Holy Barbarians!

[NeoSeraphi]

Wow, so I recalled before during a discussion about Exalted feats (in my Book of What's In It For Me thread) that one person defended the Righteous Wrath feat, purely because it granted access to the Champion of Gwymharwyf prestige class.

I took a look at that class tonight, and wow! Can you say "rage mage done right?"

The class is trivially easy to enter, requiring only two useful feats and 9 ranks in a decent skill (as well as a Chaotic Good alignment).

For that, you get a whole slew of paladin abilities, 7 divine spells per day, maybe 11 if your Wisdom is high enough to get you a bonus spell of each level, plus full rage progression (this is the only barbarian prestige class I've seen that did it like this), the ability to cast those spells while raging with no problems, FULL BAB (unlike the rage mage!), faster damage reduction progression, energy resistance 10, and immunity to charms and compulsions!

This is strongly competing with frenzied berserker for my favorite barbarian prestige right now. They both have their weaknesses. Frenzied berserker has that whole "I can kill everyone if I don't make my save" deal.

Meanwhile, Champion of Gwymharwyf is...well..MAD. Just like a paladin, only without heavy armor proficiency.

To be honest, it would have made more sense to me if the Champion got Charisma-based casting, but as Charisma is never used for prepared casters, I can see why they chose Wisdom instead. Still, I'm not complaining, because as you are a prepared caster with a Good alignment, you get access to those Sanctified spells, including sunmantle, which is just amazing.

I guess the reason I'm posting this, though, is because of the major issue with the Champion of Gwymharwyf, that being...the complete lack of a caster level. The champion of gwymharwyf prestige class does not say anything about what its caster level is. (Class level, character level, or 1/2 class level like a paladin? I don't know)

Thoughts on this?

[Flickerdart]

Isn't the default CL 1/class level? So a Barbarian 10/Champion of Gargleblargle 10 would have a CL of 10.

My main issue with Champion of Gobbledygook is that you can't use its Rage with normal people casting (IIRC). Otherwise, Barbarian 5/Champion of Gargleblaster 2/Divine Crusader 10/Champion of Galapagos 3 would have been a really sweet build.

[NeoSeraphi]

Isn't the default CL 1/class level? So a Barbarian 10/Champion of Gargleblargle 10 would have a CL of 10.

Meh. See, that's what I was afraid of. Ah well.



My main issue with Champion of Gobbledygook is that you can't use its Rage with normal people casting (IIRC). Otherwise, Barbarian 5/Champion of Gargleblaster 2/Divine Crusader 10/Champion of Galapagos 3 would have been a really sweet build.

Well, yes, that's the case, but probably for good reason. I mean, you're not supposed to be able to rage-cast anyway, let alone simply ignoring that for a whole spell list with no penalties or restrictions (like rage mage).

Problem is, you still can't Concentrate while you're raging, which means no casting defensively.

[Psyren]

Without a specific caster level in the text, we fall back on the general rule for caster level:


Caster Level
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

Thus, a CoG's caster level ranges from 1-10 pre-epic, depending on the level you've achieved in the PrC. You can boost this further with the Practiced Spellcaster feat, and items such as an ioun stone or prayer beads.

The bad news is that without such boosts, they're pretty easy to dispel. The good news of course is that even if they get hit with a dispel, they're still a raging barbarian.


Finally, CoG is indeed a great PrC, but I didn't see a mention of Runescarred Berserker (Unapproachable East) in your opening post of good Barbarian PrCs. If you want a magi-barb without being a goody-two-shoes, that's a good way to go. (Though I personally prefer the CoG.)


Ninja'ed, but I had the quote :smallcool:

[NeoSeraphi]

Without a specific caster level in the text, we fall back on the general rule for caster level:



Thus, a CoG's caster level ranges from 1-10 pre-epic, depending on the level you've achieved in the PrC. You can boost this further with the Practiced Spellcaster feat, and items such as an ioun stone or prayer beads.

The bad news is that without such boosts, they're pretty easy to dispel. The good news of course is that even if they get hit with a dispel, they're still a raging barbarian.


Finally, CoG is indeed a great PrC, but I didn't see a mention of Runescarred Berserker (Unapproachable East) in your opening post of good Barbarian PrCs. If you want a magi-barb without being a goody-two-shoes, that's a good way to go. (Though I personally prefer the CoG.)


Ninja'ed, but I had the quote :smallcool:

Whoa, Psyren, your new avatar looks like Jace Beleren took a level of cleric and found a way to Persist create water.

The Practiced Spellcaster feat is pretty nice, I suppose.

And Runescarred Berserker is indeed good, but it's in a campaign-specific book so I left it out of the discussions.

Sad that there aren't that many good barbarian PrCs. (Bear warrior, frenzied berserker, rage mage, CoG, and runescarred. There's Eye of Gruumsh, but that class isn't particularly good. And there's nothing good in Core...)

[Psyren]

Whoa, Psyren, your new avatar looks like Jace Beleren took a level of cleric and found a way to Persist create water.

He seems to be a psychic plague doctor. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_doctor) Which I find a pretty intriguing concept, in addition to being a badass visual. (I should ask Crimmy what his inspiration was.) Anyway, thank you!


And Runescarred Berserker is indeed good, but it's in a campaign-specific book so I left it out of the discussions.

True, but their spell list is so powerful that they're worth the effort to try and convince your DM to allow them. Heal and Polymorph alone justify the class, never mind gems like AMF, Restoration, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin and Death Ward.

The bad news is that they don't get bonus spells, but a CoG's Wis score is unlikely to be all that high either.

[Cieyrin]

Whoa, Psyren, your new avatar looks like Jace Beleren took a level of cleric and found a way to Persist create water.

The Practiced Spellcaster feat is pretty nice, I suppose.

And Runescarred Berserker is indeed good, but it's in a campaign-specific book so I left it out of the discussions.

Sad that there aren't that many good barbarian PrCs. (Bear warrior, frenzied berserker, rage mage, CoG, and runescarred. There's Eye of Gruumsh, but that class isn't particularly good. And there's nothing good in Core...)

Rage Mage isn't actually good, though. The Dwarven Axe Idiots (can't remember the actual name, just the translated one from RoF) are kinda in the same category as Eye of Gruumsh: useful for dips but not something to focus on.

While not exactly a Barbarian PrC, you'd be remiss to not remember Deepwarden, as Con to AC is just that good, provided you use regular rage and not a variant.

[Akal Saris]

Frostrager from Frostburn is another decent barbarian PrC, as is Thayan Gladiator (I think that's the name?) from Champions of Ruin.

[Psyren]

Totem Rager from MoI is nice too - an excellent combo of power, flavor and versatility.

[NeoSeraphi]

Totem Rager from MoI is nice too - an excellent combo of power, flavor and versatility.

Yes, it's definitely a strong and nice class. It's just too bad so few DMs actually understand incarnum...


Rage Mage isn't actually good, though.

True, I just added it because it hurt me about how small that list actually was.


