3 base classes for this campaign, so I can't really dip anymore base classes assuming I want to take Warblade or Swordsage (which I do). I'm pretty sure it'll be more productive to just use martial study and martial stance to grab Cloak of Deception and Assassin's stance. My only huge issue with that is that I'm only going to get to benefit from Shadow Blade while in Assassin's stance. I would actually appreciate some input on what stances you guys think I should pick from my Warblade levels. I figure I'll pick Hear the Air at some point, because that would be someone useful out of combat, I think.