An Apostle of Peace is breaking my game, help!

[dethkruzer]

Okay, before I explain the situation, I think a bit of backstory is in order:

I've been DMing a game for some while now, I only have one player, but his character is backed up by two NPCs, nothing major, but people who help get the job done.

Now, a little while a go, I was celebrating my birthday, and one the quests was my player, the other was another friend of mine (Let's call him M for now). Now i had been planning stuff, and proposed we play some D&D during the party, and everyone seemed okay with it.

Now I asked M to make a character, who was to make a cameo appearance, in advance, and I know he is something of a munchkin. In another oneshot game i did once, he made a trip attack centered monk, and I later had to DeM an enemy to be immune to trip attacks just to pose a decent challenge. Wanting to avoid what happened last time, i asked M to not make stuff like the tripper monk, or anything similary cheesy, and specifically told him not to make a character who clearly outshines the main character(the other PC).

He then came to me with an apostel of peace halfling saint, and being the fool I am, thought "This can't be as bad as before."

I was wrong.

Now the actual issue: He is pretty much invincible, as his AC is somewhere around 60-70, and his saves are at least +40. Now while this isn't that bad, the real problem is how he breaks my encounters, as anything coming within 20 feet of him must make a massive DC will save or not be hostile. He demonstrated this ability, when the only combat encounter of the game session was pretty much over when everyone set their character on the table.

Now, the party will soon face a boss battle, defending a macguffin, but I fear his presence will turn the Frenzied berserker boss and his mooks into unpleasent smelling NPCs.


So I'm really at a loss what to do, I know i need to get rid of the character, because otherwise he could just walk up to the the BBEG and politely ask them to stop being evil, and the BBEG would probably say "okay". Te only things that could really kill him is stuff from the epic level handbook, and that would kill the rest of the party, and If I tailormade an encounter to get rid of him, it would just seem out of place.

Any help would be appreciated.

[dextercorvia]

What level? How is he cranking his AC and save DC's so high? Can he handle a flying enemy? That is one of the main weaknesses of Vow of Poverty.

The Vow of Peace aura is mind effecting, so Undead, Constrcts, Elementals, and Oozes are usually immune -- as is anyone who has been the recipient of a Mind Blank spell.

Honestly though, the problem looks like his numbers -- I'm having a hard time seeing how he can get a Cha in the 50's which is what it would it would take to get his Peace aura DC up to the 40's.

[elvengunner69]

Roleplay a scene with his Deity before meeting the BBEG where he loses his major ability. See how he/she/it responds.

[W3bDragon]

First, you should sit down with him and do a proper audit of his character. Check for what rules he's using to get those numbers, and if his rules interpretations are the same as yours. If not, fix it.

Beyond that, I'd say just simply turn the encounter into a double pronged fight. One side of the fight revolves around the main PC+NPCs and the BBEG. The other side of the fight includes a corridor or whatever filled with endless amounts of mooks that the party cannot possibly take on and make it the responsibility of Mr M to nullify them. That way, your PC and his buddies can have the fight they want, and Mr M gets to have fun showing off his awesome power by nullifying wave after wave after wave of endless mooks, that happen to keep him busy till after the BBEG fight is done.

[dethkruzer]

I seem to have caused a misunderstanding, the coming boss battle is not with the BBEG, simply a minion, I have no intentions on letting him anywhere near the BBEG.

His ECL is 18, and I should probably mention, that as the Apostle of Peace let's him use item's that increase defenses, I allowed him to take item that increase constitution and dexterity, M decided to be an ass and bought a Belt of Magnificance. Now he got his numbers so high because he has levels in paladin, and gets his Wisdom to AC... twice.

I really can't talk to him in person/check his character sheet, as he lives like 30 miles that way, and I have no intention on using my limited budget to visit him by bus.

The two pronged battle won't work, simply because of where the boss battle would take place. and he could dispel mind blank.

I'm really at a loss, but i was thinking, that if nothing else works, then i can always use the nigh universal trump card, namely... Disjunction.