While not exactly a Barbarian PrC, you'd be remiss to not remember Deepwarden, as Con to AC is just that good, provided you use regular rage and not a variant.

I guess, but only if you're not using the Shock Trooper feat...as if you are, it doesn't matter how high your AC is anyway...

[marcielle]

Don't forget that dispelling is ONLY a problem if you are going up against spellcasters frequently. If you are fighting monster you have no need to really pump CL. Liches, IIRC have a lot of their CR tied up into their lich template so they shouldn't be able to dispel you all willynilly. Evil clerics and Necromancers...well an action spent dispelling you is one NOT spent casting Black Tentacles, buffing, nerfing or summoning random doom. So you break even in that case.

[NeoSeraphi]

Don't forget that dispelling is ONLY a problem if you are going up against spellcasters frequently. If you are fighting monster you have no need to really pump CL. Liches, IIRC have a lot of their CR tied up into their lich template so they shouldn't be able to dispel you all willynilly. Evil clerics and Necromancers...well an action spent dispelling you is one NOT spent casting Black Tentacles, buffing, nerfing or summoning random doom. So you break even in that case.

CL is useful for other things, though, like duration, or the total size of the bonus (for spells like divine favor) as well as for penetrating spell resistance.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Frenzied Berserker is simply a TPK waiting to happen, the moment he fails a Will save and wipes out the party in one round.

Intelligent opponents will snipe it from stealth, making him continually make that will save for having taken damage. Eventually, it WILL fail, and you WILL TPK. It's not a matter of 'if', it's a matter of 'when'.

Friends don't let friends do FB.

[Flickerdart]

Frenzied Berserker is simply a TPK waiting to happen, the moment he fails a Will save and wipes out the party in one round.

Intelligent opponents will snipe it from stealth, making him continually make that will save for having taken damage. Eventually, it WILL fail, and you WILL TPK. It's not a matter of 'if', it's a matter of 'when'.

Friends don't let friends do FB.
If they know that the scary barbarian will indeed flip out and kill his friends as soon as he's shot, which isn't a given. And a party that doesn't have a contingency for this (like marbles or Calm Emotions) is bad at adventuring.

[Psyren]

If they know that the scary barbarian will indeed flip out and kill his friends as soon as he's shot, which isn't a given. And a party that doesn't have a contingency for this (like marbles or Calm Emotions) is bad at adventuring.

Well, the beauty is that they don't have to; merely that the huge scary guy with the greatsword is not to be ****ed with up close, so they take potshots at him from a vantage point or the shadows, then watch in awe as he chops his former allies into adventurer fragments.

Also, his allies may not know he's a FB either. It's not like he'll say "By the way, my comrades, I entered the Frenzied Berserker prestige class, so keep thy marbles close at hand lest I lose my own."

[Kantolin]

It's not like he'll say "By the way, my comrades, I entered the Frenzied Berserker prestige class, so keep thy marbles close at hand lest I lose my own."

Stop winning, Psyren! We're all out of internets to give you! :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'd like to fourth or fifth 'no frenzied berserker'. My group is admittedly quite low-op, but like... we had a FB for awhile. Ignoring the 'why are you traveling with someone who's remarkably likely to attempt to murder you' aspect, there were times where turn order screwed up attempts to detain him. That led to sequences of, 'Sigh, I could kill the enemy wizard, but then our barbarian will kill me as I'm closest and he goes immediately after the wizard, so I let the wizard go nuts another round'.

Not to mention, precisely once, we had an enemy (from the thieves organization we'd been assaulting) use our tactics to basically nerf him to uselessness. They'd noted that we always used marbles to stop him, so they tried throwing marbles themselves and were impressed just how effectively it stopped the angry man from murdering them - and if he used any logic to get out of the marbles they'd never work again.

[Flickerdart]

Well, the beauty is that they don't have to; merely that the huge scary guy with the greatsword is not to be ****ed with up close, so they take potshots at him from a vantage point or the shadows, then watch in awe as he chops his former allies into adventurer fragments.

Also, his allies may not know he's a FB either. It's not like he'll say "By the way, my comrades, I entered the Frenzied Berserker prestige class, so keep thy marbles close at hand lest I lose my own."
Unlike his enemies, his allies are likely to have already experienced his hair trigger before, and he's also very likely to be aware of that particular drawback himself.

[Psyren]

Unlike his enemies, his allies are likely to have already experienced his hair trigger before, and he's also very likely to be aware of that particular drawback himself.

And the first time it happens? Should he join the party with a pouch of diamonds in hand? What if the cleric is the first victim?

[Mooncrow]

Stop winning, Psyren! We're all out of internets to give you! :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'd like to fourth or fifth 'no frenzied berserker'. My group is admittedly quite low-op, but like... we had a FB for awhile. Ignoring the 'why are you traveling with someone who's remarkably likely to attempt to murder you' aspect, there were times where turn order screwed up attempts to detain him. That led to sequences of, 'Sigh, I could kill the enemy wizard, but then our barbarian will kill me as I'm closest and he goes immediately after the wizard, so I let the wizard go nuts another round'.

Not to mention, precisely once, we had an enemy (from the thieves organization we'd been assaulting) use our tactics to basically nerf him to uselessness. They'd noted that we always used marbles to stop him, so they tried throwing marbles themselves and were impressed just how effectively it stopped the angry man from murdering them - and if he used any logic to get out of the marbles they'd never work again.

Why was the FB attacking you and not the wizard again?

[sonofzeal]

I'd argue that Righteous Wrath is (RAI at least) intended to stop things like Frenzy's TPKs. I think the whole thing's due to a change in how Rage worked between 3.0 to 3.5, but it seems entirely reasonable, and in keeping with other feats that affect Rage and Frenzy equally, to allow it. Not strictly RAW, but a reasonable and simple extension thereof.

And really, a feat to keep your Frenzied Berserker from TPKing is a good one, and even that added feat tax on the PrC still leaves it worth picking. Especially because it opens up Champion of Gwynharwyf, as previously stated.

[Kantolin]

Why was the FB attacking you and not the wizard again?

The turn order was something like:

- PC's turn
- Enemy Wizard's turn
- Frenzied Berserker's turn
- Other PC's turns, no more enemies alive

So if the PC killed the enemy wizard, the Frenzied Berserker would get the next turn and kill some other PC (In this case, probably him) due to still being in frenzy. If he didn't, the enemy wizard would continue hassling us.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If they know that the scary barbarian will indeed flip out and kill his friends as soon as he's shot, which isn't a given. And a party that doesn't have a contingency for this (like marbles or Calm Emotions) is bad at adventuring.

Any contingency you use to shut him down will be used by your opponents to shut him down, thus negating the effectiveness of the character.

[Tvtyrant]

Any contingency you use to shut him down will be used by your opponents to shut him down, thus negating the effectiveness of the character.

And? If they spend all their energy trying to shut down your party member, they are leaving themselves open to the rest. And in the Calm Emotions example, it simply removes their rage. Exactly as it would another barbarian.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And? If they spend all their energy trying to shut down your party member, they are leaving themselves open to the rest. And in the Calm Emotions example, it simply removes their rage. Exactly as it would another barbarian.

