[DM] Ways of Negating Invisibility Without Being A Jerk

[Deth Muncher]

Okay, I seem to have a problem here: I'm running a campaign for a group of my friends (or will be, come semester's end), and all but Fighty McTankensten have some form of Invisibility. Ring, spell, racial power, what have you. I did a test session with these guys to check their power levels and...well, it's kind of ridiculous. I don't want them to breeze through everything, but likewise I'd like for them not to call me out for coming up with BS reasons why their invisibility won't work. What are some slightly subtle ways I can let them be invisible, but have it not work quite as well as they like?

Some of my ideas were things like having them move through sandy/watery/noisy somehow terrain, so that unless they're making very good Move Silently or Hide (which they DO, of course, get a +20 on due to Invisible) checks, they can still be observed. Other more obvious solutions are people with Arcane Sight, True Seeing, AMFs, Blindsense and Tremorsense, but used too much those seem a little unfair.

[Geigan]

Try having multiple enemies, and only a few with means of seeing the invisible characters. That way their advantage isn't negated for every enemy ever and the Game gets a new layer of complexity due to who can and can't see who. Unless the guys who can see your players have perfect telepathy, they can't communicate exact positions of your characters in such a way that it's going to negate their advantage completely. Then the game becomes a funny war of information of what can and can't see you. A couple examples:

-a bunch of guard monsters have an ooze that'll eat anything it senses except for them thanks to whatever(smothering themselves in foul smelling liquids, their particular species gives off nasty pheromones to oozes,etc). They'll know that there's an invisible enemy thanks to the ooze so they might start fueling flour about to see if they find something. The players get to deal with dodging an ooze and flour while trying to kill their enemies.

-wizard casts see invisibility. Too bad it only works on him and not his fighter cohorts. Listen to hilarious dialogue as the wizard tries to communicate to all of them in between spells he hurls out, on how they should be fighting. Miscommunication can be hilarious.

[ILM]

At the level they're at, no enemy spellcaster will ever be caught without at the very least a See Invisibility or a Glitterdust prepared or in scroll form. None. They're level 1-2 spells and you're hosed if you go up versus an invisible guy and you can't see him, so there's just no excuse. I wouldn't call it being a jerk, I'd just call it playing smart.

Now this doesn't need to be the end for them. You still have to work around it whenever an encounter doesn't have casters (though higher-CR monsters often have some form of non-visual detection - Darkstalker anyone?); the party can counterspell or dispel either of the spells I mentioned; they can spread out in order not to all be caught in the AoE of Glitterdust; they can use tactics to ambush the guy and one-shot (or one-surprise-round) the enemy before he gets a chance to fire up a spell (and even if he does, he's burning a round just to see them and that's worth something).

IMO, past level, what, 5, Invisibility isn't a game-changer anymore. It's just something you come to expect and prepare for. And then you prepare for the enemy's preparations, etc. I don't know your group but I'd just suggest rolling with it, doing what you can against the invisibility when it makes sense, and letting them learn how to cope.

edit: also, um, what Geigan said. :smallsmile:

[Akto]

I find in a fight with a couple of guard monsters/mooks, giving some of them Hear the unseen (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1359-hear-the-unseen.html) helps a lot, as it gives them a non-magi way of having a chance to find the PC's, and they still have have a miss chance, cause the invisibility isn't dispelled, so the players still have the advantage, but also not completely out of harms way

[werik]

I think that the most important thing to keep in mind here is that your players chose invisibility as a group resource because they want it to work. Of course you're going to want/need to thwart this advantage sometimes, but your players will be able to sense that they're being cheated if everyone has true seeing all the time. I agree that spellcasters should have see invisibility prepared, but they don't necessarily have it on them 24/7. This creates a compromise, as mentioned above between validating their power and neutering their power. Also, consider clever and varied traps as a good way of foiling invisibility. A pit in the floor near your flunkies is both surprising (since most players don't expect to find traps in the same rooms as their enemies) and an effective way of indicating that there is at least one invisible character when he/she falls in to it.

[Dimers]

Other more obvious solutions are people with Arcane Sight, True Seeing, AMFs, Blindsense and Tremorsense, but used too much those seem a little unfair.

Lots of animals have Scent. It's less specific -- the PC and animal have to be adjacent for it to pinpoint location. But's it's an established form of defense in the real world, and the tactic has enough gameworld weaknesses that it seems fair to me. Like, max 60' detection even upwind, and relying on the actions of creatures who'd need to be highly trained to even try ATTACKING something invisible. Lycanthropes have Scent without that particular downside ... But anyway, if the players are smart and cautious, they'll say "oh crap" as soon as they see a guard dog.

Ambushes can work well, too. If enemies in a large group keep getting picked off by invisible PCs, encounter after encounter, eventually someone might try tracking down the party while they sleep, or setting up a trap somewhere they wouldn't normally try to be invisible.

[Rhaegar14]

One interesting approach, if used sparingly, would be to fight fire with fire. Make them fight Swift Hunter Pixies, for example.

[Darrin]

I'd start with creatures that have Scent or blindsense/blindsight. Scent and blindsense allow a creature to pinpoint an invisible opponent, but your invisible PCs still get a miss chance, so their strategy isn't being completely negated.

