Potions

[Zaq]

So, let's talk about potions.

Conceptually, I love potions. I love that anyone can use them. I love that they're both limited (only third level spells and under, yada yada) and really, really versatile (there are a hell of a lot of spells of 3rd level and under). I love that you can have the whole "dunno what this one does, but I'm desperate; bottoms up!" thing where you find them unlabeled (this one's easily defeated if the players care or vehemently object, but the concept's there), and I just love all the fluff and imagery associated with 'em. They're fun.

That said, they also kind of blow. They're the most expensive form of consumable item, spell for spell. They're unwieldy to use in combat, since it usually takes a move action to draw 'em and a standard to drink 'em. The low CL they tend to have sharply limits just what kind of spells will be actually useful once they're brewed into little vials of bubbling magic. A lot of players have a really difficult time with the whole "consumable mindset" thing (I know plenty of players who just refuse to use anything consumable—hell, I'm guilty of it myself on occasion, though I try not to be. I blame growing up playing games like Earthbound, but I digress), and wouldn't use potions even if you gave them out for free. That last one's not limited to potions, but it still factors in.

Anyway, what can we do about all this? What changes would be necessary to make potions, well, viable, and something that most adventurers would have at least three or four of at any given time? (Think about your current character. How many potions has he or she ever bought?) Reducing the cost is a good step, but that kind of makes them bump into scrolls a little bit (of course, that's not a total dealbreaker . . . scrolls can still target other creatures, for instance). What else could we do to make potions something that most characters would actually want to buy? What design changes would be necessary to make them be on par with scrolls and wands in terms of being something you'd actually use? I'm thinking that it might work to say that the CL of a potion is equal to the HD of the imbiber, up to a certain maximum (fluffed as saying that the potion interacts so intimately with your own system that you have a bigger effect on it than you would on, say, a scroll), thereby making them scale a little better. Any other thoughts? What else could we do to make potions worthwhile?

[Flickerdart]

You can make potions of higher-level spells with a Faerun PrC, so that's something, and an Eberron PrC can make potions that can be used on other creatures. So making them cost as much as scrolls kind of bumps scrolls off the market except when wizards are concerned.

As for using up actions, I remember a post about a Barbarian who would carry a potion of something or other in his mouth and crack the bottle when he needed the spell. Having some other ways to "ready" a potion (drinking helmet?) might make them more useful.

[gbprime]

Well the Delay Potion feat makes them more awesome. If you could house rule an item that gave the wearer 3 uses of Delay Potion per day, then you can pre-drink them. Still expensive, though.

[FearlessGnome]

As for using up actions, I remember a post about a Barbarian who would carry a potion of something or other in his mouth and crack the bottle when he needed the spell. Having some other ways to "ready" a potion (drinking helmet?) might make them more useful.Complete Mage has the feat Delay Potion. Drink it now, activate as a swift action within CON hours.

...Swordsages. Everywhere.

[Zaq]

Complete Mage has the feat Delay Potion. Drink it now, activate as a swift action within CON hours.

...Swordsages. Everywhere.

Huh. CON hours, you say? I'd only skimmed the feat before, and for some bizarre reason I had thought it was CON rounds, which makes it, well, useless. CON hours is actually pretty good. Maybe not worth a feat (WHY did they make feats so precious? Sigh), but being able to pre-load buffs to use as swift actions is, well, actually pretty sweet.

The fact that it's only one potion at once kinda sucks, though. Making it CON potions at once (or level/3 potions, or something) would be much better.

In fact, that'd be a cool houserule to make potions better. Everyone has Delay Potion for free, and they can have CON mod potions in their system at once. Nifty. Add in the whole "CL of a potion = your HD" (assuming we find a good max) thing, and potions would actually become useful, I think.

[Flickerdart]

I think potion miscibility (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b) is also worth looking at.

[Psyren]

I think potion miscibility (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b) is also worth looking at.

I'm a firm believer that WotC comes up with their most interesting rules on April Fool's Day. It must be a magical day for them for some reason.