Since when does 'one of you yutzes toss out some marbles to shut down the big nasty while I cast the spells on the rest of the party' constitutes 'all their energy'?

[Tvtyrant]

Since when does 'one of you yutzes toss out some marbles to shut down the big nasty while I cast the spells on the rest of the party' constitutes 'all their energy'?

That is a rather specific solution to the problem. How many enemies typically carry around marbles to combat their foes? This sounds like a targeted strategy, at which point I have to point out that they could as easily be enervating your casters to take away their casting or blinding your archer. Except both of those abilities are in fact useful against most opponents, whereas the marbles.. Usually aren't.

[Psyren]

- Grease, however, is useful in a variety of situations. Enemies can use it too.

- If anyone manages to see you tossing marbles around after a fight to turn Conan off again (say, the aforementioned sniper that drove him batty in the first place) that would be useful info to take back to the cultists that are expecting you.


I'm not going to say "never use FB" but I will say that Barbarians have so many good options to PrC into that it should never top the list.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That is a rather specific solution to the problem. How many enemies typically carry around marbles to combat their foes? This sounds like a targeted strategy, at which point I have to point out that they could as easily be enervating your casters to take away their casting or blinding your archer. Except both of those abilities are in fact useful against most opponents, whereas the marbles.. Usually aren't.

Do you expect your opponents to never use tactics against you? Do you expect your opponents to never do as much research as the PC's do? Particularly when they are led by a powerful caster capable of divinations who would rather not be unseated by a pack of legendary warriors who have cut a swath through the countryside already?

[Tvtyrant]

Do you expect your opponents to never use tactics against you? Do you expect your opponents to never do as much research as the PC's do? Particularly when they are led by a powerful caster capable of divinations who would rather not be unseated by a pack of legendary warriors who have cut a swath through the countryside already?

No, I expect that almost anyone who is being specifically targeted by an opponent with divination to be rendered useless. Unless we are going into meta-caster games of thirty layers of defenses, but in that case the FB is only as useless as every other mundane. I gave examples of exactly that, and could give more if you like.

And the reason I used Mind Blank as my example is that it isn't rendered toothless by flight like marbles/grease/entangle are. Flight is part of standard optimization, so it seems odd that we are assuming the barbarian is landlocked.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Do you expect your opponents to never use tactics against you? Do you expect your opponents to never do as much research as the PC's do? Particularly when they are led by a powerful caster capable of divinations who would rather not be unseated by a pack of legendary warriors who have cut a swath through the countryside already?

And they're going to shut down the guy with the legendary battle frenzy... with marbles.

How do they even know he can't keep balance?

[sonofzeal]

And they're going to shut down the guy with the legendary battle frenzy... with marbles.

How do they even know he can't keep balance?
Even if he can keep balance, it makes him automatically vulnerable to sneak-attack. Most of my Rogues carry Marbles with them, you never know when they'll be useful.

[Psyren]

Flight is part of standard optimization, so it seems odd that we are assuming the barbarian is landlocked.

If you give the Frenzier flight, how do you plan on stopping him from swooping in and decapitating your wizard? Not all buffs can be dismissed.

[Rising Phoenix]

Isn't the default CL 1/class level? So a Barbarian 10/Champion of Gargleblargle 10 would have a CL of 10.

My main issue with Champion of Gobbledygook is that you can't use its Rage with normal people casting (IIRC). Otherwise, Barbarian 5/Champion of Gargleblaster 2/Divine Crusader 10/Champion of Galapagos 3 would have been a really sweet build.

Ah yes Champion of Galapagos the awesome prestige class that grants you access to a giant tortoise mount and a finch familiar...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And they're going to shut down the guy with the legendary battle frenzy... with marbles.

How do they even know he can't keep balance?

See aforementioned "led by a caster with divination"...

[Tvtyrant]

If you give the Frenzier flight, how do you plan on stopping him from swooping in and decapitating your wizard? Not all buffs can be dismissed.

Dispel, Gaseous Form, Calm Emotions. Dispel drops them to the ground, and your original tactic works. Gaseous Form makes them unable to attack, and Calm Emotions ends the rage.

[Psyren]

Dispel, Gaseous Form, Calm Emotions. Dispel drops them to the ground, and your original tactic works. Gaseous Form makes them unable to attack, and Calm Emotions ends the rage.

Ok, you dispelled him and now it's his turn. He ran in and hacked you up.

Or did you mean Quickened Dispel? A 7th-level slot burned because somebody in the party wanted to play Unther the Uncontrollable?

All these counters to Unther's lack of social skills miss the point that you shouldn't need counters for your own team.

[Kantolin]

This also presumes that you carefully manage your enemies such that whomever can incapacitate the frenzied berserker goes before the frenzied berserker after all the enemies are dead.

So like... what happens if the last remaining enemy goes 'sod this' and dimension doors away or something... and then it's the FB's turn.

Or, the wizard opts to I dunno baleful polymorph the enemy. Now your rogue can get a turn, then comes the FB, and your rogue usually uses marbles to solve him but can't at the moment since FB is flying.

Or whatever. These situations don't necessarily come up terribly often, but they only really need to come up say twice.

Edit: As like... it might not be a TPK in any of these circumstances. Say the rogue UMDs a scroll of dimension door or something and blinks out, the FB goes and overmurders the say wizard and then the other people either get away or whatever. Now you have to go revive the wizard, he's lost a level, and is probably less than psyched at his frenzied berserker... 'buddy'. How often does that have to happen before you opt not to continue to travel with the guy?

[Tvtyrant]

Ok, you dispelled him and now it's his turn. He ran in and hacked you up.

Or did you mean Quickened Dispel? A 7th-level slot burned because somebody in the party wanted to play Unther the Uncontrollable?

All these counters to Unther's lack of social skills miss the point that you shouldn't need counters for your own team.

Let us take the best of the three options I gave; Calm Emotions. This is a 2nd level slot on two different lists. Would you be unwilling to use a second level spell slot to buff the barbarian? How about using it to keep the Wizard alive when it is going under and needs to be stabilized? The absolutely tiny expenditure it takes to keep the barbarian from killing the party seems rather trivial to me, especially since you get considerably more from the class then a second level slot used to buff or heal would get.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Let us take the best of the three options I gave; Calm Emotions. This is a 2nd level slot on two different lists. Would you be unwilling to use a second level spell slot to buff the barbarian? How about using it to keep the Wizard alive when it is going under and needs to be stabilized? The absolutely tiny expenditure it takes to keep the barbarian from killing the party seems rather trivial to me, especially since you get considerably more from the class then a second level slot used to buff or heal would get.

Here's the problem:

1) Calm Emotions has a Will save (negates). If you stack his will save so he's not failing his Will save to go nuts except on a natural 1, he's going to shrug this off as well. Sure, it won't happen every time. But that natural 1 goes off... then you need a natural 1 to AVOID a TPK? Yea... do you feel lucky?