Blindsight is more common with bats, and these are easy to add as animal companions or mounts. If you limit the blindsense to one creature per encounter, this gives the PCs a tactical challenge: can they get rid of the bat before it gives away their position? Are they clever enough to neutralize it with a sonic/deafness effect or silence spell?

If the PCs were going out of their way to abuse invisibility, then they'd start running into more creatures with flour pouches (dirt cheap, Dungeonscape), glitterdust, and area effects. The PCs have reputations, and if they are wildly successful, then word gets around about their tactics. Intelligent creatures do not live in a vacuum, they do listen to rumors, and if they hear that monsters are getting wiped out left and right by a faceless horde of invisible attackers, they will take steps to defend themselves.

[Tenno Seremel]

You can also use Psion / Psychic Warrior with Detect Hostile Intent. It's 30 ft. emanation so it'll not necessary defeat everyone. Since you learn direction but not exact location with it you are going to use area effects like Energy Bolt or something else. You'll want Touchsight if you need harder counter.

[panaikhan]

How is invisibility adjudicated these days?
If it's mind-effecting: hello Undead. or Construct.
Traps are always good (they don't care if you're invisible).
Area effects. Something I've run foul of while playing Skyrim, is standing pools of liquid that ignite in the presense of any kind of naked flame - usally with a clay lantern hanging close by. The standard burn time of oil is only a few rounds, so it's kind-of safe to use in a stone structure.

[CTrees]

Fight (metaphoric) fire with (literal) fire. "Hey, there are obviously enemies somewhere around there! FIREBALL." Area effect blasts may not be the best option against invisibility, but it seems like something an NPC would come up with off the cuff. Black Tentacles comes to mind as a nifty area effect which doesn't require sight (actually, it would seem reasonable to grant a spot check to see where the tentacles are specifically attacking, to pinpoint the square of an invisible enemy).

Also, NPCs can summon things with enhanced senses to help them.

Traps are always good. Further, know that you've been raided by invisible PCs? Set up traps which spray ink or tar (better yet - flaming tar), in order to help your guards see the aggressors.

As has been stated, guard dogs and oozes are both fantastic options. If I were an evil overlord, I could see posting dogs at strategic locations with permanent wind effects pointing towards them (for that downwind bonus to scent). Hey, it's cheap and effective!

[some guy]

Flour is great.
And cheap.
Make 'm fight through a wine cellar (in which the winecasks break and the pc's get splashed on by wine), after that make the fight continue in a kitchen where they get covered in flour!

Ofcourse, not every fight can go this way (The Terrible Dungeon of Wine and Bread?). But, you could use it at least for 1 fight.

Other powders might also work.

[Venger]

Okay, I seem to have a problem here: I'm running a campaign for a group of my friends (or will be, come semester's end), and all but Fighty McTankensten have some form of Invisibility. Ring, spell, racial power, what have you. I did a test session with these guys to check their power levels and...well, it's kind of ridiculous. I don't want them to breeze through everything, but likewise I'd like for them not to call me out for coming up with BS reasons why their invisibility won't work. What are some slightly subtle ways I can let them be invisible, but have it not work quite as well as they like?

Some of my ideas were things like having them move through sandy/watery/noisy somehow terrain, so that unless they're making very good Move Silently or Hide (which they DO, of course, get a +20 on due to Invisible) checks, they can still be observed. Other more obvious solutions are people with Arcane Sight, True Seeing, AMFs, Blindsense and Tremorsense, but used too much those seem a little unfair.

well, invisibility, like flight is something that you are understood to have in your repertoire after a certain level (unless you're a fighter)

your players have presumably invested their time/resources in this (whether it's in the form of gold for rings of invisibility, using the invisible fist variant, taking the dark creature template, etc.) so it's sort of bad to nullify it all the time. you don't send them against only golems because some of them can cast magic or only ghosts because you have a fighter, so the same sort of rationale applies

+20 is how much higher the enemy has to roll than their move silently check, which might be hard for the sneak types, but will ruin the wizard's day. are your enemies unable to hit this DC? does the wizard wear skill boosting items?

what's your party breakdown like? do you have mostly casters, mostly ranger types with psychoactive chameleon skins? the ways of dealing with it will be different.

do any of your players have darkstalker? if so, then your job just got harder. if not, then scent, blindsight/sense, tremorsense are all your friends.

it's hard to beat just putting sand on the floor unless they all have a reliable at-will means of levitation/flight (which is somewhat harder to swing)

even if the enemy can't see them, invisibility doesn't make combats a cakewalk. you still reappear after you attack which is usually enough time for enemies to attack you during their round, so there's always that

[1stEd.Thief]

Can your players see invisibility? How are they coordinating?

I ask because a PC of mine went into a situation with an (improved) invisible party and they got hosed because nobody knew where anyone was.

[Tokuhara]

My 2c:

Anything with Scent can "smell" Invisible things. Maybe the BBEG experimented on these guys by mixing animal and villain race to give them Scent. Perhaps they are wolf-men in a very literal sense?

[killem2]

Spit attacks that spay blood or liquid. Perhaps acid breaths (minor but good enough to stick to skin and reveal) Sonar, since I would assume just because he's not visible doesn't mean he's not there right? Unless, invisibility means he's in another plane.