[twas_Brillig]

Huh. CON hours, you say? I'd only skimmed the feat before, and for some bizarre reason I had thought it was CON rounds, which makes it, well, useless. CON hours is actually pretty good. Maybe not worth a feat (WHY did they make feats so precious? Sigh), but being able to pre-load buffs to use as swift actions is, well, actually pretty sweet.

The fact that it's only one potion at once kinda sucks, though. Making it CON potions at once (or level/3 potions, or something) would be much better.

In fact, that'd be a cool houserule to make potions better. Everyone has Delay Potion for free, and they can have CON mod potions in their system at once. Nifty. Add in the whole "CL of a potion = your HD" (assuming we find a good max) thing, and potions would actually become useful, I think.

There was...some series (or single book?) I'm blanking on that worked its potions like that. Basically, there's an arm of the government (Wolf Takers?) that spies on the world below by way of high-altitude weather balloon telescopes. Since the weather up there is frightful, the watchers rely on potions to keep awake, keep blood circulating and improve their vision. There's a passage when these guys are introduced that talks about how anyone who's gotten experience up there knows how to keep potions flowing in just the right way, above and beyond the recommended dosages, to actually stay effective.

If anyone can remember the name of that series (steampunk, may contain giant crabs and insect horrors), assuming I didn't hallucinate the whole thing, that might be another place to start for potion homebrewing.

[Fax Celestis]

You can make potions of higher-level spells with a Faerun PrC, so that's something, and an Eberron PrC can make potions that can be used on other creatures. So making them cost as much as scrolls kind of bumps scrolls off the market except when wizards are concerned.

Alchemist Savant's spellvials have a different cost/xp than potions.

[Zale]

A class that focused on increasing the effectiveness of the potions they use could be interesting... :smallconfused:

[nedz]

I think potion miscibility (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b) is also worth looking at.I'm a firm believer that WotC comes up with their most interesting rules on April Fool's Day. It must be a magical day for them for some reason.

Standard rules in 2E, introduced by Dragon Mag late in 1E, but I digress.

I'm terrible for never using them, though I'll burn through wands without too much concern (well there was that Wand of Cure Light Wounds I spotted on my high level Bards character sheet with 47 charges - He'd had it ages, but we had an NPC cleric in the party.).

Potions are very useful if you're being stealthy, or have no other means of healing.

[MesiDoomstalker]

In one game without a healer (before we discovered awesomness of wands) we had a NPC who made special potions. They cost 50% more but had several delayed effects. The standard Cure Light Wounds would heal 1d8+1immidiatly, 1d8+5 1 minute later and 4d8+20 1 hour later. More economical than wands and we forgoed it once we figured out wands are better healbots but its something you can start with. Double the price, triple the output over an extended period.

[Elric VIII]

I once DMed a game with no real casters, I helped the players out by instating the following rules in order to make potions viable:

Potions have multiple uses, prices are unchanged (3 for level 1 spells, 5 for level 2, 7 for level 3).

The caster level for potions is adjusted to at least 1/2 your ECL upon consumption (the same potion is more powerful at higher levels).

[Cieyrin]

Huh. CON hours, you say? I'd only skimmed the feat before, and for some bizarre reason I had thought it was CON rounds, which makes it, well, useless. CON hours is actually pretty good. Maybe not worth a feat (WHY did they make feats so precious? Sigh), but being able to pre-load buffs to use as swift actions is, well, actually pretty sweet.

The fact that it's only one potion at once kinda sucks, though. Making it CON potions at once (or level/3 potions, or something) would be much better.

In fact, that'd be a cool houserule to make potions better. Everyone has Delay Potion for free, and they can have CON mod potions in their system at once. Nifty. Add in the whole "CL of a potion = your HD" (assuming we find a good max) thing, and potions would actually become useful, I think.

Make Delay Potion a skill trick based off of Autohypnosis. Bam, it doesn't cost a feat but is limited by other costs. :smallcool:

[Zeta Kai]

A class that focused on increasing the effectiveness of the potions they use could be interesting... :smallconfused:

Like this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11443211#post11443211)? Hmmm? Yes?