[W3bDragon]

I'm assuming that you do get to see his character sheet at some point. Audit it when you do.

As for the two pronged attack not working. Well, nothing is set in stone. You're the DM, find a plausible way to separate him from the party for the duration of the fight. It doesn't have to be a two pronged attack, it can be anything. Get creative.

As for disjunction... well, if you're really out of ideas, I suppose so, and at their levels, it shouldn't be unfair. Still, don't depend on one trick to solve the problem. Find multiple ways to balance things.

For example:

Plan A: Separate him from the group. Find whatever plausible reason you can. Then let the fight proceed without him while he does other stuff.

Plan B: If he realizes the fight is about to happen and decides to drop whatever lure you've put in his face and rush to the party, put obstacles in his way that'll slow him down long enough for the fight to finish before he arrives.

Plan C: If he arrives and the fight is still going on, then blow the disjunction.

[graeylin]

I really can't talk to him in person/check his character sheet, as he lives like 30 miles that way, and I have no intention on using my limited budget to visit him by bus.

If there were only some way that printed material, or even electronic files, could be shared across the miles.
1) Photocopy and USPS: approximate cost, 60 cents.
2) File attachment/PDF in an email. Approximate cost, 1 cent
3) Fax: approximate cost, 50 cents.

And the 30 miles away comment brings to my mind how different each of our lives are, in how we live, work, etc.. I drive more than 30 miles (one way) to get Milk and Bread each week, or to eat out at a salad bar. I consider it nothing, and yet, 30 miles is a very different thing to this poster. We all grow up differently, huh.

[dextercorvia]

I seem to have caused a misunderstanding, the coming boss battle is not with the BBEG, simply a minion, I have no intentions on letting him anywhere near the BBEG.

His ECL is 18, and I should probably mention, that as the Apostle of Peace let's him use item's that increase defenses, I allowed him to take item that increase constitution and dexterity, M decided to be an ass and bought a Belt of Magnificance. Now he got his numbers so high because he has levels in paladin, and gets his Wisdom to AC... twice.

I really can't talk to him in person/check his character sheet, as he lives like 30 miles that way, and I have no intention on using my limited budget to visit him by bus.

The two pronged battle won't work, simply because of where the boss battle would take place. and he could dispel mind blank.

I'm really at a loss, but i was thinking, that if nothing else works, then i can always use the nigh universal trump card, namely... Disjunction.

There is no way that his gimped CL should be able to reliably dispel a Mindblank from an appropriate level foe. He took Paladin levels, so his max CL is 11 before feats and gear. He could cover some of the gap with Practiced Spellcaster, but you could easily give him a CL25 Mindblank -- or outright Immunity, say from 3 levels of Warforged Juggernaut.

If you want to hurt M's character, check out the Schneeky's UPS man. Negative levels are going to hurt -- his abilities are based off his class/character level. An AMF shuts him down, HARD. All of his Exalted Feat abilities and a lot of his Saint abilities are (Su).

I would send a Warforged Juggernaut to grapple him with an AMF up. He can get around it, but it will take time and resources, and leave the rest of the party to handle your regular encounter.

Where is his second source of Wis to AC coming from (I assume the first is Saint)?

[NeoSeraphi]

Where is his second source of Wis to AC coming from (I assume the first is Saint)?

Based on a previous post, I would assume the player chose a paladin ACF that gives Cha to AC instead of to saves (I think it's in Complete Champion) and then took the Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium (Paladin abilities are based off Wisdom, not Charisma)

[NeoSeraphi]

Where is his second source of Wis to AC coming from (I assume the first is Saint)?

Based on a previous post, I would assume the player chose a paladin ACF that gives Cha to AC instead of to saves (I think it's in Complete Champion) and then took the Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium (Paladin abilities are based off Wisdom, not Charisma)

[Big Fau]

First and foremost: Apostle of Peace is widely agreed upon as being one of the more broken PrCs out there. There are a few reasons for this.

