Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike

[Elboxo]

Does this work with ranged weapons, say a dagger? It states, "She applies her Intelligence bonus (if any)
as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength
bonus she may have) with any light weapon, as well as any
other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, such
as a rapier, whip, or spiked chain. Targets immune to sneak
attacks or critical hits are immune to the swashbuckler’s
insightful strike."

Doesn't say melee....

Thoughts?

[Flickerdart]

So long as it's light, it works.

[Elboxo]

That's what I'm thinking too.... this works perfectly for a concept I've got :D

[Lateral]

...Except there's no such thing as a 'light' ranged weapon- it's a descriptor that's only applied to melee weapons.

[Flickerdart]

...Except there's no such thing as a 'light' ranged weapon- it's a descriptor that's only applied to melee weapons.
Thrown weapons, however, can be all sorts of categories.

[Tvtyrant]

Bloodstorm Blader time.

[Elboxo]

My idea was Fighter/Ranger/Whirling Frenzy/Master Thrower

TWF tree, palm throw, Power Throw

20 KNIVES ALL TOUCH ATTACKS, ALL POWER ATTACK

[Elboxo]

My idea was Fighter/Ranger/Whirling Frenzy/Master Thrower

TWF tree, palm throw, Power Throw

20 KNIVES ALL TOUCH ATTACKS, ALL POWER ATTACK

[Venger]

that's a tried and true formula. have fun!

[Elboxo]

Ooh thanks, can you link me to an example? I've been building one, but palm throw and insightful strike don't tango well.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Ooh thanks, can you link me to an example? I've been building one, but palm throw and insightful strike don't tango well.
And why not? :smallconfused:

[Venger]

Ooh thanks, can you link me to an example? I've been building one, but palm throw and insightful strike don't tango well.

well, the thread I posted it in seems to have disappeared, but here's the build that I used for a thrower. he was a cohort of mine in a game:


1 Hexblade 1- EWP (xen’drik boomerang)
1 Hex 1- point blank shot
2 Hex 2
3 Hex 3- weapon focus (xen’drik boomerang)
4 Swashbuckler 1
5 Swash 2
6 Pious Templar 1- precise shot
7 Swash 3
8 Master Thrower 1
9 MT2- Brutal Throw
10 MT 3
11 MT 4
12 MT 5-Far Shot
13 Invisible Blade 1
14 IB 2
15 IB 3-Boomerang Daze
16 IB 4
17 IB 5

Brutal throw adds str to atk instead of dex, since str can also feed into damage and is used for other stuff. insightful strike adds int to damage (not exactly RAW applying them to boomerangs, but they can't be all that different from daggers, really, my DM cut me a little slack, as do most people's DMs who're trying to qualify for throwers) int also gets added onto AC (to a max of your invisible blade level, 5) which is pretty cool.

he only goes up to level 17 since he was a cohort, but this is the basic idea behind an insightful strike thrower. I used boomerangs because as you have probably guessed, I was seeing how long I could secretly have my cohort be batman and not have the DM figure it out (turns out the whole campaign) but you could use daggers or whatever tickles your fancy. I was paranoid about enemies throwing daggers back at me or just picking them up and using them, so I deliberately picked a bizarre weapon that few people can use without EWP. sure enough, no one tried chucking my batarangs back at me.

for master thrower, pick palm toss (throw 2 batarangs at once), you don't get to add your str, but you don't care because you add your better int onto damage anyway. don't use palm toss when you need moar damage. also get trip shot (self explanatory) and two with one blow (very cool) sneaky shot's not really worth it since you have 3 dice of SA and can already feint as a free action with IB. so if you want to hit someone flat footed, you'll do it as long as you make your bluff (with zillions of skill points, you ought to do it)

this is just an example, of course, yours will probably look different from this. what sort of thing did you want to specialise in with your swashbuckler?

[ILM]

Just gonna leave that here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12270051&postcount=631)

[Elboxo]

And why not? :smallconfused:

Palmthrow: "...Damage for each weapon is
resolved separately, but the master thrower does not apply her
Strength bonus to either damage roll."