[Cieyrin]

Doors, curtains, window shutters, pools of water that they have to cross through, all these make invisibility not the end-all, be-all to encounters. It makes the players have to think about situations and how to create distractions to throw guards off, otherwise you'll have the following situation:

Ernie: "Hey Bert, why's the door opening by itself? I don't feel any wind."
Bert: "I don't know, something's not right. Let's check it out."

Nothing ruins a infiltration more than actually alert and paranoid guards, especially if something bumbles into their guard post. Having guard dogs that growl when they smell unfamiliar smells helps too, not just against invisibles but undesirables in general.

Also, as the OP said, one of the characters isn't invisible. He doesn't sound quiet, either, so the party is either leaving him behind a lot or are going to have to make up for him, one way or another.

[Slipperychicken]

Bees could be trained for this purpose: They sniff out the invisible party members and hover around them (swarm immunities protecting them), while everyone aims their glitterdusts/dispels/bags of flour. Before flight, having enemies use dogs as tracers is a really cool option too. Maybe there's an equivalent to a paint-cannon, to hit the invisible guys after they've been pinpointed. Maybe heat-vision goggles exist (because magic). Maybe the gods bestowed some countermeasure on their followers when they were threatened by invisible creatures.


Feel free to be mean about this, because in a setting with so many ways to turn invisible, either anti-invisibility should have been a staple of warfare for millennia, or invisible factions conquered the world.

[Chronos]

The key question is whether the enemies know they're there in the first place. Yes, Glitterdust is excellent at negating invisibility, but does the wizard really just randomly cast Glitterdust on an apparently-empty room every so often? Once you know they're there, there are plenty of ways to nullify invisibility, but you have to know that first.

[Tokuhara]

The key question is whether the enemies know they're there in the first place. Yes, Glitterdust is excellent at negating invisibility, but does the wizard really just randomly cast Glitterdust on an apparently-empty room every so often? Once you know they're there, there are plenty of ways to nullify invisibility, but you have to know that first.

I had this happen in a campaign. 4 players, all casters, all with invisibility and no Fly/Levitate (Party saw that as "no fun." Also, magic killed somebody somewhere else around the world). My dungeons were known to have a fine layer of dust/sand/water/whatever on the floor. Not enough that the party cared about, but enough that enemies saw footprints and had a rough idea where they were. That is, until the Wizard-like generic caster thought, "Hey! I'll cast a wind spell and blow the layer of grime away so we can sneak!"

Gods, I hate smart players...

[Dimers]

Bees could be trained for this purpose: They sniff out the invisible party members and hover around them (swarm immunities protecting them), while everyone aims their glitterdusts/dispels/bags of flour.

Oh, very nice! If we can train wasps to sniff for bombs without using magic to do it, I imagine it'd be no problem to do with magic!

[imneuromancer]

Underwater adventures!! Invisibility is essentially useless underwater, and a lot of your wizards' most powerful spells (glitterdust, the cloud spells, etc.) are useless! woohoo!

[Gavinfoxx]

Things which can defeat invisibility:

-Visible Clutter in the areas where characters would walk or fly
-Swarms
-Area of effect spells (fireball and such)
-Area of effect alchemical substances
-Fairy Fire
-Torch Bug Paste
-Scent
-Glitterdust
-Dawnburst
-Invisibility Purge
-See Invisible
-Flour bombs or dust bombs or other such things
-Arcane Sight
-Detect Magic
-Detect Invisibility
-True Seeing
-Blindsight
-Blindsense
-Mindsight
-Lifesense
-Touchsight
-A very high listen score can pinpoint invisible creatures
-Spot can actually be used to see invisible
-There is a skill trick which can help spot see invisible
-Large numbers of enemies with nets
-Any sort of light fog or water or snow or whatever which can show movement in the substance could defeat invisibility.
-Cast light on some glue or tar or something in a method that is throwable as a splash weapon, and throw it: the light will stay in the glue, and it will stick to whatever it hits, even something invisible (this is a jury rigged version of Torch Bug Paste).

A DM can also make being invisible not an automatic win condition for the group, ie, the group has to protect something which is not invisible, or the group is in cramped quarters and invisibility isnt a great asset, things like that.

[Akisa]

Underwater adventures!! Invisibility is essentially useless underwater, and a lot of your wizards' most powerful spells (glitterdust, the cloud spells, etc.) are useless! woohoo!

Why is invisibility useless underwater again?

[starwoof]

One interesting approach, if used sparingly, would be to fight fire with fire. Make them fight Swift Hunter Pixies, for example.
That would be an interesting battle to not watch.:smallwink:

[Keld Denar]

You know, its only a DC 20 spot check to notice that "something is wrong" and that there are invisible foes present. 1 HD guards could almost make that 25% of the time. 4 guards = aprox 100% of the time, someone's hair stands on end and more guards are alerted. I'd assume that most guards in a D&D setting would at least know that Invisibility exists. That gives the PCs a chance do do something about it, but also a chance that the place goes on high alert, the Dispelling Screen traps are armed, and off duty clerics and mages are mustered to do patrols with See Invisibility or Invisibility Purge running. Or just attack dogs or other keen senses domesticated creatures.

[deuxhero]

Guard Dogs.

[Barstro]

Why is invisibility useless underwater again?

Same sort of reason that rain would work.

You would be able to see the "aura" where the invisible form meets the water; much like the line that is visible in a glass of water and oil.