[Diefje]

I sometimes use em at lower levels. It's useful for anyone to be able to heal up the healbot if he's out by stray arrows when you're lvl 1. But it's mostly a "we don't have wands or scrolls" option.

I think they were invented to get those pesky mundanes to stop bugging all the clerics and wizards. Go buy a potion and leave me alone!

[Jeraa]

I prefer potions for personal buffs and utility things (like remove blindness/deafness). Why force a party caster to memorize a spell he probably wouldn't of to begin with, just for me? Especially when I can get it cheaply with a potion. Let the casters use their slots how they want to, or for mass versions of the spell that affects the whole party. Leave individual buffs up to the other members.

(Casters in my group rarely buffed people. It did happen, but if you wanted a buff, you pretty much had to bring it along with you and not wait for a caster to do it for you.)

[Cieyrin]

I sometimes use em at lower levels. It's useful for anyone to be able to heal up the healbot if he's out by stray arrows when you're lvl 1. But it's mostly a "we don't have wands or scrolls" option.

I think they were invented to get those pesky mundanes to stop bugging all the clerics and wizards. Go buy a potion and leave me alone!

Before 3rd's standardization, they were useful for anybody, especially after the cleric ran out of healing for the day. Also made for faster buffing, since characters who can't cast can drink a potion to get an effect up while the casters lay down buffs of their own. Handy! :smallwink:

[Fax Celestis]

I allow non-personal effects to be potioned, and multitarget spells in potions are basically grenades. An AoE burst like haste centers the effect wherever you throw it and indiscriminately hastes the closest targets until it can't get any more. While this does mean you can potentially haste the enemy with a bad throw, it also means that the party crafter can make a couple of haste grenades, give them to other party members, and then prep something else in his 3rd level slots the next day. However, it also means that a spellcaster will be able to utilize the effect better than a spell grenade, since they can potentially drop a multi-target buff spell into the middle of mixed melee and not buff the opponent.

[Zale]

Like this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11443211#post11443211)? Hmmm? Yes?

Interesting, but I was talking more along the lines of taking a normal potion and squeezing more an effect out of.

Like the Delay Potion thing, or extending the duration of a potion, or making a healing potion heal more or heal later..

[Zeta Kai]

Interesting, but I was talking more along the lines of taking a normal potion and squeezing more an effect out of.

Like the Delay Potion thing, or extending the duration of a potion, or making a healing potion heal more or heal later..

Well, a 10th-level Alchemist can make a potion of a 6th-level spell. In 1 hour.

Potion of repulsion? Yes, please. Potion of true seeing? Yes, please. Potion of transmutation? OMG! Yes, please!

[Psyren]

Well, a 10th-level Alchemist can make a potion of a 6th-level spell. In 1 hour.

Potion of repulsion? Yes, please. Potion of true seeing? Yes, please. Potion of transmutation? OMG! Yes, please!

Did you mean Transformation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/transformation) for that last one?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Did you mean Transformation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/transformation) for that last one?

No no, a potion of Transmutation, a potion that has all spells from the Transmutation school (that is legal of course) in one supercharged liquid. :smalltongue:

[Zale]

All of them?

You would be a flying brick with superhuman intellegence and speed and the ability to shapeshift...

:smalleek:

[ericgrau]

I answer question with question: What else do non-casters do during the buffing round? Some cheap level 1 potions like protection from evil are handy. Or shillelagh oil is awesome too. In an emergency they're well worth the cost to save your life from the cure X wounds to a more tricky invisibility or similar. Not something you use every day, but still cheaper than a resurrection. The trick is to buy the ones you can afford at your level, not the ones you can't afford. Simple. All my characters always pick up several potions. My casters tend to get scrolls instead, but even then I might want a potion or two from a different spellcasting class.

Consumables in general in D&D tend to be ludicrously underrated. Players hate them for disappearing (oh noez my shinies are gone), but the fact is D&D combats are so short that getting expendables tends to be cheaper over the life of an entire campaign than getting permanent items. And that means you can afford better stuff. Basically if you do something every single round a permanent item might be worth it, but the rarer the action becomes the better deal a consumable becomes.

