Madara
2011-11-26, 08:11 PM
(Shamelessly copied from my post at WotC)
After spending a little more than a month working on a 3.5 necromancer(LN Cleric), my thoughts focused on the minions. The fact is, by the time you can create undead besides skeletons and zombies, you will have already tried creating an army. As pointed out on handbooks such as K's, Skeletons are better than Zombies. I think it would be good to start a resource for things to animate as skeletons or zombies. Three main types of undead army components exist. Bruisers/ Leaders, Mounts, and filler. Filler is going to be your basic skeleton, with some sort of bow or weapon. Bruisers/ Leaders are the things you bring with you everywhere, and usually do most of the work.
The d20 SRD: Skeletons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) and zombies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm)
The Pet Store: Determining what to animate.
Red-er means you don't care, Darker the blue, the better/ more important
In the world of skeletons:
Movement Modes- The more, the better. Especially Flight. Remember they only get flight if they flew magically.
Natural Armor- Skeletons lose whatever great natural armor they had.
Ability Scores: Dexterity for the great skeleton archers who get improved init and a dex increase. Strength for the skeleton bruisers. Everything else is lost
Hit Dice- The nice part about skeletons, they don't double HD. This means your 10+ HD group is full of skeletons. No need to worry about this.
Special attacks-Sorry kiddo, you keep none of these.
Special Qualities- "A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks." That leaves....almost nothing.
Subtypes- These can give you small benifits. One of the few things you can keep. Some restrictions apply.
Attacks- Strange wording here. Keep all proficiencies and natural attacks. The tricky part is that under attacks may be listed special attacks. Even if they are natural, we lose them.
In the bruiser world, fire giants are favored because of their fire subtype, Large size, and High Strength. This means a Skeleton Fire giant is immune to cold and fire. They also have an amazing amount of damage capability.
Fire Giant:15 HD for 31 str, Dex 9 and large size(reach+larger weapon), and Fire Subtype
Efreeti: 10HD for23 Str ,Dex 17 and Large size, Fire subtype, and fly 40ft. Perfect
Ettin: 10HD for 23 Str, Dex 8 and Large size, and Superior Two-Weapon Fighting
Umber Hulk:8HD for 23 Str, Dex 13, Large size and Burrow 20ft.
Bralani(Eladrin):6 HD for 18 Str, Dex 18, Med size and fly 100ft. Perfect
Mephits:3HD for Fly speeds, and Small size. The key here for low levels is that the natural weapons count as magic for overcoming damage reduction, they all have different elemental subtypes.
Wait, did I hear that right? Skeletons are known as great archers, but now we have a flying archer with fairly good dex. His HD are also low enough for the somewhat optimized necromancer! That's right folkes, an Efreeti is at least equal to an Ettin, maybe better depending on what you're looking for. Time to go even lower in levels. My suggestion is maybe take the Dijinni if you have to, but don't take the Janni. The Dijinni also has large size, less HD , but better dex than his cousin.
Skelton Mount(for the low levels)
With Nimble Bones, your created mount would have an extra 10ft. movement. Odds are you end up with a horse at best, easy to come by. BTW, Pounce is a special attack. That means that giant kitty skeleton won't teach the girl next door to play nice. For an animal, an elephant would be ideal, but that's CR eight and I don't think you'd still want it by the time you can kill it also, it kinda stands out(Hence the elephant in the room joke).
Dire animals are all the rage. Since it isn't your "Animal Companion", you don't have to deal w/ Mr. Tier 1 Druid's limited selection problem. All of the following animals are large size for mount purposes and practicality. If you have any versions of Corpsecrafter, your undead mount will be better than the base version of the Druid's pet.