Pseudo science from what I remember 25 years ago; This aura exists in air as well, but air has such a low refraction coefficient that we don't perceive it. Now, if the caster found a way to improve the invisibility so that their body had the same amount of refraction, then they could still be invisible under water.

[Akisa]

Same sort of reason that rain would work.

You would be able to see the "aura" where the invisible form meets the water; much like the line that is visible in a glass of water and oil.

Pseudo science from what I remember 25 years ago; This aura exists in air as well, but air has such a low refraction coefficient that we don't perceive it. Now, if the caster found a way to improve the invisibility so that their body had the same amount of refraction, then they could still be invisible under water.

Even if that's the case in 3.5 the dmg state you can turn a fireball into steam underwater by making a spellcraft check, shouldn't you be able to do the same with invisibility?

[Karoht]

I thought darkvision could see through invisibility because darkvision works on heat signatures. I'm probably misremembering.

Also, not in all cases do you need to 'flush them out' to delay them sufficiently. Spells like Sleetstorm are great for cutting off an area, blocking line of sight, etc. Wall of Fire can block them as well, only with the real threat of damage. You don't necessarily need to be able to see them to remove their combat effectiveness, but being able to block them from reaching a target works remarkably well.

Also, traps. Traps don't care if you're invisible or not, most of the time. And they are appropriate challenges given that your team should have the skills to deal with them. Even a trip wire with some tin cans or bells can still be useful in this regard.

Barring that, tremor sense + blind fight, scent is useful as well.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Can your players see invisibility? How are they coordinating?

I ask because a PC of mine went into a situation with an (improved) invisible party and they got hosed because nobody knew where anyone was.

I am posting to bring this again under attention. Countering invisibility is a good option, and there are many ways to do so, but doing it often does not sit well with both players and DM.

However, pointing out the drawbacks of their tactics helps to make them reconsider using it all the time. Pay attention to it. It mellowed my players' invisibility-hunger in the past.

'Your team mates might be in the fireball radius...'
'Sure, you can heal him...but where is he?'
'I know you are wounded, but the cleric does not see that. Are you going to shout out for healing?'
'Yeah...precise shot...do you think it applies to a melee you cannot see?'
etc..

Then toss in an opponent that uses invisibilty himself: 'Yeah, you think you pinpointed it. To your right. That must be him. Or Pete, your best friend...Or?'

Mix this in with the occasional see invisibility, glitterdust, scent and whatnot and all of a sudden it becomes less popular....maybe even a waste of a standard action. And we're back where we want to be: 'Invisibility...could do that'....instead of 'Roll initiative, *poof*, *poof*, *poof*'.

[Safety Sword]

Also, traps. Traps don't care if you're invisible or not, most of the time. And they are appropriate challenges given that your team should have the skills to deal with them. Even a trip wire with some tin cans or bells can still be useful in this regard.


Auto-resetting Invisibility Purge Trap in a room where the BBEG want to fight.

Usually just making the PCs choose between action and reinstating invisibility will make most of them less invisible :smallwink:

[Karoht]

Bardic Music -> Fascinate -> Suggestion

Yes, you're invisible. You can still hear, in fact you are relying on hearing quite a bit. A Bard becomes extremely useful. Bard can start forcing Will saves, I think they can cast Glitterdust or Faerie Fire as well.

Also, the Bard can do what a Bard does best. Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate. Granted, it's a slight bit easier for the invisibles to ignore, but there it is. If they can hear or see the Bard, the bard can still attempt the check, albeit probably at some kind of sharp negative, but I could be wrong about that.

Oh, Bards in Pathfinder get a spell whereby they make an intimidate check. If they succeed, they light people on fire. Fire tends to flush out invisible people pretty quickly. And the spell is still pursuant to the intimidate rules, which require that the invisibles be able to hear or see the target. Sadly, I completely forget what the spell is called or what book it's in. Still, very cool spell that can light people on fire, on top of normal intimidate effects.


No, I'm not suggesting that Bards counter all invisibility with sheer awesomeness, but they are surprisingly good at it come to think of it.


PS-I could be wrong about any and all of the above. Use caution.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

No, I'm not suggesting that Bards counter all invisibility with sheer awesomeness, but they are surprisingly good at it come to think of it.


Bards counter everything with sheer awesomeness :smallwink:.

[jiriku]

A lot of specific tactics have been mentioned here, so I'll just talk about how to pull it all together.

People know that invisibility exists. Even if an NPC doesn't have ranks in Knowledge (arcana) or Spellcraft, rumors get swapped at the local pub, bards tell stories, and spellcasters educate their allies. Given this, everyone who has any reason to suspect that they might one day face an invisible opponent will take reasonable precautions, especially when those precautions don't require them to go out of their way. Simply choose options that are natural and logical for the opponents in question.
An animal with scent can lair in a burrow where air flows inward from the main entrance, allowing it to smell any creature that approaches.
Kobolds might take the standard falling rock trap activated by a pressure plate, and add a pound or two of glittery mica into the rock reservoir. Pit traps will have several inches of tar on the bottom.
An encampment of hobgoblins will employ wolves as guards, keep doors and windows closed and locked, and post guards at important portals or intersections. These guards will have horns or other devices to sound a warning if they suspect an invisible creature is breaking in.
A drow encampment will lace their lair with webs and utilize spiders with tremorsense as an early warning system, and drop faerie fire wherever they suspect an invisible creature to be. Drow spellcasters will prepare and use see invisibility or blindsense.

[CTrees]

I am posting to bring this again under attention. Countering invisibility is a good option, and there are many ways to do so, but doing it often does not sit well with both players and DM.

However, pointing out the drawbacks of their tactics helps to make them reconsider using it all the time. Pay attention to it. It mellowed my players' invisibility-hunger in the past.

'Your team mates might be in the fireball radius...'
'Sure, you can heal him...but where is he?'
'I know you are wounded, but the cleric does not see that. Are you going to shout out for healing?'
'Yeah...precise shot...do you think it applies to a melee you cannot see?'
etc..

Then toss in an opponent that uses invisibilty himself: 'Yeah, you think you pinpointed it. To your right. That must be him. Or Pete, your best friend...Or?'

Mix this in with the occasional see invisibility, glitterdust, scent and whatnot and all of a sudden it becomes less popular....maybe even a waste of a standard action. And we're back where we want to be: 'Invisibility...could do that'....instead of 'Roll initiative, *poof*, *poof*, *poof*'.

Nonononono - what you need to mix these things with is Silence. Unless the party is coordinating via See Invisibility (do they all have it active? all the time?), it's likely going to be hilariously awkward.

[Sudain]

Don't forget that invisability is a magic spell. Which will give off a magic aura. Detect Magic, Arcane Sight(Perminacied - yes please) will still give of their locations if not direct shape.

Traps/doors that require the person to be visible.

Alarm - it doesn't care if someone's invisible or not.

Explosive Runes - it doesn't care if the reader is invisible or not.

Give some thought to the abjuration lines of spells. And the symbol of xxx lines of spells.

[Deth Muncher]

Wow! You guys had a lot of ideas.

By the way, the breakdown of the party is like one guy is some sort of horrible undead rogue melee type (horrible in that he is horrific, not that he's bad at playing a rogue), one's a ranger, one's a druid, Fighty McTankenstein is a fighter, and there's also a wizard. With a flying carpet. I don't know if the party layout will stay exactly like this though.


I think one definite way that I'd thought of/you guys reinforced is that of making the environment itself hazardous to invisibility - if something in the environment can give you away, it makes pinpointing you a lot easier. Beasts with scent, also a big fan - and it's certainly plausible that everyone would have some guard dogs. You are also good to point out that traps are much like the honey badger. (If you don't understand, type honey badger into YouTube. Language NSFW.)

I'd like to think that certain higher level folks in the world might just either have items of Invisibility Purge, or goggles of See Invisibility/Arcane Sight on their guards, let alone their own spellcasting capabilities.

[Madcrafter]

Your players should be making every effort to avoid combat while invisible (at least, that's what I'd do). Unless they are constantly keeping up improved invisibility, the effect ends as soon as they take a hostile action. That potentially poses problems if they ever do get detected. Especially if they have different priorities: Having the party stumble into some sort of detection, and some of the party members appear and engage, while the rest suddenly aren't there (though that depends on their character's choices).

Though the others here have good ideas for detecting them, if they are being incautious with their movements. Enforcing the fact they would completely lack any team coordination at all while invisible is my favorite, might make them think twice about using it so often.

[Username_too_lo]

Paranoid Warlocks. Martial leadership doesn't match their skill sets (selfish, no buffing) but that See Invisibility at Will makes them pepper spray for invisible characters.

Imagine a purely martial band with a Warlock in tow tracing down the whereabouts of a magical artefact whilst being paranoid that his rival is right behind him - a rival with invisibility (they both only need to be 10th level to get these). The thugs won't be able to see the players, but they can hear the warlock's hysterical shrieks and throw alchemist's fire in their general direction.

[Karoht]

See, I always thought Detect Magic would reveal them and yet many a DM has argued with me that it won't. Interesting. Even if it just gives you the 5x5 square that the person is in, it's still enough to get a chance at hitting them, albeit with what, a 50% miss chance?

[Cieyrin]

Even if that's the case in 3.5 the dmg state you can turn a fireball into steam underwater by making a spellcraft check, shouldn't you be able to do the same with invisibility?

It's more like water is still displaced when you enter it, invisible or otherwise. So it's more like, if you want to be undetectable underwater, it's time to go ethereal. :smallwink:


I thought darkvision could see through invisibility because darkvision works on heat signatures. I'm probably misremembering.

You're mixing editions up, now. Darkvision just lets you see in black and white in darkness up to the ability's range. Infravision, from pre-3.x, lets you see heat signatures. Both don't help you see invisible creatures, since invisibility hides those.


See, I always thought Detect Magic would reveal them and yet many a DM has argued with me that it won't. Interesting. Even if it just gives you the 5x5 square that the person is in, it's still enough to get a chance at hitting them, albeit with what, a 50% miss chance?

It'll give you the location so you know where to hit, after those 3 rounds of staring at it, which may make it difficult if its a moving invisible object. You'll still have to contend with that 50% miss chance unless you do something to make it go away, like throw a Faerie Fire or Invisibility Purge. Btb, Glitterdust doesn't actually negate invisibility, either, it just gives a -40 to Hide, which is exactly the opposite of the bonus you'd have to Hide if you were notmoving and invisible. So, like Detect Magic, it'll give you a location, since they're all glittery, but they're still invisible and still have that 50% miss chance, its just that you don't have to worry about trying to pinpoint them, b/c they're right there.

[The Reverend]

Simplest way to detect invisible creatures


Those beaded door curtains that were popular during the seventies. They are really noisy and if you just put 4 or 5 of them in a row the players a bound to blow their move silently role. If you are feeling nasty the first couple of curtains are covered in oil and the rest have feathers covered in flour.

[herrhauptmann]

Pierce Magical Concealment (requires mageslayer and blindfight).
Ignore miss chances that result from spells. That includes obscuring mist, darkness, and invisibility.
Still need to attack the right square, but that's possible to get with all the things mentioned here.

Seems cheap? Well what's the bad guy and his plans?

In my campaign, the PCs are going after a guy because they think he's an horrible necromancer (he is) trying to kill everything (well almost everything). But the fluff/reasons for him and his minions? Revenge against the Netheril Empire, Thay, Zhentil Keep, Cult of the Dragon and to hurt Khelben Blackstaff (nonagression pact with the Zhents).
Thus, a lot of his servants actually have some of the mageslayer feats. Hopefully, when the PCs encounter one of the apprentices of the BBEG, they'll talk for a moment before starting the fight.

[Gavinfoxx]

Things like those beaded curtains and things like intentionally squeaky floorboards and other such things WERE used specifically as security devices in the past...

[The Reverend]

Pile of pottery and dishes precariously placed.

A permanently greased tunnel, all sides. The only way to successfully walk down it is to hold on to ropes that run lengthwise along the wall. The ropes have bells and other noisemaking devices attached.

Crunchy forest floors are actually REALLY HARD to move thru silently. You end up always taking a twenty.

candle of true darkness ina highly trapped area. Only way thru is to hold onto the bell equipped rope.

Floors covered with snakes, poisonous snakes.

Weight sensors. Tell the guard at the end of the trap ladden tunnel your weight, scale provided, he sets the tunnel and If too much weight moves thru too quickly the traps activate

[Safety Sword]

Things like those beaded curtains and things like intentionally squeaky floorboards and other such things WERE used specifically as security devices in the past...

If you're going to do stuff like this you still need a game mechanical way for the PCs to detect/disable/bypass. Basically, it's a a trap scenario.

[Karoht]

On something as low-tech as a beaded curtain, I would still have them roll to spot the 'trap' and still allow a disable device, as there could still be a means to disable them. Doing so while maintaining stealth would increase the DC though.

Same with a creeky floorboard. The disable device skill (at this point a profession-carpentry or whatever the related knowledge is might be a more applicable roll therefore with either a bonus to the roll or a lower DC), would simply involve placing something like a wedge to stop the floorboard from moving and therefore less likely to make noise.

Math check? Let's consider the curtain to be a trap with an equivilant CR to a series of tripwires. 3-5 trip wires. No damage, alert only. What would be the DC to notice it, and what would be the DC to Disable it? Secondary check, Dex/Reflex to move through it silently. All of the above assumes it can't be bipassed in some other way (IE-Crawl under it because it doesn't reach the floor).

I think as long as you treat it as you would any other trap it won't seem too unfair, but that is my opinion. It even puts those often neglected trap skills to work.

[Safety Sword]

On something as low-tech as a beaded curtain, I would still have them roll to spot the 'trap' and still allow a disable device, as there could still be a means to disable them. Doing so while maintaining stealth would increase the DC though.

Same with a creeky floorboard. The disable device skill (at this point a profession-carpentry or whatever the related knowledge is might be a more applicable roll therefore with either a bonus to the roll or a lower DC), would simply involve placing something like a wedge to stop the floorboard from moving and therefore less likely to make noise.

Math check? Let's consider the curtain to be a trap with an equivilant CR to a series of tripwires. 3-5 trip wires. No damage, alert only. What would be the DC to notice it, and what would be the DC to Disable it? Secondary check, Dex/Reflex to move through it silently. All of the above assumes it can't be bipassed in some other way (IE-Crawl under it because it doesn't reach the floor).

I think as long as you treat it as you would any other trap it won't seem too unfair, but that is my opinion. It even puts those often neglected trap skills to work.

:smallwink:

*High 5s Karoht* :smallsmile:

[Person_Man]

One of the most important ways to negate Invisibility without being a jerk is to just have enemies guess what square the PC's are located in. Even if they can't see the PC's, they know that someone just hit them with something that felt like a melee weapon, or they see an arrow or spell (which becomes visible once it leaves the PC's person) emanating from a certain square. The enemies might guess wrong, and if they guess right they have a 50% miss chance, but they're not just going to stand their helplessly. If the PCs have any easy time killing 5 enemies while Invisible, then just have them fight 10, or 15, or whatever. Mix up the variety of who they fight, mix up the settings, and mix up the types of attacks that the enemies use (breath weapons, spells, psionics, soulmelds, vestiges, etc) beyond simple melee attacks.

[Gavinfoxx]

Lots of traps aren't hidden at all, and shouldn't have a DC to notice them... they are meant to be seen, and meant to be deterrents...

[Safety Sword]

Lots of traps aren't hidden at all, and shouldn't have a DC to notice them... they are meant to be seen, and meant to be deterrents...

You mean they have very low DCs so are normally automatically detected, right? :smalltongue:

Even if it's plainly a trap, PCs with appropriate skills should be allowed attempts to disable and subsequently bypass the trap.

Unless you're the kind of DM that puts a hidden trap on your plain trap (you know, a confusingly bad DM :smallfrown:)

DM: You notice a trap ahead in the corridor.
Player: I attempt to disable it *rolls*
DM: You disable the trap.
Player: I motion the rest of the party forward and point out the trap and how to get around it.
DM: You get hit by a trap.
Player: What? I disabled the trap!
DM: I heard you like traps on your traps so I trapped my traps.
Player: Ranged touch attack with flying Players Handbook on DM.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, you don't roll to detect things that are in plain sight, I mean.

[Talya]

Invisibility works fine underwater. It makes you invisible.

The problem is, the water around you, while transparent, is not invisible. Therefore, you aim for the gap in the water.

[Akisa]

Invisibility works fine underwater. It makes you invisible.

The problem is, the water around you, while transparent, is not invisible. Therefore, you aim for the gap in the water.
Grrr stupid DMG...

Though what I don't understand why can't you modify the spell like you could with fire spell by taking 20+spell level. Sure if you exit the water, you'll be in a weird bubble.

[herrhauptmann]

You mean they have very low DCs so are normally automatically detected, right? :smalltongue:

Even if it's plainly a trap, PCs with appropriate skills should be allowed attempts to disable and subsequently bypass the trap.

Unless you're the kind of DM that puts a hidden trap on your plain trap (you know, a confusingly bad DM :smallfrown:)

DM: You notice a trap ahead in the corridor.
Player: I attempt to disable it *rolls*
DM: You disable the trap.
Player: I motion the rest of the party forward and point out the trap and how to get around it.
DM: You get hit by a trap.
Player: What? I disabled the trap!
DM: I heard you like traps on your traps so I trapped my traps.
Player: Ranged touch attack with flying Players Handbook on DM.
I think he meant like pits or punji sticks. (http://www.gunslot.com/files/gunslot/images/69863.jpg) The PC's can see the trap, so they're not going to go there during the fight. The purpose is to funnel the enemy somewhere.

[Safety Sword]

I think he meant like pits or punji sticks. (http://www.gunslot.com/files/gunslot/images/69863.jpg) The PC's can see the trap, so they're not going to go there during the fight. The purpose is to funnel the enemy somewhere.

It's not really a trap then, it's more part of the environment. I'm specifically saying "trap" as a game term. Not as a term for a dangerous situation that the PCs are unaware of.

The difference is:
D&D: It's a trap!
&
Star Wars: It's a trap!

[Karoht]

It's not really a trap then, it's more part of the environment. I'm specifically saying "trap" as a game term. Not as a term for a dangerous situation that the PCs are unaware of.Thats a good way to consider it, part of the environment that is. It's less of a trap, more of a hazaard or terrain piece.

It is just easier to use the term trap at that point. Partly because traps can cover a broad spectrum, and there are great rules for creating a trap.

IE-There is an obvious trap ahead, but it will break Invisibility potentially, especially if the person screws up. This route takes you right to the target, There is an alternate route, but it's a narrow corridor with guards who have dogs (scent detection, hard to slip past due to space confines, etc).
(Potentially both have the same CR or very close to the same)



The difference is:
D&D: It's a trap! *roll reflex*
&
Star Wars: It's a trap! *does a barrel roll*
Fixed that for you.


Going back to the beaded curtain for a moment, if the curtain had a sprinkling of talc powder on it, this would actually be something that the invisible person would probably have to spot. Yes, they can spot the curtain, the fine dusting of talc or honey dust isn't so easy to spot. The disable device check might be easy, the detection that it even is a trap might not be. Conversely, it might be rather challenging to disable that particular trap, and rather easy to spot.

Then there is the DM detail. The DM tells you that there is a floor length beaded curtain. Any time the DM describes a door with more detail than 'there is a door' it is sort of a tip off that something is up. Players are going to be cautious around it. Hence I would imagine that a savvy player would go up and investigate it first, realize it's primary purpose (noise if disturbed), and possibly notice it's secondary purpose (dusting of talc power/honey dust, meaning that the owner of the place is probably anticipating stealth/invisible attackers), and then take steps to either avoid that doorway or neutralize it.

Oh, and honey dust or talc powder are very cheap to acquire, a small pouch of the stuff on all the guards will work just fine if they suspect stealth/invisible opponents. A handful of the stuff thrown into a 5 ft square should do the trick to highlight the opponent for others to see. No magic required.

[jiriku]

Things like those beaded curtains and things like intentionally squeaky floorboards and other such things WERE used specifically as security devices in the past...

Nightingale floors (http://www.zen-garden.org/html/page_nightingalefloor.htm)! Excellent idea, and very flavorful.

[Infernalbargain]

Invisibility can be negated by a single level 3 wizard. Wizard casts see invisibility on self. Wizard now casts silent image to create the image of a person where he sees the invisible people to be, then tells the mooks to attack those images. It takes a round to prep up, and can be disrupted by attacking a single target but exposes the entire team. Seems fair enough to me.

[Cieyrin]

Invisibility can be negated by a single level 3 wizard. Wizard casts see invisibility on self. Wizard now casts silent image to create the image of a person where he sees the invisible people to be, then tells the mooks to attack those images. It takes a round to prep up, and can be disrupted by attacking a single target but exposes the entire team. Seems fair enough to me.