[nedz]

No no, a potion of Transmutation, a potion that has all spells from the Transmutation school (that is legal of course) in one supercharged liquid. :smalltongue:
Some of them are mutually exclusive - what order do they go off in ?

[Flickerdart]

Some of them are mutually exclusive - what order do they go off in ?
Alphabetical.

[ericgrau]

Sadly many of those would simply negate eachother, or perhaps you could attempt will saves against the bad ones to see how many benefits don't get overridden.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Some of them are mutually exclusive - what order do they go off in ?

Simultaneously! :smalltongue: I realize that some will cancel each other out but thats not the point.

EDIT: Ninja'd! But it would be funny to be a Haste'd Flesh-to-Stone'd statue!

[Flickerdart]

Simultaneously! :smalltongue: I realize that some will cancel each other out but thats not the point.

EDIT: Ninja'd! But it would be funny to be a Haste'd Flesh-to-Stone'd statue!
You could be the fastest stationary object in the world.

[Rubik]

Psionic tattoos are much better. They don't require an action to pull out, they can augment REALLY well, and they can have self-only as a target since 'you' is a single creature. Also, you can have offensive stuff as well, though it does require the crawling tattoo to make a touch attack (and its stats suck, though they're doable for most really large creatures).

Also. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a)

[Psyren]

Soul Crystals (MoI pgs. 107-108) work great as "potions" too. You can store powers you know of any level, they last hours/level (2 hours/level extended) and they can be used by anyone. The user is treated as the manifester, except they use your stats, so you can pass around all kinds of buffs (or even offensive/utility powers) that could never be put in a potion bottle normally and have them function at maximum ML. Best of all, you can put 2x your ML worth of PP in each one, letting you create double-use "potions" - or more. And all without spending a single point of XP or gold.

[Jeraa]

But psionic tattoos are also limited - you can only have 20 on you at once. You can carry an unlimited number of potions. Potions are weightless (though an empty potion vial weights 1/10th a pound...)

[KoboldCleric]

In my games I make the brew potion feat a general feat with no prerequisites and house-rule out any need on the crafter's part to know the spell in question; every player who takes the feat is treated is having a caster level equal to their character level with regard to potion making and is able to access spell levels at the same rate as the bard (spell level-character level: 0-1, 1-2, 2-4, 3-7). Price in gp is is 25×cl + 50×spell level.

I've always thought of potions as the perfect way to makes minor magic available to non-casting classes.

[Psyren]

But psionic tattoos are also limited - you can only have 20 on you at once. You can carry an unlimited number of potions. Potions are weightless (though an empty potion vial weights 1/10th a pound...)

Unless you're a potion merchant, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html) will you ever need that many?

[Jeraa]

Unless you're a potion merchant, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html) will you ever need that many?

Yes. If it is something you use all the time (like healing potions), you need to carry several. Then having potions for certain situations, just in case, can quickly add up. You'll want several healing potions, maybe a few Resist Energy potions. And its always a good idea to have at least one each of Cure Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Water Breathing, and probably a Remove Disease. And then there are the buffing potions (like Bulls Strength, assuming you don't have an ability boosting item already). A potion of Protection from Evil (or similar) can come in very handy. Melee characters would probably want a few Enlarge Person potions. Haste as well. Lesser Restoration or two to heal ability damage (and they also remove fatigue, so if you need to force march to get somewhere, you'll be good).

I can see a properly prepared character easily going over 20 potions. Sure, you can rely on a caster for those same buffs, but every buff the caster prepares is one less spell thats available to damage or otherwise take out an enemy. And if your caster goes down before he can buff you, your just out of luck.

[Cieyrin]

Soul Crystals (MoI pgs. 107-108) work great as "potions" too. You can store powers you know of any level, they last hours/level (2 hours/level extended) and they can be used by anyone. The user is treated as the manifester, except they use your stats, so you can pass around all kinds of buffs (or even offensive/utility powers) that could never be put in a potion bottle normally and have them function at maximum ML. Best of all, you can put 2x your ML worth of PP in each one, letting you create double-use "potions" - or more. And all without spending a single point of XP or gold.