2) Being able to have the action necessary to do it after the last opponent falls.

3) It's mind-affecting. So are you both going to have him tank his Will save to be controllable, AND be not immune to mind-affecting? Makes it too easy to turn him back on his allies WITHOUT needing all opponents to be dead first.

[Psyren]

Let us take the best of the three options I gave; Calm Emotions. This is a 2nd level slot on two different lists. Would you be unwilling to use a second level spell slot to buff the barbarian? How about using it to keep the Wizard alive when it is going under and needs to be stabilized? The absolutely tiny expenditure it takes to keep the barbarian from killing the party seems rather trivial to me, especially since you get considerably more from the class then a second level slot used to buff or heal would get.

Yet, to be able to get this off, you have to leave your FB vulnerable to Mind-Affecting. Meaning he could end up playing for the other team anyway with his phenomenal (not really) will save. You also can't put SR on him. These are gaps that no other PrC forces you to worry about.

And it still requires the cleric/bard to go before the FB. (I mean, you can calm him down after he's smeared the wizard, but it could still put a strain on the friendship at that point.)


Ninja'd by Shneekey

[maysarahs]

Isn't the default CL 1/class level? So a Barbarian 10/Champion of Gargleblargle 10 would have a CL of 10.

My main issue with Champion of Gobbledygook is that you can't use its Rage with normal people casting (IIRC). Otherwise, Barbarian 5/Champion of Gargleblaster 2/Divine Crusader 10/Champion of Galapagos 3 would have been a really sweet build.

I am sorry for getting off topic, but this has to be my favorite post ever. Bar none.

Thank you Flickerdart.

[sonofzeal]

I am sorry for getting off topic, but this has to be my favorite post ever. Bar none.

Thank you Flickerdart.
Is it bad if I can spell Gwynharwyf correctly, without checking, and without any real difficulty? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

Gwyn - I have a friend named Gwyn - Har - nothing HARD there - Wyf - like the old form of "wife".

Gwyn-har-wyf.

Gwynharwyf. I don't see what the problem is. :smalltongue:




Now that said... Fharlanghn and Corellon Larethian? Yeeeah, imma gonna go with ctrl-c ctrl-v on those ones.

[NeoSeraphi]

Yeah, well, my frenzied berserkers all take the Righteous Fury feat and don't look back. If your DM doesn't rule that it works for Frenzying, well then you shouldn't be playing the class because the DM is not helping you prevent a TPK. (Generally speaking, though, I think Rage/Frenzy transparency is about as logical in a game as magic/psionic transparency)

[JackRackham]

On the fb thing(totalderail, btw), couldn't a wizard (assuming you have one) research/design a spell specifically to take the fb out of his frenzy? Given the potential specificity of the spell, I would think it could even be fairly low level with the potential to be cast as a contingency spell. Granted, the spell creation rules are in the DM guide so it'd be something you'd have to specifically discuss and work with your DM on, but I see that amaking perfect sense IC once the wizard has seen how out-of-control ape**** the fb gets. Also, I think the save would occur at casting, not at completion, so the fb could even willingly submit to the spell. I think, idk.

[NeoSeraphi]

Here's the problem:

1) Calm Emotions has a Will save (negates). If you stack his will save so he's not failing his Will save to go nuts except on a natural 1, he's going to shrug this off as well. Sure, it won't happen every time. But that natural 1 goes off... then you need a natural 1 to AVOID a TPK? Yea... do you feel lucky?


You can voluntarily fail ANY save.

[Psyren]

Yeah, well, my frenzied berserkers all take the Righteous Fury feat and don't look back. If your DM doesn't rule that it works for Frenzying, well then you shouldn't be playing the class because the DM is not helping you prevent a TPK. (Generally speaking, though, I think Rage/Frenzy transparency is about as logical in a game as magic/psionic transparency)


On the fb thing(totalderail, btw), couldn't a wizard (assuming you have one) research/design a spell specifically to take the fb out of his frenzy? Given the potential specificity of the spell, I would think it could even be fairly low level with the potential to be cast as a contingency spell


The DM can fix any poorly-designed class with houserules, even Monk. But you have to know where the problems are first before you can solve them, and that's where these discussions come into play.

And when there are so many better options out there for a Barbarian, any DM can be forgiven for just pointing to one of them and saying "use that instead."

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You can voluntarily fail ANY save.

Except when you are forced to treat your allies as opponents and will not voluntarily fail a saving throw that will cripple you right when you are surrounded by opponents...

[NeoSeraphi]

Except when you are forced to treat your allies as opponents and will not voluntarily fail a saving throw that will cripple you right when you are surrounded by opponents...

That's debatable, I suppose. The text of Frenzy says "You must attack the nearest creature". It doesn't say "You don't have allies anymore". Assuming that you only have to treat the nearest creature as your enemy, the party warblade or knight or whatever can walk up and take the total defense action while the cleric pops his calm emotions from Medium range.

Besides, failing one Will save doesn't make it a TPK. You can save the next turn and only have messed up one of your guys. Or, since you're still technically in control of your own character, you can Full Power Attack without using the Heedless Charge ability, making your to-hit incredibly ridiculously pathetically low (Weapon enhancement+Str)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's debatable, I suppose. The text of Frenzy says "You must attack the nearest creature". It doesn't say "You don't have allies anymore". Assuming that you only have to treat the nearest creature as your enemy, the party warblade or knight or whatever can walk up and take the total defense action while the cleric pops his calm emotions from Medium range. Fighting to the best of your ability is fighting to the best of your ability. Removing your rage in the middle of a fight is crippling. No.


Besides, failing one Will save doesn't make it a TPK. You can save the next turn and only have messed up one of your guys. Or, since you're still technically in control of your own character, you can Full Power Attack without using the Heedless Charge ability, making your to-hit incredibly ridiculously pathetically low (Weapon enhancement+Str)
Again, fight to the best of your ability. Again, no. Pouncebarian says TPK.

[NeoSeraphi]

Again, fight to the best of your ability. Again, no. Pouncebarian says TPK.

Pouncebarian says kill ONE MEMBER of your party. How are you going to slaughter the entire party with one turn?

[sonofzeal]

Yeah, well, my frenzied berserkers all take the Righteous Fury feat and don't look back. If your DM doesn't rule that it works for Frenzying, well then you shouldn't be playing the class because the DM is not helping you prevent a TPK. (Generally speaking, though, I think Rage/Frenzy transparency is about as logical in a game as magic/psionic transparency)
Agreed entirely. This is what Righteous Fury was intended to do.

[Cieyrin]

Wait, wait, wait...what kind of Frenzied Berserker doesn't stack up on their Will save so they can manage to snap out of their berserk fury when all the threats are gone? They have that flat DC 20 will save to snap out of it as a free action every round if they choose to do that. Why would they have that clause in there to just be ignored for 'fighting to the best of their ability'? And it's not like Barbarians don't have the tools necessary to build up on that. Steadfast Determination with a high Con (something every barbarian invests in anyways or should), Iron Will via the Otyugh Hole, Cloak of Resistance, a Furious weapon all stacks on there to get their saves to a decent level.

Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 1 has +2 base, takes flaws to get Steadfast Determination in place from the get go with a Con of 16 or so, Cloak of Resistance +1 or higher and the Otyugh Hole has a Will save of +12 while Frenzied Raging, which gives us a 65% chance of not TPKing the party AT MINIMUM. A Furious weapon (I'd suggest enchanting a spiked gauntlet with it to save you room on your main weapon) amps it up another +2 and Reckless Rage another +1. This isn't high optimization, either, these are common tools that any rager or any martial type should heavily consider. The only scaling save is the damage one and even then, if you lose out on Frenzy for the day, you still have Rage to back you up, with which you aren't messing people up that you don't want to, which you don't need Righteous Wrath to curb for you, since 3.5 rage doesn't have any of the restrictions it supposedly alleviates.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wait, wait, wait...what kind of Frenzied Berserker doesn't stack up on their Will save so they can manage to snap out of their berserk fury when all the threats are gone? They have that flat DC 20 will save to snap out of it as a free action every round if they choose to do that. Why would they have that clause in there to just be ignored for 'fighting to the best of their ability'? And it's not like Barbarians don't have the tools necessary to build up on that. Steadfast Determination with a high Con (something every barbarian invests in anyways or should), Iron Will via the Otyugh Hole, Cloak of Resistance, a Furious weapon all stacks on there to get their saves to a decent level.

Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 1 has +2 base, takes flaws to get Steadfast Determination in place from the get go with a Con of 16 or so, Cloak of Resistance +1 or higher and the Otyugh Hole has a Will save of +12 while Frenzied Raging, which gives us a 65% chance of not TPKing the party AT MINIMUM. A Furious weapon (I'd suggest enchanting a spiked gauntlet with it to save you room on your main weapon) amps it up another +2 and Reckless Rage another +1. This isn't high optimization, either, these are common tools that any rager or any martial type should heavily consider. The only scaling save is the damage one and even then, if you lose out on Frenzy for the day, you still have Rage to back you up, with which you aren't messing people up that you don't want to, which you don't need Righteous Wrath to curb for you, since 3.5 rage doesn't have any of the restrictions it supposedly alleviates.

Yes, but Shneekey is talking about rolling a natural 1. If you roll a natural 1, you will fail, and you will attack your party. Meanwhile, I contend that even if you don't have the Righteous Fury feat, you can't kill your entire party in one round, and next round you will make your save, so it's not that big a deal.

[Psyren]

Yes, but Shneekey is talking about rolling a natural 1. If you roll a natural 1, you will fail, and you will attack your party. Meanwhile, I contend that even if you don't have the Righteous Fury feat, you can't kill your entire party in one round, and next round you will make your save, so it's not that big a deal.

...Except for the one guy you smeared, who might even be the cleric, but in either case is probably not inviting you to their birthday party anymore.

[NeoSeraphi]

...Except for the one guy you smeared, who might even be the cleric, but in either case is probably not inviting you to their birthday party anymore.

Yeah, and that's why I said "If your DM doesn't let you use Righteous Fury when you Frenzy, you shouldn't play an FB".

Meh. If a prepared caster can't prepare a spell to protect himself from certain death for one round, he deserves to die anyway. What good is all that divine power if it can't save you from an angry guy with an axe?

[Hiro Protagonest]

See aforementioned "led by a caster with divination"...

Does this seem like the correct train of thought for a high-level spellcaster?

"What is the barbarian's secret weakness?"
"He can't keep his balance while raging."
"I'll use marbles!"

Nope, the caster will default to a spell, Grease if he wants to not spend much time on it, not knowing that Grease follows different rules than marbles.

[Psyren]

Yeah, and that's why I said "If your DM doesn't let you use Righteous Fury when you Frenzy, you shouldn't play an FB".

Meh. If a prepared caster can't prepare a spell to protect himself from certain death for one round, he deserves to die anyway. What good is all that divine power if it can't save you from an angry guy with an axe?

Typically the guy with the axe isn't on your team though.

[NeoSeraphi]

Typically the guy with the axe isn't on your team though.

But it's easy to fix. You let the FB (or someone who goes after the FB but before the caster) deliver the final blow. Then, just in case, the caster drops a summon monster I right next to the FB.

No save to negate. It is a legitimate target, and no one cares if the FB slaughters it.

[OracleofWuffing]

Heck, by the time you can enter Frenzied Berserker, doesn't every theoretically optimized Wizard have Rope Trick regardless of the party?

[Psyren]

But it's easy to fix. You let the FB (or someone who goes after the FB but before the caster) deliver the final blow. Then, just in case, the caster drops a summon monster I right next to the FB.

That leads to the exact problem Kantolin mentioned earlier, where you have to keep a potentially dangerous enemy alive longer just so you can better control your equally-dangerous party member. Even more hilariously, he may simply escape, finish his ritual (Age of Worms anyone?) or something equally annoying.

Do you honestly see no problem with this?


No save to negate. It is a legitimate target, and no one cares if the FB slaughters it.

Frenzy targets are determined randomly, and most summons take a whole round to show up. Unless you're - yet again - burning metamagic to neutralize your own psychotic teammate.


Heck, by the time you can enter Frenzied Berserker, doesn't every theoretically optimized Wizard have Rope Trick regardless of the party?

So you get the rope out (move action), cast rope trick (standard), get decapitated while you stare at it...

[OracleofWuffing]

Frenzy targets are determined randomly, and most summons take a whole round to show up.
Frenzy targets are determined randomly after the Frenzied Berserker has ran out of enemies to target and the nearest creatures are equidistant. You could even summon the monster earlier in the combat (to, say, actually fight the bad guy), and just make sure it's standing next to the Berserker before the last enemy falls.


So you get the rope out (move action), cast rope trick (standard), get decapitated while you stare at it...
No need to get the rope out, tie it around your wrist/waist/leg/uvula, you can touch it at any time without spending an action to draw it. Surprisingly, Use Rope does have an entry for tying a rope around yourself using only one hand. Shouldn't be too hard to get a rope around yourself by level 6.

Heck, make sure your shoelaces are 5 feet long, and go to town.

[Cieyrin]

Yes, but Shneekey is talking about rolling a natural 1. If you roll a natural 1, you will fail, and you will attack your party. Meanwhile, I contend that even if you don't have the Righteous Fury feat, you can't kill your entire party in one round, and next round you will make your save, so it's not that big a deal.

So something's unplayable b/c 5% of the time you fail a save and then next round, when the Berserker frenzies, when you can roll a save to snap out of it against the static DC as a free action, which we're primed to do? The disconnect I'm seeing is that the damage-to-Frenzy just means you frenzy next round, not 'White Raven Tactics, its the Berserker's turn, let me kill somebody!' So, basically, you have 2 chances to knock yourself out of it before you have to worry about making somebody into Chunky Salsa. That's .25% of the time that we'll roll 2 1s in a row. Not impossible but not something I'd whine about but then I haven't played with a Frenzied Berserker in the party, just heard about theoretical Berserkers, which I think is true of the majority of us in any case.