Insightful Strike: "...She applies her Intelligence bonus (if any)
as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength
bonus she may have)..."


ILM Touche, to be fair it does say "That can be used with Weapon Finesse"

Technically they can be used with finesse, that's just not how you're using them xD

Venger: I wasn't decided yet, my DM's hosting a one-off 8th level dungeon for a few people, was thinking of making a thrower (though you really need 10th level for final level of Master Thrower and BaB ) or a Darfellan Soul Eater or something

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Palmthrow: "...Damage for each weapon is
resolved separately, but the master thrower does not apply her
Strength bonus to either damage roll."

Insightful Strike: "...She applies her Intelligence bonus (if any)
as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength
bonus she may have)..."
It doesn't say that you don't add Insightful Strikes damage when there's no Str bonus damage. It only says that you add it and not replace.

[Elboxo]

It doesn't say that you don't add Insightful Strikes damage when there's no Str bonus damage. It only says that you add it and not replace.

It doesn't say you DO add Int to damage without Strength either, I think it's reasonably specific with the " In addition to " rather than " As well as other sources of damage "

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Take it however you want. Your choice to gimp yourself unnecessary.

[Venger]

It doesn't say you DO add Int to damage without Strength either, I think it's reasonably specific with the " In addition to " rather than " As well as other sources of damage "

nope, insightful strike works with palm throw as long as you're using finesseable weapons like daggers.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Just gonna leave that here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12270051&postcount=631)As quoted in the first post of the thread, Insightful Strike works with light weapons and finesse weapons. Since we're talking about throwing daggers, it doesn't matter whether weapon finesse applies; daggers meet Insightful Strike's other condition simply by being light weapons. If Elboxo had wanted to throw rapier...

[Elboxo]

Take it however you want. Your choice to gimp yourself unnecessary.

Actually it's my DM's choice, and I'm 90% sure he wouldn't be convinced by this argument... thanks anyway guys

[Doughnut Master]

A light crossbow isn't considered a light weapon?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Light_Crossbow

[lord pringle]

EDIT:Never mind. I'm stupid.

[Venger]

Actually it's my DM's choice, and I'm 90% sure he wouldn't be convinced by this argument... thanks anyway guys

well, if your DM's not gonna let insightful strike apply to thrown weapons, it would be inadvisable using a thrower (they rely on swash3 to springboard into Master thrower and invisible blade)

if your DM doesn't mind tome of battle, you could always roll bloodstorm blade and chuck swords at people. people on this board really love ToB so you should be able to get plenty of advise on that front



A light crossbow isn't considered a light weapon?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Light_Crossbow

no, a crossbow (light, hand, or heavy) is not a light weapon (they should've called it something else, I swear it's like they're paid to confuse us on purpose) D&Dwiki's mostly fan stuff, so be careful about checking actual rule information there. it's fun for homebrew classes and feats and stuff, but they modify real published material (often with the same names) on there sometimes too in slight ways, just enough to confuse people.

[Doughnut Master]

Hmm. Interesting. Although, given the text of the weapon, I don't think it would be obscene for a DM to rule them as such. Same for hand crossbows.

[Elboxo]

well, if your DM's not gonna let insightful strike apply to thrown weapons, it would be inadvisable using a thrower (they rely on swash3 to springboard into Master thrower and invisible blade)

if your DM doesn't mind tome of battle, you could always roll bloodstorm blade and chuck swords at people. people on this board really love ToB so you should be able to get plenty of advise on that front




no, a crossbow (light, hand, or heavy) is not a light weapon (they should've called it something else, I swear it's like they're paid to confuse us on purpose) D&Dwiki's mostly fan stuff, so be careful about checking actual rule information there. it's fun for homebrew classes and feats and stuff, but they modify real published material (often with the same names) on there sometimes too in slight ways, just enough to confuse people.

Yeah I realised this and have built an unarmed strike based melee character, should be fun :)

Thanks for the help guys

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Rules Compendium page 148.

RANGED WEAPONS
The same rules apply when you throw
or fi re a weapon from each hand, as
long as the weapon you’re using
doesn’t require two hands
to fi re. Treat Medium weapons
that weigh 1 pound or less as
light when used in this manner. Treat Medium
weapons that are heavier as one-handed for
this purpose. The same light or one-handed designation
applies to such weapons when they’re
appropriately sized for creatures larger or smaller
than Medium.

[Curmudgeon]

Rules Compendium page 148.
Some context is in order here. This page talks about extra attacks, and attack penalties, for two-weapon fighting. It has nothing to do with what happens after these weapons leave your hands and the "Light, 1-Handed, and 2-Handed" melee weapon categories no longer apply.

Insightful Strike only affects damage. At the time a thrown dagger hits its target, it's not treated as a "light" weapon any longer.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Some context is in order here. This page talks about extra attacks, and attack penalties, for two-weapon fighting. It has nothing to do with what happens after these weapons leave your hands and the "Light, 1-Handed, and 2-Handed" melee weapon categories no longer apply.

Insightful Strike only affects damage. At the time a thrown dagger hits its target, it's not treated as a "light" weapon any longer.
The question was if a light crossbow is a light weapon. This page answers it.
Concerning melee weapons: Mind citing rules?

[Venger]

Yeah I realised this and have built an unarmed strike based melee character, should be fun :)

Thanks for the help guys

natural attacks are always treated as light weapons, so weapon finesse/insightful strike would indisputably apply to them (if you wanted swashbuckler on your guy) and it'd allow your guy to dump str if you took shadow hand (use dex to damage on top of int) since you're already getting dex to atk too

[Gullintanni]

Regarding Light Crossbows, the relevant SRD text lists Light Crossbows as a Ranged Weapons, which do not carry Light/One Handed or Two-Handed designations...and from SRD:

You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing."

This is a case of specific > general. The Light Crossbow is a ranged weapon that has no designation aside from "Ranged Weapon", except for the purpose of the attack roll, which treats light crossbows as light weapons. Insightful Strike doesn't work here.

Re: Throwing Weapons and Insightful Strike, the relevant text appears to be this,

Melee and Ranged Weapons

Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

...and this,

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons

This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

The bolded instances result in the following:

1. Thrown weapons are Ranged weapons; and
2. Melee weapons are either light, one-handed or two-handed.

The second clause is never applied to Ranged Weapons, and therefore, any Ranged Weapon should be subject only to the rules governing Ranged Weapons. A thrown dagger uses the rules for ranged weapons, whereas a dagger in melee uses the rules for melee weapons. Insightful Strike, thus, should not work for daggers, as ranged weapons never have the melee only clauses, "Light, One-Handed or Two-Handed" to them. That being said, Rules Compendium is the primary source, so it should have supremacy.

Reading of the quote above from the RC seems to suggest that when attacking with a Ranged Weapon, treat the weapon as light if certain conditions as met for the purposes of making attacks. This, in my reading, doesn't changed the rules governing Ranged Weapons, only for making TWF attacks with them.

That being said, it's hardly game breaking to permit Insightful Strikers' to add their int. damage to ranged attacks. Ranged attacks kind of need the boost anyway, given how hard it is to get sources of extra damage for their attacks.

[agahii]

The harshest interpretation I can read is that as long as you twf then its a light weapon based on that rules compendium text. Based on this "Treat Medium weapons that weigh 1 pound or less as light when used in this manner". It does not say treat them as light ONLY when determining twf penalties, it says "treat them as light weapons" "when used in this manner".

So you are good from my absolute harshest interpretation based on the rules compendium. Honestly I think it is dumb to even say you have to twf to get the benefit, but w/e you probably are as a thrower anyway.

Mainly I think it is RAW that you can simply use the ability because the Insightful text reads "with any light weapon, as well as any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, such as a rapier, whip, or spiked chain"

It says "with any light weapon". The dagger is still a light weapon at some point even though it is being used as a ranged weapon. Also a harsher interpretation is that you can use it with thrown "rapiers, whips, or spiked chains" no matter what because it specifically calls them out as being allowed. (does not say can only use the ability if you are using them in a manner that allows them to be used with weapon finesse. It says if they CAN be. Even if they at some point are not used with weapon finesse, they CAN still be.