Secondly: Has the party been obeying the Vow's restrictions? If not, you can use that to weaken him (Have his deity or a member of his pantheon/representative of his beliefs show up and admonish him for not enforcing the rules of his vow, and then remove some, but not all, of his vow benefits).

Third: The Belt of Magnificence does not stack with the stat boosts from Vow of Poverty. And if he is wearing armor, he cannot add his Exalted bonus to AC.

Fourth: Did he take the Saint template without running it by you at all? If so, revoke it and inform him that he cheated the template onto his build.

Fifth: Dispel Magic won't always work. There are ways to boost the CL of your spells to the mid-40's before Epic (and post-Epic all bets are off).

6th: There is a feat in Elder Evils that provides permanent immunity to Mind-Affecting abilities. You can give this feat to your NPCs for free by RAW (there's an option in Elder Evils for worshipping one, and doing so gives you 5 free feats).

7th: We need to see his full stat list. We can review it and point out other holes in his stats and actual weaknesses he may have.

[dextercorvia]

Based on a previous post, I would assume the player chose a paladin ACF that gives Cha to AC instead of to saves (I think it's in Complete Champion) and then took the Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium (Paladin abilities are based off Wisdom, not Charisma)

I thought that might be the case -- that is from CoV, and is limited in uses per day. IIRC, it also takes an Immediate action to activate.

I agree with Big Fau, if we can see his character, we can audit it. I would guess with numbers like that, he has some stacking 'errors'.

[Nagukuk]

You are the DM, YOU are in charge.

You do not need a way by the rules to defeat nullify etc this character.

You can just make it happen. Its even in the rules heh.


Now, it may be a bit dickish If you rule zero his character AFTER he dirves 30miles to play.

SO communicate to him your intentions, give him some good "ConGratz" on creating a flavorful powerful character. Have him create a new character, or better yet, create one for him,(based on some of his input) or let him play one or more of the NPCs that travel with the "hero".

If he is going to create a character.

Give him some more guidelines for creating characters, obviously "dont make a character like your super tripping monk guy" did not work. As he took it as a personal challenge and created the opposite of a melee monster.

Make him run the concept and all parts of the character by YOU before the game date.

[Xaktsaroth]

I DM by a simple rule: I optimize the encounters to match the PC's.

If your Apostle is ruining the game for you, don't play fair.

His abilities only work within a certain range, so just don't attack from that range.

Archer the crap out of him, and use force bolts so they don't shatter against him.

There are PLENTY of spells that don't allow saves, or even need attack rolls, use them!

An intelligent enemy is going to know at least a little bit about the party before they kick down the door. Just being prepared is going to make a huge difference.

Then one of three things will happen:

1) You'll end up killing him, and he'll roll a new character
2) He'll make it out alive, but fairly beat up. Hopefully, he'll see things a little differently from the on.
3) He'll ace it, so you ramp up the difficultly.

And besides, like a lot of other people have said. Rule 0, you're the DM. You have final say. If he's ruining it for you and the other players, you have the power to just outright stop it.

Hope that helps.

[Zaq]

Then one of three things will happen:

1) You'll end up killing him, and he'll roll a new character
2) He'll make it out alive, but fairly beat up. Hopefully, he'll see things a little differently from then on. At that point, he'll probably optimize harder and make things worse.
3) He'll ace it, so you ramp up the difficultly.


Fixed that for you.

An arms race mentality, especially with a player who makes a character like this in this first place, almost never ends with everyone in the game having a good time.

[Xaktsaroth]

Fixed that for you.

An arms race mentality, especially with a player who makes a character like this in this first place, almost never ends with everyone in the game having a good time.

I disagree that tailoring encounters to challenge players is considered an "arms race mentality".

That being said, my suggestions were in the event that a normal, outside of play conversation with the player didn't produce results.

So, I apologize for any confusion on that part.

[Snowbluff]

1) Drop a boulder to kill him for playing a Monk.

2) You said don't so this. Ban Vow feats, and drop a few more boulders and Disintegrate his corpse.