But do you expect that up all the time, though? See Invisibility isn't a buff you can just keep up all the time. If you expect enemies to be invisible and have a good idea of where they are, then yes, this works just fine, but its not the be all, end all.

[Infernalbargain]

But do you expect that up all the time, though? See Invisibility isn't a buff you can just keep up all the time. If you expect enemies to be invisible and have a good idea of where they are, then yes, this works just fine, but its not the be all, end all.

If you're like constructing a fort, I could see an army willing to pay for a permanent see invis on a someone for this purpose.

[Karoht]

If you're like constructing a fort, I could see an army willing to pay for a permanent see invis on a someone for this purpose.It's the sort of thing one would contract out. Looking after that sort of thing in-house is just more work than it's worth to manage.

[ericgrau]

Invisibility rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility)
Make a DC 20 listen check then attack with a 50% miss chance, simple. Also works for handling blindness, darkness, or fog. Heck if you read carefully throughout the rules you'll notice listen is THE mundane way to handle this. For something beyond that blind fight ought to be a popular melee feat, and I think it is popular for those who actually knows how this all works.

Once you get to high levels see invisibility and so on should be common knowledge and while foes shouldn't overly prepare specifically for invisibility (there are other things to prepare against), many of them should have something.

[Mastrolozozzo]

Give them something to protect.
Invisibility will prove usefull, but they will be forced to fight anyway.

[Darrin]

Invisibility can be negated by a single level 3 wizard. Wizard casts see invisibility on self. Wizard now casts silent image to create the image of a person where he sees the invisible people to be, then tells the mooks to attack those images.


Two rounds? Easier to just cast glitterdust or toss around some flour/torchbug paste. There are other problems with using silent image, though. It's a figment, not a glamer, so technically you can't cast a figment on top of another object. The figment is also mindless, so you can't tell it to automatically copy everything the underlying creature is doing. This may allow you to pinpoint the creatures for a round, but since the underlying creature is still moving around the square independently of the image, I'd still give him a 50% miss chance. On the creature's next action, they can just move away from the figment, and the figment can't "catch up" until the wizard's turn comes around again.

[ericgrau]

See invisibility has a 10 minute/level duration, which is why I considered it more common at high levels. You can extend it and cast it multiple times, or an hour before a fight if you know trouble is coming. I also wouldn't spend my best spells on defense when I might never use them. The more likely result is a useless 3rd level wizard who is mediocre against anything else. At low levels I put see invisibility on scrolls, but level 3 is too low for that.

On the cleric side is invisibility purge. It doesn't last so long but it reveals the foe to your allies with a single standard action within a rapidly scaling radius. This also gets good and should likewise be a common DM tactic at higher levels thanks to the huge radius.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

-Flour bombs or dust bombs or other such things

Added benefit: dispersed flour is explosive. If the flour bomb reveals invisible enemies, all you need is a spark to blow them up. Should be good for a d6 of damage or two of fire damage and it'll really throw off their game.


Unless you're the kind of DM that puts a hidden trap on your plain trap (you know, a confusingly bad DM :smallfrown:)

I'd do that in a heartbeat. But I'm not the kind of DM that says "you notice a trap". I tell them they notice a trigger, and only describe the trap if they try to examine it closer. Figure that justifies a second Search roll to find the trap-in-a-trap.

[Runestar]

Can your players see invisibility? How are they coordinating?

I ask because a PC of mine went into a situation with an (improved) invisible party and they got hosed because nobody knew where anyone was.
How did they even fight? Resolve it ala battleships? :smalltongue:

[Arbane]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but consider the downside of invisibility. Okay, the PCs have invisibly sneaked past about a hundred guards to sneak into Baron Von Uberbad's throne room... but once the fight with him starts, ALL those guards are going to come a-running.

[Deth Muncher]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but consider the downside of invisibility. Okay, the PCs have invisibly sneaked past about a hundred guards to sneak into Baron Von Uberbad's throne room... but once the fight with him starts, ALL those guards are going to come a-running.

It hadn't, as such, but it makes sense regardless. Though if you (the invisible PCs) do it right, there wouldn't be a real fight so much as a one hit KO. Hopefully.

[Karoht]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but consider the downside of invisibility. Okay, the PCs have invisibly sneaked past about a hundred guards to sneak into Baron Von Uberbad's throne room... but once the fight with him starts, ALL those guards are going to come a-running.Yeah, but that can be fun too.
It creates a bit of a timer. It's going to take all the guards on the bottom level at least a few rounds to get to you. A 4-6 round timer is usually a good amount of time before the big bad gets his reinforcements and the odds shift back to his favor.

Of course, if your invisible party manages to set up something to slow them down or detain them to buy them more time, all the better. You'd be amazed at how much damage you can do with a few trip wires and a scroll of Grease on a staircase, maybe some caltrops thrown in for good measure. That can extend the timer somewhat, from a 4-6 round timer to an 8-10 round timer before some reinforcements find their way in.

Speaking of Traps. Stone Spike Growth (I always get the name of this spell wrong) is a Druid spell. You can set up patches of Stone Spikes. They count as a magical trap, DC is pretty high to even spot it. These and caltrops used correctly can certainly be a pain in the bottom to invisible characters. Or pain in the foots. Either or.