On a different note, while Moment of Perfect Mind won't work while Frenzied, you can use it for that Damage-to-Frenzy save, which makes the save not autofail on a 1 and will tend to have a higher value than our save will. Not a bad investment for a FB, methinks. :smallwink:


But it's easy to fix. You let the FB (or someone who goes after the FB but before the caster) deliver the final blow. Then, just in case, the caster drops a summon monster I right next to the FB.

No save to negate. It is a legitimate target, and no one cares if the FB slaughters it.

Supreme Cleave makes me worry about this course of action, as he 5' steps after nuking the celestial badger and THEN kills somebody else. Better go with a wand of Rapid Summon Monster 3 so you can summon a couple targets and make it come out of the FB's share, since that's a 1 round casting with the wand. Alternatively, Summon Elemental means not spending spell slots keeping the FB entertained till he makes his save, plus it's a standard action summon, so no delay there.

[NeoSeraphi]

That leads to the exact problem Kantolin mentioned earlier, where you have to keep a potentially dangerous enemy alive longer just so you can better control your equally-dangerous party member. Even more hilariously, he may simply escape, finish his ritual (Age of Worms anyone?) or something equally annoying.

Do you honestly see no problem with this?


I honestly don't. Because I almost never roll natural 1s to begin with, and I don't really see why a 5% chance of possibly killing one of my party members should stop me from playing a class that actually gives melee enough brute strength to dish out relevant damage at high levels.

[Fax Celestis]

I still prefer Runescarred Berserker (UE) over both Champion of Gwynharwyf and Frenzied Berserker. Wis-based divine casting usable while raging, continued DR and Greater Rage, and a rather decent spell list. Couples well with Spellcarved Soldier (RoE), but you have to get some arcane spellcasting from somewhere to get in. Warforged Lion Totem Barbarian 3/Duskblade 3/Spellcarved Soldier 3/Runescarred Berserker 10/Spellcarved Soldier +1 is an interesting and unusual barbarian build.

[NeoSeraphi]

I still prefer Runescarred Berserker (UE) over both Champion of Gwynharwyf and Frenzied Berserker. Wis-based divine casting usable while raging, continued DR and Greater Rage, and a rather decent spell list. Couples well with Spellcarved Soldier (RoE), but you have to get some arcane spellcasting from somewhere to get in. Warforged Lion Totem Barbarian 3/Duskblade 3/Spellcarved Soldier 3/Runescarred Berserker 10/Spellcarved Soldier +1 is an interesting and unusual barbarian build.

But CoG has all that. Continued DR, Progressed Rage, Wis Based divine casting with a nice spell list, and you can use it while raging. It also gets energy resistance, for some awesome reason.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I honestly don't. Because I almost never roll natural 1s to begin with, and I don't really see why a 5% chance of possibly killing one of my party members should stop me from playing a class that actually gives melee enough brute strength to dish out relevant damage at high levels.

Because there's plenty of other ways to dish out relevant damage at high levels without a 5% chance of a TPK.

Let's put it this way:

Every encounter you are in has a 5% chance that you will TPK your own party.

How? Well, how do you cut a swath through your opponents? Most FB builds I've seen come with Spiked Chain + other reach-enhancing methods to be able to kill as many opponents as you can. Unfortunately, in this case, you're cutting down as many allies as possible in one round.

So, every combat has a 5% chance. Every. Single. One. How many times have your character gotten into combat. Probably a lot more than twenty. Probably a lot more than a hundred. Sure, you rarely roll a 1, but when it DOES come up (as is statically significant over the career of an adventurer), the campaign ENDS.

In other words, you have a GAME OVER screen prepped and ready in every low-level mook encounter you have. You could have swarms of little 1 hd kobolds being thrown at you, and it's still a 5% chance of a TPK.

In other words, the most dangerous thing to the party will be the FB, because he's got a flat 5% chance of TPKing the party, and you get to the point where that's even more dangerous than the BBEG you're trying to kill.

[NeoSeraphi]

Because there's plenty of other ways to dish out relevant damage at high levels without a 5% chance of a TPK.

Let's put it this way:

Every encounter you are in has a 5% chance that you will TPK your own party.

How? Well, how do you cut a swath through your opponents? Most FB builds I've seen come with Spiked Chain + other reach-enhancing methods to be able to kill as many opponents as you can. Unfortunately, in this case, you're cutting down as many allies as possible in one round.

So, every combat has a 5% chance. Every. Single. One. How many times have your character gotten into combat. Probably a lot more than twenty. Probably a lot more than a hundred. Sure, you rarely roll a 1, but when it DOES come up (as is statically significant over the career of an adventurer), the campaign ENDS.

In other words, you have a GAME OVER screen prepped and ready in every low-level mook encounter you have. You could have swarms of little 1 hd kobolds being thrown at you, and it's still a 5% chance of a TPK.

In other words, the most dangerous thing to the party will be the FB, because he's got a flat 5% chance of TPKing the party, and you get to the point where that's even more dangerous than the BBEG you're trying to kill.

No. He doesn't. Seriously, he doesn't. You can't TPK in one round. You just can't. You keep throwing that term around, but you're only going to kill ONE MEMBER of your party!

[Fax Celestis]

CoG also has that pesky alignment problem, and Runescarred Berserker has a better spell list (IMO).

Compare:


1st Level: bless, bless weapon, cure light wounds, detect poison, detect undead, divine favor, divine sacrifice*, endure elements, lesser restoration, magic weapon, protection from evil, read magic, remove fear, resistance, virtue.
2nd Level: bull’s strength, delay poison, eagle’s splendor, owl’s wisdom, remove paralysis, resist energy, shield other, warcry*.
3rd Level: blessed sight*, cure moderate wounds, daylight, discern lies, dispel magic, magic circle against evil, prayer, remove blindness/deafness, remove curse.
4th Level: blood of the martyr*, break enchantment, cure serious wounds, death ward, dispel evil, freedom of movement, glory of the martyr*, holy sword, neutralize poison, restoration, sword of conscience*.


1st level—cure moderate wounds, divine favor, low-light vision*, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, resist elements, see invisibility, true strike.
2nd level—bull’s strength, cure serious wounds, darkvision, endurance, invisibility, keen edge, protection from elements.
3rd level—air walk, cure critical wounds, death ward, divine power, freedom of movement, greater magic weapon, haste.
4th level—improved invisibility, neutralize poison, restoration, righteous might, spell immunity, stoneskin.
5th level—antimagic field, dimension door, heal, polymorph self, spell resistance.

[NeoSeraphi]

I think you missed the divine favor on the CoG's spell list, as you underlined it in RB but not in CoG's.

CoG doesn't need divine power because it keeps its Full BAB. +6 Strength isn't worth it for a class that's going to have a +6 Belt of Giant Strength anyway.

CoG also gets freedom of movement, though it gets it as a 4th level spell instead of a 3rd.