3) Ban Monks, not because they are good, but because I hate them.

[Flickerdart]

An Apostle of Peace Saint has to be super-Exalted. The second he does a Neutral thing he loses pretty much all of his abilities.

[TravelLog]

An Apostle of Peace Saint has to be super-Exalted. The second he does a Neutral thing he loses pretty much all of his abilities.

This. Give him a situation where the player can't resist being greedy or something. Then call him on and revoke most of his abilities.

[dextercorvia]

Re-reading this... Does it sound to anyone else like M came to a forum and said, "My DM thinks my Monk tripper is over powered -- help me build a full caster and show him what broken really is."

[Nohwl]

no, he chose apostle of peace and not a druid.

[Pilo]

Ah, there is an easy way to fight againts exalted character.

Exalted feat are supernatural abilities and there is a spell : http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm which disable supernatural abilities.
And there is a rule that state that you loose your prc abilities as soon as you don't meet the prerequisites anymore.

[Hirax]

Have him fight frosty the snow archivist, who is under the effects of the following spells:
mantle of the icy soul (gets you the cold subtype, required for algid enhancement to function)
algid enhancement (1+3/cl enhancement bonus to attack rolls, an easy +10 or more if you pump CL, which you should with a boss)
Divine power (BAB = HD, obvious choice)
Pick a monster that gets at good dex/strength after enhancement bonuses. If you give them the mother cyst ability that gives them easy access to necrotic empowerment, which grants a +8 bonus to dex, int, and wis, among other things.
Dark knowledge (archivist class ability, another easy +2-3)
Shapechange into a chronotyryn. Or just have the enemy be one. The boss can now cast true strike and attack in the same round, due to chronotyryns being able to take 2 rounds worth of actions in a round. Or if you want to be mean, he can cast quickened true strike twice and attack twice. I recommend 2 shots of greater bestow curse, if either one of them works, use it to take his wisdom down to 1.

[dethkruzer]

The mind blank sounds good, It'l keep the boss and some of the more powerful mooks hostile. now as it is, M was supposed to only appear in one session, but it'll take a total of two, or maybe three sessions to get him out.

I let him have the saint template, and am keeping a close watch on his actions, as it is, no one in the party has killed ANYTHING, not even the evil outsider.

Now the idea of optimizing the enemy to fit the party wouldn't work, because anything that could kill Ms Character would curb stomp the NPC Characters, and give the other PC the battle of his life, if not just a curb stomp.

Also, could someone give the page for the feat in elder evils, i'm AFB at the moment.

But thanks, this has been helpful, keep it coming.

[Ceaon]

... Did you try TALKING with him? I mean, you asked him to go easy on optimization, he obviously did not listen or understand. Tell him he went overboard and ask him to tone it down. Why do you need to change all the encounters, as the first option no less, if it's his behavior that is troubling you - enough so to make a topic about it?

[Gotterdammerung]

I DM by a simple rule: I optimize the encounters to match the PC's.

If your Apostle is ruining the game for you, don't play fair.

His abilities only work within a certain range, so just don't attack from that range.

Archer the crap out of him, and use force bolts so they don't shatter against him.

There are PLENTY of spells that don't allow saves, or even need attack rolls, use them!

An intelligent enemy is going to know at least a little bit about the party before they kick down the door. Just being prepared is going to make a huge difference.

Then one of three things will happen:

1) You'll end up killing him, and he'll roll a new character
2) He'll make it out alive, but fairly beat up. Hopefully, he'll see things a little differently from the on.
3) He'll ace it, so you ramp up the difficultly.

And besides, like a lot of other people have said. Rule 0, you're the DM. You have final say. If he's ruining it for you and the other players, you have the power to just outright stop it.

Hope that helps.


I GM the exact opposite way. I make a good story. I populate it with NPCs who are good at what they do. Then I let the party interact naturally.

I hate it when a GM specifically designs encounters to counter everything the players can do. It is cheap dming. First off, every build has a counter (especially when your a GM with rule 0 under your belt.) Secondly, it is your job to mitigate an interactive story for the enjoyment of all, NOT win vs. the players at all cost.