Dire Wolf:6HD[/COLOR] for 50ft. move, 25 Str, and 15 Dex
Dire Boar: 7HD for 40 ft. move,27 Str, and 10 Dex
Dire Horse(MMII):8HD for 60ft. move[/COLOR], 22 Str, and 13 Dex
Deinonychus(Dinosaur): 4HD for 60ft. move, 19 Str, and 15 Dex
Diprotodon(Dinosaur)(Sandstorm): 9HD for 40ft. Move, 10ft. Burrow, 27 Str and10 Dex
Gambol(MMII): 8HD for 30ft. move,15ft. Climb,23 Str, and 18 Dex. Debatable if it keeps its Haste. If it does, this thing is extra blue.
Nightmare: 6HD for 18str 15Dex and Fly 90ft.(good- Note: make it a zombie to keep the 13 Natural armor and it flies magically, so you keep its flight.
Why is strength so important? Carrying capacity. Horrid Animals are great, even better than dire. But have fun trying to find one that doesn't have a druid owner. Unless you kill them both, animate one as a good undead(the druid) and his companion as a skeleton.
Others that may be campaign/ location/ luck dependent.
Forest Sloth(MMII): 14HD for 40ft. move, 40ft. brachiation, 60ft. Climb,25 Str and 20 Dex
this thing has a high CR, but as a mount, it can get you anywhere on land. Just strap on really tight. May be a little overpriced HD wise, but depends how many HD you can animate. Also, it keeps all of its movement modes.
Fleshraker Dinosaur: ITS A TRAP! Not so great as a skeleton.
Zombies are like everyone's cousin who is obsessed with football. They can be extremely enthusiastic, but are rather slow and limited.
Zombie hunting:
Speed: It's nice, you can keep flight but you get clumsy flight instead. Unless you want some sad attempt at a flying mount, don't worry about this.
HD: :frown:It doubles, so you're rather limited. At least this makes them good line men. Stick 'em in the front and let them take the damage instead.
Abilities: Same as earlier, but Strength and Dex increase.
Partial actions only, and toughness...
Natural Armor: The ONLY thing zombies really have going for them. Get some good natural armor, it increases. Plus, you add the double HD. They're like living walls! That attack(occasionally).
Your options are limited. But, some still exist.
Hydra: Standard action for all attacks from its heads.
I would like some other suggestions on what other players find to be good skeletons or zombies. Please leave some note of why.
After spending a little more than a month working on a 3.5 necromancer(LN Cleric), my thoughts focused on the minions. The fact is, by the time you can create undead besides skeletons and zombies, you will have already tried creating an army. As pointed out on handbooks such as K's, Skeletons are better than Zombies. I think it would be good to start a resource for things to animate as skeletons or zombies. Three main types of undead army components exist. Bruisers/ Leaders, Mounts, and filler. Filler is going to be your basic skeleton, with some sort of bow or weapon. Bruisers/ Leaders are the things you bring with you everywhere, and usually do most of the work.
The d20 SRD: Skeletons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) and zombies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm)
The Pet Store: Determining what to animate.
Red-er means you don't care, Darker the blue, the better/ more important
In the world of skeletons:
Movement Modes- The more, the better. Especially Flight. Remember they only get flight if they flew magically.
Natural Armor- Skeletons lose whatever great natural armor they had.
Ability Scores: Dexterity for the great skeleton archers who get improved init and a dex increase. Strength for the skeleton bruisers. Everything else is lost
Hit Dice- The nice part about skeletons, they don't double HD. This means your 10+ HD group is full of skeletons. No need to worry about this.
Special attacks-Sorry kiddo, you keep none of these.
Special Qualities- "A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks." That leaves....almost nothing.
Subtypes- These can give you small benifits. One of the few things you can keep. Some restrictions apply.
Attacks- Strange wording here. Keep all proficiencies and natural attacks. The tricky part is that under attacks may be listed special attacks. Even if they are natural, we lose them.
In the bruiser world, fire giants are favored because of their fire subtype, Large size, and High Strength. This means a Skeleton Fire giant is immune to cold and fire. They also have an amazing amount of damage capability.
Fire Giant:15 HD for 31 str, Dex 9 and large size(reach+larger weapon), and Fire Subtype
Efreeti: 10HD for23 Str ,Dex 17 and Large size, Fire subtype, and fly 40ft. Perfect
Ettin: 10HD for 23 Str, Dex 8 and Large size, and Superior Two-Weapon Fighting
Umber Hulk:8HD for 23 Str, Dex 13, Large size and Burrow 20ft.