However, I will conceded that Runescarred Berserker has some really strong higher level spells. I just don't want you to completely discount CoG.

"That pesky alignment restriction" also lets it qualify for sanctified spells, too.

[Fax Celestis]

Given the option between CoG and Runescarred, I'll take Runescarred every time. Still, it can be personal preference.

[Psyren]

"He'll only murder one of his friends! Can't you see that? It's just one little murder! The class is fine!"

I think we'll agree to disagree at this point :smalltongue:

[NeoSeraphi]

"He'll only murder one of his friends! Can't you see that? It's just one little murder! The class is fine!"

I think we'll agree to disagree at this point :smalltongue:

Okay, let me ask you one question though:

If Righteous Fury was allowed by your DM to work during Frenzy, and allowed you to maul your enemies and only lightly scrape your friends, would you agree that it's a cool class thematically and fun to play, and also powerful enough to hold its own in a tier 3 party?

[Cieyrin]

Because there's plenty of other ways to dish out relevant damage at high levels without a 5% chance of a TPK.

Let's put it this way:

Every encounter you are in has a 5% chance that you will TPK your own party.

How? Well, how do you cut a swath through your opponents? Most FB builds I've seen come with Spiked Chain + other reach-enhancing methods to be able to kill as many opponents as you can. Unfortunately, in this case, you're cutting down as many allies as possible in one round.

So, every combat has a 5% chance. Every. Single. One. How many times have your character gotten into combat. Probably a lot more than twenty. Probably a lot more than a hundred. Sure, you rarely roll a 1, but when it DOES come up (as is statically significant over the career of an adventurer), the campaign ENDS.

In other words, you have a GAME OVER screen prepped and ready in every low-level mook encounter you have. You could have swarms of little 1 hd kobolds being thrown at you, and it's still a 5% chance of a TPK.

In other words, the most dangerous thing to the party will be the FB, because he's got a flat 5% chance of TPKing the party, and you get to the point where that's even more dangerous than the BBEG you're trying to kill.

But it's not 5%. The Damage-To-Frenzy save says you Frenzy but that doesn't make it your turn right then and there. When your turn comes up, you still have the End Frenzy Early save, so you have not 1 but 2 saves against killing somebody you don't want to and that second save is against a fixed save. As I illustrated earlier, there are easy things you can do to boost your save by the time you get to Frenzying. If you're voluntarily Frenzying and combat has come to a close, you've probably got Rage up, due to Rage and Frenzy being in similar frequency, and thus the higher Will save to say "No, I'm done for today."

Is it bloody annoying to have that 'Waste a Frenzy' clause there? Yes, I think we've beat that topic into the ground. It's an ability with consequences and there are powerful Barbarian PrCs out there without that drawback that you can pursue that don't require you to make investments to minimize said drawbacks. Does that make Frenzied Berserker obsolete? No, not necessarily. Just like not every table necessarily wants Cheaters of Mystra, Planar Shepherds or Commoners at the table, not every table will want to deal with a Frenzied Berserker. It's just a different sort of party balance problem that you want to talk to the party and DM about before you enter it. You don't just throw a Frenzied Berserker into a game any more than you do an Incantatrix or a War Hulk.

[Kantolin]

Okay, let me ask you one question though:

If Righteous Fury was allowed by your DM to work during Frenzy, and allowed you to maul your enemies and only lightly scrape your friends...

Yes, if your DM allows you to be a frenzied berserker who doesn't go berserk on his friends, the class would be fine. :P Or possibly a little powerful.

Never seen a DM who'd allow that myself, and it's come up.


Just like not every table necessarily wants Cheaters of Mystra, Planar Shepherds or Commoners at the table, not every table will want to deal with a Frenzied Berserker.

Those are... rather different problems, though. Nobody is saying 'Frenzied Berserkers are as unfair as Planar Shepards' or sommat. It's 'they attack the party'. Planar Shepards don't have 'I murder the party' built into the class, nor do Incantrixes have 'Every so often, whomever's closest to me dies randomly'. You can have various people do things about this - and all of them can be solved pretty easily (I summon monster 1 next to the FB! The enemy wizard uses the cone of cold he was going to do anyway killing it! The rogue shanks the wizard! Frenzied Berserker smash rogue for no particular reason other than he's a frenzied berserker so we're supposed to be okay with this! Party stops the frenzied berserker and demands he coughs up the diamonds and... uh, continues adventuring with the guy who doesn't play nice with his group for no particular reason! Why is this okay?! Next time it's the cleric - nobody else can revive people! Annoying!)

I mean... without 'attack allies', you'd still get the trouble of 'an enemy ever decides to use grease' or 'An enemy summons 1d4+1 hostile badgers between himself and the angry raging guy' or something, but I don't think anyone would have nearly as much problems with the class. Those are just additional icings on the 'Murder your friend' cake.

A PC who isn't a Frenzied Berserker who acts like a frenzied berserker is not generally okay either. Even most evil games don't have that - the ones that do tend to devolve immediately into sillyness - I have been in games which more or less opened (and then closed) with "I go murder the mayor!" "What?! I stop him from doing so." "I fireball both of them while they're fighting."

....a party of frenzied berserkers would be extraordinarily funny, though. ^_^ Get you to 'last man standing' and fast.

[Psyren]

Okay, let me ask you one question though:

If Righteous Fury was allowed by your DM to work during Frenzy, and allowed you to maul your enemies and only lightly scrape your friends, would you agree that it's a cool class thematically and fun to play, and also powerful enough to hold its own in a tier 3 party?

You mean Righteous Wrath, right? From BoED?
Well for starters, I don't want all my barbarians to be Good (especially not Supernatural-Good), but anyway, your queries:

1) I find just about all the other major Barbarian PrCs cooler than FB. Even with RW, all FB gives to the base Barbarian is the ability to hit things harder. I'm not opposed to mitigating the Frenzy drawback, but remove it and you just have a slightly crazier barbarian, which can be accomplished just fine by staying in the base class. It doesn't change the game the way spells, soulmelds or even brawling (FR, FoF) do.

2) It's still T4, so sure - it can play fine with T3s, especially the less martial ones like Incarnate or Factotum. RB, CoG and TR do happen to be T3 though (they can do more than bash things) so to me, it makes more sense to use one of them.

3) Not sure what you mean by "lightly scrape." Either you're going to plaster your party or somehow avoid going off on them, any middle ground would be due to their own defenses.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No. He doesn't. Seriously, he doesn't. You can't TPK in one round. You just can't. You keep throwing that term around, but you're only going to kill ONE MEMBER of your party!

How does doing several thousand damage per swing NOT end up with a TPK?

Last I checked, a high level barbarian has more than one attack per round. Also, last I checked, most melee builds have methods of hitting multiple targets, to deal with the million mob madness encounters. So yes... it IS a TPK.

And sure, if your GM allows you to handwave away the restriction on a PrC, then of course it's going to be strong. Some of us, however, like to play the game as written.

[Psyren]

You'll have to scatter as quickly as possible, because FBs get Supreme Cleave.