In my experience the OP has 3 options.

option 1: adapt. Use the experience to become a better GM. Write a story that includes the influence of this new powerful character. Use plot hooks and intrigue to put this player in difficult situations that stress the restrictions of his vows. Create villains who think outside the box or are thematically opposed to his ideals.

A vermin lord who attacks the heroes through the people, attacking and spreading pestilence wherever the PC's are not at. He spreads word throughout the common folk that he will stop this unchecked destruction IF the saints head is brought to the swamps of Zaghrak and left at the foot of the Dankreg altar.

Make an antithesis for him. An enemy with the Vow of violence, Vow of greed, vow of war and levels in apostle of war with the Sinner template (these things do not exist but it doesn't stop you from creating them to make a proper villain for his character).


option 2: Talk with the character about how you feel he failed your request. Let him know you aren't comfortable with the style and power of his character. You specifically asked him not to outshine the other player and he did it anyway. You aren't prepared to rewrite the campaign just to adapt, which is why you asked him not to do this in the first place. Ask him what other character builds he would be interested in playing. This time be more involved in the character making process. Steer his new character as close to reasonable as you can. If it is still a problem ask him to leave the game.


Option 3: IF option 1 is not possible AND IF option 2 has been tried and failed, AND if you were not willing to ask him to leave ,THEN and only then would I use option 3. Which is to use rule 0 to crucify him.

Suggested method... "Awe... MAN! Dang! That Sucks dude, you just stepped on a ladybug...and the big boss just showed up toooo so there isn't anytime to run away and atone."

[dextercorvia]

Now the idea of optimizing the enemy to fit the party wouldn't work, because anything that could kill Ms Character would curb stomp the NPC Characters, and give the other PC the battle of his life, if not just a curb stomp.

You have one regular PC, and multiple NPC characters in the party? My spider sense is tingling....

[CTrees]

I'm seeing a multi-armed construct monk tripper build as a hilarious counter for him, given that he apparently previously broke your game with a tripper monk (and really, monk? really? Not... pretty much anything else, using a spiked chain? Sheesh). Karmic and all that.

Everyone else has given good advice, so I'll just say... how did a tripper break your game? Oozes. Incorporeal enemies. Fliers with ranged attacks. Big creatures with plenty of legs. Purple worms. Beholders. Readied freaking actions paired with reach weapons. Trip optimization is a fun trick which is only useful against a very narrow selection of challenges.

[Tyndmyr]

Wanting to avoid what happened last time, i asked M to not make stuff like the tripper monk, or anything similary cheesy, and specifically told him not to make a character who clearly outshines the main character(the other PC).

Aright. Here's the deal. You asked him not to make a cheesy char. He made a cheesy char. Talk to him about this.


Now the idea of optimizing the enemy to fit the party wouldn't work, because anything that could kill Ms Character would curb stomp the NPC Characters, and give the other PC the battle of his life, if not just a curb stomp.


Oh. NPC chars. No, no, that's good. Them dying is just fine, and it'll highlight that the fight is a big deal.

The disparity with the other PC is more of an issue. Disparity with NPCs is not.

[DrDeth]

... Did you try TALKING with him? I mean, you asked him to go easy on optimization, he obviously did not listen or understand. Tell him he went overboard and ask him to tone it down. Why do you need to change all the encounters, as the first option no less, if it's his behavior that is troubling you - enough so to make a topic about it?

Yes, this should work. Really, just talk to him.

[Telonius]

Some cheap items that might help you resist that Will save:

Mindarmor, armor property from Magic Item Compendium, p. 13, Untyped
Greater Crystal of Mind Cloaking, MiC p. 26, Competence
Crystal Mask of Mindarmor, MiC p.92, Insight
Mask of Mental Armor, MiC p.115-116, Resistance

All that together would come to 25k gp, and give +15 to will saves and/or saves vs mind-affecting effects. Add +2 from Rage, and I'm guessing your base will save is going to be +5 or +6, with maybe 12 in Wisdom to start ... +24 without really trying. Saint Bertold there is only going to have 19+cha as the DC; unless he has some kind of seriously ridiculous charisma, your Berserker is only going to fail on a very low roll. If he does, the Greater Crystal means he gets to roll again.