There's a 2nd level spell in Spell Compendium, Quick Potion, that does the same for no XP or gold. Don't remember the duration off-hand but I expect it's hours/level, so that's not exactly a good metric for viability. Dorje of Soul Crystal, Wand of Quick Potion, similar effects, though I think Soul Crystal is much higher.

[Psyren]

Yes. If it is something you use all the time (like healing potions), you need to carry several.

Healing potions are ridiculously ineffective for their cost, even if someone in the party is making them for you. If you're buying them in the store, forget it. Do yourself a favor and get a Healing Belt instead, and/or some Blessed Bandages. Resist Energy is similarly a waste of money since potions always have minimum CL (so you'll never go above 10.) That second point applies to buffs too (e.g. your aforementioned Bull's Strength) resulting in potions of many buffs not even being worth the standard action to consume them.

B/D, Curse and Poison/Disease I agree can come in handy; but you're highly unlikely to need an entire satchel of those.


There's a 2nd level spell in Spell Compendium, Quick Potion, that does the same for no XP or gold. Don't remember the duration off-hand but I expect it's hours/level, so that's not exactly a good metric for viability. Dorje of Soul Crystal, Wand of Quick Potion, similar effects, though I think Soul Crystal is much higher.

Quick Potion is similar but much less powerful, as it explicitly states that only spells eligible for potion-izing can be used. Soul Crystal works with any power; I could hand out crystals of Schism or Metamorphosis for instance. Furthermore, Soul Crystals use your ML at the time of casting while potions use minimum CL. Finally, QPs are much slower to make (1 minute each + the spell to be stored, compared to SC's 1 round each.)

You're correct though that Soul Crystal is higher (being a 7th-level power.) And in case I wasn't clear, Soul Crystal has no XP or GP cost either.

[Jeraa]

Healing potions are ridiculously ineffective for their cost, even if someone in the party is making them for you. If you're buying them in the store, forget it. Do yourself a favor and get a Healing Belt instead, and/or some Blessed Bandages. Resist Energy is similarly a waste of money since potions always have minimum CL (so you'll never go above 10.) That second point applies to buffs too (e.g. your aforementioned Bull's Strength) resulting in potions of many buffs not even being worth the standard action to consume them.

B/D, Curse and Poison/Disease I agree can come in handy; but you're highly unlikely to need an entire satchel of those.


We only ever play core-only, so no healing belts or blessed bandages. IT doesn't matter how inefficient healing potions are if they are the only thing between you and death. Every little bit helps. While potions do have a minimum caster level, they can be made at any caster level. The last third of the potion list in the DMG are potions crafted above the minimum caster level, including CL 11 resist energy potions for 30 resistance, or caster level 20 magic vestment, greater magic weapon, and greater magic fang potions. So while your limited to 3rd level spells or less, they can be any caster level you want. And true, the buffs at minimum CL would probably only last a minute, but most combats are over before that. Its a rare combat that takes over 10 rounds.

[Psyren]

We only ever play core-only, so no healing belts or blessed bandages.

If you're in core-only, you won't have psionic tattoos either, so the whole discussion is moot from the get-go.

[Zale]

Psionic Tattoos do get some points for style. In my book anyway.

Wait- can you augment powers for the tattoos?

[Jeraa]

If you're in core-only, you won't have psionic tattoos either, so the whole discussion is moot from the get-go.

Though officially it isn't, we've always considered the XPH as core. So yeah, we do allow more then the official core books. Its core + XPH (though XPH is hardly ever used). And no, the discussion wasn't moot. You said:


Unless you're a potion merchant, will you ever need that many?

"That many" being 20, the maximum number of tattoos you could have. So the question was, "Will you ever need more then 20 potions?" And yes, a properly prepared character could indeed have over 20 potions.

[Psyren]

The fact that you're in core-only doesn't keep potions from being a poor choice. It just means you don't have as many other options available. But you still have wands, so get someone to be the wand-monkey instead. You're unlikely to need a pile of healing potions to get you through most fights, and once you're out of combat wands can patch you up the rest of the way.

Also, retrieving a potion to drink it requires two actions, both of which provoke AoO. Just one of those attacks landing can cancel out any benefit the potion would have provided, never mind both, and that's assuming they don't simply target the bottle with the second one.

So dumping so much of your wealth into potions that each person ends up with more than 20 seems foolish to me.

[Fax Celestis]

Psionic Tattoos do get some points for style. In my book anyway.

Wait- can you augment powers for the tattoos?

Nope.


Scribing and Transferring Tattoos

The manifester level of a psionic tattoo is the minimum level required to manifest the scribed power. A psionic tattoo can contain only powers of 3rd level or lower.
extratext

[Cieyrin]

The fact that you're in core-only doesn't keep potions from being a poor choice. It just means you don't have as many other options available. But you still have wands, so get someone to be the wand-monkey instead. You're unlikely to need a pile of healing potions to get you through most fights, and once you're out of combat wands can patch you up the rest of the way.

Also, retrieving a potion to drink it requires two actions, both of which provoke AoO. Just one of those attacks landing can cancel out any benefit the potion would have provided, never mind both, and that's assuming they don't simply target the bottle with the second one.

So dumping so much of your wealth into potions that each person ends up with more than 20 seems foolish to me.

I wouldn't use them in combat exactly for that reason. Use 'em for pre-combat buffing, like that Resist Energy and Shield of Faith.

Alternatively, the Oil Chamber can allow oils to be used swiftly, so GMW, the other GMW and MV can go on with just a Swift. Oil of Ghostly Reload in an Oil Chamber-equipped crossbow can work wonderfully, as opposed to investing in UMD if you're not Cha focused or have it as a class skill and just using a Wand Chamber.

[Psyren]

Oil Chambers and Wand Chambers aren't core either.

The issue is that when you're in core, potions and oils suck. The things that make them better are outside core - which gives you better options for your WBL than potions and oils, hence they still suck. (Just by comparison this time.)

[Zaq]

Oil Chambers and Wand Chambers aren't core either.

The issue is that when you're in core, potions and oils suck. The things that make them better are outside core - which gives you better options for your WBL than potions and oils, hence they still suck. (Just by comparison this time.)

Which brings us to the point of this thread. What would change this situation? What's the smallest fundamental change (or set of changes) we could make to the whole potion ruleset to make potions and oils not suck (either in an absolute or comparative sense)? In short, what makes them suck, and what changes would remove that suckiness?

[candycorn]

Which brings us to the point of this thread. What would change this situation? What's the smallest fundamental change (or set of changes) we could make to the whole potion ruleset to make potions and oils not suck (either in an absolute or comparative sense)? In short, what makes them suck, and what changes would remove that suckiness?

Triple their price, and make them refill daily. Essentially, they become 1/day items. That gives them greater utility.

Alternately? Include the non-core support for potions. That is a set of changes that would make them better in core.

[Psyren]

Which brings us to the point of this thread. What would change this situation? What's the smallest fundamental change (or set of changes) we could make to the whole potion ruleset to make potions and oils not suck (either in an absolute or comparative sense)? In short, what makes them suck, and what changes would remove that suckiness?

Core potions/oils:
- Cost too much to make for what you get
- Have too limited a range of eligible spells
- Require too many actions to use effectively in combat, the time when you'd want to use a potion the most

[panaikhan]

I'm sure I've seen a potion variant that is simply a breakable object. To activate the magic, you simply break the ~whatever-it-is~.

I remember using this variant to make Fireball "mines" from clay tiles...

[Tyndmyr]

As for using up actions, I remember a post about a Barbarian who would carry a potion of something or other in his mouth and crack the bottle when he needed the spell. Having some other ways to "ready" a potion (drinking helmet?) might make them more useful.

I believe that's an old Dragon Mag item.

I allow a custom non-magical item(price: 1500 GP) that holds three potions, and will automatically inject them into you if the appropriate button is slapped. Still takes a standard action to use, but does not provoke, and does not require drawing potions.