I don't necessarily think it would be a TPK either, but isn't being a PK bad enough? I know I'd be pissed if I was the "lucky" one to get split like a goose.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You'll have to scatter as quickly as possible, because FBs get Supreme Cleave.

I don't necessarily think it would be a TPK either, but isn't being a PK bad enough? I know I'd be pissed if I was the "lucky" one to get split like a goose.

The problem is that you won't have enough time to scatter. If you have enough time to scatter, you have enough time to deal with the problem and not get splatted. If nothing else, Resilient Sphere him until he calms down.

Your worry is that he finishes off the last opponent (likely), then turns on the party when he fails his Will save, before anyone else has a chance to act. When you've got the ability to make a full attack on a charge, you'd better hope that everyone is *ALREADY* split up, otherwise it will end up in a TPK, since everyone is 'one swing kill'.

[OracleofWuffing]

Oh, wow, this is something that'll get a book thrown at me for sure. :smalltongue:

If the Frenzied Berserker runs out of enemies for the Frenzy, she must attack the nearest creature without regard to the target's health. So, yeah, all the extra attacks and reach you have? You're going to direct them all at one creature, and even if you drop said creature on the first hit (since you don't care about your target's health), you're going to continue beating the dead horse. Squishy.

Edit: :smallconfused: And it also looks like that only gets determined when the Frenzied Berserker runs out of enemies during the Frenzy, so it's not recalculated when the Frenzied Berserker runs out of "Nearest Creature."

[Hiro Protagonest]

Oh, wow, this is something that'll get a book thrown at me for sure. :smalltongue:

If the Frenzied Berserker runs out of enemies for the Frenzy, she must attack the nearest creature without regard to the target's health. So, yeah, all the extra attacks and reach you have? You're going to direct them all at one creature, and even if you drop said creature on the first hit (since you don't care about your target's health), you're going to continue beating the dead horse. Squishy.

Edit: :smallconfused: And it also looks like that only gets determined when the Frenzied Berserker runs out of enemies during the Frenzy, so it's not recalculated when the Frenzied Berserker runs out of "Nearest Creature."

Corpses aren't creatures!

Although that bug right over there might count, so you get a round while he stomps on the bug.

Or just have the spellcaster make sure a summon is right next to him at all times.

[Flickerdart]

A corpse is an object, not a creature, and no longer qualifies as a valid target for the "attack nearest creature" clause.

[Arcane_Snowman]

If you're honestly that worried about Frenzied Berserk's Frenzy ability, as part of the daily "buff" routine, chain yourself to a stone or a tree with thick adamantine chains, and the party relieve you of your daily Frenzy uses. You still have Supreme Power Attack, the real reason why you got the Prestige Class in the first place.

[Psyren]

If you're honestly that worried about Frenzied Berserk's Frenzy ability, as part of the daily "buff" routine, chain yourself to a stone or a tree with thick adamantine chains, and the party relieve you of your daily Frenzy uses. You still have Supreme Power Attack, the real reason why you got the Prestige Class in the first place.

So you burned 10 levels of rage progression to tie yourself to a tree every morning?

[Arcane_Snowman]

So you burned 10 levels of rage progression to tie yourself to a tree every morning? No, I burned 10 levels to double my Power Attack output, without it being an explicit multiplier. The Frenzy is just gravy, and if you're too worried about it to want to take the prestige class, that's just a suggestion as to eliminate said "issue".

I'd personally say it's a silly thing to do, but such is life.

[OracleofWuffing]

Corpses aren't creatures!

A corpse is an object, not a creature, and no longer qualifies as a valid target for the "attack nearest creature" clause.
Allow me to clarify: the requirement that I must attack the nearest creature only happens once, after I have ran out of enemies to attack- at that point, the creature I target is still alive (or undead, I'm not finicky). Once I attack it once (and presumedly one shot it), whether it is an object or creature does not matter: At that point, I am required to fight that opponent without regard to (etc etc etc) it's own health.

"That opponent" can be an object or a creature. Doesn't matter, it's still "that opponent." Just needs to be a creature when I start, not when I continue.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Allow me to clarify: the requirement that I must attack the nearest creature only happens once, after I have ran out of enemies to attack- at that point, the creature I target is still alive (or undead, I'm not finicky). Once I attack it once (and presumedly one shot it), whether it is an object or creature does not matter: At that point, I am required to fight that opponent without regard to (etc etc etc) it's own health.

"That opponent" can be an object or a creature. Doesn't matter, it's still "that opponent."

Doesn't matter. Once it's not a creature, it basically blips out of your red vision.

[Psyren]

No, I burned 10 levels to double my Power Attack output, without it being an explicit multiplier.

And yet, I'm willing to bet a Totem Rager, BW or RB could match that damage without sticking the party with a psycho on a leash. And pulling their weight more in other areas besides.

Regardless, I think I've said what I had to say on this topic.

[OracleofWuffing]

Doesn't matter. Once it's not a creature, it basically blips out of your red vision.
The wording used is that I must "fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target's or [my] own)." Whether it is a creature or an object, the rules require me to attack it.


Edit: vvvv But I still have turns of Frenzy left!

[Cieyrin]

Regardless, I think I've said what I had to say on this topic.

Indeed. I think the deceased equine is thoroughly in Chunky Salsa territory by now...

[Psyren]

The wording used is that I must "fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target's or [my] own)." Whether it is a creature or an object, the rules require me to attack it.

Even following this silly reading (how many unmoving corpses do you "perceive as foes?"), hacking a body up so it takes 10k gold worth of diamonds instead of 5 to bring back isn't going to earn you any favors either. (Also, why am I the only one who has a problem with murdering a party member to begin with?)

[Cieyrin]

Even following this silly reading (how many unmoving corpses do you "perceive as foes?"), hacking a body up so it takes 10k gold worth of diamonds instead of 5 to bring back isn't going to earn you any favors either. (Also, why am I the only one who has a problem with murdering a party member to begin with?)

No one liked that Wizard and his Tier 1, anyways. :smalltongue:

[OracleofWuffing]

You perceive it as a foe because it was the closest living thing to you when you ran out of enemies, not because it's an actual threat. :smalltongue:

I thought you said you'd agree to disagree with regards to the point about killing just one PC instead of the whole party? I mean, I was kind of approaching the "FB=TPK" angle with this, not the single PC killer angle.

Er, regardless, while I can't speak for everybody, my personal opinion is that the Difficulty section of the Dungeon Master's Guide makes it clear that 20% of the encounters in a campaign should very well kill one PC. Uh, granted, RAI probably wants that kill to be provided more directly by Team Evil, but if you're worried about dying in a game that recommends someone die every fifth encounter, I'm afraid I might never understand your position well.

Besides, why spend money on ugly rocks to resurrect ugly people when rolling up a new character is free? :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

I think we just found the Monk's true party role.

[Cieyrin]

I think we just found the Monk's true party role.

Is anyone else suddenly recalling Gamers 2? "Hide behind the pile of dead bards!" :smallcool: