[PF] First time character in pathfinder

[Master Thrower]

Hello playground, I have just been asked to join a PF game, which while decently knowledgeable in the rules, I have never actually played. So I turn to the playground for advice, is there any type of guides for PF?

But more to the character, I would like to play some kinda rogue-esqe character, Maybe some levels of shadow dancer, if its passable in PF. But any ideas would be helpful.

Tenth Level to start, for race I would like to be half-elf. Two traits.
Only stuff from the pathfinder srd
Suggest away play ground :smallsmile:

[Master Thrower]

Hello playground, I have just been asked to join a PF game, which while decently knowledgeable in the rules, I have never actually played. So I turn to the playground for advice, is there any type of guides for PF?

But more to the character, I would like to play some kinda rogue-esqe character, Maybe some levels of shadow dancer, if its passable in PF. But any ideas would be helpful.

Tenth Level to start, for race I would like to be half-elf. Two traits.
Only stuff from the pathfinder srd
Preferably some type of magic, pretty open.

Suggestions for, class (I would like rogue), rogue tricks, feats, traits, PrC if any, and arch-types would be very helpful
Thanks playground

[Psyren]

As a matter of fact, there is a guide that goes over changes between 3.5 and PF, written by our very own Saph. You'll find that here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7609693) Pay special attention to how skill ranks and races have changed, and also note that for rogues especially you're able to sneak attack lots more creatures than you could in 3.5 (such as undead and constructs.)


Secondly, Shadowdancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/shadowdancer) is passable in PF (at the very least, it is easier to qualify for) but still suffers from the issues of no sneak attack progression and subpar abilities. Once again, HiPs and the shadow pet are the best parts of the class, with the rest of it largely being footnotes.

One thing you should know about PF rogues (and PF classes in general) is that often it's better to stay in your base class all the way rather than PrCing out. A dip in Shadowdancer for HiPs is very handy but other than that, you might be better staying a rogue. (Or looking into Assassin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/assassin) if you can work something out with the alignment requirements.)

[UrsielHauke]

There are a lot of guides on how to build solid characters in PF which, while I have never used them myself, you might find helpful.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/rogue-eidolon-s-lab
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab

[Bhaakon]

Shadow dancer isn't any more worthwhile in pathfinder than in 3.5, to be honest. Three feats is a steep toll for hide in plain sight--which is going to be superfluous if you've got enough casting to use invisibility--and you lose out on sneak attack progression if you try to get shadow jump.

If you're looking for a rogue with some magic, I'd suggest a vivisectionist archetype alchemist. You get full sneak attack with a mutagen to boost your strength, limited spellcasting, and discoveries in exchange for rogue talents (some are useful, but I think discoveries are better on the balance), trapfinding, and skill points (though you should have a higher Int, so you get some of them back). Basically, it's going to do 90% of what a normal rogue can do, plus a bunch of other nifty stuff thanks to its pseudo-spellcasting (I've read a debate on these forums about whether an alchemist's formulae count as casting, particular wrt to the arcane strike feat. There's some contradictory evidence in the RAW).

[Anderlith]

Do you want to be a ninja rogue? Play the ninja Alt Class in Ultimate Combat

[Psyren]

Shadow dancer isn't any more worthwhile in pathfinder than in 3.5, to be honest. Three feats is a steep toll for hide in plain sight--which is going to be superfluous if you've got enough casting to use invisibility--and you lose out on sneak attack progression if you try to get shadow jump.

Invisibility has many, many, many disadvantages compared to just plain hiding. HiPs is much stronger than you're giving it credit for, and there are fewer ways to get it in PF than in 3.5. It's definitely reason enough on its own to enter SD.

Keeping in mind that (a) you get 50% more feats in Pathfinder (b) Rogue Talents can themselves also be exchanged for feats (via Combat Trick) and (c) that the feat reqs aren't even that rough on you (Dodge is stronger in PF, and Combat Reflexes is both useful on its own as well as required for lots of other useful feats), and I don't find the toll to be that steep at all, especially just for a quick dip. A rogue should have no problem entering SD in 5 levels regardless of race.


Finally, Alchemists are handy and all but you lose out on both Trapfinding and some key skills. Also, Alchemists are pretty complex for someone totally new to PF, particularly in terms of learnng which spells changed, not to mention the crafting system overhaul.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

well, a couple things. Shadowdancer is still only good for a 1-2 level dip.

As much as I love rogues as a character concept, and I can tell you several different ways to build one in a pure pathfinder game, I am continually stymied by the fact that other classes and archetypes do the rogues job better.

Since you said rogue-esque, I bring this up. there are better options than rogue. For example, urban ranger, several of the bard archetypes, and as usual, a wizard.

I myself am currently working on a expanding out of my rogue box, and into an Arcane Duelist Bard.

However, if you are still gonna shoot for a rogue/shadowdancer, I can help with that too.

I jsut need to know if you want melee, TWF, archery, some magic... some parameters.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

sandman bard is decent for a magic using rogue. if you aren't as concerned about sneak attack, an arcane duelist bard is very good as well.

[Bhaakon]

Invisibility has many, many, many disadvantages compared to just plain hiding. HiPs is much stronger than you're giving it credit for, and there are fewer ways to get it in PF than in 3.5. It's definitely reason enough on its own to enter SD.

Invisibility has one major advantage, in that the rules explicitly state that anyone an invisible creature attacks loses their Dex bonus to AC (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Modifiers), making them eligible for a sneak attack. There's no such provision for hiding, and the rules do not equate hiding with invisibility. Which means that stealth alone can only net you a sneak attack by allowing you to act in the surprise round or to secretly flank a target, neither of which requires HiPS to pull off (or invisibility, for that matter, as long as you have a decent number of ranks in stealth).

Unless I'm completely missing an obvious passage (which is totally possible).

[Larpus]

If you're looking for a rogue with some magic, I'd suggest a vivisectionist archetype alchemist. You get full sneak attack with a mutagen to boost your strength, limited spellcasting, and discoveries in exchange for rogue talents (some are useful, but I think discoveries are better on the balance), trapfinding, and skill points (though you should have a higher Int, so you get some of them back). Basically, it's going to do 90% of what a normal rogue can do, plus a bunch of other nifty stuff thanks to its pseudo-spellcasting (I've read a debate on these forums about whether an alchemist's formulae count as casting, particular wrt to the arcane strike feat. There's some contradictory evidence in the RAW).
I second this, playing one and it indeed is a very awesome tier3.

And you also have the option of using poison as the class makes poisons more manageable (without Minor Creation) as you get a nice bonus to Craft (alchemy) so it's fairly easy to make them at 1/3 cost and there is a discovery that increases the amount of hits they stay on your weapon, effectively making poisons cost 1/9 or so for you.

Or if that doesn't appeal to you, couple in Beastmorph and start flying at lvl6 and pouncing at 10.

[DrDeth]

I do want to point out, that under the current RAW, HiPS or Stealth does not make your foes lose their DEX. (Paizo has proposed a rules change in a Blog).

Thus Shadowdancer may not be the way to go, if SnAct is what you want.

[Blisstake]

Okay, two questions first.

1. By new to PF, do you mean you have 3.5 experience (I am aware we aren't using any 3.5 material for this, but it's useful to know)

2. How optimized to you expect the rest of the party to be?

[Yora]

For Shadowdancer you need only 3 feats and 5 ranks in Stealth, so you can take your first level at 6th. So if you want the Shadow Jump, you could start with a Rogue 5/Shadowdancer 4 and still have one level to distribute.
If your GM is on board, you could jump as your suprise action, and the win initiative to get a sneak attack while your victim is still flat footed. But it doesn't work anymore once combat has started.
On the downside, it makes Sneak Attack lag behind by 4 levels.