This helps substantially to make combat use of potions a realistic option. Otherwise, hands tend to be full of weapons, AoOs would do more damage than healing potions fix, etc, etc. They're still not fantastic, mind you, but people do occasionally buy them now.

[Runestar]

There's a feat in complete mage which lets you delay the effects of a potion by up to 1 hour (and you can activate it as a free action). Useful for insta-buffing.

Also, you can take a cue from the belt of healing in MIC (which is basically a reuseable potion). Some potions are just way too expensive for their benefit. You can consider making them into magical gear useable 1/day?

[Psyren]

I'm sure I've seen a potion variant that is simply a breakable object. To activate the magic, you simply break the ~whatever-it-is~.

There are rules for that in CArc, but they follow the same rules as potions - this means no tiles of fireball, though for a non-consumption method I could easily see relaxing the restrictions on which spells can be stored in item form.

[some guy]

Well, you could use the handy haversack to remove at least the AoO to retrieve a potion.
Maybe a houserule in the spirit of the rule,

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.
but replace 'draw a weapon' with 'retrieve a potion'.

Perhaps making drinking a potion a move action instead of a standard action?

[Rubik]

Nope.In the SRD it says:


The manifester level for a standard psionic tattoo is the minimum manifester level needed to manifest the power (unless otherwise specified).

So I'm pretty sure that only goes for default tattoos. You can make them higher, but most don't.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Well, you could use the handy haversack to remove at least the AoO to retrieve a potion.
Maybe a houserule in the spirit of the rule,

but replace 'draw a weapon' with 'retrieve a potion'.

Perhaps making drinking a potion a move action instead of a standard action?

This is generally how my group plays. Anything that would be equivalent of drawing a weapon can be done in tandem with a move action. You woud provoke 2 AoO but since most enemies don't have combat reflexes thats hardly an issue. We also ruled you could draw up to 3 potions per empty hand with a given move action and subsequently down 3 potions as a standard. Or 6 as a full-round if you already have 6 in your hands. So you couldn't drink more than 6 in a round, or 3 if you have to draw them but its better action economy. We also allowed potion cocktails but there was a % roll that the weaker spell failed. I forget the rolls but the greater the difference in power (spell level and CL), the greater chance the weaker effect(s). Also 2 greater effects of equal power would have greater chance of failure than 2 lesser effects of equal power.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

some guy: My group also plays that you can ready a potion just like drawing a weapon, as a move action or a free action while moving. This assumes characters store their potions somewhere easy to reach, which makes sense as who wants their emergency healing to be out of easy reach? Also, if you can pull out spell components or ammo as a free action, why not treat pulling out a conveniently placed vial likewise?

[Fax Celestis]

In the SRD it says: So I'm pretty sure that only goes for default tattoos. You can make them higher, but most don't.

My quote's from the SRD too. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicTattoos.htm)

[Rubik]

My quote's from the SRD too. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicTattoos.htm)The last sentence on the page indicates that they don't NEED to be minimum ML. Seems to me as though they CAN be higher but usually aren't.

[Qwertystop]

Well, this certainly looks cool.

I wondered where the no-more-than-three-potions rule in the book Epic came from.

[ericgrau]

Potions and don't need to be minimum caster level, and there are even examples on the random potion table of very high caster level potions. Likewise "The manifester level for a standard psionic tattoo is the minimum manifester level needed to manifest the power (unless otherwise specified)."

On the matter of potions vs. non-core items, it isn't so that potions are obsolete without the non-core items. They are still better than nothing, still cheaper than resurrection. Let's say monsters are doing 40 damage to you each round and a potion heals 20. 20 is low, so what. If you're at 30 hp the potion will still save your life. You cannot possibly defeat the monsters yourself this way but that's not the point; the point is to save yourself while your party defeats them. Or there are trickier options like invisibility and such.

Likewise in the buffing round a 50 gp potion is very affordable (and later a 300 gp potion becomes cheap), and any +1 you get is better than sitting on your hands in the buffing round. You don't always get a buffing round, but that's just fine because it means you don't expend the potion either so at least there's no loss. It only means that you carry fewer potions because you don't expect to use them every day.