Ghost Touch weapons might be your friend, depending on how you interpret this line:
Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

Shattering wouldn't be very beneficial, so it would count as incorporeal if it hits. (Normally I'd call this a really suspect ruling, but against a munchkin I don't feel bad about it).

[imneuromancer]

Yes, this should work. Really, just talk to him.

Those kinds of uber-optimizations are good for a session or two of laughs, everyone has fun watching the poor encounters flounder helplessly against the arbitrary physics of The Rules As Written, and then it becomes stupid and frustrating for DM and other players alike.

So I would say let the player have a little fun with it, feel free to congratulate him on making a really awesome build, and then (as the other posts have mentioned) talk to him about making something a little less ridiculous.

[Venger]

I'm seeing a multi-armed construct monk tripper build as a hilarious counter for him, given that he apparently previously broke your game with a tripper monk (and really, monk? really? Not... pretty much anything else, using a spiked chain? Sheesh). Karmic and all that.

Everyone else has given good advice, so I'll just say... how did a tripper break your game? Oozes. Incorporeal enemies. Fliers with ranged attacks. Big creatures with plenty of legs. Purple worms. Beholders. Readied freaking actions paired with reach weapons. Trip optimization is a fun trick which is only useful against a very narrow selection of challenges.

that was the thing that caught my mind about the OP as well.

how exactly did he break your game with a monk tripper?

if that's what you view as too optimised, it really makes me wonder what the other PC in the party is if he is worse than a monk tripper (from earlier posts it appears you have 2 PCs and round out the party with a few NPCs)

what is he, a samurai? is that (whatever it may be) the degree of optimisation that you're more comfortable with? if so, you should help your apostle of peace player build something more in line with that (brush up on the tier system, it's a very helpful baseline of making sure the party's not too far from one another in levels of power. apostle of peace is one of the most powerful classes in the game right up there with tainted scholar and illithid savant, occupying the negative tiers.

if you cried foul at the monk tripper being too powerful, what made you okay an apostle o peace? (with the infamously broken saint template no less) I thought he'd snuck saint by you, but you implied you allowed it. why is this? especially since if a monk tripper can break your game, something that's probably about a million times more powerful can break your game much worse.

[jiriku]

This is a very simple situation with a simple solution. Tell the player his character didn't fall within the expectation you set, and he must retire and replace it. Others have suggested this, but I want to emphasize: as the DM, you are the law. Like Judge Dredd. You control what does and does not play. You are never obligated to allow a player to do whatever he pleases. Like a referee in a sports game, the whistle and the penalty flag are your tools. Don't be shy about it - as the DM, you put more than 10x the effort into the game than any player. You've earned the right to shoot down any player behavior that trainwrecks all that effort.

[Arcane_Snowman]

His ECL is 18, and I should probably mention, that as the Apostle of Peace let's him use item's that increase defenses, I allowed him to take item that increase constitution and dexterity, M decided to be an ass and bought a Belt of Magnificance. Now he got his numbers so high because he has levels in paladin, and gets his Wisdom to AC... twice. You seem to have made a mistake here, go back and read Apostle of Peace:

Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace, Vow of Poverty

[Aethir]

You seem to have made a mistake here, go back and read Apostle of Peace:

You skipped a bit yourself, there's a throwaway line in the Weapon/Armor prof section that reads: "As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor)."

Which is of course useless without DM adjudication of what constitutes protective items, and does not actually offer an exception to the rule that you cannot wear magic items with VoP.

[Reprimand]

Don't make bigger monsters to combat him, it only ends in an arms race with powergamers. The best thing to do would be to simply talk to him and tell him about the problems he is creating in his game.