Bralani(Eladrin):6 HD for 18 Str, Dex 18, Med size and fly 100ft. Perfect
Mephits:3HD for Fly speeds, and Small size. The key here for low levels is that the natural weapons count as magic for overcoming damage reduction, they all have different elemental subtypes.
Wait, did I hear that right? Skeletons are known as great archers, but now we have a flying archer with fairly good dex. His HD are also low enough for the somewhat optimized necromancer! That's right folkes, an Efreeti is at least equal to an Ettin, maybe better depending on what you're looking for. Time to go even lower in levels. My suggestion is maybe take the Dijinni if you have to, but don't take the Janni. The Dijinni also has large size, less HD , but better dex than his cousin.
Skelton Mount(for the low levels)
With Nimble Bones, your created mount would have an extra 10ft. movement. Odds are you end up with a horse at best, easy to come by. BTW, Pounce is a special attack. That means that giant kitty skeleton won't teach the girl next door to play nice. For an animal, an elephant would be ideal, but that's CR eight and I don't think you'd still want it by the time you can kill it also, it kinda stands out(Hence the elephant in the room joke).
Dire animals are all the rage. Since it isn't your "Animal Companion", you don't have to deal w/ Mr. Tier 1 Druid's limited selection problem. All of the following animals are large size for mount purposes and practicality. If you have any versions of Corpsecrafter, your undead mount will be better than the base version of the Druid's pet.
Dire Wolf:6HD[/COLOR] for 50ft. move, 25 Str, and 15 Dex
Dire Boar: 7HD for 40 ft. move,27 Str, and 10 Dex
Dire Horse(MMII):8HD for 60ft. move[/COLOR], 22 Str, and 13 Dex
Deinonychus(Dinosaur): 4HD for 60ft. move, 19 Str, and 15 Dex
Diprotodon(Dinosaur)(Sandstorm): 9HD for 40ft. Move, 10ft. Burrow, 27 Str and10 Dex
Gambol(MMII): 8HD for 30ft. move,15ft. Climb,23 Str, and 18 Dex. Debatable if it keeps its Haste. If it does, this thing is extra blue.
Nightmare: 6HD for 18str 15Dex and Fly 90ft.(good- Note: make it a zombie to keep the 13 Natural armor and it flies magically, so you keep its flight.
Why is strength so important? Carrying capacity. Horrid Animals are great, even better than dire. But have fun trying to find one that doesn't have a druid owner. Unless you kill them both, animate one as a good undead(the druid) and his companion as a skeleton.
Others that may be campaign/ location/ luck dependent.
Forest Sloth(MMII): 14HD for 40ft. move, 40ft. brachiation, 60ft. Climb,25 Str and 20 Dex
this thing has a high CR, but as a mount, it can get you anywhere on land. Just strap on really tight. May be a little overpriced HD wise, but depends how many HD you can animate. Also, it keeps all of its movement modes.
Fleshraker Dinosaur: ITS A TRAP! Not so great as a skeleton.
Zombies are like everyone's cousin who is obsessed with football. They can be extremely enthusiastic, but are rather slow and limited.
Zombie hunting:
Speed: It's nice, you can keep flight but you get clumsy flight instead. Unless you want some sad attempt at a flying mount, don't worry about this.
HD: :frown:It doubles, so you're rather limited. At least this makes them good line men. Stick 'em in the front and let them take the damage instead.
Abilities: Same as earlier, but Strength and Dex increase.
Partial actions only, and toughness...
Natural Armor: The ONLY thing zombies really have going for them. Get some good natural armor, it increases. Plus, you add the double HD. They're like living walls! That attack(occasionally).
Your options are limited. But, some still exist.
Hydra: Standard action for all attacks from its heads.
I would like some other suggestions on what other players find to be good skeletons or zombies. Please leave some note of why.